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Posted to l10n@openoffice.apache.org by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> on 2015/01/23 17:03:54 UTC
Website: proposal for new contributors page
I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page
dedicated to contributors.
For an example, please, see
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product
| Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors'
community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It
is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build
social bridges to the external world by providing concise information
about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
What do you think?
Regards,
Aivaras
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:26, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>
> Yet another point of view.
> Sounds reasonable, 'affordable', maintainable.
>
> A 'localized' mailing list was a wish of mine too, when I had to keep in touch with other translators in my language. Not to mention that the difficulties of using a foreign language on different levels or using it at all vanishes in a moment. Every sublist member understands 'natively' what the other is talking about.
>
>
As a grizzled elder of the community (*cough* *cough*), localised MLs work fine as long as they are actually populated with posts and as long as those posting do not effectively wall themselves off simply by focusing on their lists. The rule we had before was that all posts related to actual coding work being done on the application must be in English and must be on the general development lists. The problems we encountered before related not just to insularity and then alienation (which could very well result in fragmentation and even forking), but, again, the withering silence of a list left dead and forgotten by the absent community.
We knew of this possibility when we first started the NL programme, back in 2001 or so, with the creation of the Francophone list and project, itself a difficult negotiation. But our caution then was also arguably misplaced. When I set the structure up, I hated the idea of locality and nation and wanted to exploit the abstracting qualities of the Internet. So I emphasised language over region and nation (didn't matter where you were or your nationality; flags were not used and indeed nearly prohibited) and deprecated in-person meetings and events. By the time I realised just how vitally important such were, it was hard to swing the momentum around. What made me realise the importance of locality and humanity (sigh) was the success of those linguistic communities that also had strong physical presence, such as the German, Italian, Brazilian, to name but three; there were others, too.
Hence, my desire to develop local, human, in-person groups that complement lists and keep OpenOffice real.
best
louis
>
> On 2015-01-24 10:39, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>>> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>>>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?
>>
>> Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we have a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate which is internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian localization means that we should setup a mailing list for them; and that becomes the main point of contact). Some languages have more than one mailing list (one for project coordination and one for users, for example).
>>
>>> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
>>> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
>>> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
>>> would have to be empty.
>>
>> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If this is a page meant to be useful for the general international public, I think the best structure could be something like (for the language XX; something will apply to some languages only):
>> ---
>> - For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list] ([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])
>>
>> - To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list] or the [XX mailing list]
>>
>> - To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact
>>
>> You can also contact the following volunteers directly:
>>
>> Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact
>>
>> [...this is a variant of http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]
>>
>> Get involved
>>
>> - To join the XX translation team, write to ...
>> ---
>> This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific situation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea.
>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
Yet another point of view.
Sounds reasonable, 'affordable', maintainable.
A 'localized' mailing list was a wish of mine too, when I had to keep
in touch with other translators in my language. Not to mention that the
difficulties of using a foreign language on different levels or using it
at all vanishes in a moment. Every sublist member understands 'natively'
what the other is talking about.
On 2015-01-24 10:39, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?
>
> Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing
> lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we
> have a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate
> which is internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian
> localization means that we should setup a mailing list for them; and
> that becomes the main point of contact). Some languages have more than
> one mailing list (one for project coordination and one for users, for
> example).
>
>> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
>> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
>> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
>> would have to be empty.
>
> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If
> this is a page meant to be useful for the general international
> public, I think the best structure could be something like (for the
> language XX; something will apply to some languages only):
> ---
> - For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list]
> ([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])
>
> - To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list]
> or the [XX mailing list]
>
> - To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact
>
> You can also contact the following volunteers directly:
>
> Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact
>
> [...this is a variant of
> http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]
>
> Get involved
>
> - To join the XX translation team, write to ...
> ---
> This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much
> we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the
> volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific
> situation.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> I don't mind a NL credits page. That is fine. But I don't like the
> idea of steering volunteers away from community mailing lists.
We should take the habit of setting up a community mailing list for any
language. So, L10N-lt@openoffice.apache.org for Lithuanian, and so on.
We tend to avoid creation of "potentially useless" mailing lists, but
this is the same problem as vanishing volunteers.
So: it's OK for me to insist on an "official" contact that is an Apache
mailing list. But then we should immediately create one the moment we
get a new volunteer for a language. Putting an obstacle like "we want to
be sure that this mailing list will be used" is too much and will
reiterate the same problems Aivaras wants to solve.
Mailing lists can be monitored much better than individual accounts, and
we can check operations more easily. For example, when a new volunteer
for Croatian joins, I could direct her to L10N-hr@openoffice.apache.org
and be sure that relevant people read her message.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27 Jan 2015, at 14:52, Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>
>> idea of steering volunteers away from community mailing lists.
>
>
> What counts as "community mailing lists"? The idea, at the start, was actually to have a mailing list and just a mailing list. Not to resuscitate the Native Language Projects as such. And, what’s more, to approach the issue with a lot more sensitivity to what is wanted (collaborative community, not isolated groups slowly diminishing) and thus to do checks. But it was mainly about mail lists.
>
All the XXX@openoffice.apache.org mailing lists are community mailing lists.
Regards,
-Rob
> louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 27 Jan 2015, at 14:52, Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
> idea of steering volunteers away from community mailing lists.
What counts as "community mailing lists"? The idea, at the start, was actually to have a mailing list and just a mailing list. Not to resuscitate the Native Language Projects as such. And, what’s more, to approach the issue with a lot more sensitivity to what is wanted (collaborative community, not isolated groups slowly diminishing) and thus to do checks. But it was mainly about mail lists.
louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27 Jan 2015, at 12:03, Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Aivaras Stepukonis
>> <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry for the wrong link. Here's the right one:
>>> "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/participate/contact.html".
>>>
>>
>> A problem here is what happens with outdated information. We're
>> fortunate to have long-term contributors like you, taking ownership of
>> a translation. But in many cases someone helps with only a single
>> release and then they move on. Someone else helps with the next
>> release. And so on. So this contact information becomes out of date.
>>
>> This frustrates new volunteers more than it helps them, since their
>> emails can go unanswered and no one else in the project even knows
>> these new volunteers exist. This is why we encourage translation
>> volunteers to use this mailing list, l10n@openoffice.org, as their
>> first point of contact. This is where the translation community
>> lives. We should all be subscribed to this list. Of course, there
>> is nothing wrong with responding to a new volunteer's note and
>> following up via private email, or directing them to an NL mailing
>> list. That is fine.
>>
>> -Rob
>
> Right—This is why I suggested periodic reviews and also the consideration of what to do if the maintainer’s interest wanes or she goes away—both of which will lead to outdated and off-putting information. A periodic review can mitigate those problems.
>
Vacations, even time zone differences, lead to the same issue. Having
a mailing list as the first contact point is more responsive than a
personal email address.
I don't mind a NL credits page. That is fine. But I don't like the
idea of steering volunteers away from community mailing lists.
Note: We don't put personal contact anywhere else, not for marketing,
press, development, etc. With AOO we have consistently pointed
people to community destinations, websites, fora, mailing lists, etc.
Regards,
-Rob
> More generally, I’m in favour of tactics that may be temporary, ad hoc, local—but effective, at least for that moment and provided that the aftermath is less a ruin than a milestone.
>
>
> -louis
>>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Aivaras
>>>
>>> 2015.01.27 14:44, Aivaras Stepukonis rašė:
>>>
>>>> The HTML template of the new contact page for the native subsites is
>>>> complete. You may check it out at "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/support/".
>>>>
>>>> The link "Contact" has been added to the top navigation bar.
>>>>
>>>> Native volunteers, you are welcome to copy the template to your
>>>> ".../LocaleCode/participate/" and localize it there.
>>>>
>>>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>>>
>>>>> We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually, you
>>>>> may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I compared "contact_us.html" with ".../xxx/support/index.html" and the two
>>>> seem to overlap. Since ".../xxx/support/index.html" is localizable I gave it
>>>> priority. But we can easily change it if need be.
>>>>
>>>> 2015.01.26 20:47, Marcus rašė:
>>>>>
>>>>> please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on the
>>>>> dev list...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is perfectly understandable, it's just that joining that mailing list
>>>> would be a little too much for me at the moment. If some of you who partake
>>>> of that mailing list could circulate the ideas discussed here that would be
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Aivaras
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: l10n-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: l10n-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 27 Jan 2015, at 12:03, Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Aivaras Stepukonis
> <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry for the wrong link. Here's the right one:
>> "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/participate/contact.html".
>>
>
> A problem here is what happens with outdated information. We're
> fortunate to have long-term contributors like you, taking ownership of
> a translation. But in many cases someone helps with only a single
> release and then they move on. Someone else helps with the next
> release. And so on. So this contact information becomes out of date.
>
> This frustrates new volunteers more than it helps them, since their
> emails can go unanswered and no one else in the project even knows
> these new volunteers exist. This is why we encourage translation
> volunteers to use this mailing list, l10n@openoffice.org, as their
> first point of contact. This is where the translation community
> lives. We should all be subscribed to this list. Of course, there
> is nothing wrong with responding to a new volunteer's note and
> following up via private email, or directing them to an NL mailing
> list. That is fine.
>
> -Rob
Right—This is why I suggested periodic reviews and also the consideration of what to do if the maintainer’s interest wanes or she goes away—both of which will lead to outdated and off-putting information. A periodic review can mitigate those problems.
More generally, I’m in favour of tactics that may be temporary, ad hoc, local—but effective, at least for that moment and provided that the aftermath is less a ruin than a milestone.
-louis
>
>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>>
>> 2015.01.27 14:44, Aivaras Stepukonis rašė:
>>
>>> The HTML template of the new contact page for the native subsites is
>>> complete. You may check it out at "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/support/".
>>>
>>> The link "Contact" has been added to the top navigation bar.
>>>
>>> Native volunteers, you are welcome to copy the template to your
>>> ".../LocaleCode/participate/" and localize it there.
>>>
>>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>>
>>>> We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually, you
>>>> may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
>>>
>>>
>>> I compared "contact_us.html" with ".../xxx/support/index.html" and the two
>>> seem to overlap. Since ".../xxx/support/index.html" is localizable I gave it
>>> priority. But we can easily change it if need be.
>>>
>>> 2015.01.26 20:47, Marcus rašė:
>>>>
>>>> please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list.
>>>
>>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>>
>>>> Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on the
>>>> dev list...
>>>
>>>
>>> This is perfectly understandable, it's just that joining that mailing list
>>> would be a little too much for me at the moment. If some of you who partake
>>> of that mailing list could circulate the ideas discussed here that would be
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Aivaras
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: l10n-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: l10n-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
2015.01.27 19:03, Rob Weir rašė:
> A problem here is what happens with outdated information. We're
> fortunate to have long-term contributors like you, taking ownership of
> a translation. But in many cases someone helps with only a single
> release and then they move on. Someone else helps with the next
> release. And so on. So this contact information becomes out of date.
Undoubtedly, those are real questions. Similar concerns have led me to
think that the contact page should be used only when volunteers deem
their efforts to be sustainable (i.e., measurable in years).
2015.01.27 19:03, Rob Weir rašė:
> This frustrates new volunteers more than it helps them, since their
> emails can go unanswered and no one else in the project even knows
> these new volunteers exist. This is why we encourage translation
> volunteers to use this mailing list,l10n@openoffice.org, as their
> first point of contact. This is where the translation community
> lives. We should all be subscribed to this list. Of course, there
> is nothing wrong with responding to a new volunteer's note and
> following up via private email, or directing them to an NL mailing
> list. That is fine.
Engaging new volunteers wasn't quite the intention for the contact page,
though. The right venue for this would definitely be the mailing list.
My own motives for the proposal have sprung from my actions and needs as
a contributor. I've described them in an earlier e-mail to Andrea.
Basically, it's about 1) reinforcing a working contributor's credibility
when he/she is reaching out and promoting AOO and 2) increasing a
working contributor's chances to be seen and approached whatever the
unknown opportunities be.
Here's what I mean by no. 1
"https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1210965/AOO/150128%20Contact%20scenario%201.png"
and by no. 2
"https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1210965/AOO/150128%20Contact%20scenario%202.png".
I am of the thinking that for the general public mailing lists are
discouraging, to say the least, as they represent a "talking to a
device" type of communication. Being technically minded as I am, I am
still reluctant to give away my e-mail address to generic automated
services in cases when it should be a one-time person-to-person contact.
2015.01.27 20:41, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> More generally, I’m in favour of tactics that may be temporary, ad hoc, local—but effective, at least for that moment and provided that the aftermath is less a ruin than a milestone.
This is how I see it, too. That is why the initiative should be viewed
as an experiment with periodic appraisal and feedback.
2015.01.27 21:52, Rob Weir rašė:
> Note: We don't put personal contact anywhere else, not for marketing,
> press, development, etc. With AOO we have consistently pointed
> people to community destinations, websites, fora, mailing lists, etc.
Please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html".
I have nothing against that list. I hope they're good people helping
users and generating interest in AOO. For the listed people, the page
serves to expand their opportunities. It is a feature and a service to
them. Some contributors may want to be in a similar position. The
contact page would be an option for them.
2015.01.27 22:06, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> What counts as "community mailing lists"?
2015.01.28 01:22, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
> So: it's OK for me to insist on an "official" contact that is an
> Apache mailing list. But then we should immediately create one the
> moment we get a new volunteer for a language. Putting an obstacle like
> "we want to be sure that this mailing list will be used" is too much
> and will reiterate the same problems Aivaras wants to solve.
I'm all for mailing lists. At the same time I want to stress that the
idea behind the contact page was about increasing contributors'
opportunities for communication with the outside world, not with the
members of the community (for this we do have mailing lists). I'm
bringing this up because the issue tends to get encapsulated in
contributor-to-contributor relations. One source of inspiration for my
work is seeing AOO saturating the local scene (Lithuania). Another one
is getting feedback from that scene. That scene and the AOO project are
two different things. The contact page is an effort to bring them
together in my workspace as a contributor.
Regards,
Aivaras
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Aivaras Stepukonis
<as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the wrong link. Here's the right one:
> "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/participate/contact.html".
>
A problem here is what happens with outdated information. We're
fortunate to have long-term contributors like you, taking ownership of
a translation. But in many cases someone helps with only a single
release and then they move on. Someone else helps with the next
release. And so on. So this contact information becomes out of date.
This frustrates new volunteers more than it helps them, since their
emails can go unanswered and no one else in the project even knows
these new volunteers exist. This is why we encourage translation
volunteers to use this mailing list, l10n@openoffice.org, as their
first point of contact. This is where the translation community
lives. We should all be subscribed to this list. Of course, there
is nothing wrong with responding to a new volunteer's note and
following up via private email, or directing them to an NL mailing
list. That is fine.
-Rob
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
> 2015.01.27 14:44, Aivaras Stepukonis rašė:
>
>> The HTML template of the new contact page for the native subsites is
>> complete. You may check it out at "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/support/".
>>
>> The link "Contact" has been added to the top navigation bar.
>>
>> Native volunteers, you are welcome to copy the template to your
>> ".../LocaleCode/participate/" and localize it there.
>>
>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>
>>> We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually, you
>>> may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
>>
>>
>> I compared "contact_us.html" with ".../xxx/support/index.html" and the two
>> seem to overlap. Since ".../xxx/support/index.html" is localizable I gave it
>> priority. But we can easily change it if need be.
>>
>> 2015.01.26 20:47, Marcus rašė:
>>>
>>> please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list.
>>
>> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>>>
>>> Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on the
>>> dev list...
>>
>>
>> This is perfectly understandable, it's just that joining that mailing list
>> would be a little too much for me at the moment. If some of you who partake
>> of that mailing list could circulate the ideas discussed here that would be
>> great.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
Sorry for the wrong link. Here's the right one:
"http://www.openoffice.org/xx/participate/contact.html".
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.27 14:44, Aivaras Stepukonis rašė:
> The HTML template of the new contact page for the native subsites is
> complete. You may check it out at
> "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/support/".
>
> The link "Contact" has been added to the top navigation bar.
>
> Native volunteers, you are welcome to copy the template to your
> ".../LocaleCode/participate/" and localize it there.
>
> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>> We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually,
>> you may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
>
> I compared "contact_us.html" with ".../xxx/support/index.html" and the
> two seem to overlap. Since ".../xxx/support/index.html" is localizable
> I gave it priority. But we can easily change it if need be.
>
> 2015.01.26 20:47, Marcus rašė:
>> please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list.
> 2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>> Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on
>> the dev list...
>
> This is perfectly understandable, it's just that joining that mailing
> list would be a little too much for me at the moment. If some of you
> who partake of that mailing list could circulate the ideas discussed
> here that would be great.
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
The HTML template of the new contact page for the native subsites is
complete. You may check it out at "http://www.openoffice.org/xx/support/".
The link "Contact" has been added to the top navigation bar.
Native volunteers, you are welcome to copy the template to your
".../LocaleCode/participate/" and localize it there.
2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
> We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually, you
> may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
I compared "contact_us.html" with ".../xxx/support/index.html" and the
two seem to overlap. Since ".../xxx/support/index.html" is localizable I
gave it priority. But we can easily change it if need be.
2015.01.26 20:47, Marcus rašė:
> please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list.
2015.01.27 00:54, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
> Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on the
> dev list...
This is perfectly understandable, it's just that joining that mailing
list would be a little too much for me at the moment. If some of you who
partake of that mailing list could circulate the ideas discussed here
that would be great.
Regards,
Aivaras
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 26/01/2015 Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
> 1) How do we call the page:
> ... | Extend | Get Involved | Contact
> ... | Extend | Get Involved | Contributors
Contact is OK. Make sure you state clearly that generic bugs (like,
OpenOffice does not print) are not to be reported to you. You will still
get mails from people who will send their request to the first e-mail
address they find on the page... but maybe you will limit them.
> 2) How do we name the file of the page and where do we keep it:
> .../xx/contact/index.html
> .../xx/contributors/index.html
> .../xx/participate/contact.html
> .../xx/participate/contributors.html
I think .../xx/participate/contact.html is best. I would avoid too many
subdirs in xx.
> I would volunteer to prepare the English version of the page for
> inclusion in the xx package.
Great, thanks!
> I assume we don't need such a page for the
> main English website.
We have contact_us.html for that. We won't add this one. Actually, you
may send people to contact_us.html for unrelated reports.
> I also assume the page is completely optional,
Yes, correct.
Marcus is right in saying that some of this should be discussed on the
dev list... but if we are productive here, and people who regularly
commit to these areas of the site (which basically means Marcus and
sometimes me and occasionally others) are here... well, we can have
conversations here and interact there once changes are online.
Louis is also right in saying the the PMC task is to provide a good
environment for people to work in... but Aivaras, you have exactly the
same permissions I have on the website pages. So don't worry, go on and
you don't need formal approval by anyone for this kind of improvements.
At worst, someone will tell you if he knows a better way of doing things
and he will propose an alternative.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
It's all good.
I don't know the procedure for getting the proposal accepted or
rejected. If you can help with the technical side of things to get
things going that would be great.
When/if discussing the idea with the PMC members, please, refer to
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors" as one possible
realization of the proposal.
Regards,
Aivaras
If you think it needs
2015.01.26 20:29, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> On 26 Jan 2015, at 13:15, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The type of help needed is implied in the questions.
>>
>> But perhaps you think it's a bad idea?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
> Wow. No. The question, in English, would mean normally that I think overall it’s a good idea and it’s point was to find out if you and the others interested in pursuing the idea and doing it needed permissions help, etc., that PMC members can provide. My concern is simple. The group has a promising idea. To ensure it gets project support, it may be needed to bring in the PMC—I don’t know. Or you may need permissions for website work.
>
>
>> 2015.01.26 20:09, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>> What can I and others on the PMC to help you?
>>>
>>> Louis
> Best
> louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 01/26/2015 07:29 PM, schrieb Louis Suárez-Potts:
>
>> On 26 Jan 2015, at 13:15, Aivaras Stepukonis<as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The type of help needed is implied in the questions.
>>
>> But perhaps you think it's a bad idea?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>
> Wow. No. The question, in English, would mean normally that I think overall it’s a good idea and it’s point was to find out if you and the others interested in pursuing the idea and doing it needed permissions help, etc., that PMC members can provide. My concern is simple. The group has a promising idea. To ensure it gets project support, it may be needed to bring in the PMC—I don’t know. Or you may need permissions for website work.
please remember to present your idea also on the dev@ mailing list. This
is the main place for the project to read/think/decide. So, maybe you
get some more feedback and inspirations.
HTH
Marcus
>> 2015.01.26 20:09, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>> What can I and others on the PMC to help you?
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 26 Jan 2015, at 13:15, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The type of help needed is implied in the questions.
>
> But perhaps you think it's a bad idea?
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
Wow. No. The question, in English, would mean normally that I think overall it’s a good idea and it’s point was to find out if you and the others interested in pursuing the idea and doing it needed permissions help, etc., that PMC members can provide. My concern is simple. The group has a promising idea. To ensure it gets project support, it may be needed to bring in the PMC—I don’t know. Or you may need permissions for website work.
>
> 2015.01.26 20:09, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> What can I and others on the PMC to help you?
>>
>> Louis
>
Best
louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
The type of help needed is implied in the questions.
But perhaps you think it's a bad idea?
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.26 20:09, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> What can I and others on the PMC to help you?
>
> Louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
What can I and others on the PMC to help you?
Louis
> On 26 Jan 2015, at 13:01, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Two question:
>
> 1) How do we call the page:
>
> ... | Extend | Get Involved | Contact
> ... | Extend | Get Involved | Contributors
>
> ?
>
> I prefer "Contact" because it implies there is somebody alive at the other end of the line (whether that is actually the case will be ascertained only by dropping an e-mail and getting a reply).
>
> 2) How do we name the file of the page and where do we keep it:
>
> .../xx/contact/index.html
> .../xx/contributors/index.html
> .../xx/participate/contact.html
> .../xx/participate/contributors.html
>
> ?
>
> I would volunteer to prepare the English version of the page for inclusion in the xx package. I assume we don't need such a page for the main English website. I also assume the page is completely optional, that is to say, it may be used by volunteers when there is a willingness to be accessible in a more direct way from the top navigation bar.
>
> 2015.01.26 19:22, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
>> Please edit the double 'and' at 'the individuals and and the companies'.
>
> Thanks for catching this. I fixed it.
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
> 2015.01.26 19:22, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
>> Now every link works fine, I can see your list from every link.
>> Simple, already working and no need to maintain. :)
>>
>> Please edit the double 'and' at 'the individuals and and the companies'.
>>
>> I also plan to visit local schools and the mayor of the city to start AOO's way here, then spread it to the region and so on.
>> Probably - later - a 'references' link can be listed here too or on a separate page to show up our achievements and to make it easier for example
>> to contact a school which intends to use AOO with a school which has already implemented AOO into its everyday life.
>>
>> Regards,
>> csaba
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
Two question:
1) How do we call the page:
... | Extend | Get Involved | Contact
... | Extend | Get Involved | Contributors
?
I prefer "Contact" because it implies there is somebody alive at the
other end of the line (whether that is actually the case will be
ascertained only by dropping an e-mail and getting a reply).
2) How do we name the file of the page and where do we keep it:
.../xx/contact/index.html
.../xx/contributors/index.html
.../xx/participate/contact.html
.../xx/participate/contributors.html
?
I would volunteer to prepare the English version of the page for
inclusion in the xx package. I assume we don't need such a page for the
main English website. I also assume the page is completely optional,
that is to say, it may be used by volunteers when there is a willingness
to be accessible in a more direct way from the top navigation bar.
2015.01.26 19:22, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
> Please edit the double 'and' at 'the individuals and and the companies'.
Thanks for catching this. I fixed it.
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.26 19:22, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
> Now every link works fine, I can see your list from every link.
> Simple, already working and no need to maintain. :)
>
> Please edit the double 'and' at 'the individuals and and the companies'.
>
> I also plan to visit local schools and the mayor of the city to start
> AOO's way here, then spread it to the region and so on.
> Probably - later - a 'references' link can be listed here too or on a
> separate page to show up our achievements and to make it easier for
> example
> to contact a school which intends to use AOO with a school which has
> already implemented AOO into its everyday life.
>
> Regards,
> csaba
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
Now every link works fine, I can see your list from every link.
Simple, already working and no need to maintain. :)
Please edit the double 'and' at 'the individuals and and the companies'.
I also plan to visit local schools and the mayor of the city to start
AOO's way here, then spread it to the region and so on.
Probably - later - a 'references' link can be listed here too or on a
separate page to show up our achievements and to make it easier for example
to contact a school which intends to use AOO with a school which has
already implemented AOO into its everyday life.
Regards,
csaba
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
This is strange. It opens perfectly here. Here's what it looks:
"https://www.dropbox.com/s/rcev4jvcoumz0i8/150126%20Apache%20OpenOffice%20contact%20or%20contrubutors%20page.jpg?dl=0"
Can you open it Lithuanian equivalent at
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/contributors/"? The page is accessed by
clicking "Susisiekti" ("Contact") on the top navigation bar at
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/".
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.26 18:47, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
> Thanks for the details!
> I wanted to see your quoted link
> 'http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors',
> but any time I tried to do it - today or in the earlier days - I
> always get a 404.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
Hi Aivaras!
Thanks for the details!
I wanted to see your quoted link
'http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors',
but any time I tried to do it - today or in the earlier days - I always
get a 404.
Pedro:
My list - as I imagined - is a double aimed list. To say thankyou and to
offer help at the same time.
By this, anyone can be on the list, who wants to be on it /and did
enough to be on it/.
And anyone on the list can offer contact possibilities if they have time
and effort to help others.
As for Hungarian, there are two of us, everyone else migrated to
LibreOffice some years earlier /as I was informed/.
I wouldn't like to share contact information also, since I don't use
social media and no more time to spend with AOO.
BUT an invitation could be applied on this page / list too, for those,
who use social media, have time to share and intended to help AOO this way.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Pedro Albuquerque <pa...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I have to do it all by my self to, and with considerably less knowledge,
so I couldn't agree more with you.
Regards,
Pedro.
On 26-01-2015 15:22, Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
> 2015.01.24 11:39, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
>> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If
>> this is a page meant to be useful for the general international public
>
> Here are a couple of real life illustrations of the situations it may
> address/solve.
>
> 1) Just recently I wandered off to a local forum discussing the
> Lithuanian version of AOO wherein a person was complaining about not
> being able to contact the localizer (in that case, it would've been
> me). Three thing should be heeded: (a) he wasn't interested in "who's
> done it" (history) but in "who's doing it" (present), (b) he wasn't
> interested in gathering information about me but in contacting me
> (presumably there was a specific message to be relaid to me because
> "I'm doing it" and "could do something about it"); (c) he failed to
> contact me. (My immediate response was "what a bummer.")
>
> 2) A few weeks ago I wrote an in-depth promotional e-mail to (pretty
> much) all Lithuanian schools and some major government and municipal
> institutions presenting arguments for AOO (i.e., why it is the way for
> the public sector in Lithuania) and encouraging to try it out. I had
> the idea for some time but kept postponing it till I felt the
> Lithuanian localization had assumed a professional look. I don't know
> what the reactions will be or if there will be any to begin with, but
> at least I want to be visible and accessible. Accessible, that is, via
> AOO website as a hub for everything AOO-esque. I don't want to take it
> anywhere else because that would lead to fragmentation of our energies
> and we should be looking for ways to consolidate them.
>
> 2015.01.24 16:29, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the
>> credits, to encourage more substantive engagement?
>
> I would not do anything special about it. I'd just include a link
> (some such as "Contact" or "Contributors") in the top navigation bar
> (see "Susisiekti"*** at "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/") leading to a
> simple page such as
> "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors" (to provide an
> example in English). It is not like we have to make the contact list
> attractive or "burgeoning" in itself. No. The website, the Suite, the
> rest of the project's outlets are already working together to produce
> an interest on the part of those who want to get in touch with the
> people "doing it". The contact list is simply making it easier for
> them and increasing social opportunities for everyone involved.
>
> *** "Susisiekti" = "Contact".
>
> 2015.01.26 13:59, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
>> Could you talk about your dream?
>
> It's a much more down-to-earth thing, really. All I was thinking about
> was this:
>
> Home Page > Top Navigation Bar > Contact >
> "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors"
>
> It is meant to be very basic and simple, and by "simple" I intend not
> being hungry for resources and maintenance.
>
> Why is this? We as partakers and runners of the project have to wisely
> allocate our energies. I, for one, have to improve the localization of
> UI, translate the Help, maintain the Lithuanian subsite, report bugs
> and issues in Bugzilla, and so on. All these things have be run
> simultenously. And it does look that some of us have to do juggle
> quite a few of them if they are to get done at all.
>
> Therefore, I whole-heatedly agree with:
>
>
> 2015.01.26 02:18, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> ...start off small.
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
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* Inglês - detectado
* Inglês
* Português (Portugal)
* Inglês
* Português (Portugal)
<javascript:void(0);>
Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
2015.01.24 11:39, Andrea Pescetti rašė:
> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If
> this is a page meant to be useful for the general international public
Here are a couple of real life illustrations of the situations it may
address/solve.
1) Just recently I wandered off to a local forum discussing the
Lithuanian version of AOO wherein a person was complaining about not
being able to contact the localizer (in that case, it would've been me).
Three thing should be heeded: (a) he wasn't interested in "who's done
it" (history) but in "who's doing it" (present), (b) he wasn't
interested in gathering information about me but in contacting me
(presumably there was a specific message to be relaid to me because "I'm
doing it" and "could do something about it"); (c) he failed to contact
me. (My immediate response was "what a bummer.")
2) A few weeks ago I wrote an in-depth promotional e-mail to (pretty
much) all Lithuanian schools and some major government and municipal
institutions presenting arguments for AOO (i.e., why it is the way for
the public sector in Lithuania) and encouraging to try it out. I had the
idea for some time but kept postponing it till I felt the Lithuanian
localization had assumed a professional look. I don't know what the
reactions will be or if there will be any to begin with, but at least I
want to be visible and accessible. Accessible, that is, via AOO website
as a hub for everything AOO-esque. I don't want to take it anywhere else
because that would lead to fragmentation of our energies and we should
be looking for ways to consolidate them.
2015.01.24 16:29, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the credits, to encourage more substantive engagement?
I would not do anything special about it. I'd just include a link (some
such as "Contact" or "Contributors") in the top navigation bar (see
"Susisiekti"*** at "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/") leading to a simple
page such as "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors" (to
provide an example in English). It is not like we have to make the
contact list attractive or "burgeoning" in itself. No. The website, the
Suite, the rest of the project's outlets are already working together to
produce an interest on the part of those who want to get in touch with
the people "doing it". The contact list is simply making it easier for
them and increasing social opportunities for everyone involved.
*** "Susisiekti" = "Contact".
2015.01.26 13:59, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
> Could you talk about your dream?
It's a much more down-to-earth thing, really. All I was thinking about
was this:
Home Page > Top Navigation Bar > Contact >
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors"
It is meant to be very basic and simple, and by "simple" I intend not
being hungry for resources and maintenance.
Why is this? We as partakers and runners of the project have to wisely
allocate our energies. I, for one, have to improve the localization of
UI, translate the Help, maintain the Lithuanian subsite, report bugs and
issues in Bugzilla, and so on. All these things have be run
simultenously. And it does look that some of us have to do juggle quite
a few of them if they are to get done at all.
Therefore, I whole-heatedly agree with:
2015.01.26 02:18, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> ...start off small.
Regards,
Aivaras
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?
Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing
lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we have
a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate which is
internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian localization means
that we should setup a mailing list for them; and that becomes the main
point of contact). Some languages have more than one mailing list (one
for project coordination and one for users, for example).
> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
> would have to be empty.
I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If this
is a page meant to be useful for the general international public, I
think the best structure could be something like (for the language XX;
something will apply to some languages only):
---
- For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list]
([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])
- To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list]
or the [XX mailing list]
- To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact
You can also contact the following volunteers directly:
Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact
[...this is a variant of
http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]
Get involved
- To join the XX translation team, write to ...
---
This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much
we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the
volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific
situation.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
I agree. That's why the page has to be simple in form and maybe limited
to committers (?) to keep numbers under check and make sure there is
long-term experience (i.e. measured in years, not weeks or months)
behind the names.
> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.
>
> We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?
That does sound like a hard thing to maintain. A simple contact list in
a prominent place of the subsite would be enough for a start.
> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
would have to be empty.
> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people.
That can definitely be done, maybe after we've spent a little more time
munching on and then testing the idea?
> To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more
> higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a
> try.
From the way information is presented on the page it should be clear it
is not meant as a substitute for help. As for potential spamming, it is
a real issue that is nonetheless controllable.
Regards,
Aivaras
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RE: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Eneko Arrese <en...@hotmail.com>.
List it :)
> Subject: Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
> From: luispo@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:19:05 -0500
> To: l10n@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
> > On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
> >
> > So what is simple?
> > To list or not to list? :)
>
>
> Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/
>
> louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
I may measured it superficially, but Native Language Confederation looks
the same as AOO's native language subsites.
But at LO, there are localized / native social media links at the end of
the pages, while AOO seems to link or maintain - I only checked a few NL
site - the English ones. I mean, social media links are already given at
the 'I want to stay in touch with OpenOffice' part, but only English
speakers, I guess.
By the way: number of downloads should be updated here too. /from 100 to
125, Google+ and Facebook/
Louis:
Could you sketch your imagined solution, what means 'start off small'
for you?
What to list or what not to list? Or no list at all just mailing list
opportunity? Only for one site or for more? What is the structure?
Aivaras:
Could you talk about your dream? :)
Eneko:
So, what and how should we list? :)
All the bests,
csaba
On 2015-01-26 01:19, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>>
>> So what is simple?
>> To list or not to list? :)
>
> Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/
>
> louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>
> So what is simple?
> To list or not to list? :)
Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/
louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>
> So what is simple?
> To list or not to list? :)
My guide has been always: being able to change your mind and to efficiently alert others of the change; and vice versa. Answer in concrete terms: start off small. Do reality checks. Emphasise humans. "reality checks" means something like every 3 months or so, ask: is this working? And…remind us all outside of the dedicated list(s) what you are doing and why and how it’s helping or not whatever you think is important for the community.
Apache OpenOffice no longer has the native-lang projects of yore. These pretty much became the LibreOffice community (serves me right—and also underscores the forking issue). But this means, however, that you see what they have, as LO’s NLC community is, for me, a rather familiar trip down memory hole.
In a nutshell: The native-language efforts work to a) expand the community base but b) not necessarily its developer cadre. For that, we still need the usual things. A may lead to B, but you need a narrative for that.
Cheers,
Louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
Hi Louis!
- I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal.
- Yes, I absolutely accept this. The more complicated a site or program,
the more we have to fight with errors.
But from what point of view should we see complexity?
From the developer of the site or program?
From the contributor?
From the visitor of the site or the user of the program?
I think, we should take care of all the points of view, BUT on different
levels.
The developers have to have enough knowledge to construct a site or
program, which is as simple as it can be used WITHOUT making complex the
work of the other two groups. Because the weight is far more different.
While 1000 or 100000 developer is working on a project with high skills
and enough knowledge to cope with the programming issues, 10 millions of
people are USING the program and visiting the site and MANY of them have
good ideas and are willing to help or take part in the project on
different levels.
So, according to this, I think, the developers with the highest
knowledge have to develop site and program as complex as the users with
the least knowlegde should say: 'It was an easy piece of cake!' Not to
mention the work of the contributors, who take far more time with the
'infrastructure' of AOO.
- But here's another chord to add to the polyphon.
- Yes. AOO is a symphony. This chord adds respect to the developers and
volunteers and makes easier for the users or visitors to contact with
them for any reason, probably without English knowledge. Drum and bass
can be very simple and full of power. But a symphony should impress by
its simplicity AND complexity at the same time. Hard work in the
background, easy listening for the audience.
- What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the
credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain
what's already been committed?
- The more road leads to AOO, the more easier to take part in it, the
more easier to handle things, the more jumps in. The more jumps in, the
more stays.
And, the only thing developers have to do, is to create a list to say
'thankyou' for ideas, patches, contributions, translations. For the
effort and time.
And by this, offering help to others at the same time with this list.
/Of course, I have no idea how many members should be on this list, how
many are willing to be listed or wants this way to be in the 'hall of
fame' and offer help to others./
- The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game...
- The 'rank thing' may sound like gamifying respect, but I did not meant
it this way.
I suggested it, because
1. I found committership as a criterion too high /I may though of a
different list like Aivaras or you (it happens offen :) )
2. I don't even know my 'rank' /never applied a patch, no committership,
just 'high flying ideas' :) /
- ...localised MLs work fine as long as they are actually populated with
posts and as long as those posting do not effectively wall themselves
off simply by focusing on their lists...
- I have to admit, I did not even think of this kind of danger which
really seems to be real with forking at the end.
But as all things, it has two sides too.
While it helps a lots of outsiders, English non-speakers to join,
discuss or ask, it risks the 'singularity'.
But if AOO has more 'strong legs' in many different languages, it could
'stand ground' more effectively for more time too.
Complexity-simplycity: a few days ago I accidently noticed, that
someone - Rob - has made a change to test-hu.
He updated the number of download from 100 million to 125 million. And
as I saw, he had to update it everywhere.
And Aivaras corrected a list ordering as he wrote in his latest mail:
"Math, Base ... changed to: ... Base, Math"
And this changes should be followed on the other subsites too.
What is complex?
To build a site with more work and we can change this values with just
'one click'?
Or to build a simple site and copy this 'one click' work many times, always.
So what is simple?
To list or not to list? :)
Sorry for this long monolog and thanks for reading.
Regards,
csaba
On 2015-01-24 15:29, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:09, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just have to think more about it.
>> It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The environment decide which records to show up from it.
>>
>>> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a good criterion, or is it too strict?
>> I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer, tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./
>>
> I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal. But here's another chord to add to the polyphon. What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain what's already been committed? For instance, local meet ups might work, as could the integration with a social media site. "Integration" here does not mean, necessarily, anything more than just cross linking. :-)
>
> Basically, my desire is to recognise contributions & contributors and then to encourage more and more of the kind. Many tactics can work and do work; it depends on person, context, even code. One can even gamify (eg, use a layered approach, where the "reward" is stepping up the meritocratic ladder—which is what is done, anyway, only without the title. The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game would lie in the setting of goals—without, at the same time, sacrificing the real logic of open source, which is that trust and public respect are earned through contributions, especially those others appreciate—by using them.)
>
> cheers,
> louis
>
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:09, YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu> wrote:
>
>
>> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just have to think more about it.
> It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The environment decide which records to show up from it.
>
>>
>> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a good criterion, or is it too strict?
>
> I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer, tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./
>
I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal. But here's another chord to add to the polyphon. What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain what's already been committed? For instance, local meet ups might work, as could the integration with a social media site. "Integration" here does not mean, necessarily, anything more than just cross linking. :-)
Basically, my desire is to recognise contributions & contributors and then to encourage more and more of the kind. Many tactics can work and do work; it depends on person, context, even code. One can even gamify (eg, use a layered approach, where the "reward" is stepping up the meritocratic ladder—which is what is done, anyway, only without the title. The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game would lie in the setting of goals—without, at the same time, sacrificing the real logic of open source, which is that trust and public respect are earned through contributions, especially those others appreciate—by using them.)
cheers,
louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just
> have to think more about it.
It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The
environment decide which records to show up from it.
>
> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor
> and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is
> a good criterion, or is it too strict?
I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could
express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer,
tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
Wow. I just whistled a simple melody and you responded with an
orchestral tutti. Nice.
My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just
have to think more about it.
My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor
and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a
good criterion, or is it too strict?
I'll go ahead and localize my proposed version of the contributor page.
So I have something visual to ponder upon and discuss with you.
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.24 01:35, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:
> We may imagine different pages for contributors, so I sketch my one.
>
> -Language 1
> --Area 1: /website translating, website developing, write developer,
> base developer, marketing, anything else./
> ---Contributor 1 /name/
> ----contribution 1
> ----contribution 2
> ----contribution 3
> ----contribution 4
> ----------------------
> ----Can be contacted on the following platforms /skype, mail, msn,
> webpage, etc./
> ----platform 1
> ----platform 2
> ---------------------
> Last active:
> Date
> "Usually I answer within .............., please be patient!" /1 hour,
> 1 week, 1 month, on Sundays, anything/
>
> ---Contributor 2
> ----contribution 1
> ----contribution 2
> ----contribution 3
> ----contribution 4
> No contact information, just proud to be here, on the list
>
> And so on...
>
> Area 2, Contributors, Area 3, Contributors, Language 2
> ...................
>
> A mail server could drop a checking mail with 'Are you alive? Are you
> still interested in aoo?' message to every listed person in every
> month. If 'answer' mail was sent back to server, 'last active' date
> will be updated. If no answer, contributor will be moved to inactive
> listings / archives.
>
>
> And there could be three lists. Native subsite should show up only
> it's own native contributors as Aivaras planned - if I understood it
> well. And there could be a link on this page with 'Show me all active
> contributors for every language'. And a link for 'Show me all
> contributors'.
>
> Probably not possible, but php and sql could do a great job for here.
>
>
>
> On 2015-01-23 23:26, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of
>>> professional (paid?) consultants
>>> ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have
>>> an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
>>
>> Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original
>> page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that
>> those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page
>> ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather,
>> I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions
>> to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or
>> otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
>>
>> A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue
>> was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that
>> such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of
>> date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to
>> identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.
>>
>> See:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser
>>
>> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors;
>> there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless
>> the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
>>
>> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to
>> include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other
>> list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.
>>
>> Louis
>>
>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
We may imagine different pages for contributors, so I sketch my one.
-Language 1
--Area 1: /website translating, website developing, write developer,
base developer, marketing, anything else./
---Contributor 1 /name/
----contribution 1
----contribution 2
----contribution 3
----contribution 4
----------------------
----Can be contacted on the following platforms /skype, mail, msn,
webpage, etc./
----platform 1
----platform 2
---------------------
Last active:
Date
"Usually I answer within .............., please be patient!" /1 hour, 1
week, 1 month, on Sundays, anything/
---Contributor 2
----contribution 1
----contribution 2
----contribution 3
----contribution 4
No contact information, just proud to be here, on the list
And so on...
Area 2, Contributors, Area 3, Contributors, Language 2 ...................
A mail server could drop a checking mail with 'Are you alive? Are you
still interested in aoo?' message to every listed person in every month.
If 'answer' mail was sent back to server, 'last active' date will be
updated. If no answer, contributor will be moved to inactive listings /
archives.
And there could be three lists. Native subsite should show up only it's
own native contributors as Aivaras planned - if I understood it well.
And there could be a link on this page with 'Show me all active
contributors for every language'. And a link for 'Show me all contributors'.
Probably not possible, but php and sql could do a great job for here.
On 2015-01-23 23:26, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of professional (paid?) consultants ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
>
> Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather, I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
>
> A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.
>
> See: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser
>
> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
>
> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.
>
> Louis
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of professional (paid?) consultants ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather, I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.
See: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser
Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.
Louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com>.
The reason for the page is to to make contributors more visible to local
users for networking opportunities. All this at the local level.
Since joining the community two or so years ago I have been approached
as a contributor and a localizer only once. There may be many reasons
for this, but one of them is we're (working contributors) are not
visible for the general public (non-contributing folks who stop to flip
a few pages without delving any deeper).
Please, note I'm suggesting the contributor page to be part of a local
subsite (fostering contact sharing within an ethnic and/or linguistic
locale). It is not meant to be generic or historical.
If we, physical contributors, cannot be contacted here by the general
public it will happen somewhere else. I'd rather see the Lithuanian
subsite becoming the hub for all matters (and thus Internet traffic)
concerning the Lithuanian version of AOO and not some external site such
as "http://openoffice.lt/" that uses the address and the name of
OpenOffice to promote LibreOffice.
How did that come about? Well the enthusiasm of the maintainers of the
aforementioned website for one product (AOO) at an earlier time turned
into enthusiasm for another product (LO) at a later time. The chances
for such vicissitudes of life would have been minimized had it all been
happening under "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/".
I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of
professional (paid?) consultants
("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an
equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
Regards,
Aivaras
2015.01.23 21:10, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 11:03, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>>
>> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>>
>> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>>
>> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>>
> It's an interesting idea but a) I think this post ought to be to the dev@ list or marketing@; and b) we currently use http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html, which is referred to by the OpenOffice splash screen (I think) and "About" screen and probably elsewhere (at one point, I think it was listed in the marketing project, download, etc.). In general, I'm reluctant to add new or change existing pages unless there's a compelling reason to, as that way bitrot lies. However, we can also add more pages that refer to those lists.
>
> louis
>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 23 Jan 2015, at 11:03, Aivaras Stepukonis <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>
> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>
> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>
> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
It's an interesting idea but a) I think this post ought to be to the dev@ list or marketing@; and b) we currently use http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html, which is referred to by the OpenOffice splash screen (I think) and "About" screen and probably elsewhere (at one point, I think it was listed in the marketing project, download, etc.). In general, I'm reluctant to add new or change existing pages unless there's a compelling reason to, as that way bitrot lies. However, we can also add more pages that refer to those lists.
louis
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
On 2015-01-23 23:42, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.
>
> We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?
>
> louis
>
I'm just a newcomer here, who dreams a lot without any knowledge of
aoo's history, and you - the elders - hold your head in your hands
saying 'It starts again...' :)
I just think if there is a good possibility to contact with each other
(the contributors directly) or with the outsiders (the visitors of the
site), we should use this possibility. If we plan it well it will work
as it is dreamed.
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> Reply-To: l10n@openoffice.apache.org
> Date: 23 Jan 2015 17:33:32 -0500
> From: YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>
> To: l10n@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
>
> It seems to be a good idea.
> When I started my testing with the language selector, I wrote my ask for help here, to the l10n.
> Some localizer of this project wrote back and others not.
> i did not even know if there was a 'living' contributor for a given language to ask for help from them directly or not.
> I have to 'hunt' for newcomers' mails or have to dig the l10n archive if I want to find a person to help me with their given language.
> By the help of such a page like Aivaras mentioned, I should only take a look at the list and could get the help from the right person 'immediately'.
> So, it would be useful for me.
>
> To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a try.
>
I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.
We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?
louis
>
>
> On 2015-01-23 17:03, Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>>
>> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>>
>> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>>
>> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
Posted by YoheY - OpenOffice <op...@yohey.hu>.
It seems to be a good idea.
When I started my testing with the language selector, I wrote my ask for
help here, to the l10n.
Some localizer of this project wrote back and others not.
i did not even know if there was a 'living' contributor for a given
language to ask for help from them directly or not.
I have to 'hunt' for newcomers' mails or have to dig the l10n archive if
I want to find a person to help me with their given language.
By the help of such a page like Aivaras mentioned, I should only take a
look at the list and could get the help from the right person 'immediately'.
So, it would be useful for me.
To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more
higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a try.
On 2015-01-23 17:03, Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page
> dedicated to contributors.
>
> For an example, please, see
> "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>
> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e.,
> Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>
> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors'
> community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It
> is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to
> build social bridges to the external world by providing concise
> information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
>
>
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