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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> on 2011/06/16 04:24:17 UTC
[ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
couple more if the move happens.
Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
-Rahul
[1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
[2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
[3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
[4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
+1
they sound really interesting esp JCS
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Oliver Heger <ol...@oliver-heger.de>.
+1
Oliver
Am 16.06.2011 04:24, schrieb Rahul Akolkar:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
+1 - welcome!
Phil
On 6/15/11 7:24 PM, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
+1. No concerns here, the more the merrier.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Simone Tripodi
<si...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1
>
> I don't see any minimal potential risk, BCEL is well known and widely
> adopted and JCS could be kind of commons-cache (dormant) finalization.
> Full support from my side.
> Simo
>
> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
> http://www.99soft.org/
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
>> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
>> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
>> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
>> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
>> couple more if the move happens.
>>
>> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>>
>> -Rahul
>>
>> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
>> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Simone Tripodi <si...@apache.org>.
+1
I don't see any minimal potential risk, BCEL is well known and widely
adopted and JCS could be kind of commons-cache (dormant) finalization.
Full support from my side.
Simo
http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It could just be that the other interested parties are on holiday, or
>> that they agree with the move and don't feel the need to say so.
>
> May be, but it should also be noted the replies came from people like
> you, which are most likely interested in Jakarta in general. Neither
> is listed on the team page of BCEL, or JCS.
>
tv is listed as a JCS contributor. So:
- he has contributed in the past
- he is an ASF committer and member
- he has professed his willngness to develop JCS @ Commons
Good enough for me.
Matt
>
> --
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
> everyone.
>
> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It could just be that the other interested parties are on holiday, or
> that they agree with the move and don't feel the need to say so.
May be, but it should also be noted the replies came from people like
you, which are most likely interested in Jakarta in general. Neither
is listed on the team page of BCEL, or JCS.
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 June 2011 13:12, Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And now, after reading through the threads below: Same question for JCS?
>
> As I see it, you got only three replies in more than one week to such
> an important topic. That's not the smell of an active project?
It could just be that the other interested parties are on holiday, or
that they agree with the move and don't feel the need to say so.
> Jochen
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jochen Wiedmann
> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
>>> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
>>> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
>>> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
>>> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
>>> couple more if the move happens.
>>>
>>> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>>>
>>> -Rahul
>>>
>>> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
>>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
>>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
>>> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
>> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
>> everyone.
>>
>> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
> everyone.
>
> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
And now, after reading through the threads below: Same question for JCS?
As I see it, you got only three replies in more than one week to such
an important topic. That's not the smell of an active project?
Jochen
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jochen Wiedmann
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
>> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
>> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
>> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
>> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
>> couple more if the move happens.
>>
>> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>>
>> -Rahul
>>
>> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
>> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
> everyone.
>
> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Simone Tripodi <si...@apache.org>.
+1 to Matt, wise said :)
http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who hadn't heard of JCS.
> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
> I'd like to work on it. From the Jakarta threads, Thomas Vandahl
> offered to step up, so given our low bar for existing ASF committers,
> it should have enough care to ensure its welfare. Not sure what
> factors contributed to the stagnation of BCEL development, but I like
> to think of Commons as "the" swiss army knife for Java developers--any
> library with a sharply defined surface area and, even better,
> satisfying some need commonly encountered by Java developers, belongs
> here IMO. I guess I'm saying these components probably should have
> been under the Commons umbrella as soon as it "opened." If they can't
> thrive here, they can be stuffed in the attic later, but what can it
> hurt to bring them in and see what happens?
>
> Matt
>
> [1] http://groups.google.com/group/jsr107/browse_thread/thread/9a4153ee375f44ae
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:52 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 June 2011 14:53, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
>>> <snip/>
>>>
>>> Given that I have looked a bit after BCEL over the past few years here
>>> are my two cents:
>>>
>>> BCEL development is dead dead dead ... still people come and use it.
>>> Why they don't use ASM is beyond me. I myself use ASM whenever I can.
>>
>> Just checked Findbugs and they seem to be using ASM and BCEL, so
>> perhaps they have found something that BCEL does better than ASM?
>>
>>> For those how want "easier" I would suggest javassist ...if it wasn't LGPL
>>> (although I heard it is now dual licensed LGPL + MPL)
>>>
>>> That said BCEL trunk has quite some major fixes and changes.
>>> Due to lack of feedback and testers this has never been released.
>>> And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
>>>
>>> BCEL is one of the few failed Apache communities.
>>> A couple people/groups/projects have forked it without ever contributing back.
>>> This would have been crucial for this so very specialized code base.
>>> Not pointing fingers - it was very poorly maintained before.
>>>
>>> After the years I have given up hope on BCEL.
>>> Being part of Commons ... hm ... doesn't feel right.
>>> Who would step up and work on it here? (anyone?)
>>
>> If there is a need for a new release, I would work on it.
>>
>>> IMO attic would reflect the reality. Just not sure whether we should
>>> do a release before or not.
>>>
>>>> Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
>>>> sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
>>>> annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
>>>
>>> With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Torsten
>>> --
>>> http://www.yourdailygeekery.com
>>> http://www.torstencurdt.com
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 6/19/11 9:47 AM, Thomas Vandahl wrote:
> On 18.06.11 18:45, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just code on its own = -1. As long as committers are coming, +1.
>>>
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Proposal is to give existing committers karma (some have it). In
>> addition, there seems some new folks interested (amongst Commons
>> committers).
> Would that mean that commit karma will be transferred from Jakarta to
> Commons if, for example, JCS moves?
Yes, we would formally VOTE to do this, but we would grant Commons
karma to Jakarta committers working on these things. Jakarta karma
would obviously remain intact.
Phil
> Bye, Thomas.
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 18.06.11 18:45, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just code on its own = -1. As long as committers are coming, +1.
>>>
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Proposal is to give existing committers karma (some have it). In
>> addition, there seems some new folks interested (amongst Commons
>> committers).
>
> Would that mean that commit karma will be transferred from Jakarta to
> Commons if, for example, JCS moves?
>
<snip/>
I'd propose bringing atleast the following folks with the code:
BCEL: dbrosius (tcurdt already has Commons karma)
JCS: asmuts, tv
The Commons PMC would have to approve ofcourse.
Further, if anyone else who has previously contributed shows up
interested, I'd be willing to nominate them as well.
-Rahul
> Bye, Thomas.
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
On 18.06.11 18:45, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just code on its own = -1. As long as committers are coming, +1.
>>
> <snip/>
>
> Proposal is to give existing committers karma (some have it). In
> addition, there seems some new folks interested (amongst Commons
> committers).
Would that mean that commit karma will be transferred from Jakarta to
Commons if, for example, JCS moves?
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 6/16/11 8:22 AM, Matt Benson wrote:
>>> (accidentally sent to Jochen personally before, sorry)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
>>>> Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
>>>> JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
>>> My point was that if we have a good cache library @ Commons, I would
>>> assume we could build on that to implement the JSR (if the TCK is
>>> licensed such that we can actually use it, no guarantee there) if we
>>> want to. Perhaps an incorrect assumption, but I have a difficult time
>>> with the concept of "can't be done."
>>
>> +1 - whoever picks this thing up can do whatever they want with it.
>> I suspect all of the "I" references in [2] are obsolete :) Looks
>> like we have several people interested in working on it, so I see no
>> reason not to let them do it here.
>
> +1.
>
> Just code on its own = -1. As long as committers are coming, +1.
>
<snip/>
Proposal is to give existing committers karma (some have it). In
addition, there seems some new folks interested (amongst Commons
committers).
> From a bigger picture point of view - I want Jakarta to go to the
> Attic. These components, as with many in Commons, have kept themselves
> just about alive and keep Jakarta out of the Attic. Moving them over
> to Commons is no real change to themselves, no real impact to Commons
> in the worst case and a big step towards closing down Jakarta.
>
<snap/>
Indeed.
> Then Rahul just has to convince BSF, Cactus and JMeter that they'd be
> just the same as quiet TLPs :)
>
<snip/>
Yup, BSF and Cactus come next (JMeter is in fair shape). But, one step
at a time, slow and steady :-)
-Rahul
> Hen
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/16/11 8:22 AM, Matt Benson wrote:
>> (accidentally sent to Jochen personally before, sorry)
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
>>> Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
>>> JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
>> My point was that if we have a good cache library @ Commons, I would
>> assume we could build on that to implement the JSR (if the TCK is
>> licensed such that we can actually use it, no guarantee there) if we
>> want to. Perhaps an incorrect assumption, but I have a difficult time
>> with the concept of "can't be done."
>
> +1 - whoever picks this thing up can do whatever they want with it.
> I suspect all of the "I" references in [2] are obsolete :) Looks
> like we have several people interested in working on it, so I see no
> reason not to let them do it here.
+1.
Just code on its own = -1. As long as committers are coming, +1.
>From a bigger picture point of view - I want Jakarta to go to the
Attic. These components, as with many in Commons, have kept themselves
just about alive and keep Jakarta out of the Attic. Moving them over
to Commons is no real change to themselves, no real impact to Commons
in the worst case and a big step towards closing down Jakarta.
Then Rahul just has to convince BSF, Cactus and JMeter that they'd be
just the same as quiet TLPs :)
Hen
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 6/16/11 8:22 AM, Matt Benson wrote:
> (accidentally sent to Jochen personally before, sorry)
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
>> Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
>> JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
> My point was that if we have a good cache library @ Commons, I would
> assume we could build on that to implement the JSR (if the TCK is
> licensed such that we can actually use it, no guarantee there) if we
> want to. Perhaps an incorrect assumption, but I have a difficult time
> with the concept of "can't be done."
+1 - whoever picks this thing up can do whatever they want with it.
I suspect all of the "I" references in [2] are obsolete :) Looks
like we have several people interested in working on it, so I see no
reason not to let them do it here.
Phil
> Matt
>
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/JCSandJCACHE.html
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
>> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
>> everyone.
>>
>> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (accidentally sent to Jochen personally before, sorry)
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
>>
>> Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
>> JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
>
> My point was that if we have a good cache library @ Commons, I would
> assume we could build on that to implement the JSR (if the TCK is
> licensed such that we can actually use it, no guarantee there) if we
> want to. Perhaps an incorrect assumption, but I have a difficult time
> with the concept of "can't be done."
>
After reading the link, I suppose the correct course of action would
be to gauge the benefits and drawbacks of spec compliance vs.
noncompliance. I would suspect it could be nice to implement the JSR
while preserving configuration options to disable undesirable features
if they continue to seem so after community review.
Matt
> Matt
>
>>
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/JCSandJCACHE.html
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
>> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
>> everyone.
>>
>> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>>
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com>.
(accidentally sent to Jochen personally before, sorry)
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
>
> Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
> JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
My point was that if we have a good cache library @ Commons, I would
assume we could build on that to implement the JSR (if the TCK is
licensed such that we can actually use it, no guarantee there) if we
want to. Perhaps an incorrect assumption, but I have a difficult time
with the concept of "can't be done."
Matt
>
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/JCSandJCACHE.html
>
>
>
> --
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
> everyone.
>
> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
Are you sure, that's related? Reading [2], my understanding is that
JCS doesn't aim to implement JSR-107, but to be "close to".
[2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/JCSandJCACHE.html
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
>> So according to you byte code manipulation is a "commonly encountered
>> need" for java developers?
>> I guess then Commons should/could be the home of virtually any java
>> library out there.
>>
>> ...plus your favorite kitchen sink :)
>>
>> That's not how I interpret our charter.
>
> Agreed - who said we were limited to Java? ;)
LOL
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
>> Not sure what
>> factors contributed to the stagnation of BCEL development, but I like
>> to think of Commons as "the" swiss army knife for Java developers--any
>> library with a sharply defined surface area and, even better,
>> satisfying some need commonly encountered by Java developers, belongs
>> here IMO.
>
> So according to you byte code manipulation is a "commonly encountered
> need" for java developers?
> I guess then Commons should/could be the home of virtually any java
> library out there.
>
> ...plus your favorite kitchen sink :)
>
> That's not how I interpret our charter.
Agreed - who said we were limited to Java? ;)
Hen
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
>> So according to you byte code manipulation is a "commonly encountered
>> need" for java developers?
>> I guess then Commons should/could be the home of virtually any java
>> library out there.
>
> Point taken; however, from the "when all you have is a hammer"
> perspective, if byte code generation/manipulation were made easy
> enough, folk might use it more! ;)
...what came first - the chicken or the egg? ;)
(Please no one answer - otherwise this could become the longest thread
in the ASF's history)
But seriously. I see Commons as what is missing from the JDK.
BCEL is (or was?) even included in the JDK - so there goes my argument.
But in the end it comes down to a personal interpretation what should
have been included.
All I can say is that I my vote is something around -0.1 and +0.1
...depending on the time of the day ;)
cheers,
Torsten
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 6:32 PM, James Carman
<ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> Perhaps Proxy could use BCEL to implement ProxyFactory (or whatever
> it's called these days).
As Thorsten wrote, they can (and perhaps even should) use ASM. The
fact that a project might be used by yet another project, is not a
sufficient reason to keep BCEL alive. Others have pointed out that are
plenty of other consumers, but that was obviously never a good enough
reason to contribute or even drive.
Jochen
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Point taken; however, from the "when all you have is a hammer"
> perspective, if byte code generation/manipulation were made easy
> enough, folk might use it more! ;)
>
Perhaps Proxy could use BCEL to implement ProxyFactory (or whatever
it's called these days).
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
>> Not sure what
>> factors contributed to the stagnation of BCEL development, but I like
>> to think of Commons as "the" swiss army knife for Java developers--any
>> library with a sharply defined surface area and, even better,
>> satisfying some need commonly encountered by Java developers, belongs
>> here IMO.
>
> So according to you byte code manipulation is a "commonly encountered
> need" for java developers?
> I guess then Commons should/could be the home of virtually any java
> library out there.
Point taken; however, from the "when all you have is a hammer"
perspective, if byte code generation/manipulation were made easy
enough, folk might use it more! ;)
>
> ...plus your favorite kitchen sink :)
:P I did say "even better" i.e. that being a common requirement is a
plus rather than a requirement. I see nothing in our charter that
places this type of bar. My vision of Commons is as a set of "atoms,"
if you will, in terms of which all broader-in-scope libraries may be
defined. Like the philosophy of Unix system tools.
Matt
>
> That's not how I interpret our charter.
>
> cheers,
> Torsten
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
> Not sure what
> factors contributed to the stagnation of BCEL development, but I like
> to think of Commons as "the" swiss army knife for Java developers--any
> library with a sharply defined surface area and, even better,
> satisfying some need commonly encountered by Java developers, belongs
> here IMO.
So according to you byte code manipulation is a "commonly encountered
need" for java developers?
I guess then Commons should/could be the home of virtually any java
library out there.
...plus your favorite kitchen sink :)
That's not how I interpret our charter.
cheers,
Torsten
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@gmail.com>.
First, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who hadn't heard of JCS.
Considering [1], I'd say it's more relevant now than, arguably, ever.
I'd like to work on it. From the Jakarta threads, Thomas Vandahl
offered to step up, so given our low bar for existing ASF committers,
it should have enough care to ensure its welfare. Not sure what
factors contributed to the stagnation of BCEL development, but I like
to think of Commons as "the" swiss army knife for Java developers--any
library with a sharply defined surface area and, even better,
satisfying some need commonly encountered by Java developers, belongs
here IMO. I guess I'm saying these components probably should have
been under the Commons umbrella as soon as it "opened." If they can't
thrive here, they can be stuffed in the attic later, but what can it
hurt to bring them in and see what happens?
Matt
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/jsr107/browse_thread/thread/9a4153ee375f44ae
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:52 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 June 2011 14:53, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Given that I have looked a bit after BCEL over the past few years here
>> are my two cents:
>>
>> BCEL development is dead dead dead ... still people come and use it.
>> Why they don't use ASM is beyond me. I myself use ASM whenever I can.
>
> Just checked Findbugs and they seem to be using ASM and BCEL, so
> perhaps they have found something that BCEL does better than ASM?
>
>> For those how want "easier" I would suggest javassist ...if it wasn't LGPL
>> (although I heard it is now dual licensed LGPL + MPL)
>>
>> That said BCEL trunk has quite some major fixes and changes.
>> Due to lack of feedback and testers this has never been released.
>> And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
>>
>> BCEL is one of the few failed Apache communities.
>> A couple people/groups/projects have forked it without ever contributing back.
>> This would have been crucial for this so very specialized code base.
>> Not pointing fingers - it was very poorly maintained before.
>>
>> After the years I have given up hope on BCEL.
>> Being part of Commons ... hm ... doesn't feel right.
>> Who would step up and work on it here? (anyone?)
>
> If there is a need for a new release, I would work on it.
>
>> IMO attic would reflect the reality. Just not sure whether we should
>> do a release before or not.
>>
>>> Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
>>> sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
>>> annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
>>
>> With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Torsten
>> --
>> http://www.yourdailygeekery.com
>> http://www.torstencurdt.com
>>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 June 2011 14:53, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
> <snip/>
>
> Given that I have looked a bit after BCEL over the past few years here
> are my two cents:
>
> BCEL development is dead dead dead ... still people come and use it.
> Why they don't use ASM is beyond me. I myself use ASM whenever I can.
Just checked Findbugs and they seem to be using ASM and BCEL, so
perhaps they have found something that BCEL does better than ASM?
> For those how want "easier" I would suggest javassist ...if it wasn't LGPL
> (although I heard it is now dual licensed LGPL + MPL)
>
> That said BCEL trunk has quite some major fixes and changes.
> Due to lack of feedback and testers this has never been released.
> And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
>
> BCEL is one of the few failed Apache communities.
> A couple people/groups/projects have forked it without ever contributing back.
> This would have been crucial for this so very specialized code base.
> Not pointing fingers - it was very poorly maintained before.
>
> After the years I have given up hope on BCEL.
> Being part of Commons ... hm ... doesn't feel right.
> Who would step up and work on it here? (anyone?)
If there is a need for a new release, I would work on it.
> IMO attic would reflect the reality. Just not sure whether we should
> do a release before or not.
>
>> Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
>> sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
>> annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
>
> With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
>
> cheers,
> Torsten
> --
> http://www.yourdailygeekery.com
> http://www.torstencurdt.com
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Jun 16, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:54, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
>>
>> With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
>
> Xalan uses BCEL too FWIW.
I'm not sure how that helps. From what I can tell Xalan is fairly close to moving to the attic itself.
Ralph
Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com>.
On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:54, Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org> wrote:
> <snip/>
>
> Given that I have looked a bit after BCEL over the past few years here
> are my two cents:
>
> BCEL development is dead dead dead ... still people come and use it.
> Why they don't use ASM is beyond me. I myself use ASM whenever I can.
> For those how want "easier" I would suggest javassist ...if it wasn't LGPL
> (although I heard it is now dual licensed LGPL + MPL)
>
> That said BCEL trunk has quite some major fixes and changes.
> Due to lack of feedback and testers this has never been released.
> And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
>
> BCEL is one of the few failed Apache communities.
> A couple people/groups/projects have forked it without ever contributing back.
> This would have been crucial for this so very specialized code base.
> Not pointing fingers - it was very poorly maintained before.
>
> After the years I have given up hope on BCEL.
> Being part of Commons ... hm ... doesn't feel right.
> Who would step up and work on it here? (anyone?)
>
> IMO attic would reflect the reality. Just not sure whether we should
> do a release before or not.
>
>> Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
>> sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
>> annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
>
> With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
Xalan uses BCEL too FWIW.
Gary
>
> cheers,
> Torsten
> --
> http://www.yourdailygeekery.com
> http://www.torstencurdt.com
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
<snip/>
Given that I have looked a bit after BCEL over the past few years here
are my two cents:
BCEL development is dead dead dead ... still people come and use it.
Why they don't use ASM is beyond me. I myself use ASM whenever I can.
For those how want "easier" I would suggest javassist ...if it wasn't LGPL
(although I heard it is now dual licensed LGPL + MPL)
That said BCEL trunk has quite some major fixes and changes.
Due to lack of feedback and testers this has never been released.
And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
BCEL is one of the few failed Apache communities.
A couple people/groups/projects have forked it without ever contributing back.
This would have been crucial for this so very specialized code base.
Not pointing fingers - it was very poorly maintained before.
After the years I have given up hope on BCEL.
Being part of Commons ... hm ... doesn't feel right.
Who would step up and work on it here? (anyone?)
IMO attic would reflect the reality. Just not sure whether we should
do a release before or not.
> Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
> sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
> annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
With all honesty - it should switch to ASM and not look back.
cheers,
Torsten
--
http://www.yourdailygeekery.com
http://www.torstencurdt.com
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Konstantin Kolinko <kn...@gmail.com>.
2011/6/16 Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>:
> On 16/06/2011 13:07, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>> In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
>
> For the record, Tomcat 7 is using a partial, package renamed fork of
> BCEL but isn't doing anything that might be considered active
> development. I don't think a move to the attic would cause any issues
> there. (Neither would a move to Commons.)
>
As far as BCEL follows the format of the class files, I think there might
be need for improvements if the class file format is updated - with Java 7 or 8.
It is a blessing that Java 6 remains to be alive for so long.
Regarding Tomcat usage - it might be of interest to the new commons
sandbox component - formerly Meiyo. Tomcat 7 uses BCEL to scan
annotations without the need to load classes through a class loader.
Best regards,
Konstantin Kolinko
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 16/06/2011 13:07, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
For the record, Tomcat 7 is using a partial, package renamed fork of
BCEL but isn't doing anything that might be considered active
development. I don't think a move to the attic would cause any issues
there. (Neither would a move to Commons.)
Mark
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
>> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
>> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
>> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
>> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
>> couple more if the move happens.
>>
>> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>>
>> -Rahul
>>
>> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
>> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 June 2011 13:07, Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
There have been quite a few changes to BCEL since the last release
(5.2), including several this year, so if we do archive it, let's at
least do another release first.
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
>> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
>> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
>> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
>> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
>> couple more if the move happens.
>>
>> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>>
>> -Rahul
>>
>> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
>> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
>> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
> will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
> everyone.
>
> John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
In all honesty, Rahul: For BCEL wouldn't it be better to archive it?
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Jörg Schaible <jo...@scalaris.com>.
Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
+1
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On 2011-06-16, Rahul Akolkar wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
+1
Stefan
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 June 2011 03:24, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for a
> couple more if the move happens.
+1
[I assume this is a pre-vote otherwise we need a different subject]
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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Re: [ALL] BCEL and JCS as Commons components?
Posted by lu...@free.fr.
----- "Rahul Akolkar" <ra...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> As Jakarta winds down, we are looking for sustainable homes for
> couple
> of Java libraries -- BCEL [1] and JCS [2]. These aren't very
> different
> from many Commons libraries in size, number of developers, list
> traffic etc. Would Commons be interested in accepting these? Couple
> of
> the developers already have Commons karma, we will request karma for
> a
> couple more if the move happens.
Sounds good to me.
+1
Luc
>
> Background threads in Jakarta land here [3, 4].
>
> -Rahul
>
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/bcel/
> [2] http://jakarta.apache.org/jcs/
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/vtgzc5pqsjol4cft
> [4] http://markmail.org/thread/uacopjsbw7xkw4q7
>
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