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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> on 2005/05/11 23:47:04 UTC
Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
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Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com>.
Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
> frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
> words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
> framework like Hivemind.
Well first let me say, I don't know enough about Hivemind to know that I
have a certain problem to address with it. The reason I'm looking into
this is because of how Tapestry help uncluter my code and allows me to
rapidly expand my program in a uniform manner. So that got me thinking
what other frameworks would take me even further into building better
programs. That's where I am. I'd like to organize my business logic. I
use Hibernate for my persistent layer, and Tapestry for my web ui, now
I'm thinking something to better focus my business logic would possibly
help even more.
More direct to the program I've written, I find putting all my config
info in the Tapestry global object may not be the best approach, but I'm
not sure. I currently load a properties file on startup into my global
object. Then access it from there. I'm looking at loading from a flat
file and the db, so I'd like a cleaner method of doing that. If you have
suggestions there I'd be happy to hear some.
Does any of this help explain?
>
> Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
> extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
> basic Tapestry tasks.
>
> There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
> for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
> integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
>
> Jamie
>
> On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
>
>> I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
>> So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
>> am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
>> this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
>> makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
>> combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
>> separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
>> uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
>> the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
>> would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
>> develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
>> use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
>> direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
>> probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>>
>> --
>> Justin Stanczak
>> Stanczak Group
>> 812-735-3600
>>
>> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
>> nothing."
>> Edmund Burke
>>
>> ..________...............__.................
>> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
>> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
>> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
>> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
>> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Mark Dillon <md...@gmail.com>.
Justin, if you're still interested in this, I kept some notes on my
experience porting to Appfuse/Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate. I posted
them at:
http://www.jroller.com/page/mdillon101/20050520#font_size_2_this_is
Cheers,
Mark
On 5/12/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
> Mark Dillon wrote:
>
> >On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Mark Dillon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'll preface this by saying that Hivemind is a fabulous framework. It
> >>>doesn't, however, have the level of integration with other popular
> >>>frameworks that Spring has. IMHO the Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate
> >>>combination is the way to go. Spring greatly simplifies the use of
> >>>Hibernate (or Ibatis, JDO, whatever ORM framework) in an application.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Why not just Hibernate and Spring? Doesn't Spring have a web ui? Just
> >>asking.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Spring does have a web framework yes. I actually have it on my todo
> >list to duplicate the web ui of one or more of my simple apps in
> >spring web but haven't gotten around to it yet. I think at this point
> >I'm going to wait for spring webflow to come to fruition and try it
> >then.
> >
> That looks nice. I just read some on it. It looks like it's ready, is it
> not?
>
> >That said, I'm a huge proponent of component driven web
> >frameworks (Apple webobjects style), so Tapestry just fits the best
> >for me, and I'm most productive with it. At the expense of looking
> >like a Matt Raible groupie ;), I would recommend reading Spring Live.
> >It has a great comparison of Struts vs. Tapestry vs. Spring Web,
> >tutorial style. It'll get you up and running in any of those
> >frameworks very quickly.
> >
> >
> >
> >>>I use spring to manage the configuration of the DAO and Service
> >>>layers, and Tapestry's localization features are perfect for managing
> >>>web layer stuff. I keep all of my configuration in .properties files
> >>>and load them from the classpath with a Spring
> >>>PropertyPlaceholderConfigurer. This way, I can keep these properties
> >>>files anywhere as long as they're in the classpath of application.
> >>>This is great for external configuration.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Sounds good, but does having all these frameworks just cause clutter? I
> >>don't know. I guess being new to these frameworks seems overwhelming.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >On the contrary, you will be amazed by the clutter that these
> >frameworks manage to eliminate. At the expense of a slightly larger
> >/lib directory (or maven repository), you get the advantage of far
> >fewer lines of manually written code. I've actually been tracking to
> >some extent the reduction of my code when using these frameworks.
> >I've been refactoring some of my older apps to use the appfuse
> >structure and build, and Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate. I've been able to
> >reduce my manually written code by more than 50% in a lot of cases.
> >Also, keep in mind that you no longer need a J2EE App Server. I can
> >distribute my apps with a tiny bundled servlet container like Tomcat
> >or Jetty, and they are just as robust and scalable as they would be in
> >Weblogic or Websphere.
> >
> >
> Well you got me. I'm going to have to download that appfuse and see what
> I can do.
>
> >
> >
> >>>As an aside, I've taken to using Matt Raible's fabulous appfuse
> >>>framework (with appgen) to kickstart my applications, and I think it
> >>>would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in this
> >>>combination. Hope this helps. Good luck!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Ya, I saw that appfuse. How well can you get that in Netbeans after
> >>generating an app? Again seems overwhelming to me right now. Yes all
> >>this helps. I'm a pretty picky person about adding new stuff without
> >>vetting over it.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Sorry, I stick to Eclipse and Idea. Haven't used NetBeans since the
> >Sun Forte days. I do hear that it's been greatly improved with the
> >latest release, and I'm sure that there are resources out there to
> >help you with doing this stuff in NetBeans. Actually, one of the
> >great things about appfuse is it's ability to be used outside of your
> >IDE. I used to do EVERYTHING in Eclipse. I now use Eclipse as a
> >glorified text editor, and do all building/testing on the command line
> >with ant and appfuse's build file. It's very nice to have a somewhat
> >standardized build process that I no longer have to manage myself.
> >This is a very recent development for me. I had a bunch of problems
> >toggling between my windows desktop at work and my Mac powerbook at
> >home, so I just found it more consistent to stick to the command line.
> > Appfuse's ant targets and tests run just fine in eclipse or idea, as
> >long as you're using version 1.8+.
> >
> >
> Oh man, I just can't tell you how much I like NB's. I've used it forever
> and it keeps getting better. With 4.0 series they now build with ant. I
> can do a build on a webstart app and have it sign my jar and put all the
> files where I want. It is so sweet. But I've not really given Eclipse
> much time, I just like NB's so much I really don't feel the need. Anyway
> you can tell I like NB's.
>
> Well I'm going to hit the reading and try to hash this out. If you have
> more advice please feel free to share, you've been a great help. All
> this stuff looks nice when you read the site, but ya never know until
> you use it. There's so much out there you could spend all your
> development time reading. Thanks again.
>
> --
> Justin Stanczak
> Stanczak Group
> 812-735-3600
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> Edmund Burke
>
> ..________...............__.................
> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com>.
Mark Dillon wrote:
>On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Mark Dillon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'll preface this by saying that Hivemind is a fabulous framework. It
>>>doesn't, however, have the level of integration with other popular
>>>frameworks that Spring has. IMHO the Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate
>>>combination is the way to go. Spring greatly simplifies the use of
>>>Hibernate (or Ibatis, JDO, whatever ORM framework) in an application.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Why not just Hibernate and Spring? Doesn't Spring have a web ui? Just
>>asking.
>>
>>
>
>Spring does have a web framework yes. I actually have it on my todo
>list to duplicate the web ui of one or more of my simple apps in
>spring web but haven't gotten around to it yet. I think at this point
>I'm going to wait for spring webflow to come to fruition and try it
>then.
>
That looks nice. I just read some on it. It looks like it's ready, is it
not?
>That said, I'm a huge proponent of component driven web
>frameworks (Apple webobjects style), so Tapestry just fits the best
>for me, and I'm most productive with it. At the expense of looking
>like a Matt Raible groupie ;), I would recommend reading Spring Live.
>It has a great comparison of Struts vs. Tapestry vs. Spring Web,
>tutorial style. It'll get you up and running in any of those
>frameworks very quickly.
>
>
>
>>>I use spring to manage the configuration of the DAO and Service
>>>layers, and Tapestry's localization features are perfect for managing
>>>web layer stuff. I keep all of my configuration in .properties files
>>>and load them from the classpath with a Spring
>>>PropertyPlaceholderConfigurer. This way, I can keep these properties
>>>files anywhere as long as they're in the classpath of application.
>>>This is great for external configuration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Sounds good, but does having all these frameworks just cause clutter? I
>>don't know. I guess being new to these frameworks seems overwhelming.
>>
>>
>
>On the contrary, you will be amazed by the clutter that these
>frameworks manage to eliminate. At the expense of a slightly larger
>/lib directory (or maven repository), you get the advantage of far
>fewer lines of manually written code. I've actually been tracking to
>some extent the reduction of my code when using these frameworks.
>I've been refactoring some of my older apps to use the appfuse
>structure and build, and Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate. I've been able to
>reduce my manually written code by more than 50% in a lot of cases.
>Also, keep in mind that you no longer need a J2EE App Server. I can
>distribute my apps with a tiny bundled servlet container like Tomcat
>or Jetty, and they are just as robust and scalable as they would be in
>Weblogic or Websphere.
>
>
Well you got me. I'm going to have to download that appfuse and see what
I can do.
>
>
>>>As an aside, I've taken to using Matt Raible's fabulous appfuse
>>>framework (with appgen) to kickstart my applications, and I think it
>>>would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in this
>>>combination. Hope this helps. Good luck!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Ya, I saw that appfuse. How well can you get that in Netbeans after
>>generating an app? Again seems overwhelming to me right now. Yes all
>>this helps. I'm a pretty picky person about adding new stuff without
>>vetting over it.
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, I stick to Eclipse and Idea. Haven't used NetBeans since the
>Sun Forte days. I do hear that it's been greatly improved with the
>latest release, and I'm sure that there are resources out there to
>help you with doing this stuff in NetBeans. Actually, one of the
>great things about appfuse is it's ability to be used outside of your
>IDE. I used to do EVERYTHING in Eclipse. I now use Eclipse as a
>glorified text editor, and do all building/testing on the command line
>with ant and appfuse's build file. It's very nice to have a somewhat
>standardized build process that I no longer have to manage myself.
>This is a very recent development for me. I had a bunch of problems
>toggling between my windows desktop at work and my Mac powerbook at
>home, so I just found it more consistent to stick to the command line.
> Appfuse's ant targets and tests run just fine in eclipse or idea, as
>long as you're using version 1.8+.
>
>
Oh man, I just can't tell you how much I like NB's. I've used it forever
and it keeps getting better. With 4.0 series they now build with ant. I
can do a build on a webstart app and have it sign my jar and put all the
files where I want. It is so sweet. But I've not really given Eclipse
much time, I just like NB's so much I really don't feel the need. Anyway
you can tell I like NB's.
Well I'm going to hit the reading and try to hash this out. If you have
more advice please feel free to share, you've been a great help. All
this stuff looks nice when you read the site, but ya never know until
you use it. There's so much out there you could spend all your
development time reading. Thanks again.
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Mark Dillon <md...@gmail.com>.
On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
> Mark Dillon wrote:
>
> >I'll preface this by saying that Hivemind is a fabulous framework. It
> >doesn't, however, have the level of integration with other popular
> >frameworks that Spring has. IMHO the Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate
> >combination is the way to go. Spring greatly simplifies the use of
> >Hibernate (or Ibatis, JDO, whatever ORM framework) in an application.
> >
> >
> Why not just Hibernate and Spring? Doesn't Spring have a web ui? Just
> asking.
Spring does have a web framework yes. I actually have it on my todo
list to duplicate the web ui of one or more of my simple apps in
spring web but haven't gotten around to it yet. I think at this point
I'm going to wait for spring webflow to come to fruition and try it
then. That said, I'm a huge proponent of component driven web
frameworks (Apple webobjects style), so Tapestry just fits the best
for me, and I'm most productive with it. At the expense of looking
like a Matt Raible groupie ;), I would recommend reading Spring Live.
It has a great comparison of Struts vs. Tapestry vs. Spring Web,
tutorial style. It'll get you up and running in any of those
frameworks very quickly.
> >I use spring to manage the configuration of the DAO and Service
> >layers, and Tapestry's localization features are perfect for managing
> >web layer stuff. I keep all of my configuration in .properties files
> >and load them from the classpath with a Spring
> >PropertyPlaceholderConfigurer. This way, I can keep these properties
> >files anywhere as long as they're in the classpath of application.
> >This is great for external configuration.
> >
> >
> Sounds good, but does having all these frameworks just cause clutter? I
> don't know. I guess being new to these frameworks seems overwhelming.
On the contrary, you will be amazed by the clutter that these
frameworks manage to eliminate. At the expense of a slightly larger
/lib directory (or maven repository), you get the advantage of far
fewer lines of manually written code. I've actually been tracking to
some extent the reduction of my code when using these frameworks.
I've been refactoring some of my older apps to use the appfuse
structure and build, and Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate. I've been able to
reduce my manually written code by more than 50% in a lot of cases.
Also, keep in mind that you no longer need a J2EE App Server. I can
distribute my apps with a tiny bundled servlet container like Tomcat
or Jetty, and they are just as robust and scalable as they would be in
Weblogic or Websphere.
> >As an aside, I've taken to using Matt Raible's fabulous appfuse
> >framework (with appgen) to kickstart my applications, and I think it
> >would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in this
> >combination. Hope this helps. Good luck!
> >
> >
> Ya, I saw that appfuse. How well can you get that in Netbeans after
> generating an app? Again seems overwhelming to me right now. Yes all
> this helps. I'm a pretty picky person about adding new stuff without
> vetting over it.
Sorry, I stick to Eclipse and Idea. Haven't used NetBeans since the
Sun Forte days. I do hear that it's been greatly improved with the
latest release, and I'm sure that there are resources out there to
help you with doing this stuff in NetBeans. Actually, one of the
great things about appfuse is it's ability to be used outside of your
IDE. I used to do EVERYTHING in Eclipse. I now use Eclipse as a
glorified text editor, and do all building/testing on the command line
with ant and appfuse's build file. It's very nice to have a somewhat
standardized build process that I no longer have to manage myself.
This is a very recent development for me. I had a bunch of problems
toggling between my windows desktop at work and my Mac powerbook at
home, so I just found it more consistent to stick to the command line.
Appfuse's ant targets and tests run just fine in eclipse or idea, as
long as you're using version 1.8+.
> >Cheers,
> >Mark
> >
> >On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>No wait I think I misspoke. I meant Commons Configuration.
> >>
> >>Stanczak Group wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Really what I'm wanting to do can probably be address by just using
> >>>something like Commons Digester. But maybe using a framework like
> >>>Hivemind I could better organize my logic. Again, as you can tell I'm
> >>>just not understanding all the pieces.
> >>>
> >>>Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
> >>>>frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
> >>>>words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
> >>>>framework like Hivemind.
> >>>>
> >>>>Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
> >>>>extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
> >>>>basic Tapestry tasks.
> >>>>
> >>>>There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
> >>>>for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
> >>>>integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jamie
> >>>>
> >>>>On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
> >>>>>So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
> >>>>>am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
> >>>>>this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
> >>>>>makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
> >>>>>combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
> >>>>>separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
> >>>>>uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
> >>>>>the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
> >>>>>would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
> >>>>>develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
> >>>>>use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
> >>>>>direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
> >>>>>probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Justin Stanczak
> >>>>>Stanczak Group
> >>>>>812-735-3600
> >>>>>
> >>>>>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> >>>>>nothing."
> >>>>>Edmund Burke
> >>>>>
> >>>>>..________...............__.................
> >>>>>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> >>>>>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> >>>>>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> >>>>>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> >>>>>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Justin Stanczak
> >>Stanczak Group
> >>812-735-3600
> >>
> >>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> >>Edmund Burke
> >>
> >>..________...............__.................
> >>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> >>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> >>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> >>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> >>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Justin Stanczak
> Stanczak Group
> 812-735-3600
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> Edmund Burke
>
> ..________...............__.................
> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com>.
Mark Dillon wrote:
>I'll preface this by saying that Hivemind is a fabulous framework. It
>doesn't, however, have the level of integration with other popular
>frameworks that Spring has. IMHO the Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate
>combination is the way to go. Spring greatly simplifies the use of
>Hibernate (or Ibatis, JDO, whatever ORM framework) in an application.
>
>
Why not just Hibernate and Spring? Doesn't Spring have a web ui? Just
asking.
>I use spring to manage the configuration of the DAO and Service
>layers, and Tapestry's localization features are perfect for managing
>web layer stuff. I keep all of my configuration in .properties files
>and load them from the classpath with a Spring
>PropertyPlaceholderConfigurer. This way, I can keep these properties
>files anywhere as long as they're in the classpath of application.
>This is great for external configuration.
>
>
Sounds good, but does having all these frameworks just cause clutter? I
don't know. I guess being new to these frameworks seems overwhelming.
>As an aside, I've taken to using Matt Raible's fabulous appfuse
>framework (with appgen) to kickstart my applications, and I think it
>would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in this
>combination. Hope this helps. Good luck!
>
>
Ya, I saw that appfuse. How well can you get that in Netbeans after
generating an app? Again seems overwhelming to me right now. Yes all
this helps. I'm a pretty picky person about adding new stuff without
vetting over it.
>Cheers,
>Mark
>
>On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>No wait I think I misspoke. I meant Commons Configuration.
>>
>>Stanczak Group wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Really what I'm wanting to do can probably be address by just using
>>>something like Commons Digester. But maybe using a framework like
>>>Hivemind I could better organize my logic. Again, as you can tell I'm
>>>just not understanding all the pieces.
>>>
>>>Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
>>>>frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
>>>>words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
>>>>framework like Hivemind.
>>>>
>>>>Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
>>>>extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
>>>>basic Tapestry tasks.
>>>>
>>>>There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
>>>>for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
>>>>integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
>>>>
>>>>Jamie
>>>>
>>>>On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
>>>>>So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
>>>>>am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
>>>>>this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
>>>>>makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
>>>>>combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
>>>>>separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
>>>>>uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
>>>>>the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
>>>>>would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
>>>>>develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
>>>>>use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
>>>>>direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
>>>>>probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Justin Stanczak
>>>>>Stanczak Group
>>>>>812-735-3600
>>>>>
>>>>>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
>>>>>nothing."
>>>>>Edmund Burke
>>>>>
>>>>>..________...............__.................
>>>>>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
>>>>>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
>>>>>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
>>>>>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
>>>>>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Justin Stanczak
>>Stanczak Group
>>812-735-3600
>>
>>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
>>Edmund Burke
>>
>>..________...............__.................
>>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
>>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
>>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
>>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
>>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Mark Dillon <md...@gmail.com>.
I'll preface this by saying that Hivemind is a fabulous framework. It
doesn't, however, have the level of integration with other popular
frameworks that Spring has. IMHO the Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate
combination is the way to go. Spring greatly simplifies the use of
Hibernate (or Ibatis, JDO, whatever ORM framework) in an application.
I use spring to manage the configuration of the DAO and Service
layers, and Tapestry's localization features are perfect for managing
web layer stuff. I keep all of my configuration in .properties files
and load them from the classpath with a Spring
PropertyPlaceholderConfigurer. This way, I can keep these properties
files anywhere as long as they're in the classpath of application.
This is great for external configuration.
As an aside, I've taken to using Matt Raible's fabulous appfuse
framework (with appgen) to kickstart my applications, and I think it
would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in this
combination. Hope this helps. Good luck!
Cheers,
Mark
On 5/11/05, Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com> wrote:
> No wait I think I misspoke. I meant Commons Configuration.
>
> Stanczak Group wrote:
>
> >Really what I'm wanting to do can probably be address by just using
> >something like Commons Digester. But maybe using a framework like
> >Hivemind I could better organize my logic. Again, as you can tell I'm
> >just not understanding all the pieces.
> >
> >Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
> >>frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
> >>words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
> >>framework like Hivemind.
> >>
> >>Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
> >>extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
> >>basic Tapestry tasks.
> >>
> >>There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
> >>for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
> >>integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
> >>
> >>Jamie
> >>
> >>On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
> >>>So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
> >>>am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
> >>>this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
> >>>makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
> >>>combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
> >>>separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
> >>>uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
> >>>the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
> >>>would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
> >>>develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
> >>>use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
> >>>direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
> >>>probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Justin Stanczak
> >>>Stanczak Group
> >>>812-735-3600
> >>>
> >>>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> >>>nothing."
> >>>Edmund Burke
> >>>
> >>>..________...............__.................
> >>>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> >>>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> >>>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> >>>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> >>>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Justin Stanczak
> Stanczak Group
> 812-735-3600
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> Edmund Burke
>
> ..________...............__.................
> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com>.
No wait I think I misspoke. I meant Commons Configuration.
Stanczak Group wrote:
>Really what I'm wanting to do can probably be address by just using
>something like Commons Digester. But maybe using a framework like
>Hivemind I could better organize my logic. Again, as you can tell I'm
>just not understanding all the pieces.
>
>Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>
>
>>The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
>>frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
>>words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
>>framework like Hivemind.
>>
>>Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
>>extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
>>basic Tapestry tasks.
>>
>>There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
>>for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
>>integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
>>
>>Jamie
>>
>>On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
>>>So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
>>>am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
>>>this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
>>>makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
>>>combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
>>>separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
>>>uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
>>>the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
>>>would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
>>>develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
>>>use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
>>>direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
>>>probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Justin Stanczak
>>>Stanczak Group
>>>812-735-3600
>>>
>>>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
>>>nothing."
>>>Edmund Burke
>>>
>>>..________...............__.................
>>>./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
>>>/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
>>>\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
>>>.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
>>>........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Stanczak Group <ju...@stanczakgroup.com>.
Really what I'm wanting to do can probably be address by just using
something like Commons Digester. But maybe using a framework like
Hivemind I could better organize my logic. Again, as you can tell I'm
just not understanding all the pieces.
Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
> frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
> words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
> framework like Hivemind.
>
> Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
> extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for
> basic Tapestry tasks.
>
> There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
> for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
> integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
>
> Jamie
>
> On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
>
>> I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand things.
>> So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
>> am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
>> this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
>> makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
>> combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
>> separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
>> uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
>> the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
>> would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
>> develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
>> use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
>> direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
>> probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>>
>> --
>> Justin Stanczak
>> Stanczak Group
>> 812-735-3600
>>
>> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
>> nothing."
>> Edmund Burke
>>
>> ..________...............__.................
>> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
>> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
>> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
>> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
>> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Justin Stanczak
Stanczak Group
812-735-3600
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
..________...............__.................
./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
/...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
\....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
.\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
The questions are, "What problems are you trying to solve?" "Which
frameworks help you solve them best: Spring, Hivemind, none?" In other
words, you must have a need, a problem to solve that requires a
framework like Hivemind.
Tapestry Picasso uses Hivemind to give it greater flexibility,
extensibility, configurability. You can pretty much ignore it for basic
Tapestry tasks.
There have been some threads over the past few days about using Spring
for DB stuff, which (from what I read, not personal experience)
integrates well with Tapestry and Hivemind.
Jamie
On May 11, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Stanczak Group wrote:
> I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand
> things.
> So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
> am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind. Is
> this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
> makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
> combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
> separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
> uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
> the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
> would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
> develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
> use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
> direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
> probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>
> --
> Justin Stanczak
> Stanczak Group
> 812-735-3600
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> nothing."
> Edmund Burke
>
> ..________...............__.................
> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
RE: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
Posted by Adam Saltiel <ad...@btinternet.com>.
Hivemind stands on its own as a way of offering services into core
program functionality, therefore you should think of it as separate to
Tapestry. Tapestry is just one possible (sophisticated) way of offering
in services. But it is possible to think of use cases where you might
want, say persistence or security, without the need to deal with the
http request response cycle or with rendering of html.
Usecases would include, but not restricted to, dealing with asynchronous
messaging and transforming one set of data (maybe acquired from db)
dependant on another (say in the form of a message queue).
Adam Saltiel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stanczak Group [mailto:justin@stanczakgroup.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:47 PM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Understanding Hivemind and Tapestry?
>
> I've been looking at Hivemind, Spring, etc, trying to understand
things.
> So what I've came up with thus far is since I'm starting out fresh and
> am already using Tapestry, I would probably be wise to use Hivemind.
Is
> this correct? Then I see Tapestry is being built on Hivemind, so that
> makes me think it's a better choice. Now I'm trying to understand the
> combo of Tapestry and Hivemind. I'm guessing you still use Hivemind
> separate from Tapestry, and Tapestry is using Hivemind for it's own
> uses. But my question is will the addition of Hivemind to Tapestry add
> the features I'm looking for to Tapestry and I won't need Hivemind, or
> would I still be smart to go ahead and use Hivemind to help me better
> develop my software? Maybe I'm way off here. I think I understand the
> use of Hivemind, but I'm looking into the future and wondering what
> direction I should follow. If my questions don't make sense then I'm
> probably not understanding the use of Hivemind. Can someone direct me?
>
> --
> Justin Stanczak
> Stanczak Group
> 812-735-3600
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> nothing."
> Edmund Burke
>
> ..________...............__.................
> ./ _____/..____..._____/..|_..____...____....
> /...\..____/.__.\./....\...__\/.._.\./._..\....
> \....\_\..\..___/|...|..\..|.(..<_>.|.<_>..)....
> .\______../\___.._\__|../__|..\____/.\____/......
> ........\/.....\/.....\/..........................
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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