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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> on 2020/09/08 08:29:02 UTC
Status of converting icons to SVG
Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/
netbeans/commit/
51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported conversion
of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at least those
visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka
Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an
"icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per cluster,
the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed. Contributing
icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
-jt
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Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Pete Whelpton <pe...@gmail.com>.
I've tried both Inkscape and Affinity - both are great pieces of software,
but not ideal for this job, as the artboard functionality of AI is great to
be able to look at all icons in a NB module at a time to ensure
consistent design (and tracing is much easier/intuitive in AI).
TBH, there is far too much work here for just Eirik and I - what Jaroslav
suggests, a draw-athon involving more community members would be a great
idea. Many NB icons are duplicated across modules, so if we got enough
people, and each person took a module containing a lot of icons that are
recycled, we could blitz a big chunk of this work...
P
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM John <jo...@lemckes.com> wrote:
> Hey Pete,
>
>
> Have you considered inkscape? ( https://inkscape.org )
>
> I've not used Illustrator, so have no basis for comparison, but have
> done quite a lot of simple designs with inkscape and found it useful.
>
>
> Have Fun
>
> jostle
>
>
> On 2020/09/08 08:38:36, Pete Whelpton <p....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Jaroslav et al,>
> >
> > The JIRA ticket is here:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617>
> >
> > In the comments, you'll see attached the .ai files for the icons I
> redrew>
> > as SVG. The following NB modules are covered:>
> >
> > ide.editor.bookmarks.ai>
> > ide.editor.macros.ai>
> > ide.seperator.breadcrumbs.ai>
> >
> > these are on top of the icons Eirik had already converted.>
> >
> > Unfortunately, I left my job where I had access to Illustrator, and
> haven't>
> > fancied paying £30/month for it :( I also 99% finished redrawing the>
> > ide.editor module, which contains many icons reused all over NB, so
> would>
> > have checked off a big chunk, but I stupidly left .ai file on my file>
> > storage in my old job, and the thought of redoing all of that
> work.... argh!>
> >
> > If I ever get access to AI again, I'll try and help out with some more.>
> > Would love to see this finished :)>
> >
> >
> > Pete>
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:>
> >
> > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.>
> > >>
> > > It is a while since the [support for SVG
> icons](https://github.com/apache/>
> > > netbeans/commit/ <https://github.com/apache/netbeans/commit/>>
> > >
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)>
>
>
> > >>
> > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> around?>
> > >>
> > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported>
> > > conversion>
> > > of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at
> least>
> > > those>
> > > visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?>
> > >>
> > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community
> like Jirka>
> > > Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion?
> Have an>
> > > "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?>
> > >>
> > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per>
> > > cluster,>
> > > the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.>
> > > Contributing>
> > > icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?>
> > >>
> > > -jt>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------->
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org>
> > >>
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:>
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 12:51, John <jo...@lemckes.com> wrote:
> Have you considered inkscape? ( https://inkscape.org )
I'm a great fan of Inkscape, although it should be noted that on
certain systems NetBeans will crash it! :-) Can't run both together
here.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by John <jo...@lemckes.com>.
Hey Pete,
Have you considered inkscape? ( https://inkscape.org )
I've not used Illustrator, so have no basis for comparison, but have
done quite a lot of simple designs with inkscape and found it useful.
Have Fun
jostle
On 2020/09/08 08:38:36, Pete Whelpton <p....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jaroslav et al,>
>
> The JIRA ticket is here:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617>
>
> In the comments, you'll see attached the .ai files for the icons I
redrew>
> as SVG. The following NB modules are covered:>
>
> ide.editor.bookmarks.ai>
> ide.editor.macros.ai>
> ide.seperator.breadcrumbs.ai>
>
> these are on top of the icons Eirik had already converted.>
>
> Unfortunately, I left my job where I had access to Illustrator, and
haven't>
> fancied paying £30/month for it :( I also 99% finished redrawing the>
> ide.editor module, which contains many icons reused all over NB, so
would>
> have checked off a big chunk, but I stupidly left .ai file on my file>
> storage in my old job, and the thought of redoing all of that
work.... argh!>
>
> If I ever get access to AI again, I'll try and help out with some more.>
> Would love to see this finished :)>
>
>
> Pete>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:>
>
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.>
> >>
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG
icons](https://github.com/apache/>
> > netbeans/commit/ <https://github.com/apache/netbeans/commit/>>
> >
51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)>
> >>
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
around?>
> >>
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported>
> > conversion>
> > of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at
least>
> > those>
> > visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?>
> >>
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community
like Jirka>
> > Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion?
Have an>
> > "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?>
> >>
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per>
> > cluster,>
> > the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.>
> > Contributing>
> > icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?>
> >>
> > -jt>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------->
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org>
> >>
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:>
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
Thanks for your efforts, Pete!
If we end up doing some kind of "icon hackathon", I'm happy to contribute a few one-month Illustrator licenses...
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Whelpton <pe...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:39 AM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi Jaroslav et al,
The JIRA ticket is here: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617
In the comments, you'll see attached the .ai files for the icons I redrew as SVG. The following NB modules are covered:
ide.editor.bookmarks.ai
ide.editor.macros.ai
ide.seperator.breadcrumbs.ai
these are on top of the icons Eirik had already converted.
Unfortunately, I left my job where I had access to Illustrator, and haven't fancied paying £30/month for it :( I also 99% finished redrawing the ide.editor module, which contains many icons reused all over NB, so would have checked off a big chunk, but I stupidly left .ai file on my file storage in my old job, and the thought of redoing all of that work.... argh!
If I ever get access to AI again, I'll try and help out with some more.
Would love to see this finished :)
Pete
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG
> icons](https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> <https://github.com/apache/netbeans/commit/>
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b1170
> 2d02c9fd)
>
> landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were
> some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> converted?
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> contributed.
> Contributing
> icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
>
> -jt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Pete Whelpton <pe...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jaroslav et al,
The JIRA ticket is here: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617
In the comments, you'll see attached the .ai files for the icons I redrew
as SVG. The following NB modules are covered:
ide.editor.bookmarks.ai
ide.editor.macros.ai
ide.seperator.breadcrumbs.ai
these are on top of the icons Eirik had already converted.
Unfortunately, I left my job where I had access to Illustrator, and haven't
fancied paying £30/month for it :( I also 99% finished redrawing the
ide.editor module, which contains many icons reused all over NB, so would
have checked off a big chunk, but I stupidly left .ai file on my file
storage in my old job, and the thought of redoing all of that work.... argh!
If I ever get access to AI again, I'll try and help out with some more.
Would love to see this finished :)
Pete
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/
> netbeans/commit/ <https://github.com/apache/netbeans/commit/>
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
>
> landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> conversion
> of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at least
> those
> visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka
> Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an
> "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster,
> the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
> Contributing
> icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
>
> -jt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com>.
I have that a shot to - probably put more time into it than I should have.
The killer is identifying gradients in order to detect shapes that are
contiguous. Best results were simply finding a combination of channels in
one or another color space that got you the most contiguous pixels up to a
threshold. There are some neat matrix multiplication tricks you can do to
get a gradient to cancel itself out, IF it is linear and IF you test
folding it on itself at close to the right angle.
Some icons got to a tolerable starting place for editing using a hacked
copy of potracej. But I wouldn’t say there’s much bang for the buck in
trying to automate it, it’s just fun to play with.
Re the issue of multiple designers, I think the trick does not have to be
one designer does it, but to have a style guide - a sort of shared
vocabulary of shapes, shadow thicknesses and angles, and color palettes.
Funny, I wish Imagine were closer to really usable - the thing I’m really
after with that is the thing I’ve wanted since I designed a lot of icons
for NetBeans in ’99 (most soon replaced when Sun mandated everything had to
have the Metal “flush 3D” look: I.e. an easy way to build up libraries for
reusable visual elements that are exactly the kind of vocabulary I’m
talking about.
-Tim
On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:00 PM Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
> I've tried various automated approaches to vectorizing the icons--they
> don't produce very good results. Vectorizing algorithms don't work well for
> low-resolution images (16x16 in this case), and pixel art scaling
> algorithms (e.g. xBRZ or Kopf-Lischinski) don't work well for anti-aliased
> images (as our bitmap icons are).
>
>
>
> See for example https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/icons2xBRZ.html
> , which used the xBRZ algorithm.
>
>
>
> -- Eirik
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Eric Bresie <eb...@gmail.com>
>
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:20 AM
>
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
>
>
> Was just looking around and saw this link [1]. Seems to favor Inkscape but
> there may also be ways to leverage gimp (another popular graphics tool -
> not specifically vector based but has some abilities to export with a
> little work).
>
>
>
> [1] https://askubuntu.com/questions/301540/export-image-as-svg-in-gimp
>
>
>
> Eric Bresie
>
> Ebresie@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On September 13, 2020 at 1:47:26 AM CDT, Jaroslav Tulach <
> jaroslav.tulach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Eirik,
>
> > thank you for your reply and these lists...
>
> >
>
> > > [2]
>
> > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
>
> > > html [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> >
>
> > ...they are helpful. There was a question about the amount of NetBeans
>
> > icons to redraw inside of OracleLabs and it is great there already is an
> answer.
>
> >
>
> > > Graphic designers on UpWork ...
>
> > > ... crowdsourced effort ...
>
> > > ... the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort ...
>
> >
>
> > Apache can certainly accept donations. If you guys organize a
>
> > crowdfounding effort and use the money to draw icons that are then
>
> > donated to Apache, then great!
>
> >
>
> > The effort would have to be supported by users of NetBeans, not
>
> > developers - at least that's what I get from comments like the one by
> Matthias:
>
> >
>
> > > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the
>
> > > code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> >
>
> > I also consider it unfair to pay a designer, but not pay me as an
>
> > architect
>
> > ;-) But if somebody wants to donate the money, then be it!
>
> >
>
> > > how to draw icons in
>
> > > Illustrator
>
> >
>
> > Again, if somebody pays for that fun, be it. However as others noted,
>
> > we are Apache and as such it would be better to adhere to open source
>
> > style. No Adobe, please, try [Apache
>
> > Draw](https://www.openoffice.org/) or at least [Inkscape](
> https://inkscape.org/).
>
> >
>
> > -jt
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > PS: A note on design...
>
> >
>
> > > If many people are working on the effort, a single
>
> > > > person will still ...
>
> > > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard
>
> >
>
> > People used to claim that [design cannot be done in a
>
> > committee](http:// wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Teamwork). NetBeans is a
>
> > proof that it can be done - one just need to sit down and [specify
>
> > guidelines](http://wiki.apidesign.org/
>
> > wiki/API_Design_Checklist).
>
> >
>
> > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets
>
> >
>
> > I believe there are common meta-design principles behind API design
>
> > and UI/ icon design. As such guidelines (like
>
> > https://material.io/design/guidelines-overview) could help. Of course,
>
> > there is an overhead to it, but when the scale is large (there cannot be
> a single designer for all Android apps, right?), there is no other way to
> move forward anyway.
>
> >
>
> > Dne úterý 8. září 2020 19:14:41 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a):
>
> > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
>
> > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
>
> > > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>
> > >
>
> > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
>
> > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
>
> > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
>
> > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons that
> should be converted [2].
>
> > > Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon
>
> > > to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface,
>
> > > if the first project is a success.
>
> > >
>
> > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
>
> > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
>
> > > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617.
>
> > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
>
> > >
>
> > > Some issues to consider:
>
> > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
>
> > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs. * In the
>
> > > long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred icons,
>
> > > maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with a
>
> > > volunteer effort. * If too many different people work on this, we
>
> > > will get a hodgepodge of different icon styles. * Normally, cosmetic
>
> > > issues are not very important. But in this case, the purpose of the
>
> > > effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is actually a
>
> > > primary concern. * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of
>
> > > icon-drawing work in Illustrator (which I already had some
>
> > > experience
>
> > > with) before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If
>
> > > multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to
>
> > > go through this learning curve. * You often end up copying and
>
> > > pasting shapes between different icons. If many people are working
>
> > > on the effort, they will end up redrawing shapes that others have
>
> > > already drawn. * There are lots of little issues that contributors
>
> > > will get wrong--e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A
>
> > > lot of familiarity with the drawing software is needed. * If many
>
> > > people are working on the effort, a single person will still end up
>
> > > having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning them up
>
> > > to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the simpler icons
>
> > > (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing the icon
> itself.
>
> > >
>
> > > -- Eirik
>
> > > [1] See
>
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
>
> > > %29+imp rovements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png [2]
>
> > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
>
> > > html [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> > >
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
>
> > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
>
> > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
>
> > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> > >
>
> > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> > >
>
> > > It is a while since the [support for SVG
>
> > > icons](https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
>
> > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11
>
> > > 702d02c
>
> > > 9fd) landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> around?
>
> > >
>
> > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
>
> > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were
>
> > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> converted?
>
> > >
>
> > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
>
> > > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
>
> > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> > >
>
> > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
>
> > > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
>
> > > Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
>
> > >
>
> > > -jt
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> >
>
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --
http://timboudreau.com
RE: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
I've tried various automated approaches to vectorizing the icons--they don't produce very good results. Vectorizing algorithms don't work well for low-resolution images (16x16 in this case), and pixel art scaling algorithms (e.g. xBRZ or Kopf-Lischinski) don't work well for anti-aliased images (as our bitmap icons are).
See for example https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/icons2xBRZ.html , which used the xBRZ algorithm.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Bresie <eb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:20 AM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Was just looking around and saw this link [1]. Seems to favor Inkscape but there may also be ways to leverage gimp (another popular graphics tool - not specifically vector based but has some abilities to export with a little work).
[1] https://askubuntu.com/questions/301540/export-image-as-svg-in-gimp
Eric Bresie
Ebresie@gmail.com
> On September 13, 2020 at 1:47:26 AM CDT, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Eirik,
> thank you for your reply and these lists...
>
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > html [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> ...they are helpful. There was a question about the amount of NetBeans
> icons to redraw inside of OracleLabs and it is great there already is an answer.
>
> > Graphic designers on UpWork ...
> > ... crowdsourced effort ...
> > ... the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort ...
>
> Apache can certainly accept donations. If you guys organize a
> crowdfounding effort and use the money to draw icons that are then
> donated to Apache, then great!
>
> The effort would have to be supported by users of NetBeans, not
> developers - at least that's what I get from comments like the one by Matthias:
>
> > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the
> > code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I also consider it unfair to pay a designer, but not pay me as an
> architect
> ;-) But if somebody wants to donate the money, then be it!
>
> > how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator
>
> Again, if somebody pays for that fun, be it. However as others noted,
> we are Apache and as such it would be better to adhere to open source
> style. No Adobe, please, try [Apache
> Draw](https://www.openoffice.org/) or at least [Inkscape](https://inkscape.org/).
>
> -jt
>
>
> PS: A note on design...
>
> > If many people are working on the effort, a single
> > > person will still ...
> > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard
>
> People used to claim that [design cannot be done in a
> committee](http:// wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Teamwork). NetBeans is a
> proof that it can be done - one just need to sit down and [specify
> guidelines](http://wiki.apidesign.org/
> wiki/API_Design_Checklist).
>
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets
>
> I believe there are common meta-design principles behind API design
> and UI/ icon design. As such guidelines (like
> https://material.io/design/guidelines-overview) could help. Of course,
> there is an overhead to it, but when the scale is large (there cannot be a single designer for all Android apps, right?), there is no other way to move forward anyway.
>
> Dne úterý 8. září 2020 19:14:41 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a):
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons that should be converted [2].
> > Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon
> > to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface,
> > if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs. * In the
> > long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred icons,
> > maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with a
> > volunteer effort. * If too many different people work on this, we
> > will get a hodgepodge of different icon styles. * Normally, cosmetic
> > issues are not very important. But in this case, the purpose of the
> > effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is actually a
> > primary concern. * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of
> > icon-drawing work in Illustrator (which I already had some
> > experience
> > with) before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If
> > multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to
> > go through this learning curve. * You often end up copying and
> > pasting shapes between different icons. If many people are working
> > on the effort, they will end up redrawing shapes that others have
> > already drawn. * There are lots of little issues that contributors
> > will get wrong--e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A
> > lot of familiarity with the drawing software is needed. * If many
> > people are working on the effort, a single person will still end up
> > having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning them up
> > to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the simpler icons
> > (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > %29+imp rovements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > html [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG
> > icons](https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11
> > 702d02c
> > 9fd) landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
> > Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
> >
> > -jt
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
Re: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eric Bresie <eb...@gmail.com>.
Was just looking around and saw this link [1]. Seems to favor Inkscape but there may also be ways to leverage gimp (another popular graphics tool - not specifically vector based but has some abilities to export with a little work).
[1] https://askubuntu.com/questions/301540/export-image-as-svg-in-gimp
Eric Bresie
Ebresie@gmail.com
> On September 13, 2020 at 1:47:26 AM CDT, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Eirik,
> thank you for your reply and these lists...
>
> > [2] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
> > [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> ...they are helpful. There was a question about the amount of NetBeans icons
> to redraw inside of OracleLabs and it is great there already is an answer.
>
> > Graphic designers on UpWork ...
> > ... crowdsourced effort ...
> > ... the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort ...
>
> Apache can certainly accept donations. If you guys organize a crowdfounding
> effort and use the money to draw icons that are then donated to Apache, then
> great!
>
> The effort would have to be supported by users of NetBeans, not developers - at
> least that's what I get from comments like the one by Matthias:
>
> > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> > base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I also consider it unfair to pay a designer, but not pay me as an architect
> ;-) But if somebody wants to donate the money, then be it!
>
> > how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator
>
> Again, if somebody pays for that fun, be it. However as others noted, we are
> Apache and as such it would be better to adhere to open source style. No
> Adobe, please, try [Apache Draw](https://www.openoffice.org/) or at least
> [Inkscape](https://inkscape.org/).
>
> -jt
>
>
> PS: A note on design...
>
> > If many people are working on the effort, a single
> > > person will still ...
> > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard
>
> People used to claim that [design cannot be done in a committee](http://
> wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Teamwork). NetBeans is a proof that it can be done -
> one just need to sit down and [specify guidelines](http://wiki.apidesign.org/
> wiki/API_Design_Checklist).
>
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets
>
> I believe there are common meta-design principles behind API design and UI/
> icon design. As such guidelines (like https://material.io/design/guidelines-overview) could help. Of course, there is an overhead to it, but when the
> scale is large (there cannot be a single designer for all Android apps,
> right?), there is no other way to move forward anyway.
>
> Dne úterý 8. září 2020 19:14:41 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a):
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort and
> > have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional icon designer. I'd
> > be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], after
> > getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps $30-60/hour
> > (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this particular job). For an
> > initial effort, there are about 160 icons that should be converted [2].
> > Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon to do
> > another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface, if the first
> > project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617. I'm
> > swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. Programmers do
> > not always produce tasteful graphic designs. * In the long term, we'd want
> > to convert at least several hundred icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be
> > beyond what is possible with a volunteer effort. * If too many different
> > people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge of different icon styles. *
> > Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case, the
> > purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is
> > actually a primary concern. * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours
> > of icon-drawing work in Illustrator (which I already had some experience
> > with) before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If
> > multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to go
> > through this learning curve. * You often end up copying and pasting shapes
> > between different icons. If many people are working on the effort, they
> > will end up redrawing shapes that others have already drawn. * There are
> > lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong--e.g. how vertices
> > are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of familiarity with the drawing
> > software is needed. * If many people are working on the effort, a single
> > person will still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the
> > simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing
> > the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+imp
> > rovements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
> > [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/
> > netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c
> > 9fd) landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported conversion
> > of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at least
> > those visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka
> > Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an
> > "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
> > Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
> >
> > -jt
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Alessandro <al...@gmail.com>.
Hello all,
I support Erik’s plan.
Collaboration with https://opensourcedesign.net/ as pointed out by Neil
could be an alternative.
Kind Regards’
Alex
Il giorno mar 8 set 2020 alle 19:14 Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> ha
scritto:
> In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort
> and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional icon designer.
> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>
>
>
> In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], after
> getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps $30-60/hour
> (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this particular job). For an
> initial effort, there are about 160 icons that should be converted [2].
> Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon to do
> another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface, if the first
> project is a success.
>
>
>
> As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617. I'm
> swamped until February 2021, though...
>
>
>
> Some issues to consider:
>
> * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. Programmers
> do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
>
> * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred icons,
> maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with a volunteer
> effort.
>
> * If too many different people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge of
> different icon styles.
>
> * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case, the
> purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is
> actually a primary concern.
>
> * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work in
> Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I was fully
> "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people are working on
> the icons, each person will have to go through this learning curve.
>
> * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different icons. If
> many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing shapes
> that others have already drawn.
>
> * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong--e.g.
> how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of familiarity with the
> drawing software is needed.
>
> * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will still end
> up having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning them up to a
> consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the simpler icons (e.g. two
> rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing the icon itself.
>
>
>
> -- Eirik
>
> [1] See
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
>
> [2]
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
>
> [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
>
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
>
> Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
>
>
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
>
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/
> netbeans/commit/
>
>
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
>
> landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
>
>
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some
> (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
>
>
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka
> Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an
> "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
>
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
> Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
>
>
>
> -jt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
>
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
>
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
*--*
*Alessandro Falappa*
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>.
Hello Eirik,
thank you for your reply and these lists...
> [2] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
> [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
...they are helpful. There was a question about the amount of NetBeans icons
to redraw inside of OracleLabs and it is great there already is an answer.
> Graphic designers on UpWork ...
> ... crowdsourced effort ...
> ... the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort ...
Apache can certainly accept donations. If you guys organize a crowdfounding
effort and use the money to draw icons that are then donated to Apache, then
great!
The effort would have to be supported by users of NetBeans, not developers - at
least that's what I get from comments like the one by Matthias:
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I also consider it unfair to pay a designer, but not pay me as an architect
;-) But if somebody wants to donate the money, then be it!
> how to draw icons in
> Illustrator
Again, if somebody pays for that fun, be it. However as others noted, we are
Apache and as such it would be better to adhere to open source style. No
Adobe, please, try [Apache Draw](https://www.openoffice.org/) or at least
[Inkscape](https://inkscape.org/).
-jt
PS: A note on design...
> If many people are working on the effort, a single
> > person will still ...
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard
People used to claim that [design cannot be done in a committee](http://
wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Teamwork). NetBeans is a proof that it can be done -
one just need to sit down and [specify guidelines](http://wiki.apidesign.org/
wiki/API_Design_Checklist).
> * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets
I believe there are common meta-design principles behind API design and UI/
icon design. As such guidelines (like https://material.io/design/guidelines-overview) could help. Of course, there is an overhead to it, but when the
scale is large (there cannot be a single designer for all Android apps,
right?), there is no other way to move forward anyway.
Dne úterý 8. září 2020 19:14:41 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a):
> In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort and
> have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional icon designer. I'd
> be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>
> In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], after
> getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps $30-60/hour
> (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this particular job). For an
> initial effort, there are about 160 icons that should be converted [2].
> Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon to do
> another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface, if the first
> project is a success.
>
> As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617. I'm
> swamped until February 2021, though...
>
> Some issues to consider:
> * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. Programmers do
> not always produce tasteful graphic designs. * In the long term, we'd want
> to convert at least several hundred icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be
> beyond what is possible with a volunteer effort. * If too many different
> people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge of different icon styles. *
> Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case, the
> purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is
> actually a primary concern. * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours
> of icon-drawing work in Illustrator (which I already had some experience
> with) before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If
> multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to go
> through this learning curve. * You often end up copying and pasting shapes
> between different icons. If many people are working on the effort, they
> will end up redrawing shapes that others have already drawn. * There are
> lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong--e.g. how vertices
> are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of familiarity with the drawing
> software is needed. * If many people are working on the effort, a single
> person will still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the
> simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing
> the icon itself.
>
> -- Eirik
> [1] See
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+imp
> rovements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png [2]
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
> [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/
> netbeans/commit/
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c
> 9fd) landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported conversion
> of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at least
> those visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka
> Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an
> "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed.
> Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
>
> -jt
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
I left a comment--main point: I don't think we should be doing these one-by-one. This needs to be a batch effort. Otherwise icons will not end up looking consistent, and reviewing them will take as much time as drawing them.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 11:32 AM
To: dev <de...@netbeans.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hello Eirik,
since Saturday I was talking my son into redrawing some icons. Today he managed to convert two simple ones with InkScape. Let's try the classical PR review process on his icons: https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/2376
-jt
st 16. 9. 2020 v 19:16 odesílatel Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> napsal:
> > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the
> > code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort,
> each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be
> 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer.
> But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of
> mostly repetitive work.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
> using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be
> done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't
> grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other
> OSes could be color calibrated.
>
> I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to
> work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good
> enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
>
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
> would be great if other people say what they think.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's
> > enthusiastic support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to
> > having 4-5 committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the
> > future. It's worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
> >
> > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do
> > > a crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
> >
> > Main differences:
> > * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons,
> > ideally a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons.
> > While I'm sure we have several people here who could do a good job
> > with 20-30 icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> > * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the
> > designer, "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of.
> > Here are 20 examples that we have already converted. You get paid
> > when you have finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If
> > the project is a success, we might later try to raise funds to hire
> > you to convert another 700 icons."
> >
> > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > > scale
> > On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> > due to the sheer number of icons involved.
> >
> > > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > > not merged?
> > We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> > success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
> >
> > > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
> >
> > Here's how I imagine this would work:
> > 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> > GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> > retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> > under the Apache License".
> > 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> > recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> > 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> > organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> > solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> > Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> > actually get merged into NetBeans.
> > 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> > look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this
> > vote passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> > NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> > 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> > the same designer.
> >
> > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does
> > > not match?
> > Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> > Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> > rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would
> > be "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
> >
> > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> > Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> > discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
> >
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
> >
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> > - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> > the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> > rights?
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> >
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> >
> >
> > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> > >
> > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> > >
> > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons
> > > in Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > > 2617.
> > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> > >
> > > Some issues to consider:
> > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible
> > > with a volunteer effort.
> > > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing
> > > work in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with)
> > > before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If
> > > multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to
> > > go through this learning curve.
> > > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > > icons.
> > > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up
> > > redrawing shapes that others have already drawn.
> > > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much
> > > time as drawing the icon itself.
> > >
> > > -- Eirik
> > > [1] See
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Reti
> > > na
> > > %2
> > > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > > [2]
> > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> > >
> > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> > >
> > > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > > around?
> > >
> > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > > Were
> > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > > converted?
> > >
> > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community
> > > like Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> > >
> > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout
> > > per cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > > right?
> > >
> > > -jt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>.
Hello Eirik,
since Saturday I was talking my son into redrawing some icons. Today he
managed to convert two simple ones with InkScape. Let's try the classical
PR review process on his icons: https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/2376
-jt
st 16. 9. 2020 v 19:16 odesílatel Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> napsal:
> > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort,
> each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10
> different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no
> single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive
> work.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
> using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on
> these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At
> that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color
> calibrated.
>
> I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work,
> the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now
> graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
>
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would
> be great if other people say what they think.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic
> > support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5
> > committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's
> > worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
> >
> > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
> >
> > Main differences:
> > * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> > a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> > sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> > icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> > * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> > "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> > examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> > finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> > success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> > another 700 icons."
> >
> > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > > scale
> > On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> > due to the sheer number of icons involved.
> >
> > > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > > not merged?
> > We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> > success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
> >
> > > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
> >
> > Here's how I imagine this would work:
> > 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> > GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> > retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> > under the Apache License".
> > 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> > recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> > 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> > organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> > solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> > Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> > actually get merged into NetBeans.
> > 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> > look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote
> > passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> > NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> > 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> > the same designer.
> >
> > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > > match?
> > Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> > Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> > rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> > "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
> >
> > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> > Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> > discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
> >
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
> >
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
> > - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> > the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> > rights?
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> >
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
> > just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> >
> >
> > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> > >
> > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> > >
> > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > > 2617.
> > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> > >
> > > Some issues to consider:
> > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> > > a volunteer effort.
> > > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> > > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > > learning curve.
> > > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > > icons.
> > > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> > > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time
> > > as drawing the icon itself.
> > >
> > > -- Eirik
> > > [1] See
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > > %2
> > > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > > [2]
> > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> > >
> > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> > >
> > > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > > around?
> > >
> > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > > Were
> > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > > converted?
> > >
> > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> > >
> > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > > right?
> > >
> > > -jt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
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>
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>
RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
> Do we have already considered solutions like Nucleo or Streamline, Icons8, FluentIconsByMicrosoft?
See https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+improvements :
"[Option 2:] Find replacement icons in an existing icon font library. Emilian Bold tried this approach and documented it at https://jaxenter.com/netbeans/netbeans-retina . Some manual work is included, but not as much as drawing new icons from scratch. The downside is that (1) quite a few NetBeans icons will have no suitable replacement in an existing font library, (2) icon font libraries yield monochromatic icons only, sacrificing the color of the old icons for an improvement in resolution, and (3) the style of new icons would appear mismatched next to old ones."
The approach we have now started (with https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/2387 ) is to start redrawing a subset of NetBeans icons in SVG using the existing bitmap icons as a base--keeping the basic shapes and color scheme with some modernizations, according to the style guide at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617 .
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: David Schulz <he...@raiken.de>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2020 5:31 AM
To: Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>; dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Thanks for adding me to the discussion @Christian Lenz, and hello into the void!
Do we have already considered solutions like Nucleo or Streamline, Icons8, FluentIconsByMicrosoft?
We could use one of them as a base layer for new icons. If something isn't included, we could quickly build a new one based on the existing assets and individual needs.
All the best,
Dave
--
uxactly GmbH | raiken.de
system design thinking
Kurfürstendamm 28
10719 Berlin
Tel: 0174 933 85 36
Mail: david@uxact.ly
Skype: raiken@live.de
LinkedIn | Xing
From: Christian Lenz
Sent: Donnerstag, 17. September 2020 13:07
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; David Schulz
Subject: AW: Status of converting icons to SVG
I know a good UX and UI guy, it is david who created the logo for us. But yes I don’t think that he will do it for free. But to have a single designer for the Icons and the overall stuff is better than to have 10 designer for the same thing. https://www.raiken.studio/
Cheers
Chris
Von: Eirik Bakke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. September 2020 19:16
An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive work.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi,
I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated.
I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic
> support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5
> committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's
> worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
>
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> Main differences:
> * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> another 700 icons."
>
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> due to the sheer number of icons involved.
>
> > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged?
> We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
>
> > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
>
> Here's how I imagine this would work:
> 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> under the Apache License".
> 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> actually get merged into NetBeans.
> 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote
> passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> the same designer.
>
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
>
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
>
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
> - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> rights?
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> match?
>
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
> just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > 2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> > a volunteer effort.
> > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > learning curve.
> > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > icons.
> > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time
> > as drawing the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > %2
> > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > right?
> >
> > -jt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by David Schulz <he...@raiken.de>.
Thanks for adding me to the discussion @Christian Lenz, and hello into the void!
Do we have already considered solutions like Nucleo or Streamline, Icons8, FluentIconsByMicrosoft?
We could use one of them as a base layer for new icons. If something isn't included, we could quickly build a new one based on the existing assets and individual needs.
All the best,
Dave
--
uxactly GmbH | raiken.de
system design thinking
Kurfürstendamm 28
10719 Berlin
Tel: 0174 933 85 36
Mail: david@uxact.ly
Skype: raiken@live.de
LinkedIn | Xing
From: Christian Lenz
Sent: Donnerstag, 17. September 2020 13:07
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; David Schulz
Subject: AW: Status of converting icons to SVG
I know a good UX and UI guy, it is david who created the logo for us. But yes I don’t think that he will do it for free. But to have a single designer for the Icons and the overall stuff is better than to have 10 designer for the same thing. https://www.raiken.studio/
Cheers
Chris
Von: Eirik Bakke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. September 2020 19:16
An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive work.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi,
I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated.
I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic
> support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5
> committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's
> worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
>
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> Main differences:
> * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> another 700 icons."
>
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> due to the sheer number of icons involved.
>
> > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged?
> We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
>
> > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
>
> Here's how I imagine this would work:
> 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> under the Apache License".
> 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> actually get merged into NetBeans.
> 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote
> passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> the same designer.
>
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
>
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
>
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
> - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> rights?
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> match?
>
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
> just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > 2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> > a volunteer effort.
> > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > learning curve.
> > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > icons.
> > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time
> > as drawing the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > %2
> > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > right?
> >
> > -jt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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> >
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AW: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
I know a good UX and UI guy, it is david who created the logo for us. But yes I don’t think that he will do it for free. But to have a single designer for the Icons and the overall stuff is better than to have 10 designer for the same thing. https://www.raiken.studio/
Cheers
Chris
Von: Eirik Bakke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. September 2020 19:16
An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive work.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi,
I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated.
I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic
> support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5
> committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's
> worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
>
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> Main differences:
> * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> another 700 icons."
>
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> due to the sheer number of icons involved.
>
> > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged?
> We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
>
> > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
>
> Here's how I imagine this would work:
> 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> under the Apache License".
> 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> actually get merged into NetBeans.
> 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote
> passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> the same designer.
>
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
>
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
>
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
> - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> rights?
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> match?
>
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
> just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > 2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> > a volunteer effort.
> > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > learning curve.
> > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > icons.
> > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time
> > as drawing the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > %2
> > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > right?
> >
> > -jt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive work.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi,
I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated.
I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic
> support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5
> committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's
> worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
>
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> Main differences:
> * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> another 700 icons."
>
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> due to the sheer number of icons involved.
>
> > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged?
> We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
>
> > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
>
> Here's how I imagine this would work:
> 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> under the Apache License".
> 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> actually get merged into NetBeans.
> 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote
> passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> the same designer.
>
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> > match?
> Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
>
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
>
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
> - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> rights?
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> match?
>
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
> just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it
> > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover
> > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > 2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> > a volunteer effort.
> > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > hodgepodge of different icon styles.
> > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > learning curve.
> > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > icons.
> > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For
> > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time
> > as drawing the icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina
> > %2
> > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.
> > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > right?
> >
> > -jt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
Sorry, I was referring to the crowd that "is using vector drawing software for the first time". There are obviously also plenty of people who uses Inkscape and have used it professionally for many years.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 3:06 PM
To: dev <de...@netbeans.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020, 19:00 Eirik Bakke, <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
> Using Inkscape will be attractive to programmers (most of the people
> on this list), and people who are using vector drawing software for
> the first time. This crowd does _not_ tend to produce good-looking
> graphics--after all, it's not what they do for a living.
>
This is completely untrue! It's like saying NetBeans is free so not used by professionals.
And yes I'm annoyed by that comment. I regularly attend Libre Graphics Meeting, and have met many of the Inkscape devs as well as professionals and studios doing fantastic work with libre graphics tools. A number of whom, groups I've already mentioned, are very committed to improving design in open source software.
Neil
>
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Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020, 19:00 Eirik Bakke, <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
> Using Inkscape will be attractive to programmers (most of the people on
> this list), and people who are using vector drawing software for the first
> time. This crowd does _not_ tend to produce good-looking graphics--after
> all, it's not what they do for a living.
>
This is completely untrue! It's like saying NetBeans is free so not used by
professionals.
And yes I'm annoyed by that comment. I regularly attend Libre Graphics
Meeting, and have met many of the Inkscape devs as well as professionals
and studios doing fantastic work with libre graphics tools. A number of
whom, groups I've already mentioned, are very committed to improving design
in open source software.
Neil
>
RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
As for the choice of drawing software, this will likely be decided by whoever steps up to do the first batch of 50-60 icons.
That said, the choice of tool is primarily a question of which crowd to attract.
Using Inkscape will be attractive to programmers (most of the people on this list), and people who are using vector drawing software for the first time. This crowd does _not_ tend to produce good-looking graphics--after all, it's not what they do for a living.
Using Adobe Illustrator will be attractive to people who already have Illustrator installed on their machine--meaning they probably already know how to use it, and are probably graphic design professionals. This is exactly the crowd we'd like contributions from here.
Mandating Inkscape will also actively exclude graphic design professionals, who will find it unattractive to switch tools, when they already spent years learning Adobe software.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 4:10 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
On 9/9/20 2:02 PM, Matthias Bläsing wrote:
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
> using mac OS systems.
So did I: I won't repeat the number, but I was told by our systems guys that it cost an outrageous amount of money for a new guy in that department to sit down on his first day of work.
> Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines.
> They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time
> other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color
> calibrated.
>
> I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to
> work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good
> enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
>
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
> would be great if other people say what they think.
100% agree. If we need to expand the pool of contributors to people who work in /open source/ design, then let's try and do that. This is Apache, not Adobe.
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
There's also this thing (see email from Apache pasted below):
https://www.outreachy.org/communities/cfp/apache/
https://www.outreachy.org/communities/cfp/
"Interns work remotely with mentors from Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) communities on projects ranging from programming, user experience, documentation, illustration and graphical design, to data science."
The Apache email says: "We have funding secured for at least six interns"
Perhaps we could recruit a single design-oriented intern who would like to revamp the whole suite of NetBeans icons...
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Sicker <ma...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 2:00 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org; dev@diversity.apache.org
Subject: [ANN] Apache accepted to Outreachy; now seeking mentors and project proposals
Greetings,
The ASF is participating again in Outreachy, a program organized by the Software Freedom Conservancy for mentoring people who are under-represented in technology with internships working on open source software doing software development, documentation writing, data science work, design work, and other related tasks. Volunteers from these OSS communities sign up to mentor these interns by submitting project proposals [0][1][2]. For Apache, PMC members are all welcome to apply; others who wish to mentor for a PMC should seek lazy consensus from the specific PMC for that project to make sure the PMC has no objection to that individual mentoring for them. Mentors will also need to read and sign Outreachy's mentor agreement [3]. We have funding secured for at least six interns, but if we end up with more strong applicants than that, Outreachy sometimes allows additional interns from their general funding.
Important dates:
24 Sep 2020: ***last day to submit project proposals***
01 Oct 2020: contribution period begins for applicants
31 Oct 2020: contribution period ends
?? Nov 2020: intern selections
23 Nov 2020: interns announced
01 Dec 2020: internship begins
02 Mar 2020: internship ends
[0]: https://www.outreachy.org/communities/cfp/apache/
[1]: https://www.outreachy.org/mentor/mentor-faq/
[2]: https://www.outreachy.org/mentor/mentor-faq/#define-a-project
[3]: https://github.com/outreachy/website/blob/master/docs/mentor-agreement.md
--
Matt Sicker
Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
VP, Logging Services, ASF
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 4:10 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
On 9/9/20 2:02 PM, Matthias Bläsing wrote:
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
> using mac OS systems.
So did I: I won't repeat the number, but I was told by our systems guys that it cost an outrageous amount of money for a new guy in that department to sit down on his first day of work.
> Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines.
> They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time
> other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color
> calibrated.
>
> I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to
> work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good
> enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
>
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
> would be great if other people say what they think.
100% agree. If we need to expand the pool of contributors to people who work in /open source/ design, then let's try and do that. This is Apache, not Adobe.
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>.
On 9/9/20 2:02 PM, Matthias Bläsing wrote:
> I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
> base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
>
> I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
> using mac OS systems.
So did I: I won't repeat the number, but I was told by our systems guys
that it cost an outrageous amount of money for a new guy in that
department to sit down on his first day of work.
> Reasoning was, that their work could only be done
> on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp
> it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes
> could be color calibrated.
>
> I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work,
> the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now
> graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
>
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
> would be great if other people say what they think.
100% agree. If we need to expand the pool of contributors to people who
work in /open source/ design, then let's try and do that. This is
Apache, not Adobe.
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 9 Sep 2020, 20:02 Matthias Bläsing, <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
wrote:
> I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
> would be great if other people say what they think.
>
Well, I said it in the other thread, but in general I agree with your post
here. There are a few groups promoting open source design for open source
software, and I think we should try and engage / involve them. Designers
who understand and work with open source processes would be a positive IMO.
Neil
>
Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>.
Hi,
I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code
base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones
using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done
on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp
it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes
could be color calibrated.
I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work,
the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now
graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors.
I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it
would be great if other people say what they think.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's
> enthusiastic support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to
> having 4-5 committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the
> future. It's worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once,
> though.
>
> > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> Main differences:
> * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally
> a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm
> sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30
> icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
> * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer,
> "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20
> examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have
> finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a
> success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert
> another 700 icons."
>
> > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> > scale
> On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale,
> due to the sheer number of icons involved.
>
> > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> > not merged?
> We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a
> success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
>
> > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work
> > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
>
> Here's how I imagine this would work:
> 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a
> GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to
> retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced
> under the Apache License".
> 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork,
> recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
> 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the
> organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe
> solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the
> Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they
> actually get merged into NetBeans.
> 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually
> look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this
> vote passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into
> NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
> 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using
> the same designer.
>
> > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does
> > not match?
> Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source.
> Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional,
> rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be
> "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
>
> > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
> Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is
> discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hi,
>
> yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
>
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
> crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
>
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't
> scale
> - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
> not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
> the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain
> rights?
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
> match?
>
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to
> fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> > icon
> > designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
> >
> > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> > that
> > should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who
> > could
> > later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of
> > the
> > remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
> >
> > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons
> > in
> > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-
> > 2617.
> > I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
> >
> > Some issues to consider:
> > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible
> > with a
> > volunteer effort.
> > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a
> > hodgepodge
> > of different icon styles.
> > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this
> > case,
> > the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> > aesthetics
> > is actually a primary concern.
> > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing
> > work
> > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> > was
> > fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> > are
> > working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> > learning curve.
> > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> > icons.
> > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up
> > redrawing
> > shapes that others have already drawn.
> > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> > familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> > still
> > end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning
> > them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the
> > simpler
> > icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing
> > the
> > icon itself.
> >
> > -- Eirik
> > [1] See
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%2
> > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> > [2]
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.ht
> > ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
> >
> > Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
> >
> > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> > around?
> >
> > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion?
> > Were
> > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> > converted?
> >
> > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community
> > like
> > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
> >
> > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout
> > per
> > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> > right?
> >
> > -jt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5 committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though.
> What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
Main differences:
* This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30 icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them.
* The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer, "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20 examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert another 700 icons."
> With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale, due to the sheer number of icons involved.
> when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is not merged?
We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a success, we can raise more funds for additional icons.
> Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
Here's how I imagine this would work:
1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced under the Apache License".
2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork, recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work.
3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they actually get merged into NetBeans.
4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned.
5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using the same designer.
> What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not match?
Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source. Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional, rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be "arms length", and no one should feel cheated.
> So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is discussed here first and people actually like the approach.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hi,
yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
- when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not match?
So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional icon
> designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>
> In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons that
> should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could
> later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of the
> remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
>
> As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617.
> I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
>
> Some issues to consider:
> * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with a
> volunteer effort.
> * If too many different people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge
> of different icon styles.
> * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case,
> the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics
> is actually a primary concern.
> * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I was
> fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people are
> working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> learning curve.
> * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different icons.
> If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing
> shapes that others have already drawn.
> * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will still
> end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning
> them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the simpler
> icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing the
> icon itself.
>
> -- Eirik
> [1] See
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%2
> 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> [2]
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.ht
> ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> around?
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were
> some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> converted?
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> right?
>
> -jt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>.
Hi,
yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case:
What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a
crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans?
With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale
- when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is
not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as
the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights?
What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not
match?
So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail,
just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged.
Greetings
Matthias
Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke:
> In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the
> effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional
> icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>
> In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1],
> after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps
> $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this
> particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons
> that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who
> could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of
> the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
>
> As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a
> "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in
> Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617.
> I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
>
> Some issues to consider:
> * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets.
> Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
> * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred
> icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with
> a volunteer effort.
> * If too many different people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge
> of different icon styles.
> * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case,
> the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so
> aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
> * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work
> in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I
> was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people
> are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this
> learning curve.
> * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different
> icons. If many people are working on the effort, they will end up
> redrawing shapes that others have already drawn.
> * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong
> --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of
> familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
> * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will
> still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and
> cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the
> simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as
> drawing the icon itself.
>
> -- Eirik
> [1] See
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
> [2]
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
> [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
>
> Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
>
> It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](
> https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
> 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-
> 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
> landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying
> around?
>
> I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported
> conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were
> some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons
> converted?
>
> Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like
> Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the
> conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
>
> Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per
> cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people
> contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun,
> right?
>
> -jt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
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> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: Status of converting icons to SVG
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success.
As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS-2617. I'm swamped until February 2021, though...
Some issues to consider:
* Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs.
* In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with a volunteer effort.
* If too many different people work on this, we will get a hodgepodge of different icon styles.
* Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so aesthetics is actually a primary concern.
* From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this learning curve.
* You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different icons. If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing shapes that others have already drawn.
* There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong--e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of familiarity with the drawing software is needed.
* If many people are working on the effort, a single person will still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing the icon itself.
-- Eirik
[1] See https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png
[2] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.html
[3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/
-----Original Message-----
From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG
Hello everyone, hello Eirik.
It is a while since the [support for SVG icons](https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/
51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff-721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd)
landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying around?
I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? Were some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons converted?
Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"?
Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, right?
-jt
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