You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Christian Lohmaier <cl...@openoffice.org> on 2011/08/05 02:04:49 UTC
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:24 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I'd like to try and move this particular item to completion.
>
> Reading over the mailing list it is my opinion that their is a
> reasonable consensus for the Apache OpenOffice podling to facilitate
> continuity of service to the OpenOffice.org Community Fourms located at
> http://user.services.openoffice.org by allowing the site:
>
> 1: Continue to use this URL
>
> 2: Host the phpBB web services on an Apache server.
Will topics regarding LibreOffice be accepted on this forum like it is now?
Or will it be apache-OOo exclusive?
ciao
Christian
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
A general comment on mailing list policy at Apache:
On 8/6/2011 4:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Terry Ellison<Te...@ellisons.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
...snip...
>> Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going forward, the people who
>> make the policy decision on the forums are the people who contribute to
>> them. In a 100% community run effort, IFAIK, this is the only formula that
>> will work.
Indeed! This is meritocracy, part of the Apache Way where the
contributors on some part of a project get recognized for their actual
contributions to the project over time, and are elected as committers
(or PPMC members, or are granted moderating rights in a wiki/forum).
There is obviously a lot of work ahead in terms of migrating this
existing community to Apache infrastructure and policies.
...snip...
> In most Apache projects the user support is done on a user mailing
> list. That is how most projects undertake their responsibilities to
> engage with their users. I think we've agreed that because of the
> traffic and number of users we have, that a user forum is the better
> mechanism for doing support. But I think that this support is still a
> project responsibility. That is why we are discussing on a project
> mailing list how we will use Apache hardware to host these forum.
Another saying of the Apache Way is: "if it didn't happen on the list,
it didn't happen". My feeling is that decisions about the project
(code, doc, strategy, whatever) will need to continue to be made on
mailing lists like ooo-dev@, in the Apache tradition.
Given OOo's large number of end-users, I agree with keeping the forums
for actual user support running. I.e. for end-users who can't or
otherwise wouldn't ask on list, we should definitely keep the forums to
be able to provide answers to their end user questions.
A key community issue for moderators/committers will be how to get any
information back to the core project team, here on the lists. I.e. if a
whole bunch of users have issues with the newest language pack for
Apache OOo Foo module, the forum moderators will need to take those
comments back to the ooo-dev@ or appropriate list - or help open JIRAs -
so the project can address the issues.
...snip...
>> Policy issues are discussed here and it is the consensus here that sets
>> policy. So for example we had a long debate on whether to support
>> LibreOffice when the Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile to this. Our
>> strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo community, and so it
>> made sense to do so.
>>
>
> I am concerned with any private list that is not managed by the PPMC,
> like ooo-private or ooo-secruity. This is especially true while we
> are a podling. Mentors and IPMC members should be able to monitor our
> progress as a podling. Having 10+ private discussion groups hinders
> that.
>
> Is there any reason why sensitive matters cannot just be discussed in
> ooo-private? Or alternatively, for security vulnerability-related
> issues, in ooo-security (which is also private)?
Indeed, any private mailing lists need to be hosted on apache
infrastructure and need to allow oversight by PPMC members and ASF
Members[1]. A key Apache policy is that all mailing lists across the
ASF allow ASF Members to read or subscribe. The *only* exceptions are
ones dealing with root@ or private board personnel/legal matters.
If the forum admins will be making policy decisions, either on product
matters or how the forums are run, the PPMC needs to be involved and
approving them.
- Shane
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Terry Ellison <Te...@ellisons.org.uk> wrote:
> On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
>>
>> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
>>
>>> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice derivatives.
>>
>>
>> So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are yet not listed ...
>>
>>
> Eric,
> The short answer is no once has asked or the demand isn't there -- yet. The
> long answer is slightly more complex:
>
> Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going forward, the people who
> make the policy decision on the forums are the people who contribute to
> them. In a 100% community run effort, IFAIK, this is the only formula that
> will work.
>
I'm wary of language that suggests there is only one way of doing
something that will work. There are a lot of creative folks on this
list.
In any Apache project policy decisions are made by the part of the
community that is elected the Project Management Committee. This is
true in areas that the project itself has autonomy. There are other
areas, on the legal, branding and similar side, where we need to
consult with other parts of Apache. The prerogatives of the PMC are a
responsibility. At some point, when we graduate, the Chair of the PMC
will also be an Apache Vice President. This ensures continuity of
responsibility from the project level through the Apache Board of
Directors.
In most Apache projects the user support is done on a user mailing
list. That is how most projects undertake their responsibilities to
engage with their users. I think we've agreed that because of the
traffic and number of users we have, that a user forum is the better
mechanism for doing support. But I think that this support is still a
project responsibility. That is why we are discussing on a project
mailing list how we will use Apache hardware to host these forum.
> We have four of user -- remembering we run 9 national language (NL) forums
> which are largely separate communities.
>
> * per NL forum -- admins (that is within the phpBB application, not
> on the underlying system), though I do all of the admin for most
> forums, since there is a big learning curve here but in terms of
> transactions the load is featherweight.
So 9 phpBB admins total.
> * per NL forum -- moderators who do the active moderation
> * big contributors -- We call these Community Volunteers or just
> Volunteers for short.
And how many total are there here? Presumably at least 9.
> * lastly we have an aggregate in the EN for called NL Adminstrators
> whice every NL admin and moderator is invited to join.
>
>
> On the EN forum we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN - Forum Issues
> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> for discussing policy issues, and one "Site - Forum Administration
> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> for wider admin issues. We do this in English, but members opinions are
> weighted if they are representing an NL consensus (e.g. our committers
> Zoltán Reizinger and Kazunari Hirano represent the HU and JA communities).
> Sorry BTW if you try to access these, but they are closed so that we can be
> more frank amongst ourselves in discussion. Each other NL forum has a
> closed Forum Issues forum to manage its business.
>
So in addition to having 20+ privileged users we have 10+ private
forums. I am concerned with the concentration of power and the
proliferation of titles.
Is there any reason why we could not have a single admin across all
forums? Or even turn that into something that we manage via the
Infrastructure JIRA, for routine requests like creating new forums and
boards?
> Policy issues are discussed here and it is the consensus here that sets
> policy. So for example we had a long debate on whether to support
> LibreOffice when the Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile to this. Our
> strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo community, and so it
> made sense to do so.
>
I am concerned with any private list that is not managed by the PPMC,
like ooo-private or ooo-secruity. This is especially true while we
are a podling. Mentors and IPMC members should be able to monitor our
progress as a podling. Having 10+ private discussion groups hinders
that.
Is there any reason why sensitive matters cannot just be discussed in
ooo-private? Or alternatively, for security vulnerability-related
issues, in ooo-security (which is also private)?
> The issue about supporting any specific product, however, is that you need
> enough active volunteers with knowledge of the specific flavour to credibly
> offer support. I don't think we've reached that threshold for OOo4Kids and
> OOoLight yet.
>
> Terry
>
>
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by TerryE <oo...@ellisons.org.uk>.
<snip>
>
> ... we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN - Forum Issues
> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> for discussing policy issues, and one "Site - Forum Administration
> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> ...
Oops and RED FACE for me. I hate those hidden cookie SIDs that phpBB
occasional hoists to the URI when you paste hyperlinks. This session is
now long gone, so you won't get access. //Terry
RE: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
I think being inviting is a good idea with regard to specialized topics such as this. We should put out the welcome mat for specific ones, such as OOo4Kids, that we know about and especially that we have contributors for.
It does mean there needs to be a place to land for visitors who have that as their goal, and some creativity may be required in serving those who don't find what they are looking for on our pages, forums, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ingrid von der Mehden [mailto:IngridvdM@gmx-topmail.de]
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 01:36
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Am 05.08.2011 22:59, schrieb eric b:
> Hi,
>
>
> Le 5 août 11 à 19:56, Reizinger Zoltán a écrit :
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
>>>> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>
>>> It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of lack
>>> of a champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro has
>>> been, is, a champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the different
>>> forums are not exact copies of each other and indeed the es/forum
>>> explicitly list the two application. I am a little bit surprised that
>>> the forum did not go ahead and open separate sub-pages. Why not, I
>>> have no idea, but I am certain it wasn't because anyone blocked
>>> anything.
>> Why not?
>
>
>> My personal answer no user needs for that:
>> Only 23 post in EN forum, most of them announcement by Eric on new
>> versions:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOo4Kids
>>
>> One post for OOoLight:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOoLight
>>
>> From ~ 38000 posts.
>
>
> My posts cannot be as visible as they were on the main banneer (and we
> didn't announce OOoLight in fact)
>
>
>
>
>> Who use OOo4Kids/OOoLight can help to others, I not know we have such
>> volunteers, but will ask it.
>> OOo4Kids/OOoLight project members can join and help their users on
>> forums.
>
>
>> Until this happens, not useful to can claim on the forums first page
>> that we support OOo4Kids/OOoLight.
>>
>
>
> No doubt this is usefull for us to be visible.
>
> And one more time we hit the chicken egg issue.
>
I agree with Eric here. Having OOo4Kids/OOoLight listed on the first
page would be an invitation to ask question about these flavors of
OpenOffice in the forum also. If this evolves chances are high that more
users are also able to answer special questions regarding these flavors.
Listing only selective few others flavors is an explicit discourage for
users of the not listed ones.
So the question is whether the forum in general aims to be open for the
users of all flavors of OpenOffice? If so it would be wise to state that
explicitly in the forum header.
Kind regards,
Ingrid
>
> Eric Bachard
>
>
>
> P.S. : I have converted your mail into text, since .rtf was apparently
> seen as spam by the server.
>
Re: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at
user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by Ingrid von der Mehden <In...@gmx-topmail.de>.
Am 05.08.2011 22:59, schrieb eric b:
> Hi,
>
>
> Le 5 août 11 à 19:56, Reizinger Zoltán a écrit :
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
>>>> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>
>>> It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of lack
>>> of a champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro has
>>> been, is, a champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the different
>>> forums are not exact copies of each other and indeed the es/forum
>>> explicitly list the two application. I am a little bit surprised that
>>> the forum did not go ahead and open separate sub-pages. Why not, I
>>> have no idea, but I am certain it wasn't because anyone blocked
>>> anything.
>> Why not?
>
>
>> My personal answer no user needs for that:
>> Only 23 post in EN forum, most of them announcement by Eric on new
>> versions:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOo4Kids
>>
>> One post for OOoLight:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOoLight
>>
>> From ~ 38000 posts.
>
>
> My posts cannot be as visible as they were on the main banneer (and we
> didn't announce OOoLight in fact)
>
>
>
>
>> Who use OOo4Kids/OOoLight can help to others, I not know we have such
>> volunteers, but will ask it.
>> OOo4Kids/OOoLight project members can join and help their users on
>> forums.
>
>
>> Until this happens, not useful to can claim on the forums first page
>> that we support OOo4Kids/OOoLight.
>>
>
>
> No doubt this is usefull for us to be visible.
>
> And one more time we hit the chicken egg issue.
>
I agree with Eric here. Having OOo4Kids/OOoLight listed on the first
page would be an invitation to ask question about these flavors of
OpenOffice in the forum also. If this evolves chances are high that more
users are also able to answer special questions regarding these flavors.
Listing only selective few others flavors is an explicit discourage for
users of the not listed ones.
So the question is whether the forum in general aims to be open for the
users of all flavors of OpenOffice? If so it would be wise to state that
explicitly in the forum header.
Kind regards,
Ingrid
>
> Eric Bachard
>
>
>
> P.S. : I have converted your mail into text, since .rtf was apparently
> seen as spam by the server.
>
Re: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by eric b <er...@openoffice.org>.
Hi,
Le 5 août 11 à 19:56, Reizinger Zoltán a écrit :
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
>>> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg
>>> issue .. ).
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of
>> lack of a champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro
>> has been, is, a champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the
>> different forums are not exact copies of each other and indeed the
>> es/forum explicitly list the two application. I am a little bit
>> surprised that the forum did not go ahead and open separate sub-
>> pages. Why not, I have no idea, but I am certain it wasn't because
>> anyone blocked anything.
> Why not?
> My personal answer no user needs for that:
> Only 23 post in EN forum, most of them announcement by Eric on new
> versions:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?
> st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOo4Kids
> One post for OOoLight:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?
> st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOoLight
> From ~ 38000 posts.
My posts cannot be as visible as they were on the main banneer (and
we didn't announce OOoLight in fact)
> Who use OOo4Kids/OOoLight can help to others, I not know we have
> such volunteers, but will ask it.
> OOo4Kids/OOoLight project members can join and help their users on
> forums.
> Until this happens, not useful to can claim on the forums first
> page that we support OOo4Kids/OOoLight.
>
No doubt this is usefull for us to be visible.
And one more time we hit the chicken egg issue.
Eric Bachard
P.S. : I have converted your mail into text, since .rtf was
apparently seen as spam by the server.
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at
user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by David McKay <dm...@btconnect.com>.
On 05/08/11 18:56, Reizinger Zoltán wrote:
> Hi all,
> 2011.08.05. 18:41 keltezéssel, drew írta:
>> On Fri, 2011-08-05 at 14:22 +0200, eric b wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
>>> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of lack of a
>> champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro has been, is, a
>> champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the different forums are not
>> exact copies of each other and indeed the es/forum explicitly list the
>> two application. I am a little bit surprised that the forum did not go
>> ahead and open separate sub-pages. Why not, I have no idea, but I am
>> certain it wasn't because anyone blocked anything.
> Why not?
> My personal answer no user needs for that:
> Only 23 post in EN forum, most of them announcement by Eric on new
> versions:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOo4Kids
>
> One post for OOoLight:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOoLight
>
> From ~ 38000 posts.
>
> Who use OOo4Kids/OOoLight can help to others, I not know we have such
> volunteers, but will ask it.
>
> OOo4Kids/OOoLight project members can join and help their users on
> forums.
>
> Until this happens, not useful to can claim on the forums first page
> that we support OOo4Kids/OOoLight.
>
> Regards,
> Zoltan
+1
>
>> It's quite likely
>> that if that had happened and the pages showed activity other forums
>> would of taken notice.
>>
>> Of course there is always a new day in front of us.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> drew
>>
>>
>
>
Re: OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at
user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
Hi all,
2011.08.05. 18:41 keltezéssel, drew írta:
> On Fri, 2011-08-05 at 14:22 +0200, eric b wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
>> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
> Hi Eric,
>
> It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of lack of a
> champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro has been, is, a
> champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the different forums are not
> exact copies of each other and indeed the es/forum explicitly list the
> two application. I am a little bit surprised that the forum did not go
> ahead and open separate sub-pages. Why not, I have no idea, but I am
> certain it wasn't because anyone blocked anything.
Why not?
My personal answer no user needs for that:
Only 23 post in EN forum, most of them announcement by Eric on new versions:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOo4Kids
One post for OOoLight:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=OOoLight
From ~ 38000 posts.
Who use OOo4Kids/OOoLight can help to others, I not know we have such
volunteers, but will ask it.
OOo4Kids/OOoLight project members can join and help their users on forums.
Until this happens, not useful to can claim on the forums first page
that we support OOo4Kids/OOoLight.
Regards,
Zoltan
> It's quite likely
> that if that had happened and the pages showed activity other forums
> would of taken notice.
>
> Of course there is always a new day in front of us.
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks,
>
> drew
>
>
OOo4Kids / OOoLight support ( Re: Migrating the web forums at
user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Fri, 2011-08-05 at 14:22 +0200, eric b wrote:
<snip>
>
> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
Hi Eric,
It's hard to disagree with that - I'd just add, it's a case of lack of a
champion versus blocking. In the Spanish forum Alexandro has been, is, a
champion for OOo4Kids/OOoLight. Notice that the different forums are not
exact copies of each other and indeed the es/forum explicitly list the
two application. I am a little bit surprised that the forum did not go
ahead and open separate sub-pages. Why not, I have no idea, but I am
certain it wasn't because anyone blocked anything. It's quite likely
that if that had happened and the pages showed activity other forums
would of taken notice.
Of course there is always a new day in front of us.
<snip>
Thanks,
drew
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by Terry Ellison <Te...@ellisons.org.uk>.
Eric,
A quick overall response. You have accounts on the EN and FR forums.
Why not raise this as a general issue on the EN forums? I am sure that
the guys/gals would be willing to support this broadening if it's clear
that we can find volunteers who have the knowledge and are willing put
the time in to answer Qs on these forks.
However, you are also raising a wider point that if the move to Apache
is going to reflect a policy change reaching out rather than distancing
from the wider OOo family and forks, then that is a whole topic in its
own right and far wider than just forum support.
In fact as a general asset, our (OOo Forums) community probably brings a
lot of pragmatic knowledge on how to set up and to run community
forums. We should be willing to share that knowledge.
On the admin side, we've set up 9 forums in a very scalable way and done
a lot to make them zero admin. Adding another for another Apache
project if wanted is pretty trivial. There are also probably a dozen
people with in-depth moderation experience who might be willing to
provide consultancy here.
Regards Terry
> Hi Terry,
>
> Le 5 août 11 à 12:08, Terry Ellison a écrit :
>
>> On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice derivatives.
>>>
>>>
>>> So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are yet not listed ...
>>>
>>>
>> Eric,
>> The short answer is no once has asked or the demand isn't there --
>> yet. The long answer is slightly more complex:
>>
>
>
> I tend to disagree with your short answer.
>
>
>
>> Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going forward, the
>> people who make the policy decision on the forums are the people who
>> contribute to them. In a 100% community run effort, IFAIK, this is
>> the only formula that will work.
>>
>
> [...cut...]
>
>
>>
>> On the EN forum we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN - Forum Issues
>> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
>> for discussing policy issues, and one "Site - Forum Administration
>> <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
>> for wider admin issues. We do this in English, but members opinions
>> are weighted if they are representing an NL consensus (e.g. our
>> committers Zoltán Reizinger and Kazunari Hirano represent the HU and
>> JA communities).
>
>
> Reading what you wrote, I now understand better why OOo4Kids and
> OOoLight have no visibility in some countries.
>
>
>
>> Sorry BTW if you try to access these, but they are closed so that we
>> can be more frank amongst ourselves in discussion. Each other NL
>> forum has a closed Forum Issues forum to manage its business.
>> Policy issues are discussed here and it is the consensus here that
>> sets policy. So for example we had a long debate on whether to
>> support LibreOffice when the Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile
>> to this. Our strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo
>> community, and so it made sense to do so.
>>
>
>
> When I see OOo Community, I really do not understand the selection
>
> EducOOo, has historicaly been created because of some people blocking
> any initiative coming from the Education Project (the same people
> migrated to TDF since). EducOOo tries to act as an OpenOffice.org lab
> and provided several improvements, who have been reversed/integrated
> into OpenOffice.org (like Impress annotation mode, Equation editor
> improvement and some other like some Linux ARM optimization).
>
> Our main goal is to contribute back to OpenOffice.org. As example,
> since several years, we trained a lot of students around
> OpenOffice.org code, and our actions helped to make OpenOffice.org
> enter in schools in France.
>
> And if you want to compare with other forks, there is (to my
> knowledge) no code reversed by LibreOffice and NeoOffice to
> OpenOffice.org. But that's apparently no problem : they appear in your
> forums.
>
> So, there is something hurting me : OpenOffice.org forks who do not
> reverse any code to OpenOffice.org ARE visible, and OOo4Kids and
> OOoLight, aimed to reverse contributions are not ?
>
> I hope you understand better my point of view now ...
>
>
>> The issue about supporting any specific product, however, is that you
>> need enough active volunteers with knowledge of the specific flavour
>> to credibly offer support.
>
>
> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
> there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
>
> OOo4Kids (and OOoLight) behavior is(are) very close to OpenOffice.org,
> and we mostly hide things (what does not avoid us to invent new
> features). To avoid being a concurrent to OpenOffice.org, we removed
> Basic, and Java.
>
> and there is no problem to maintain and answer questions. More: every
> added feature was the result of an user-designer-developer
> interaction, and the logical of the processus is easy to retrieve. See
> our wiki (http://wiki.ooo4kids.org) , and look at the number of times
> the pages have been acceeed if you prefer.
>
> + you could as well look at the code documentation : some pages have
> been read more than 28, 000 times (without any thank you, though :-/
> ) and translated in several locales.
>
> Some random examples :
>
> French, but extremely informative :
> http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/IdeasAndSuggestions/fr
>
> Toolbars and user level :
> http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/ToolbarsAndUserLevel
> Password protected preferences :
> http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/PasswordProtectedPreferences
> Impress new cursors : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/AddNewCursors
>
>
> As you can see, our role is far over the simple fork idea, and we can
> explain a lot.
>
>
>
>> I don't think we've reached that threshold for OOo4Kids and OOoLight
>> yet.
>
>
> Again, this is the typical chicken-egg issue : we are in the situation
> where some people decide to hide our existence, and claim nobody knows
> us afterwards. What I do not accept.
>
>
> Back to the topic, OOo4Kids is provided for MS Windows, Mac OS and
> Linux, in 17 locales. There is even an OpenBSD port (working well)
> and OOo4Kids alone is close to 1 million of downloads (94% use
> windows, and 45% download the en-US version) !! To be honest, these
> figures are pessimistic, and the number of downloads is a lot more in
> fact, but we limited them to be sure of what we say.
>
> We even provide a (non official) Debian repository, for both OOoLight
> and OOo4Kids
>
> Please verify by yourself : http://download.ooo4kids.org and
> http://download.ooolight.org
>
>
> Following this success, we decided to create educoo.be, educoo.it,
> educoo.es, educoo.no and some other (I don't have all in mind, sorry)
>
> Note: we are searching some volunteers to manage educoo.us and
> educoo.de (looks cyber squatted).
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric Bachard
>
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Posted by "Pedro F. Giffuni" <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Hi Eric;
I agree OOo4Kids and OOolight deserve a space in the forums,
I was not aware about them but they are very interesting and
it's the kind of things we really want to see stronger with
an Apache Project.
Something to think about is if they deserve a special forum
for themselves. You know children and seniors are rather
special and sometimes vulnerable parts of the population
and maybe a single, multilanguage, forum would serve them
well. Just something to think.
cheers,
Pedro.
--- On Fri, 8/5/11, eric b <er...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> From: eric b <er...@openoffice.org>
> Subject: Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 7:22 AM
> Hi Terry,
>
> Le 5 août 11 à 12:08, Terry Ellison a écrit :
>
> > On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
> >>
> >> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
> >>
> >>> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all
> OpenOffice derivatives.
> >>
> >>
> >> So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight
> are yet not listed ...
> >>
> >>
> > Eric,
> > The short answer is no once has asked or the demand
> isn't there -- yet. The long answer is slightly more
> complex:
> >
>
>
> I tend to disagree with your short answer.
>
>
>
> > Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going
> forward, the people who make the policy decision on the
> forums are the people who contribute to them. In a 100%
> community run effort, IFAIK, this is the only formula that
> will work.
> >
>
> [...cut...]
>
>
> >
> > On the EN forum we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN
> - Forum Issues <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> for discussing policy issues, and one "Site - Forum
> Administration <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
> for wider admin issues. We do this in English, but
> members opinions are weighted if they are representing an NL
> consensus (e.g. our committers Zoltán Reizinger and
> Kazunari Hirano represent the HU and JA communities).
>
>
> Reading what you wrote, I now understand better why
> OOo4Kids and OOoLight have no visibility in some countries.
>
>
>
> > Sorry BTW if you try to access these, but they are
> closed so that we can be more frank amongst ourselves in
> discussion. Each other NL forum has a closed Forum
> Issues forum to manage its business.
> > Policy issues are discussed here and it is the
> consensus here that sets policy. So for example we had
> a long debate on whether to support LibreOffice when the
> Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile to this. Our
> strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo
> community, and so it made sense to do so.
> >
>
>
> When I see OOo Community, I really do not understand the
> selection
>
> EducOOo, has historicaly been created because of some
> people blocking any initiative coming from the Education
> Project (the same people migrated to TDF since). EducOOo
> tries to act as an OpenOffice.org lab and provided several
> improvements, who have been reversed/integrated into
> OpenOffice.org (like Impress annotation mode, Equation
> editor improvement and some other like some Linux ARM
> optimization).
>
> Our main goal is to contribute back to OpenOffice.org. As
> example, since several years, we trained a lot of students
> around OpenOffice.org code, and our actions helped to make
> OpenOffice.org enter in schools in France.
>
> And if you want to compare with other forks, there is (to
> my knowledge) no code reversed by LibreOffice and NeoOffice
> to OpenOffice.org. But that's apparently no problem : they
> appear in your forums.
>
> So, there is something hurting me : OpenOffice.org forks
> who do not reverse any code to OpenOffice.org ARE visible,
> and OOo4Kids and OOoLight, aimed to reverse contributions
> are not ?
>
> I hope you understand better my point of view now ...
>
>
> > The issue about supporting any specific product,
> however, is that you need enough active volunteers with
> knowledge of the specific flavour to credibly offer
> support.
>
>
> Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the
> forums, there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the
> chicken egg issue .. ).
>
> OOo4Kids (and OOoLight) behavior is(are) very close to
> OpenOffice.org, and we mostly hide things (what does not
> avoid us to invent new features). To avoid being a
> concurrent to OpenOffice.org, we removed Basic, and Java.
>
> and there is no problem to maintain and answer questions.
> More: every added feature was the result of an
> user-designer-developer interaction, and the logical of the
> processus is easy to retrieve. See our wiki (http://wiki.ooo4kids.org) , and look at the number of
> times the pages have been acceeed if you prefer.
>
> + you could as well look at the code documentation : some
> pages have been read more than 28, 000 times (without any
> thank you, though :-/ ) and translated in several
> locales.
>
> Some random examples :
>
> French, but extremely informative : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/IdeasAndSuggestions/fr
>
> Toolbars and user level : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/ToolbarsAndUserLevel
> Password protected preferences : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/PasswordProtectedPreferences
> Impress new cursors : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/AddNewCursors
>
>
> As you can see, our role is far over the simple fork idea,
> and we can explain a lot.
>
>
>
> > I don't think we've reached that threshold for
> OOo4Kids and OOoLight yet.
>
>
> Again, this is the typical chicken-egg issue : we are in
> the situation where some people decide to hide our
> existence, and claim nobody knows us afterwards. What I do
> not accept.
>
>
> Back to the topic, OOo4Kids is provided for MS Windows, Mac
> OS and Linux, in 17 locales. There is even an OpenBSD
> port (working well) and OOo4Kids alone is close to 1 million
> of downloads (94% use windows, and 45% download the en-US
> version) !! To be honest, these figures are
> pessimistic, and the number of downloads is a lot more
> in fact, but we limited them to be sure of what we say.
>
> We even provide a (non official) Debian repository, for
> both OOoLight and OOo4Kids
>
> Please verify by yourself : http://download.ooo4kids.org and http://download.ooolight.org
>
>
> Following this success, we decided to create educoo.be,
> educoo.it, educoo.es, educoo.no and some other (I don't have
> all in mind, sorry)
>
> Note: we are searching some volunteers to manage
> educoo.us and educoo.de (looks cyber squatted).
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric Bachard
>
> --qɔᴉɹə
> Education Project:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Posted by eric b <er...@openoffice.org>.
Hi Terry,
Le 5 août 11 à 12:08, Terry Ellison a écrit :
> On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
>>
>> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
>>
>>> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice
>>> derivatives.
>>
>>
>> So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are yet not
>> listed ...
>>
>>
> Eric,
> The short answer is no once has asked or the demand isn't there --
> yet. The long answer is slightly more complex:
>
I tend to disagree with your short answer.
> Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going forward, the
> people who make the policy decision on the forums are the people
> who contribute to them. In a 100% community run effort, IFAIK, this
> is the only formula that will work.
>
[...cut...]
>
> On the EN forum we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN - Forum
> Issues <http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?
> f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>" for discussing policy
> issues, and one "Site - Forum Administration <http://
> user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?
> f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>" for wider admin
> issues. We do this in English, but members opinions are weighted
> if they are representing an NL consensus (e.g. our committers
> Zoltán Reizinger and Kazunari Hirano represent the HU and JA
> communities).
Reading what you wrote, I now understand better why OOo4Kids and
OOoLight have no visibility in some countries.
> Sorry BTW if you try to access these, but they are closed so that
> we can be more frank amongst ourselves in discussion. Each other
> NL forum has a closed Forum Issues forum to manage its business.
> Policy issues are discussed here and it is the consensus here that
> sets policy. So for example we had a long debate on whether to
> support LibreOffice when the Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile
> to this. Our strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo
> community, and so it made sense to do so.
>
When I see OOo Community, I really do not understand the selection
EducOOo, has historicaly been created because of some people blocking
any initiative coming from the Education Project (the same people
migrated to TDF since). EducOOo tries to act as an OpenOffice.org lab
and provided several improvements, who have been reversed/integrated
into OpenOffice.org (like Impress annotation mode, Equation editor
improvement and some other like some Linux ARM optimization).
Our main goal is to contribute back to OpenOffice.org. As example,
since several years, we trained a lot of students around
OpenOffice.org code, and our actions helped to make OpenOffice.org
enter in schools in France.
And if you want to compare with other forks, there is (to my
knowledge) no code reversed by LibreOffice and NeoOffice to
OpenOffice.org. But that's apparently no problem : they appear in
your forums.
So, there is something hurting me : OpenOffice.org forks who do not
reverse any code to OpenOffice.org ARE visible, and OOo4Kids and
OOoLight, aimed to reverse contributions are not ?
I hope you understand better my point of view now ...
> The issue about supporting any specific product, however, is that
> you need enough active volunteers with knowledge of the specific
> flavour to credibly offer support.
Let's try a different approach: if the item exists on the forums,
there will be _de_facto_ a support ? (yet the chicken egg issue .. ).
OOo4Kids (and OOoLight) behavior is(are) very close to
OpenOffice.org, and we mostly hide things (what does not avoid us to
invent new features). To avoid being a concurrent to OpenOffice.org,
we removed Basic, and Java.
and there is no problem to maintain and answer questions. More:
every added feature was the result of an user-designer-developer
interaction, and the logical of the processus is easy to retrieve.
See our wiki (http://wiki.ooo4kids.org) , and look at the number of
times the pages have been acceeed if you prefer.
+ you could as well look at the code documentation : some pages have
been read more than 28, 000 times (without any thank you,
though :-/ ) and translated in several locales.
Some random examples :
French, but extremely informative : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/
index.php/IdeasAndSuggestions/fr
Toolbars and user level : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/
ToolbarsAndUserLevel
Password protected preferences : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/
PasswordProtectedPreferences
Impress new cursors : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/AddNewCursors
As you can see, our role is far over the simple fork idea, and we can
explain a lot.
> I don't think we've reached that threshold for OOo4Kids and
> OOoLight yet.
Again, this is the typical chicken-egg issue : we are in the
situation where some people decide to hide our existence, and claim
nobody knows us afterwards. What I do not accept.
Back to the topic, OOo4Kids is provided for MS Windows, Mac OS and
Linux, in 17 locales. There is even an OpenBSD port (working well)
and OOo4Kids alone is close to 1 million of downloads (94% use
windows, and 45% download the en-US version) !! To be honest, these
figures are pessimistic, and the number of downloads is a lot more
in fact, but we limited them to be sure of what we say.
We even provide a (non official) Debian repository, for both OOoLight
and OOo4Kids
Please verify by yourself : http://download.ooo4kids.org and
http://download.ooolight.org
Following this success, we decided to create educoo.be, educoo.it,
educoo.es, educoo.no and some other (I don't have all in mind, sorry)
Note: we are searching some volunteers to manage educoo.us and
educoo.de (looks cyber squatted).
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by Terry Ellison <Te...@ellisons.org.uk>.
On 05/08/11 08:10, eric b wrote:
>
> Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
>
>> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice derivatives.
>
>
> So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are yet not listed ...
>
>
Eric,
The short answer is no once has asked or the demand isn't there -- yet.
The long answer is slightly more complex:
Historically and (possibly with some tweaks) going forward, the people
who make the policy decision on the forums are the people who contribute
to them. In a 100% community run effort, IFAIK, this is the only formula
that will work.
We have four of user -- remembering we run 9 national language (NL)
forums which are largely separate communities.
* per NL forum -- admins (that is within the phpBB application, not
on the underlying system), though I do all of the admin for most
forums, since there is a big learning curve here but in terms of
transactions the load is featherweight.
* per NL forum -- moderators who do the active moderation
* big contributors -- We call these Community Volunteers or just
Volunteers for short.
* lastly we have an aggregate in the EN for called NL Adminstrators
whice every NL admin and moderator is invited to join.
On the EN forum we run two closed sub-forums: one "EN - Forum Issues
<http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=69&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
for discussing policy issues, and one "Site - Forum Administration
<http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=84&sid=da1779e4dd6562bf9cbbc0efd49c1292>"
for wider admin issues. We do this in English, but members opinions are
weighted if they are representing an NL consensus (e.g. our committers
Zoltán Reizinger and Kazunari Hirano represent the HU and JA
communities). Sorry BTW if you try to access these, but they are closed
so that we can be more frank amongst ourselves in discussion. Each
other NL forum has a closed Forum Issues forum to manage its business.
Policy issues are discussed here and it is the consensus here that sets
policy. So for example we had a long debate on whether to support
LibreOffice when the Oracle view seemed to us to be hostile to this.
Our strong consensus was that in reality there is one OOo community, and
so it made sense to do so.
The issue about supporting any specific product, however, is that you
need enough active volunteers with knowledge of the specific flavour to
credibly offer support. I don't think we've reached that threshold for
OOo4Kids and OOoLight yet.
Terry
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Posted by eric b <er...@openoffice.org>.
Le 5 août 11 à 03:12, Pedro Giffuni a écrit :
> Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice derivatives.
So I'm still wondering why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are yet not listed ...
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Pedro Giffuni <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Yes, it will continue to be inclusive for all OpenOffice derivatives.
Cheers,
Pedro.
On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 02:04:49 +0200, Christian Lohmaier
<cl...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:24 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I'd like to try and move this particular item to completion.
>>
>> Reading over the mailing list it is my opinion that their is a
>> reasonable consensus for the Apache OpenOffice podling to facilitate
>> continuity of service to the OpenOffice.org Community Fourms located
>> at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org by allowing the site:
>>
>> 1: Continue to use this URL
>>
>> 2: Host the phpBB web services on an Apache server.
>
> Will topics regarding LibreOffice be accepted on this forum like it
> is now?
>
> Or will it be apache-OOo exclusive?
>
> ciao
> Christian
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by "Manfred A. Reiter" <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hi Christian, *
2011/8/5 Christian Lohmaier <cl...@openoffice.org>:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:24 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I'd like to try and move this particular item to completion.
>>
>> Reading over the mailing list it is my opinion that their is a
>> reasonable consensus for the Apache OpenOffice podling to facilitate
>> continuity of service to the OpenOffice.org Community Fourms located at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org by allowing the site:
>>
>> 1: Continue to use this URL
>>
>> 2: Host the phpBB web services on an Apache server.
>
> Will topics regarding LibreOffice be accepted on this forum like it is now?
>
> Or will it be apache-OOo exclusive?
>
not at all,
even we should see whether we could collaborate on the *users* MLs
and not only on the users@de ML. ;-)
--
## Manfred
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Fri, 2011-08-05 at 02:04 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:24 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I'd like to try and move this particular item to completion.
> >
> > Reading over the mailing list it is my opinion that their is a
> > reasonable consensus for the Apache OpenOffice podling to facilitate
> > continuity of service to the OpenOffice.org Community Fourms located at
> > http://user.services.openoffice.org by allowing the site:
> >
> > 1: Continue to use this URL
> >
> > 2: Host the phpBB web services on an Apache server.
>
> Will topics regarding LibreOffice be accepted on this forum like it is now?
>
> Or will it be apache-OOo exclusive?
Hello Christian,
The people that answer questions on the forum are 100% volunteers, as
long as there are people that desire to answer such questions they will.
I have heard no one suggest that the current situation, of offering such
support, change.
Best wishes,
Drew
RE: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
To avoid branding issues and the rules for incubators, I favor the simplified wording without "Apache" if that works. That is, Andy Brown's suggested
"OpenOffice.org and related products"
(assuming we are still talking about material accessed via *.openoffice.org and not *.apache.org)
Pointing to "Apache OpenOffice.org (incubator)" then makes sense as one of those related products. This can be adjusted over time, first when we have our first podling releases, and then when we become a Top-Level Project (TLP). There are many miles to travel, rivers to ford, oceans to cross.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Ingrid von der Mehden [mailto:IngridvdM@gmx-topmail.de]
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 05:04
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Am 08.08.2011 02:01, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>> Would it not be more accurate to say "OpenOffice.org and related products"?
>> At this time there is no Apache OpenOffice.org to be related to. Even
>> Apache OpenOffice.org will be one of those "related products".
>>
>
> My understanding of Apache Branding Requirements is that we only need
> to use the full name the first time it is used on the page. So title =
> "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" and subtitle = "User community
> support forum for OpenOffice.org and related products" would be fine.
>
+1 to this suggestion for the forum header.
It is inviting and gives equal rights to all flavors of OpenOffice.org.
Ingrid
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by Ingrid von der Mehden <In...@gmx-topmail.de>.
Am 08.08.2011 02:01, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>> Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Phipps<si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir<ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
>>>>> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
>>>>> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
>>>>> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
>>>>> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
>>>>> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
>>>>> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
>>>> rather than less restrictive?
>>>>
>>>
>>> By naming some products, but not others, we're being arbitrarily
>>> restrictive. But listing the actual product under whose aegis this
>>> forum is hosted is merely being accurate. Whether the forums are
>>> restrictive or not will depend on the behavior of forum participants
>>> to questions from users of products other than Apache OpenOffice. As
>>> stated before, I hoping we'll be helpful where we can, and refer users
>>> to the respective projects otherwise.
>>>
>>> I'd be equally happy with a neutral: "User community support forum for
>>> Apache OpenOffice.org and related products".
>>>
>>
>> Would it not be more accurate to say "OpenOffice.org and related products"?
>> At this time there is no Apache OpenOffice.org to be related to. Even
>> Apache OpenOffice.org will be one of those "related products".
>>
>
> My understanding of Apache Branding Requirements is that we only need
> to use the full name the first time it is used on the page. So title =
> "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" and subtitle = "User community
> support forum for OpenOffice.org and related products" would be fine.
>
+1 to this suggestion for the forum header.
It is inviting and gives equal rights to all flavors of OpenOffice.org.
Ingrid
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Phipps<si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir<ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
>>>> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
>>>> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
>>>> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>>>>
>>>> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
>>>> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
>>>> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
>>>> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
>>> rather than less restrictive?
>>>
>>
>> By naming some products, but not others, we're being arbitrarily
>> restrictive. But listing the actual product under whose aegis this
>> forum is hosted is merely being accurate. Whether the forums are
>> restrictive or not will depend on the behavior of forum participants
>> to questions from users of products other than Apache OpenOffice. As
>> stated before, I hoping we'll be helpful where we can, and refer users
>> to the respective projects otherwise.
>>
>> I'd be equally happy with a neutral: "User community support forum for
>> Apache OpenOffice.org and related products".
>>
>
> Would it not be more accurate to say "OpenOffice.org and related products"?
> At this time there is no Apache OpenOffice.org to be related to. Even
> Apache OpenOffice.org will be one of those "related products".
>
My understanding of Apache Branding Requirements is that we only need
to use the full name the first time it is used on the page. So title =
"Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" and subtitle = "User community
support forum for OpenOffice.org and related products" would be fine.
> Andy
>
>
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache
servers
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Phipps<si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir<ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
>>> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
>>> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
>>> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>>>
>>> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
>>> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
>>> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
>>> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>>>
>>
>> Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
>> rather than less restrictive?
>>
>
> By naming some products, but not others, we're being arbitrarily
> restrictive. But listing the actual product under whose aegis this
> forum is hosted is merely being accurate. Whether the forums are
> restrictive or not will depend on the behavior of forum participants
> to questions from users of products other than Apache OpenOffice. As
> stated before, I hoping we'll be helpful where we can, and refer users
> to the respective projects otherwise.
>
> I'd be equally happy with a neutral: "User community support forum for
> Apache OpenOffice.org and related products".
>
Would it not be more accurate to say "OpenOffice.org and related
products"? At this time there is no Apache OpenOffice.org to be related
to. Even Apache OpenOffice.org will be one of those "related products".
Andy
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
>> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
>> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
>> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>>
>> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
>> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
>> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
>> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>>
>
> Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
> rather than less restrictive?
>
By naming some products, but not others, we're being arbitrarily
restrictive. But listing the actual product under whose aegis this
forum is hosted is merely being accurate. Whether the forums are
restrictive or not will depend on the behavior of forum participants
to questions from users of products other than Apache OpenOffice. As
stated before, I hoping we'll be helpful where we can, and refer users
to the respective projects otherwise.
I'd be equally happy with a neutral: "User community support forum for
Apache OpenOffice.org and related products".
-Rob
> S.
>
RE: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:simon@webmink.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 15:26
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers
On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
>
> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>
> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>
Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
rather than less restrictive?
S.
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
>
> However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
> forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
> titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
> Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
>
> Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
> OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
> that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
> that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
>
Surely the net effect of these two changes taken together would be more,
rather than less restrictive?
S.
Re: Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to
Apache servers
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Christian Lohmaier <cl...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:24 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I'd like to try and move this particular item to completion.
>>
>> Reading over the mailing list it is my opinion that their is a
>> reasonable consensus for the Apache OpenOffice podling to facilitate
>> continuity of service to the OpenOffice.org Community Fourms located at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org by allowing the site:
>>
>> 1: Continue to use this URL
>>
>> 2: Host the phpBB web services on an Apache server.
>
> Will topics regarding LibreOffice be accepted on this forum like it is now?
>
> Or will it be apache-OOo exclusive?
>
What would you do right now if someone sent a LibreOffice-related
question to this list? Or related RedOffice? or Symphony? Or any of
the variations?
I assume we'd try to help if we could, and if we could not we'd point
them to the LibreOffice (or RedOffice or Symphony or whatever) list.
Anyone can sign up and post to a public Apache list like this and we
don't moderate the topics. Sure, if someone starts posting spam, then
we'll do something about it. Ditto if the questions are totally off
topic or disruptive to the focus and attention of the list
participants. But we're not perched, ready to toss out topics.
I assume we're treat the user forums similarly. Although it is using
a different technology, the phpBB forums are serving the same function
as an Apache project's user list. So we should consider this to be
the face of the project to the user, typically a user needing help.
Questions from a LibreOffice user needing help could be a perfect
opportunity to give them a good support experience and reinforce the
value of OfficeOffice.org.
However, I would request that we be careful about the branding on the
forums, since they are part of the Apache project. For example, the
titles of the forums today are "OpenOffice.org Community Forum".
Maybe call them instead "Apache OpenOffice.org Support Forum" ?
Also, the internal subtitle is "User community support forum for
OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice". (Note also
that this subtitle is not consistent across the languages.) I think
that is unnecessarily restrictive. It could safely be omitted.
> ciao
> Christian
>