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Posted to dev@activemq.apache.org by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com> on 2017/12/06 15:00:24 UTC
[DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Can we move the github PR discussions away to a different list...
I suggest we create a list called hacking@activemq.apache.org
We could use it for all the github PRs notifications.. and eventually
low level discussions.
We should still keep general discussions on the dev list.
That would probably improve communication style and decrease noise.
And.. do I need a VOTE for that? or just consensus here?
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Arthur Naseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
Thanks Michael.
On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Michael André Pearce <
michael.andre.pearce@me.com> wrote:
> Just to clear on my comment much earlier on, it’s my feeling about it
> only. I’m not strongly opinionated thus I didn’t -1 or +1 it, maybe I
> should have +0 it, I personally wouldn’t change it, but if the group wants
> to I won’t be upset either.
>
> it’s email after all I’m sure and i can always subscribe to an extra list.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 7 Dec 2017, at 17:25, artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com> wrote:
> >
> > For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a
> question.
> >
> > Is the concern clear?
> >
> > I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we
> can
> > talk more about the concern.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> f2368404.html
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Michael André Pearce <mi...@me.com>.
Just to clear on my comment much earlier on, it’s my feeling about it only. I’m not strongly opinionated thus I didn’t -1 or +1 it, maybe I should have +0 it, I personally wouldn’t change it, but if the group wants to I won’t be upset either.
it’s email after all I’m sure and i can always subscribe to an extra list.
Sent from my iPhone
> On 7 Dec 2017, at 17:25, artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com> wrote:
>
> For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a question.
>
> Is the concern clear?
>
> I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we can
> talk more about the concern.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a question.
Is the concern clear?
I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we can
talk more about the concern.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
There is more to dev discussions than just code.
Example. Roadmap. Architectural decisions. High level stuff that could
catch some folks who’s opinion are valuable but don’t like spending time on
messages like. Hey there is an extra space here. Things we talk on GitHub
PR.
This change can’t bother devs. It doesn’t bother me. But I see the value
of it for people with that high level mentality.
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:44 AM Jiri Danek <jd...@redhat.com> wrote:
> Given that the message volume of non-PR messages on the dev@ list is not
> that high, wouldn't it make some sense to
> discuss anything which is not low-level code-oriented stuff on the users@
> list, and keep using dev@ for archiving the low-level code-focused PR
> discussions?
> --
> Jiri Daněk
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Jiri Danek <jd...@redhat.com>.
Given that the message volume of non-PR messages on the dev@ list is not
that high, wouldn't it make some sense to
discuss anything which is not low-level code-oriented stuff on the users@
list, and keep using dev@ for archiving the low-level code-focused PR
discussions?
--
Jiri Daněk
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
I'm putting this out there - hope folks will read it as I found it very
helpful. It's not technical...
https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit4.php
The numbered list is the most pertinent part IMO. I post it here because I
see a trend in the communication that I think this helps to address.
Art
P.S. Yes, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Covey.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Martyn Taylor <mt...@redhat.com>.
+0. I manage just fine using filters and also use the dev list to conduct
PR discussions. I am not against the idea of using separate lists, if
others think it'd be useful.
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> It seems to me that we should then move it... people who need can
> still follow up... it would be a nice compromise for everybody...
>
> Would we be ok to move github comments to the commit list? ( I think
> that't the list we should use).
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:45 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
> > contributor)
> >
> > I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@
> list,
> > getting the notifications there. With tools like github, since you're
> > getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
> > list, it becomes noise. You have the option to subscribe where you want
> to
> > on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
> > separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages. So
> > there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those
> messages.
> >
> > It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on
> list,
> > archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do
> what.
> >
> > Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
> > separate artemis-dev@activemq.a.o list for development discussions
> specific
> > to Artemis.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <
> clebert.suconic@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
> >> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
> >>
> >>
> >> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
> >> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
> >> have a wider discussion?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
> >> discussion. If there are things in the PR discussions like code
> >> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done
> and
> >> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions. The
> >> commit is more “final”.
> >> >
> >> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list
> is
> >> the dev list. If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion
> which
> >> goes to the dev list. Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
> >> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go
> to a
> >> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list.
> I’m
> >> not sure that buys much.
> >> >
> >> > Dan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <
> clebert.suconic@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
> >> >> it's too noisy!
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>> -1
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
> >> that to
> >> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make
> more
> >> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> What if:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
> >> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as..
> the
> >> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
> >> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like
> crazy.
> >> >>>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to
> the
> >> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case
> at
> >> >>>> some point
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
> >> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private
> list..
> >> >>>> etc.. etc)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
> >> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them)
> are
> >> part
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some
> projects
> >> have
> >> >>>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work
> off
> >> PRs
> >> >>>>> and
> >> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
> >> repository.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
> >> causes
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble,
> >> some
> >> >>>>> use
> >> >>>>> an email client.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Sent from:
> >> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Tim Bish
> >> >>> twitter: @tabish121
> >> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Clebert Suconic
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Daniel Kulp
> >> > dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
> >> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clebert Suconic
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
It seems to me that we should then move it... people who need can
still follow up... it would be a nice compromise for everybody...
Would we be ok to move github comments to the commit list? ( I think
that't the list we should use).
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:45 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
> contributor)
>
> I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@ list,
> getting the notifications there. With tools like github, since you're
> getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
> list, it becomes noise. You have the option to subscribe where you want to
> on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
> separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages. So
> there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those messages.
>
> It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on list,
> archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do what.
>
> Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
> separate artemis-dev@activemq.a.o list for development discussions specific
> to Artemis.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
>> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
>>
>>
>> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
>> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
>> have a wider discussion?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
>> discussion. If there are things in the PR discussions like code
>> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and
>> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions. The
>> commit is more “final”.
>> >
>> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is
>> the dev list. If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which
>> goes to the dev list. Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
>> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a
>> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list. I’m
>> not sure that buys much.
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
>> >> it's too noisy!
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> -1
>> >>>
>> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
>> that to
>> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
>> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What if:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
>> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
>> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
>> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
>> >>>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
>> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
>> >>>> some point
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
>> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
>> >>>> etc.. etc)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
>> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are
>> part
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects
>> have
>> >>>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off
>> PRs
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
>> repository.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
>> causes
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble,
>> some
>> >>>>> use
>> >>>>> an email client.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Sent from:
>> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Tim Bish
>> >>> twitter: @tabish121
>> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Clebert Suconic
>> >
>> > --
>> > Daniel Kulp
>> > dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
>> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Clebert Suconic
>>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
contributor)
I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@ list,
getting the notifications there. With tools like github, since you're
getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
list, it becomes noise. You have the option to subscribe where you want to
on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages. So
there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those messages.
It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on list,
archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do what.
Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
separate artemis-dev@activemq.a.o list for development discussions specific
to Artemis.
John
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
>
>
> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
> have a wider discussion?
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
> discussion. If there are things in the PR discussions like code
> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and
> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions. The
> commit is more “final”.
> >
> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is
> the dev list. If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which
> goes to the dev list. Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a
> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list. I’m
> not sure that buys much.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
> >> it's too noisy!
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> -1
> >>>
> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
> that to
> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> What if:
> >>>>
> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
> >>>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
> >>>> some point
> >>>>
> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
> >>>> etc.. etc)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are
> part
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects
> have
> >>>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off
> PRs
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
> repository.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
> causes
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble,
> some
> >>>>> use
> >>>>> an email client.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Sent from:
> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Tim Bish
> >>> twitter: @tabish121
> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clebert Suconic
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Kulp
> > dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
@Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
have a wider discussion?
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a discussion. If there are things in the PR discussions like code suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions. The commit is more “final”.
>
> That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is the dev list. If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which goes to the dev list. Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list. I’m not sure that buys much.
>
> Dan
>
>
>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
>> it's too noisy!
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> -1
>>>
>>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving that to
>>> another list as that is part of the development process.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>>>>
>>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
>>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What if:
>>>>
>>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
>>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
>>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
>>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
>>>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
>>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
>>>> some point
>>>>
>>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
>>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
>>>> etc.. etc)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
>>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
>>>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs
>>>>> and
>>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes
>>>>> a
>>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some
>>>>> use
>>>>> an email client.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from:
>>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Bish
>>> twitter: @tabish121
>>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Clebert Suconic
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a discussion. If there are things in the PR discussions like code suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions. The commit is more “final”.
That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is the dev list. If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which goes to the dev list. Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list. I’m not sure that buys much.
Dan
> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
> it's too noisy!
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -1
>>
>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving that to
>> another list as that is part of the development process.
>>
>>
>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>>>
>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>>>
>>>
>>> What if:
>>>
>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
>>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
>>> some point
>>>
>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
>>> etc.. etc)
>>>
>>>
>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part
>>>>> of
>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>>>>
>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
>>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs
>>>> and
>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes
>>>> a
>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some
>>>> use
>>>> an email client.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from:
>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Tim Bish
>> twitter: @tabish121
>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
it's too noisy!
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -1
>
> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving that to
> another list as that is part of the development process.
>
>
> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>>
>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>>
>>
>> What if:
>>
>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
>> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
>> some point
>>
>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
>> etc.. etc)
>>
>>
>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>>>>
>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part
>>>> of
>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>>>
>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
>>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs
>>> and
>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes
>>> a
>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some
>>> use
>>> an email client.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from:
>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tim Bish
> twitter: @tabish121
> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com>.
-1
Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving that
to another list as that is part of the development process.
On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>
>
> What if:
>
> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
> ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
> some point
>
> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
> etc.. etc)
>
>
> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part of
>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
>> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs and
>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
>>
>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes a
>> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some use
>> an email client.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>
>
--
Tim Bish
twitter: @tabish121
blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
What if:
- We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
- We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
some point
But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
etc.. etc)
That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
> Daniel Kulp wrote
>> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part of
>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>
> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
> commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs and
> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
>
> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes a
> certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some use
> an email client.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by jgenender <jg...@apache.org>.
Daniel Kulp wrote
> I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part of
> the development process and should be on the dev list.
But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects have
commit lists. This is the difference between projects that work off PRs and
projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the repository.
Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created causes a
certain amount of people to lose conversations. Some use Nabble, some use
an email client.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
I’m -0.5 on moving them. PR’s (and the conversations in them) are part of the development process and should be on the dev list.
Dan
> On Dec 6, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can we move the github PR discussions away to a different list...
>
> I suggest we create a list called hacking@activemq.apache.org
>
> We could use it for all the github PRs notifications.. and eventually
> low level discussions.
>
> We should still keep general discussions on the dev list.
>
>
>
> That would probably improve communication style and decrease noise.
>
>
>
>
>
> And.. do I need a VOTE for that? or just consensus here?
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
+1 to Clebert's comments on clarity.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Justin Bertram <jb...@redhat.com>.
I see what you mean, Clebert. I think most of this is caused by the
fundamental mismatch between a mailing list and a threaded forum. It's
easy to filter the GitHub messages with an email client but impossible to
filter via a web interface like Nabble.
From what I recall (trying to dig up the archived mail now) when we decided
to use the GitHub PR process for code changes the requirement was that the
conversations on the PR would be reflected on the dev list. I think it's
good to have the PR conversations on the dev so people can stay up-to-date
on what's happening with the code (it is the *dev* list after all), but
there is also some extra noise in there as well.
0 is my vote.
Justin
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > If I wasn't part of the community.. I would leave now!
>
>
> Didn't write that well... I mean... when I looked at this page:
>
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>
>
>
> It's not very friendly.. and not very attractive to people to be part
> of discussions.. if we have more important discussions there it would
> be easier to follow.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
>
>
> If I wasn't part of the community.. I would leave now!
Didn't write that well... I mean... when I looked at this page:
http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
It's not very friendly.. and not very attractive to people to be part
of discussions.. if we have more important discussions there it would
be easier to follow.
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
I don't really care personally if it's separated or not...
All I'm trying to do is to make the list easier to be followed by
people not following every single line change we do through github.
Say, I just found ActiveMQ (or Artemis) on google...
when I go to the discussion list, I find this mess hard to be followed:
http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Is that a github filter?
If I wasn't part of the community.. I would leave now!
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Clebert Suconic
<cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We still have the commits list. It’s not listed st the website but it’s
> there.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me because I can address it
>> via filtering.
>>
>> I will say that at one time, we did have a commits@activemq mailing list
>> and it was nice to have those messages separate from the dev@activemq
>> mailing list. I don't recall why the commits@activemq list went away.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Shannon <
>> christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > +0, I'm fine with it either way. I currently use filters on my email
>> > which
>> > works for me but if people want to move PRs to another email address
>> > that's
>> > fine with me too.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:24 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > +1 to Clebert. PR messages are like commit messages and they
>> > > convolute
>> > > important topics.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
>> > > f2368404.html
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> perl -e 'print
>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
>>
>> ActiveMQ in Action: http://bit.ly/2je6cQ
>> Blog: http://bsnyder.org/ <http://bruceblog.org/>
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/brucesnyder
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
We still have the commits list. It’s not listed st the website but it’s
there.
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me because I can address it
> via filtering.
>
> I will say that at one time, we did have a commits@activemq mailing list
> and it was nice to have those messages separate from the dev@activemq
> mailing list. I don't recall why the commits@activemq list went away.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Shannon <
> christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +0, I'm fine with it either way. I currently use filters on my email
> which
> > works for me but if people want to move PRs to another email address
> that's
> > fine with me too.
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:24 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to Clebert. PR messages are like commit messages and they convolute
> > > important topics.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> > > f2368404.html
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> perl -e 'print
> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
>
> ActiveMQ in Action: http://bit.ly/2je6cQ
> Blog: http://bsnyder.org/ <http://bruceblog.org/>
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/brucesnyder
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>.
I can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me because I can address it
via filtering.
I will say that at one time, we did have a commits@activemq mailing list
and it was nice to have those messages separate from the dev@activemq
mailing list. I don't recall why the commits@activemq list went away.
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Shannon <
christopher.l.shannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> +0, I'm fine with it either way. I currently use filters on my email which
> works for me but if people want to move PRs to another email address that's
> fine with me too.
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:24 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > +1 to Clebert. PR messages are like commit messages and they convolute
> > important topics.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> > f2368404.html
> >
>
--
perl -e 'print
unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
ActiveMQ in Action: http://bit.ly/2je6cQ
Blog: http://bsnyder.org/ <http://bruceblog.org/>
Twitter: http://twitter.com/brucesnyder
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Christopher Shannon <ch...@gmail.com>.
+0, I'm fine with it either way. I currently use filters on my email which
works for me but if people want to move PRs to another email address that's
fine with me too.
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:24 PM, jgenender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1 to Clebert. PR messages are like commit messages and they convolute
> important topics.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> f2368404.html
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by jgenender <jg...@apache.org>.
+1 to Clebert. PR messages are like commit messages and they convolute
important topics.
Jeff
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
+1
Note that the actual list name comes up as "[hidden email]" in this post, so
my vote is not for the name itself.
With that said, cleaning up the DEV list - so that PRs, commit messages,
and other auto-generated git notices do not distract - is most welcome.
Art
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by artnaseef <ar...@amlinv.com>.
So any thoughts on how we can make sure important discussions, that deserve
the full attention of the PMC, can be achieved? Really, on how we can meet
everybody's needs...
We've got the following positions, as I see it so far:
1. Keep all DISCUSS and VOTE in public on the DEV list, do NOT bother
posting to the PMC list, and do NOT clean up the DEV list
2. Keep all DISCUSS and VOTE in public on the DEV list, do NOT bother
posting to the PMC list, but DO cleanup the DEV LIST
3. Keep all DISCUSS and VOTE in public on the DEV list, send an
appropriate posting to the PMC list, and do NOT clean up the DEV list
All three leave some concerns unaddressed.
I'm sure we can solve all the needs in a way that's comfortable for
everyone. We're smart, we have a ton of technology at our disposal, and we
care.
Note that this is coming up now because of the current DEV thread VOTING on
the future of AMQ in a very important way was almost missed by many of the
PMC members.
As a member of the PMC, I want to see all of the DISCUSS and VOTE threads,
but I personally do not get paid to read through the mailing lists, making
it challenging to find the time to filter through large numbers of messages
to find them. Filters are a valid approach for each individual, but we can
and should do better - without any special effort, folks communicating with
the community (especially those in key roles) should have easy access to the
right information.
And yes, I have setup email filters with mixed success. Another way to
think of this - if the messages can pre-organized, that helps everybody and
prevents distributing unneeded complexity.
P.S. For those of you saying, "deja vu?" - yes. This was raised more than
once in the past and has come up again.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Michael André Pearce <mi...@me.com>.
I agree with Timothy.
For all the same points. In my view all these notifications are dev discussion just some of it is occurring inline in GitHub, and having this pull that back to the dev discussion mail list is useful to keep a single place to see all.
Sent from my iPhone
> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:49, Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Personally I don't see a need for this, I've been getting along quite fine with filters to sort things out, personally I'd say moving would make it more complicated to keep an eye on what's going on in the community
>
>> On 12/06/2017 10:00 AM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>> Can we move the github PR discussions away to a different list...
>>
>> I suggest we create a list called hacking@activemq.apache.org
>>
>> We could use it for all the github PRs notifications.. and eventually
>> low level discussions.
>>
>> We should still keep general discussions on the dev list.
>>
>>
>>
>> That would probably improve communication style and decrease noise.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And.. do I need a VOTE for that? or just consensus here?
>>
>
> --
> Tim Bish
> twitter: @tabish121
> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...
Posted by Timothy Bish <ta...@gmail.com>.
Personally I don't see a need for this, I've been getting along quite
fine with filters to sort things out, personally I'd say moving would
make it more complicated to keep an eye on what's going on in the community
On 12/06/2017 10:00 AM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> Can we move the github PR discussions away to a different list...
>
> I suggest we create a list called hacking@activemq.apache.org
>
> We could use it for all the github PRs notifications.. and eventually
> low level discussions.
>
> We should still keep general discussions on the dev list.
>
>
>
> That would probably improve communication style and decrease noise.
>
>
>
>
>
> And.. do I need a VOTE for that? or just consensus here?
>
--
Tim Bish
twitter: @tabish121
blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/