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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org> on 2004/05/17 15:28:38 UTC
storing RT on the wiki
as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for mailing
lists where things are out of mind once they leave our inboxes. to not
lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's to the wiki
instead, with an announce mail to the list.
for those convinced that the list is somehow superior for this task,
take a look at http://gorjuss.com/luvly/20040322-lion.html
>>>
# Tell me why you like wikis.
"Holy moley. That's a whole 'nother discussion in itself.
"Wiki, briefly, are the hottest thing in Social Software right now. All
this "friendster" stuff is important, but it's just a ruse. People don't
see the real revolution that wiki represents.
"Wiki is *terribly* important because it's the first public
communication system that is DOCUMENT based.
"Instant Messaging, E-Mail, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), Online Message
Boards, all this stuff-
"It's all *MESSAGE* based.
"It's a "quick signal." You send a message to someone, and they do
something different than they would have done before. "Someone."
Sometimes even a group of people. Maybe you're on a mailing list, or
something.
"After the message is done, it's *spent.* It's indexed by google, and
someone looking for something can find your message amidst a sea of
messages, and try to apply it to their situation.
"But wiki is *totally* different. It's *document* based. The fundamental
element of a wiki is the *document.* It's not a one-off message.
(Though, you CAN attach messages to the bottom of a wiki page. Very
common.) It's something that people can use, and refer back to, time and
time again.
"It's made to exist across time.
"And so, also, that means that you get a sense of "space." You can point
two wiki towards each other. You can't point two _mailing lists_ at each
other. To do that, you'd have to have some program that automatically
mails, every day, the same message over and over again. People would
hate that. You can't network mailing lists, without the aid of static
web pages. But then: People can't affect those, unless they are site
administrators. So you are really constrained with what you can do.
<<<
WDYT?
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: storing RT on the wiki
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
>> forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for mailing
>> lists where things are out of mind once they leave our inboxes. to not
>> lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's to the wiki
>> instead, with an announce mail to the list.
>
> storing the results (and progress) of a RT within a Wiki makes certainly
> sense, but nevertheless I think the discussions should be done through the
> mailing list.
I have no idea if people rather participate in mailing list
discussions or in the development of a wiki page. It probably
depends on personal preferences.
Typically, an RT is meant to encourage participation.
Do you think that some people won't add their $0.02 if the
content of an RT is not posted on the list but in the Wiki?
I think a major problem is that a document is not very well
suited as a discussion medium, but the mailing list is. So
maybe it's not the best practise to start an RT on the Wiki ...
-- Andreas
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Re: storing RT on the wiki
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>
>>> as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
>>> forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for
>>> mailing lists where things are out of mind once they leave our
>>> inboxes. to not lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's
>>> to the wiki instead, with an announce mail to the list.
>>
>>
>> storing the results (and progress) of a RT within a Wiki makes certainly
>> sense, but nevertheless I think the discussions should be done
>> through the
>> mailing list.
>
>
> and since no one takes the time to summarize the mailing list thread
> it wont get done. netiquette calls for summaries whether you use a
> wiki or not, but it gets rarely done. wikis are an efficient tool
> because they avoid redundant work. and developers are lazy^d^d^defficient
I guess it depends on the person ;-) For instance I started the "doco"
Wiki page and then people started to add their comments, but at the same
time they keep communicating on it through the mailing list.
I agree that things could be improved a lot, but I don't think the solution
is to move the "communication" from one place to the other.
I still believe that someday we will be able to do such things within Lenya:
Wiki doctype, aggregrating emails and IRC within Lenya, etc.
... and I am working on it :-)
Michi
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: storing RT on the wiki
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
>> forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for mailing
>> lists where things are out of mind once they leave our inboxes. to not
>> lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's to the wiki
>> instead, with an announce mail to the list.
>
> storing the results (and progress) of a RT within a Wiki makes certainly
> sense, but nevertheless I think the discussions should be done through the
> mailing list.
and since no one takes the time to summarize the mailing list thread it
wont get done. netiquette calls for summaries whether you use a wiki or
not, but it gets rarely done. wikis are an efficient tool because they
avoid redundant work. and developers are lazy^d^d^defficient
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: storing RT on the wiki
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
>> forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for mailing
>> lists where things are out of mind once they leave our inboxes. to
>> not lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's to the wiki
>> instead, with an announce mail to the list.
>
>
>
> storing the results (and progress) of a RT within a Wiki makes certainly
> sense, but nevertheless I think the discussions should be done through
> the
> mailing list.
+ 1
The thing is if someone replies in the wiki the ml will not be notified.
...so in the end it is hard to keep track of all rt discussions!
In special if it is a beginning of an idea not something like
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=103444028129281&w=2.
That would be better stored in a wiki ;-)
thorsten
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Re: storing RT on the wiki
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> as nicola says, "verba volant, scripta manent" (discussions get
> forgotten, only code remains). this holds especially true for mailing
> lists where things are out of mind once they leave our inboxes. to not
> lose valuable ideas, i strongly suggest we take RT's to the wiki
> instead, with an announce mail to the list.
storing the results (and progress) of a RT within a Wiki makes certainly
sense, but nevertheless I think the discussions should be done through the
mailing list.
>
> for those convinced that the list is somehow superior for this task,
> take a look at http://gorjuss.com/luvly/20040322-lion.html
I don't think it's about "versus the other" but as Tim pointed out some time
ago, it's about finding the right balance and I don't think an announcement
email is the right balance ;-)
Mailing Lists can be treated as content just as any other content. It
just needs
to be done.
Thanks
Michi
>
> >>>
> # Tell me why you like wikis.
>
> "Holy moley. That's a whole 'nother discussion in itself.
>
> "Wiki, briefly, are the hottest thing in Social Software right now.
> All this "friendster" stuff is important, but it's just a ruse. People
> don't see the real revolution that wiki represents.
>
> "Wiki is *terribly* important because it's the first public
> communication system that is DOCUMENT based.
>
> "Instant Messaging, E-Mail, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), Online Message
> Boards, all this stuff-
>
> "It's all *MESSAGE* based.
>
> "It's a "quick signal." You send a message to someone, and they do
> something different than they would have done before. "Someone."
> Sometimes even a group of people. Maybe you're on a mailing list, or
> something.
>
> "After the message is done, it's *spent.* It's indexed by google, and
> someone looking for something can find your message amidst a sea of
> messages, and try to apply it to their situation.
>
> "But wiki is *totally* different. It's *document* based. The
> fundamental element of a wiki is the *document.* It's not a one-off
> message. (Though, you CAN attach messages to the bottom of a wiki
> page. Very common.) It's something that people can use, and refer back
> to, time and time again.
>
> "It's made to exist across time.
>
> "And so, also, that means that you get a sense of "space." You can
> point two wiki towards each other. You can't point two _mailing lists_
> at each other. To do that, you'd have to have some program that
> automatically mails, every day, the same message over and over again.
> People would hate that. You can't network mailing lists, without the
> aid of static web pages. But then: People can't affect those, unless
> they are site administrators. So you are really constrained with what
> you can do.
> <<<
>
>
> WDYT?
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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