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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> on 2005/05/11 15:37:39 UTC
Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please
review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going
to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I
believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone
working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like
to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and
the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that
they are willing to work with us on it.
Thanks,
dims
[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c3923A844-DEC5-4CC2-ADED-B1F144BB6AF5@apache.org%3e
[2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F@apache.org%3e
[3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c19e0530f0505101129792069c4@mail.gmail.com%3e
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 11, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
>
> Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries.
I read this thread and am going to personally punt for now.
I think that we can - for now - work with GNE Classpath through a
well-defined interface, and let users just go download both.
Our intention here is to *not* get hung up on the license issues, but
focus on the technology. We have "miles to go before we sleep" -
before this becomes an issue - so lets keep working on this, but in
parallel.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
yep. makes sense (dropping board@apache.org, pmc@incubator.apache.org)
-- dims
On 5/12/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> El jue, 12-05-2005 a las 13:08 -0400, Davanum Srinivas escribió:
> > if we use classpath...we will need the 2 kinds of hooks into classpath
> > (see http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/ for the links)
>
> The I guess the statement should rather be:
>
> - code in ASF SVN repository can "import" from classpath jars.
>
> i.e. s/Java//, because the only hooks caring about license dissonance
> would be those from the VMs (which could be written in a number of
> languages) and classpath itself. The VMs could be written in a number of
> languages, including C# or java itself (IBM had such a beastie, IIRC).
>
> Which lends to a natural proposal: put the native code hooks in
> Classpath into a BSDish or PD license, and we have a nice interface for
> different groups (JVM writers, java library writers) to write to,
> meeting there from both directions if needed. WDYT?
>
> Regards (I subscribed today to harmony-dev and have not looked into the
> archives yet, which could make this idea completely redundant. Sorry if
> so.)
> --
> Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
> High Sierra Technology, SLU
>
>
> BodyID:1002374037.2.n.logpart (stored separately)
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
El jue, 12-05-2005 a las 13:08 -0400, Davanum Srinivas escribió:
> if we use classpath...we will need the 2 kinds of hooks into classpath
> (see http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/ for the links)
The I guess the statement should rather be:
- code in ASF SVN repository can "import" from classpath jars.
i.e. s/Java//, because the only hooks caring about license dissonance
would be those from the VMs (which could be written in a number of
languages) and classpath itself. The VMs could be written in a number of
languages, including C# or java itself (IBM had such a beastie, IIRC).
Which lends to a natural proposal: put the native code hooks in
Classpath into a BSDish or PD license, and we have a nice interface for
different groups (JVM writers, java library writers) to write to,
meeting there from both directions if needed. WDYT?
Regards (I subscribed today to harmony-dev and have not looked into the
archives yet, which could make this idea completely redundant. Sorry if
so.)
--
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Santiago,
if we use classpath...we will need the 2 kinds of hooks into classpath
(see http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/ for the links)
thanks,
dims
On 5/12/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> El jue, 12-05-2005 a las 11:07 -0400, Davanum Srinivas escribió:
> > - Java code in ASF SVN repository can "import" from classpath jars.
>
> AFAICT, this is irrelevant for Java code, as classpath public interface
> strives to be just java.* and javax.*, and thus, we would be importing
> the same classes that if we use IBM or Sun JRE, i.e. even if classpath
> was a pure GPL project we would not be doing any derivative work by
> using it at runtime (if deployed independently). I remember discussion
> on this issue WRT jdbc GPL/LGPL drivers in the past. Conclusion was
> that, as calling just javax.jdbc.* namespace would make it safe any
> non-redistributing use.
>
> (You could be meaning we will be using private classpath calls, but this
> does not look healthy for cross-compatibility with other JVM
> implementations)
>
> OTOH, writing or modifying the primitives that classpath uses to
> interface with the jvm is a tougher matter WRT licensing, etc.
>
> Regards
> --
> Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
> High Sierra Technology, SLU
>
>
> BodyID:1002229274.2.n.logpart (stored separately)
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Dear Greg, Noel,
If my following statements are not correct. Please correct me ASAP.
Folks,
For now the situation is as follows (till someone takes a step, from
ASF side or FSF side):
- No one can check-in classpath jars or sources into Apache's SVN repo.
- Java code in ASF SVN repository can "import" from classpath jars.
- Classpath jars can't be part of the download/install image of Harmony.
I guess, it gives us a narrow sliver to continue working till someone
takes a step forward. which could be in a number of creative ways on
both sides. I believe i've listed some possibilities in previous
emails. others are welcome to chime in with other ideas as well.
thanks,
dims
On 5/12/05, Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dims,
>
> The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed
> under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special
> exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very
> simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no
> hidden "gotchas" to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc.
>
> This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would
> like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to
> make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm
> unclear on what that resolution could propose for change.
>
> Any resolution will not be deferred to "the next board", but it will be
> discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If
> you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can
> make it happen.
>
> Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my
> understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the
> GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software,
> you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more
> constraining that our Apache License).
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:59:58AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Greg, Noel,
> >
> > Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this?
> > We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and
> > feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling
> > on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office.
> >
> > On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
> > >
> > > Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> > > like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
> > > problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please
> > > review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going
> > > to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I
> > > believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone
> > > working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like
> > > to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and
> > > the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that
> > > they are willing to work with us on it.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > dims
> > >
> > > [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c3923A844-DEC5-4CC2-ADED-B1F144BB6AF5@apache.org%3e
> > > [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F@apache.org%3e
> > > [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c19e0530f0505101129792069c4@mail.gmail.com%3e
> > > --
> > > Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Thanks a ton Greg...Now its time for FSF folks to chime in with a legal opinion.
-- dims
CC'ing licensing@gnu.org as per dalibor on #classpath
On 5/12/05, Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dims,
>
> The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed
> under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special
> exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very
> simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no
> hidden "gotchas" to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc.
>
> This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would
> like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to
> make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm
> unclear on what that resolution could propose for change.
>
> Any resolution will not be deferred to "the next board", but it will be
> discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If
> you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can
> make it happen.
>
> Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my
> understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the
> GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software,
> you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more
> constraining that our Apache License).
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:59:58AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Greg, Noel,
> >
> > Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this?
> > We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and
> > feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling
> > on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office.
> >
> > On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
> > >
> > > Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> > > like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
> > > problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please
> > > review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going
> > > to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I
> > > believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone
> > > working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like
> > > to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and
> > > the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that
> > > they are willing to work with us on it.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > dims
> > >
> > > [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c3923A844-DEC5-4CC2-ADED-B1F144BB6AF5@apache.org%3e
> > > [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F@apache.org%3e
> > > [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c19e0530f0505101129792069c4@mail.gmail.com%3e
> > > --
> > > Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Yep Agreed.
-- dims
On 5/12/05, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> (harmony specific - back to this list only)
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> >Ben,
> >
> >Once we get past that problem, we have to get an ok for provining a
> >single bundle. I think 2 downloads to get a working JVM (say on M$
> >platform) is to say it mildly...crazy.
> >
> >
> While it is great to see everyone continue to work through the licensing
> issues, and that should definitely continue, I don't see the "2
> downloads" as a big issue until there is the other 1 download :)
>
> I believe there will be a fair bit of time to sort out those license
> issues, and decide whether to use classpath, use something else, or
> write it from scratch/donation between now and when this actually
> becomes important.
>
> As I mentioned on IRC the other day, early adopters are not going to
> find it a big deal to download a class library separately, and more than
> likely they already have rt.jar on their system and can (as I understand
> it) quite legally drop that in on their machine to test out the ApacheVM
> or whatever it happens to be. I did it the other day with Kaffe when
> classpath didn't compile on cygwin. That I can see happening - the
> converse, not so.
>
> I realise its kind of early in the life of the project in the wild, but
> I think it would be important for there to be some focus on getting
> something out sooner, and it seems obvious to me that most of the
> interest here is on VM related work so far. To some extent I guess this
> is because there isn't a lot of room to innovate in the class libraries,
> but I think the point is still valid.
>
> I defnitely think 2 downloads would suck for a final product - but
> that's down the track a ways. I understand its going to need a lot of
> leg work and will take time, it just (to me) seems like there is a bit
> of panic surrounding getting it resolved, where I think the community
> would be better off getting focused and working on planning the VM side
> of things.
>
> My $A0.02 :)
>
> Cheers,
> Brett
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
(harmony specific - back to this list only)
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>Ben,
>
>Once we get past that problem, we have to get an ok for provining a
>single bundle. I think 2 downloads to get a working JVM (say on M$
>platform) is to say it mildly...crazy.
>
>
While it is great to see everyone continue to work through the licensing
issues, and that should definitely continue, I don't see the "2
downloads" as a big issue until there is the other 1 download :)
I believe there will be a fair bit of time to sort out those license
issues, and decide whether to use classpath, use something else, or
write it from scratch/donation between now and when this actually
becomes important.
As I mentioned on IRC the other day, early adopters are not going to
find it a big deal to download a class library separately, and more than
likely they already have rt.jar on their system and can (as I understand
it) quite legally drop that in on their machine to test out the ApacheVM
or whatever it happens to be. I did it the other day with Kaffe when
classpath didn't compile on cygwin. That I can see happening - the
converse, not so.
I realise its kind of early in the life of the project in the wild, but
I think it would be important for there to be some focus on getting
something out sooner, and it seems obvious to me that most of the
interest here is on VM related work so far. To some extent I guess this
is because there isn't a lot of room to innovate in the class libraries,
but I think the point is still valid.
I defnitely think 2 downloads would suck for a final product - but
that's down the track a ways. I understand its going to need a lot of
leg work and will take time, it just (to me) seems like there is a bit
of panic surrounding getting it resolved, where I think the community
would be better off getting focused and working on planning the VM side
of things.
My $A0.02 :)
Cheers,
Brett
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mark Wielaard <ma...@klomp.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 15:10 +0100, Ben Laurie wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Ben,
> >
> > There a few folks who think otherwise w.r.t to the Exception being
> > non-viral. This email was to get an official response from FSF in that
> > regard.
>
> True enough, though I don't think we've had a legal opinion either way.
Just to be clear. What are we exactly asking from whom?
Is there a specific question for the FSF about the current exception
statement that is not clear?
Or are why trying to draft a resolution for the Apache board to accept
the use of GNU Classpath as library under the current GPL + exception
statement?
The idea behind the exception statement we use for GNU Classpath is that
it can be used freely by other projects as is including Apache projects.
It would help if there was a specific point or question FSF legal could
respond to or clarify.
Thanks,
Mark
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Ben,
>
> There a few folks who think otherwise w.r.t to the Exception being
> non-viral. This email was to get an official response from FSF in that
> regard.
True enough, though I don't think we've had a legal opinion either way.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Ben,
There a few folks who think otherwise w.r.t to the Exception being
non-viral. This email was to get an official response from FSF in that
regard.
Once we get past that problem, we have to get an ok for provining a
single bundle. I think 2 downloads to get a working JVM (say on M$
platform) is to say it mildly...crazy.
-- dims
On 5/12/05, Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk> wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> > Dims,
> >
> > The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed
> > under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special
> > exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very
> > simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no
> > hidden "gotchas" to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc.
> >
> > This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would
> > like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to
> > make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm
> > unclear on what that resolution could propose for change.
> >
> > Any resolution will not be deferred to "the next board", but it will be
> > discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If
> > you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can
> > make it happen.
> >
> > Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my
> > understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the
> > GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software,
> > you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more
> > constraining that our Apache License).
>
> Classpath already does have an exception which would permit bundling of
> unrelated s/w without the GPL spreading to it.
>
> As I understand it, this at least means that we can combine ALed code
> with Classpath (of course, I maintain that we can combine ALed code with
> _any_ GPLed code, but the FSF like to disagree), though I agree that our
> current policies would prevent us providing it as part of a bundle.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ben.
>
> --
> http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
>
> "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
> doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> Dims,
>
> The current position of the ASF is that all of our software is licensed
> under the Apache License. No dual licensing, no variations, and no special
> exceptions for any of our codebases. This provides our users with a very
> simple model of licensing. Everything is licensed the same way with no
> hidden "gotchas" to trip up users, distributors, developers, VARs, etc.
>
> This singular licensing model is and will remain in effect. If you would
> like an exception, then you will need to provide a Board resolution to
> make it happen. Given that the Apache License is *very* flexible, I'm
> unclear on what that resolution could propose for change.
>
> Any resolution will not be deferred to "the next board", but it will be
> discussed and voted upon at a board meeting (May 18th or June 22nd). If
> you believe and require that a vote is needed outside of that, then we can
> make it happen.
>
> Regarding the bundling of GPL'd software (e.g. Classpath): my
> understanding is that would require the entire package falls under the
> GPL. Even if an exception is made by the authors of the GPL'd software,
> you would still have an ASF package with a mixed license (which is more
> constraining that our Apache License).
Classpath already does have an exception which would permit bundling of
unrelated s/w without the GPL spreading to it.
As I understand it, this at least means that we can combine ALed code
with Classpath (of course, I maintain that we can combine ALed code with
_any_ GPLed code, but the FSF like to disagree), though I agree that our
current policies would prevent us providing it as part of a bundle.
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Greg, Noel,
Any ETA on when we can get some information from you regarding this?
We are all anxiously waiting. As mentioned we need legal review and
feedback regarding GPL+Exception and we need to get the ball rolling
on getting our concerns cleared with the FSF folks.
Thanks,
dims
PS: *Please* don't make us wait for the next board to take office.
On 5/11/05, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
>
> Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
> problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3]. Please
> review all 3 items and provide guidance on *IF* the pmc/board is going
> to allow us to go futher down this path and under what conditions. I
> believe quite a few of us have built a great rapport with everyone
> working on this from the FSF and other affiliations. Ideally we'd like
> to get some help to review if the the GPL+Exception is acceptable and
> the FSF folks explicitly mentioned on the harmony mailing lists that
> they are willing to work with us on it.
>
> Thanks,
> dims
>
> [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c3923A844-DEC5-4CC2-ADED-B1F144BB6AF5@apache.org%3e
> [2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F@apache.org%3e
> [3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c19e0530f0505101129792069c4@mail.gmail.com%3e
> --
> Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>
>>> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
>>> qualify for a project after all?
>>
>>
>> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>>
>
> Can you give an example?
http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/gump_xref/repo_module.html
look at how many projects ASF code depends on that are not part of apache.
> I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
oh, no, it's never been the case in the java world.
> At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
when? how?
> and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
yes, but lacking dependence on external project is not such a rule, it
would be a foolish to do so.
--
Stefano.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Daniel John Debrunner <dj...@debrunners.com>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>
>>> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
>>> qualify for a project after all?
>>
>>
>> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>>
>
> Can you give an example?
> I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
> At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
> and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
Any product written in Java depends on the third party Java libraries
and JVM.
At least until Harmony is complete.
Dan.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Sven de Marothy <sv...@physto.se>.
On Sun, 2005-05-15 at 22:34 +0200, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Well, I agree that no man is an island. This would be fine if
> the Harmony is going to be the JVM project, rather then J2SE project.
>
> If it will depend for it's core functionality on the code released
> by non-ASF license without giving options to use something else, then
> it might be perceived as 'just a JVM for GNU Classpath'.
> OTOH if it will provide an API for using various classpath
> like libraries without providing its own, then it will still
> be just an JVM.
As far as I can tell, Harmony is a project for creating a J2SE
implementation under the Apache (or compatible) license. Whether that
means building everything from scratch, just the VM, or neither hasn't
been decided.
Yes, you might be percived as 'just a JVM for GNU Classpath'. That's not
likely though. Apache has created quite a buzz with Harmony.
Anyway, what is the alternative then? A lot of people already consider
FOSS JVMs as entirely redundant. 'Just a crappier version of java'.
Unless Harmony manages to be phenomenally successful compared to GNU
Classpath in attracting class-library devs, and manages to catch up with
years of effort by the first release, you're risking being percived as a
crappier version of that, even.
You might also be percived as splintering the free java community.
Now I'm not the one to say what Apache or Harmony wants. I'm just trying
to give advice here. Work with the existing community. Use our code.
Help us both achive our goals. Learn from our mistakes.
One of those mistakes was underestimating the work that goes into
building a full java class library. GCJ and Kaffe had their own class
libraries once too, you know.
> Perhaps I'm totally wrong and just bringing white noise, but IMHO the
> classpath is essential part of any J2SE wannabe project.
I agree it is an essential part. That doesn't seem to be a good argument
for why it can't be an external part though. As was pointed out, there
are plenty of Apache projects with external dependencies.
/Sven
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to work
> with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
>
If you think we'll be able to establish some sort of formal agreement
with GNU Classpath folks, then fine by me.
I don't wish to be seen (like Sven said) as a Java community
splitter :).
I'd like to help anyhow (of course if the initial committee
want's my help at the first place).
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Testing - TCK, mauve, harmony's own test suite?
Posted by Tom Tromey <tr...@redhat.com>.
>>>>> ">" == shudo <sh...@computer.org> writes:
>> Note that I remember Kaffe and GCJ had a test suite good even for JVMs
>> while Mauve is targetted for class libraries.
I think Kaffe has some VM-layer tests. gcj doesn't really have much
here. The best way forward, IMO, is to make a new module in the Mauve
CVS repository and put tests like this here.
Mauve already has a few modules: the main one (class library tests),
jacks (compiler test -- got moved here recently), a module with a few
bytecode verification tests, a module for serialization compatibility
tests, and the 'wonka' module which holds the Acunia visual tester
(tests AWT functionality).
Tom
Re: Testing - TCK, mauve, harmony's own test suite?
Posted by sh...@computer.org.
From: Ricky Clarkson <ri...@gmail.com>
> From informal chat in IRC, Davanum Srinivas (dims) said that each
> committer (not contributor) will sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure
> Agreement) with Sun to be able to use Sun's TCK (Technology
> Compatibility Kit), which is required for Harmony to be certified as
> Java.
> Perhaps it would be better if at least one Harmony committer didn't
> sign the Sun NDA, then they wouldn't have anything to disclose.
It is much better than no-one can access the TCK because we know
whether the runtime has passed the TCK or not.
I have been hoping to test a JIT compiler and could not access the TCK
so far. But once a licensee applied the TCK to the JIT compiler and
report possible problems the JIT has to me. I could guess the reason
of the problems and fixed them.
I do not know how can we notify others of problems found by the TCK
without violating the NDA.
Rob Gingell said to me that it is easy to make J2SE TCK available and
they are preparing for it in 2002, but we have not seen it. There may
be a way to ask or motivate Sun to make the TCK available under a
reasonable relaxed license.
Note that I remember Kaffe and GCJ had a test suite good even for JVMs
while Mauve is targetted for class libraries.
Kazuyuki Shudo shudo@computer.org http://www.shudo.net/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On 16-05-2005 18:18, "Stu Statman" <gu...@att.net> wrote:
> Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ... if
> any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
> Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
> being to get to 1.5?
Probably...there's a few of em reading here...but I suggest asking on the
classpath mailing list, that's what its for :-)
> I did a quick (a *very* quick) spin around the GNU Classpath site, and
> I'm a bit confused by some of the task lists. According to one URL
> (http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/tasks.html), they're a few weeks
> away from being done; according to another
> (http://savannah.gnu.org/task/?group=classpath), there are open tasks
> going back years.
Somewhere in the middle. You can run ant, tomcat, eclipse and some other
stuff using classpath. They've got really big chunks (ie swing, corba, iiuc)
that are in need of loads of work. Mark Wielaard (one of the main classpath
devs) wrote some e-mails about this to this list just a few days ago; check
the archives.
> It would be nice to get the nickel tour, giving the lay of the land, an
> explanation of who the players are, of where volunteers are most needed,
> of how 1.5 code gets submitted. I don't think it's in anybody's
> interests for a bunch of new devs who don't know the internal culture of
> GNU Classpath to storm in and start tromping around.
I think they'd like that actually. Might tell you to RTFM a little, because
the answers are actually in their FAQ ;). Note the classpath people do a lot
over irc (#classpath on freenode).
>> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to, we
>> couldn't because of the license.
>
> What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under
> GPL+Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception "good enough"?
I just wrote an e-mail on that (or, several)! We'll give a better answer in
a few weeks/months/how long it takes.
Cheers!
Leo
Intro to Classpath
Posted by Sven de Marothy <sv...@physto.se>.
On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 09:18 -0700, Stu Statman wrote:
> Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ... if
> any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
> Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
> being to get to 1.5?
Sure. The quickest way to get a general picture is the API comparison:
http://www.kaffe.org/~stuart/japi/htmlout/h-jdk14-classpath.html
Showing how much of the API is implemented (In general, methods stubs
are not allowed in Classpath, so this is a fairly accurate view)
(Sorry, no comparison against 1.5 is available yet)
The parts which immediately stand out are CORBA (although work on this
has finally gotten started recently) and javax.sound (which is available
from the Tritonus project, which we're working on trying to integrate
with Classpath).
Apart from that AWT and Swing are the most important missing parts,
which need a lot more love :) We do have a generics-branch of our tree
working on 1.5-related stuff, too. (E.g. most of the work moving
container classes to generics has been done) New methods and such for
1.5 that don't break binary compatibility are allowed into the main tree
though.
Personally I'd say 1.5 may be realistic in maybe 1.5-2 years at our
current pace. But that pace is also quickening, and with Harmony's help,
who knows?
> I did a quick (a *very* quick) spin around the GNU Classpath site,
Yeah, it sucks, doesn't it? :) We're too busy hacking I guess.
> and I'm a bit confused by some of the task lists. According to one URL
> (http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/tasks.html), they're a few weeks
> away from being done;
Right, well that task list is pretty much outdated and disued now.
Although it isn't a 'schedule' of when things will be done, just
suggestions of things which need doing.
> according to another
> (http://savannah.gnu.org/task/?group=classpath), there are open tasks
> going back years.
Yeah.. that one hasn't worked out well either. Only the latest tasks
there (mostly CORBA-related) are really relevant. The rest should really
be deleted, IMHO. People haven't been following-up on them.
> It would be nice to get the nickel tour, giving the lay of the land, an
> explanation of who the players are, of where volunteers are most needed,
> of how 1.5 code gets submitted.
Ok, well first off everyone should read the Hacker's guide:
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/docs/hacking.html
And probably the 'Classpath First Steps' wiki:
http://developer.classpath.org/mediation/ClasspathFirstSteps
I put a real quick-and-dirty guide on how to get started here:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/2005-05/msg00040.html
It does take a while before you learn your way around the code, but the
easiest way to get started is to work on something which is pure Java
and not worry about the native bits and bobs.
In the classpath source directory you've got the java/ and javax/
directories with the sources for the public class libraries in them. If
they need supporting classes and such, those go in gnu/, e.g. the
private implementation classes for package java.foo.bar are in
gnu/foo/bar. Adding a java class is as simple as that; no changes to the
build scripts required. Adding native bits does though.
Ok, so key players? We don't really have any designated roles, but Mark
Wielaard and Tom Tromey are the head honchos. Thomas Fitzsimmons is the
main guy for AWT/Swing issues. Chris Burdess, XML. Casey Marshall,
crypto. Audrius Meškauskas, CORBA. Roman Kennke, Swing.
Note that I'm intentionally leaving out a big bunch of major
contributors here, (so no offense, folks!). These are just the ones
who's 'area of responsibility' is easily characterizable to me.
Best thing to do is to refer to the mailing list or drop in on
#classpath on IRC (freenode.net) and simply ask if someone's hacking on
something. IRC is also a good way to get to know the folks involved.
There is certainly lots to do.. Lemme throw out some varied suggestions,
here:
* Composite contexts for Java2D (from the Tasks list above) is still not
implemented. (we have compositing in our AWT implementation, but a
pure-java implementation is really needed too). This is relatively easy.
* More character sets for java NIO.
A list of the supporter character sets in the JDK is here:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/intl/encoding.doc.html
We've got a big number, but still need more. (sources in
gnu/java/nio/charset) Difficulty from easy to intermediate depending on
the charset.
* awt.image needs more work in general. Requires knowledge of Java2D.
* Complete the imageio framework (may require the above first)
* We have AWT peers using the new Cairo library (www.cairographics.org).
These need improvement. Although this might need to wait until Cairo is
more stable.
* Currently our AWT peers (interface to the native GUI) are built on
GTK. This doesn't mean we don't want to support other toolkits and/or
platforms. KDE, OS X, Windows, etc. This is a rather large task.
Requires knowledge of the target platform (of course) and JNI.
* Providers for more crypto algorithms: Elliptic curve public-key
algorithms, Kerberos, and such.
* A security audit in general is really needed.
* Write a service-provider for javax.print (and complete that framework)
* Fix bugs, improve code, implement missing methods, etc all over the
place :)
* Writing docs, and:
* Testing and bug reporting, writing tests for the
(http://sources.redhat.com/mauve/) testsuite is of course needed.
Writing the tests is very simple. This doesn't require clean-roomness or
FSF-assignment.
> I don't think it's in anybody's interests for a bunch of new devs who
> don't know the internal culture of
> GNU Classpath to storm in and start tromping around.
It's no problem, just ask questions. :) IRC with its informal
'atmosphere' is excellent for newbie questions.
> What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under
> GPL+Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception "good enough"?
The goal, AFAICT, is for Harmony to be able to use GNU Classpath. What
that means nobody seems to know :)
/Sven
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Tom Tromey <tr...@redhat.com>.
>>>>> "Stu" == Stu Statman <gu...@att.net> writes:
Stu> Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ...
Stu> if any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
Stu> Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
Stu> being to get to 1.5?
You can see nightly reports here:
http://www.kaffe.org/~stuart/japi/
This doesn't show everything -- japi hasn't been updated for the 1.5
features, so it won't say whether a class needs to be genericized.
Still, a lot of this has been done, in particular java.util.
Stu> It would be nice to get the nickel tour, giving the lay of the land,
Stu> an explanation of who the players are, of where volunteers are most
Stu> needed, of how 1.5 code gets submitted. I don't think it's in
Stu> anybody's interests for a bunch of new devs who don't know the
Stu> internal culture of GNU Classpath to storm in and start tromping
Stu> around.
There should be a fair amount of info about the development processes
on the Classpath web site.
The usual process is: write a patch, including a ChangeLog entry, then
send it all to the classpath-patches list. For best results, also
write a test for inclusion in Mauve. You'll need to go through the
FSF paperwork process for anything that isn't completely trivial (this
is easy).
Someone will check your patch in, or discuss it with you. Do this for
a while and you're likely to get cvs commit access. In general, bug
fixes and new classes/packages/etc can just go in without discussion;
for more controversial stuff it is better to discuss first.
1.5 changes go on the 'generics branch', just put '[generics]' in the
Subject.
Development proceeds (as with Apache I suppose) according to each
developer's interest. Lately those of us at Red Hat have mostly been
working to get some specific big java applications working: eclipse,
tomcat, ant, their many dependencies, jonas, and OO.o. This mostly
seems to mean bug fixing and minor additions here and there.
Tom
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Luis Sanabria <lu...@gmail.com>.
You can get an idea of the status of the project by checking the
"Classpath::Status" section in the home page
(http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/).
Regarding the work for Java 5.0, you can check the following page:
(http://developer.classpath.org/mediation/ClasspathDecisionsPage#head-56ff13c4b7f52b8583537864d6829087cf152c7f)
Hope this helps!
On 5/16/05, Stu Statman <gu...@att.net> wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > On May 16, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Stu Statman wrote:
> >
> >> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >>
> >>> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to work
> >>> with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
> >>
> >> Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen
> >> within and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an
> >> intent to fork?
> >
> >
> > Right now, I see nothing else out there, so yah, we can use GNU
> > Classpath :)
>
> Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ... if
> any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
> Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
> being to get to 1.5?
>
> I did a quick (a *very* quick) spin around the GNU Classpath site, and
> I'm a bit confused by some of the task lists. According to one URL
> (http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/tasks.html), they're a few weeks
> away from being done; according to another
> (http://savannah.gnu.org/task/?group=classpath), there are open tasks
> going back years.
>
> It would be nice to get the nickel tour, giving the lay of the land, an
> explanation of who the players are, of where volunteers are most needed,
> of how 1.5 code gets submitted. I don't think it's in anybody's
> interests for a bunch of new devs who don't know the internal culture of
> GNU Classpath to storm in and start tromping around.
>
> > I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to, we
> > couldn't because of the license.
>
> What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under
> GPL+Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception "good enough"?
>
> Stu Statman
>
>
Re: Testing - TCK, mauve, harmony's own test suite?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 17, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>> From informal chat in IRC, Davanum Srinivas (dims) said that each
>>
> committer (not contributor) will sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure
> Agreement) with Sun to be able to use Sun's TCK (Technology
> Compatibility Kit), which is required for Harmony to be certified as
> Java.
Yes
>
> He also said that each contributor (not committer) will be able to
> test their patches against Harmony's own test cases and against mauve.
Right - we should use Mauve, and help continue to develop and "flesh
out" Mauve.
>
> This would mean, I think, that Harmony/mauve would duplicate Sun's
> TCK.
Maybe. The TCK is available under very restrictive licensing, and
*must* be licensed and passed to be considered "Java". I'm fine with
that.
OTOH, we want people who don't want to get involved with the TCK to
be able to ensure that their fixes/patches/enhancements don't break
things, and they can use Mauve to be sure (and others can double-
check w/t he TCK)
>
> First of all, it seems undesirable to duplicate Sun's TCK, and it
> seems difficult to make sure that this is legal.
Nope - anyone can create any kind of test suite they want. Just
don't call it the TCK, and just don't claim that anything that passes
said test suite is "Java" or "J2SE" or compatible.
>
> If all the Harmony committers sign a Sun NDA, will that mean that any
> test cases they write for Harmony or mauve will be suspect, on IP
> (Intellectual Property) grounds?
Well, this is the same problem we have w/ people exposed to the
various distributions of src that is out there. Further, Sun
distributes the TCK under the JRL, which tries to be clear in saying
that unassisted memory is ok to work from. That doesn't prevent
copyright or patent violation, but you have that problem anyway.
>
> Perhaps it would be better if at least one Harmony committer didn't
> sign the Sun NDA, then they wouldn't have anything to disclose.
>
or more :)
> Further, it seems undesirable that a normal contributer (not
> committer) shouldn't be able to test their patches against the TCK,
> which is what you'd expect the committers to do before committing.
Well, we'd like to come up w/ a mechanical process that keeps a
firewall between non-signers, and the TCK, yet still providing useful
information to the community for purposes of development.
>
> Would it be possible/advisable to provide an interface to the TCK that
> a normal developer could use, without the Sun NDA (which I haven't
> read) being breached, e.g., a web page. Even if that was legal,
> technically it would be damn hard, because of security considerations,
> etc. Part of the 'etc' would be time; can part of the TCK be run,
> rather than the whole thing? I'd imagine the answer would be yes, but
> the method to do it might be laborious.
Well, no - you could imagine a CI system where on checkin, a binary
is created and a test run started... failure would be communicated in
some clean way. The work will be in the details, of course.
>
> Is the Sun NDA publically available, or is it subject to the Sun
> NDA? ;)
There is no Sun NDA here - this is an NDA w/ Apache, as Apache is the
licensor of such materials. This keeps people out of any
relationship with Sun - and only w/ Apache.
>
> Is the TCK's own licence under review at all, i.e., will it ever
> become free?
You'll have to ask Sun.
>
> While we're on a testing thread, what will Harmony's own test
> suite/cases use/look like?
Hopfully robust and complete :)
geir
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Testing - TCK, mauve, harmony's own test suite?
Posted by Ricky Clarkson <ri...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
>From informal chat in IRC, Davanum Srinivas (dims) said that each
committer (not contributor) will sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure
Agreement) with Sun to be able to use Sun's TCK (Technology
Compatibility Kit), which is required for Harmony to be certified as
Java.
He also said that each contributor (not committer) will be able to
test their patches against Harmony's own test cases and against mauve.
This would mean, I think, that Harmony/mauve would duplicate Sun's TCK.
First of all, it seems undesirable to duplicate Sun's TCK, and it
seems difficult to make sure that this is legal.
If all the Harmony committers sign a Sun NDA, will that mean that any
test cases they write for Harmony or mauve will be suspect, on IP
(Intellectual Property) grounds?
Perhaps it would be better if at least one Harmony committer didn't
sign the Sun NDA, then they wouldn't have anything to disclose.
Further, it seems undesirable that a normal contributer (not
committer) shouldn't be able to test their patches against the TCK,
which is what you'd expect the committers to do before committing.
Would it be possible/advisable to provide an interface to the TCK that
a normal developer could use, without the Sun NDA (which I haven't
read) being breached, e.g., a web page. Even if that was legal,
technically it would be damn hard, because of security considerations,
etc. Part of the 'etc' would be time; can part of the TCK be run,
rather than the whole thing? I'd imagine the answer would be yes, but
the method to do it might be laborious.
Is the Sun NDA publically available, or is it subject to the Sun NDA? ;)
Is the TCK's own licence under review at all, i.e., will it ever become free?
While we're on a testing thread, what will Harmony's own test
suite/cases use/look like?
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 16, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Stu Statman wrote:
>
> What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under GPL
> +Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception "good enough"?
We are looking at what the GPL+Exception actually means in another
effort that we have going on between the FSF and the ASF regarding
licensing matters in general.
We'll report back as things develop, but for now....
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Stu Statman <gu...@att.net>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On May 16, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Stu Statman wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to work
>>> with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
>>
>> Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen
>> within and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an
>> intent to fork?
>
>
> Right now, I see nothing else out there, so yah, we can use GNU
> Classpath :)
Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ... if
any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
being to get to 1.5?
I did a quick (a *very* quick) spin around the GNU Classpath site, and
I'm a bit confused by some of the task lists. According to one URL
(http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/tasks.html), they're a few weeks
away from being done; according to another
(http://savannah.gnu.org/task/?group=classpath), there are open tasks
going back years.
It would be nice to get the nickel tour, giving the lay of the land, an
explanation of who the players are, of where volunteers are most needed,
of how 1.5 code gets submitted. I don't think it's in anybody's
interests for a bunch of new devs who don't know the internal culture of
GNU Classpath to storm in and start tromping around.
> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to, we
> couldn't because of the license.
What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under
GPL+Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception "good enough"?
Stu Statman
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Ricky Clarkson <ri...@gmail.com>.
I thought GPL+Exception was fine to fork..
On 16/05/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On May 16, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Stu Statman wrote:
>
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >
> >> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to
> >> work with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
> >>
> >
> > Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen
> > within and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an
> > intent to fork?
>
> Right now, I see nothing else out there, so yah, we can use GNU
> Classpath :)
>
> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
> we couldn't because of the license.
>
> >
> > Stu
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Rodrigo Kumpera <ku...@gmail.com>.
The free JVMs based on it ether use vanilla Classpath or have some
custization for some key classes.
Making it plugable a layer above it's VM interface will be a nightmare to
mantain. Maybe if you can point to a use-case where the might make any
sense, many here will think positively about.
Rodrigo
On 5/16/05, usman bashir <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But !
> if u people dont mind (dont take me splitter again ;) ) then i would say
> while considering Classpath for library we should design in such a way
> that
> if some one want to replace with its own (his own wish thats what OSS is )
> then he can do it easily. (and i hope follwowing the TCK it could be
> accomplish too as well )
>
> On 5/16/05, S. Meslin-Weber <st...@tangency.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Geir,
> >
> > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > >
> > > I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
> > > we couldn't because of the license.
> > >
> >
> > Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath is
> > GPL+Exception and does not prohibit forking.
> >
> > I believe you are saying that "forking and relicensing under an Apache
> > license" isn't currently feasible. The forking block is merely a license
> > incompatibility in this context (and has a separate discussion).
> >
> > I think that when referring to "the license" or "the licenses" we should
> > be more clear as to which licenses we mean otherwise we run the risk of
> > confusing those unfamiliar with current context.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Steph
> >
> > --
> > ================================================================
> > Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: steph@tangency.co.uk
> > Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk
> > ================================================================
> >
> >
> > BodyID:55162909.2.n.logpart (stored separately)
> >
> >
>
> --
> Usman Bashir
> Certified IBM XML Solution Developer
> Certified UML Developer
> Brainbench Certified Internet Perfessional[advance](BCIP)
> Brainbench Certified Java Perfessional (BCJP)
> Brainbench Certified .NET Perfessional
> Brainbench Ceritified C++ Perfessional (BCCP)
> Software engineer IT24
> Faculty Member Operation Badar Lahore
>
>
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 16, 2005, at 3:59 PM, usman bashir wrote:
> But !
> if u people dont mind (dont take me splitter again ;) ) then i
> would say
> while considering Classpath for library we should design in such a
> way that
> if some one want to replace with its own (his own wish thats what
> OSS is )
> then he can do it easily. (and i hope follwowing the TCK it could be
> accomplish too as well )
>
Yes - that's the goal of having a standard interface between the VM
and the class library.
geir
> On 5/16/05, S. Meslin-Weber <st...@tangency.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Geir,
>>
>> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
>>> we couldn't because of the license.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath is
>> GPL+Exception and does not prohibit forking.
>>
>> I believe you are saying that "forking and relicensing under an
>> Apache
>> license" isn't currently feasible. The forking block is merely a
>> license
>> incompatibility in this context (and has a separate discussion).
>>
>> I think that when referring to "the license" or "the licenses" we
>> should
>> be more clear as to which licenses we mean otherwise we run the
>> risk of
>> confusing those unfamiliar with current context.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Steph
>>
>> --
>> ================================================================
>> Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: steph@tangency.co.uk
>> Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk
>> ================================================================
>>
>>
>> BodyID:55162909.2.n.logpart (stored separately)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Usman Bashir
> Certified IBM XML Solution Developer
> Certified UML Developer
> Brainbench Certified Internet Perfessional[advance](BCIP)
> Brainbench Certified Java Perfessional (BCJP)
> Brainbench Certified .NET Perfessional
> Brainbench Ceritified C++ Perfessional (BCCP)
> Software engineer IT24
> Faculty Member Operation Badar Lahore
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by usman bashir <gr...@gmail.com>.
But !
if u people dont mind (dont take me splitter again ;) ) then i would say
while considering Classpath for library we should design in such a way that
if some one want to replace with its own (his own wish thats what OSS is )
then he can do it easily. (and i hope follwowing the TCK it could be
accomplish too as well )
On 5/16/05, S. Meslin-Weber <st...@tangency.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Geir,
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> > I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
> > we couldn't because of the license.
> >
>
> Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath is
> GPL+Exception and does not prohibit forking.
>
> I believe you are saying that "forking and relicensing under an Apache
> license" isn't currently feasible. The forking block is merely a license
> incompatibility in this context (and has a separate discussion).
>
> I think that when referring to "the license" or "the licenses" we should
> be more clear as to which licenses we mean otherwise we run the risk of
> confusing those unfamiliar with current context.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Steph
>
> --
> ================================================================
> Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: steph@tangency.co.uk
> Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk
> ================================================================
>
>
> BodyID:55162909.2.n.logpart (stored separately)
>
>
--
Usman Bashir
Certified IBM XML Solution Developer
Certified UML Developer
Brainbench Certified Internet Perfessional[advance](BCIP)
Brainbench Certified Java Perfessional (BCJP)
Brainbench Certified .NET Perfessional
Brainbench Ceritified C++ Perfessional (BCCP)
Software engineer IT24
Faculty Member Operation Badar Lahore
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 16, 2005, at 8:50 AM, S. Meslin-Weber wrote:
> Hi Geir,
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>
>> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
>> we couldn't because of the license.
>>
>>
>
> Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath is
> GPL+Exception and does not prohibit forking.
Of course, but
a) we don't want to fork
b) if we did, we couldn't put software under that license in the
Apache repository
>
> I believe you are saying that "forking and relicensing under an Apache
> license" isn't currently feasible. The forking block is merely a
> license
> incompatibility in this context (and has a separate discussion).
Yes :)
>
> I think that when referring to "the license" or "the licenses" we
> should
> be more clear as to which licenses we mean otherwise we run the
> risk of
> confusing those unfamiliar with current context.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Steph
>
> --
> ================================================================
> Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: steph@tangency.co.uk
> Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk
> ================================================================
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "S. Meslin-Weber" <st...@tangency.co.uk>.
Hi Geir,
On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
> we couldn't because of the license.
>
Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath is
GPL+Exception and does not prohibit forking.
I believe you are saying that "forking and relicensing under an Apache
license" isn't currently feasible. The forking block is merely a license
incompatibility in this context (and has a separate discussion).
I think that when referring to "the license" or "the licenses" we should
be more clear as to which licenses we mean otherwise we run the risk of
confusing those unfamiliar with current context.
Best Regards,
Steph
--
================================================================
Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: steph@tangency.co.uk
Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk
================================================================
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On May 16, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Stu Statman wrote:
>>
>> Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen
>> within and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an
>> intent to fork?
>
>
> Right now, I see nothing else out there, so yah, we can use GNU
> Classpath :)
>
I saw a lots of affirmative posts from the GNU classpath folks, but
shouldn't we agree on some sort of formal agreement?
IMO the best would be to mutually exchange three developers.
Since seems that each party expressed desire to cooperate,
why not putting that in some sort of formal agreement?
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 16, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Stu Statman wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>
>> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to
>> work with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
>>
>
> Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen
> within and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an
> intent to fork?
Right now, I see nothing else out there, so yah, we can use GNU
Classpath :)
I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
we couldn't because of the license.
>
> Stu
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Stu Statman <gu...@att.net>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to work
> with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
Does this mean that the core classes development work will happen within
and as part of the GNU Classpath project? Or is there an intent to fork?
Stu
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 15, 2005, at 4:34 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On May 12, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
>>
>>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can you give an example?
>>> I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
>>> At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
>>> and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
>>>
>> Huh? This is so incorrect, it's not even wrong....
>> At least in the Java projects, we use *tons* of third-party code
>> for our functionality.
>>
>>
>
> Well, I agree that no man is an island. This would be fine if
> the Harmony is going to be the JVM project, rather then J2SE project.
>
It's a J2SE project.
> If it will depend for it's core functionality on the code released
> by non-ASF license without giving options to use something else, then
> it might be perceived as 'just a JVM for GNU Classpath'.
> OTOH if it will provide an API for using various classpath
> like libraries without providing its own, then it will still
> be just an JVM.
It's a J2SE project :)
Our main target for distribution will be a full J2SE platform. That
doesn't mean we can't include software from elsewhere in the
platform, nor does it mean we can't have other distributables like a
JVM.
>
> Although 'invitation to propose a commit to GNU classpath' sounds
> fine,
> I doubt that such a complex project can be made without a single PMC.
What?
>
>
>
>> While certainly not the initiator, Apache Geronimo is the poster
>> child of this, getting core functionality for it's J2EE mission
>> from outside projects such as OpenEJB, ActiveMQ, MX4J, Jetty, etc...
>>
>>
>
> Sure, but think I read somewhere that GNU code can not be part of ASF
> project (only not as part of a distribution I think).
> So, downloading a J2SE from multiple places?
> Not very user friendly thought.
We're far, far from this point. The fundamental issue I was
addressing is that many projects depend on external 3rd party code.
>
> Also for Geronimo you can easily switch to different JMS, JMX or Web
> layer without your users being worried weather this is still the same
> project.
Yes and no. Not for a certified build of J2EE you can't. But what
you are noting is what I've been trying to say - with a common set of
interfaces for class libraries and other parts, people can do the
same thing with Harmony.
Still, at the end of the day, the software we combine and test for
J2SE must be "fixed". That doesn't mean we can't do multiple based
on different parts, but we still must choose- for any of them - a
fixed set to test and certify as compatible.
>
> Perhaps I'm totally wrong and just bringing white noise, but IMHO the
> classpath is essential part of any J2SE wannabe project.
the classlibrary is. GNU Classpath is something we are going to work
with now, and sort out the license issues in parallel.
geir
>
> Regards,
> Mladen.
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On May 12, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
>
>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>>>
>> Can you give an example?
>> I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
>> At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
>> and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
>
>
> Huh? This is so incorrect, it's not even wrong....
>
> At least in the Java projects, we use *tons* of third-party code for
> our functionality.
>
Well, I agree that no man is an island. This would be fine if
the Harmony is going to be the JVM project, rather then J2SE project.
If it will depend for it's core functionality on the code released
by non-ASF license without giving options to use something else, then
it might be perceived as 'just a JVM for GNU Classpath'.
OTOH if it will provide an API for using various classpath
like libraries without providing its own, then it will still
be just an JVM.
Although 'invitation to propose a commit to GNU classpath' sounds fine,
I doubt that such a complex project can be made without a single PMC.
> While certainly not the initiator, Apache Geronimo is the poster child
> of this, getting core functionality for it's J2EE mission from outside
> projects such as OpenEJB, ActiveMQ, MX4J, Jetty, etc...
>
Sure, but think I read somewhere that GNU code can not be part of ASF
project (only not as part of a distribution I think).
So, downloading a J2SE from multiple places?
Not very user friendly thought.
Also for Geronimo you can easily switch to different JMS, JMX or Web
layer without your users being worried weather this is still the same
project.
Perhaps I'm totally wrong and just bringing white noise, but IMHO the
classpath is essential part of any J2SE wannabe project.
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On May 12, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
>>> qualify for a project after all?
>>>
>> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>>
>>
>
> Can you give an example?
> I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
> At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
> and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
Huh? This is so incorrect, it's not even wrong....
At least in the Java projects, we use *tons* of third-party code for
our functionality.
While certainly not the initiator, Apache Geronimo is the poster
child of this, getting core functionality for it's J2EE mission from
outside projects such as OpenEJB, ActiveMQ, MX4J, Jetty, etc...
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
>> qualify for a project after all?
>
> Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
>
Can you give an example?
I always thought that ASF projects are independent from third-party.
At least the board has been advertising that for ages :),
and each ASF hosted project needs to comply to that basic rule.
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
>> Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
>>
>> Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
>> like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
>> problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3].
>
>
>
> Will something like that make sense at all, even if the license is
> acceptable, and you guys figure out all the legal issues.
>
> GNU Classpath is a project of its own, so I wonder how Harmony as an
> ASF project can be a project after all if depending on another
> project maintained somewhere else?
Uh?
> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
> qualify for a project after all?
Then we need to kick out *a lot* of our top level projects.
> IMHO the ASF has much more transparent OS abstraction layer (APR)
> then either classpath or any other library has. Also developing that
> is less demanding task then JVM/JIT/GC etc... is thought.
that is a different concern.
--
Stefano.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Tom Tromey <tr...@redhat.com>.
>>>>> "Mladen" == Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> writes:
Mladen> IMHO the ASF has much more transparent OS abstraction layer (APR)
Mladen> then either classpath or any other library has. Also developing that
Mladen> is less demanding task then JVM/JIT/GC etc... is thought.
Rewriting Classpath's native code in terms of APR should be trivial
for a motivated someone. We're talking about 10 KLOC as counted by wc.
Tom
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Tom Tromey <tr...@redhat.com>.
>>>>> "Dalibor" == Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org> writes:
>> Mladen Turk wrote:
>> AFAICT, one of the goals is to pass the TCK's, so how can you do that
>> if you don't have a full control over the major part of the package?
Dalibor> In the same way all the other runtimes pass the TCK without having
Dalibor> control over org.w3c, org.xml, Xerces or Xalan.
Dalibor> Sounds weird, I know. But that's the way it is.
My understanding, based on watching the jonas experience from a
distance, is that a binary build is certified. Change the build, lose
the cert. I doubt it matters much where the sources come from, as
long as the build passes.
Tom
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> AFAICT, one of the goals is to pass the TCK's, so how can you do that
> if you don't have a full control over the major part of the package?
In the same way all the other runtimes pass the TCK without having
control over org.w3c, org.xml, Xerces or Xalan.
Sounds weird, I know. But that's the way it is.
cheers,
dalibor topic
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
dropping [board@apache.org, pmc@incubator.apache.org]
See below:
On 5/12/05, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Mladen,
> >
> > there's tons of work for just a JVM. so we will start with that. are u
> > saying that for example Tomcat should not use *ANY* external jars?
>
> You missed the point. JVM without class library is not J2SE. It is
> only JVM. Is the intention to build a JVM or J2SE compatible project?
>
> AFAICT, one of the goals is to pass the TCK's, so how can you do that
> if you don't have a full control over the major part of the package?
>
> Using the GNU Classpath or what ever *ANY* external library is just
> a feature, not a part of the product itself (at least not an J2SE
> compatible product).
Mladen, that's why it was not mentioned in the initial proposal.
Eventually its upto the people who are working on the project to make
the decisions.
> > Yes, we can use APR to do the JVM.
> >
>
> Well, its up to the designers to decide what technology will be used.
> I just think that APR is a great thing for that kind of project.
Yep. you are right. I said *can* and not *should*.
> Regards,
> Mladen.
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Mladen,
>
> there's tons of work for just a JVM. so we will start with that. are u
> saying that for example Tomcat should not use *ANY* external jars?
You missed the point. JVM without class library is not J2SE. It is
only JVM. Is the intention to build a JVM or J2SE compatible project?
AFAICT, one of the goals is to pass the TCK's, so how can you do that
if you don't have a full control over the major part of the package?
Using the GNU Classpath or what ever *ANY* external library is just
a feature, not a part of the product itself (at least not an J2SE
compatible product).
> Yes, we can use APR to do the JVM.
>
Well, its up to the designers to decide what technology will be used.
I just think that APR is a great thing for that kind of project.
Regards,
Mladen.
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Mladen,
there's tons of work for just a JVM. so we will start with that. are u
saying that for example Tomcat should not use *ANY* external jars?
Yes, we can use APR to do the JVM.
-- dims
On 5/12/05, Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
> >
> > Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> > like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
> > problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3].
>
> Will something like that make sense at all, even if the license is
> acceptable, and you guys figure out all the legal issues.
>
> GNU Classpath is a project of its own, so I wonder how Harmony as an
> ASF project can be a project after all if depending on another
> project maintained somewhere else?
>
> If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
> qualify for a project after all?
>
> IMHO the ASF has much more transparent OS abstraction layer (APR)
> then either classpath or any other library has. Also developing that
> is less demanding task then JVM/JIT/GC etc... is thought.
>
> Regards,
> Mladen.
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
Re: Apache Harmony / GNU Classpath
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Dear Board and Incubator PMC,
>
> Please read the Proposal[1] and the FAQ[2] for Apache Harmony. We'd
> like to use GNU Classpath (pure java) for the class libraries. The
> problems the way i see it is documented in this email[3].
Will something like that make sense at all, even if the license is
acceptable, and you guys figure out all the legal issues.
GNU Classpath is a project of its own, so I wonder how Harmony as an
ASF project can be a project after all if depending on another
project maintained somewhere else?
If the entire code base is not inside Apache CVS/SVN then how this
qualify for a project after all?
IMHO the ASF has much more transparent OS abstraction layer (APR)
then either classpath or any other library has. Also developing that
is less demanding task then JVM/JIT/GC etc... is thought.
Regards,
Mladen.