You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> on 2002/03/27 18:22:29 UTC
RE: Using Avalon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dank [mailto:dank] On Behalf Of Dan Kegel
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > You can't understand a framework until you understand what
> the thought
> > processes are in that framework. Before I started writing most of
> > that documentation, we kept answering the same questions
> over and over
> > again. Guess what! The documentation represents the type of
> > questions we had to answer.
>
> However, it appears to have usability problems. Try this
> experiment: have someone who knows Java but not Avalon
> look at the Avalon web page, and ask them to build a
> demo program using Avalon. IMHO this should take no
> longer than five minutes, including them figuring out
> how to download Avalon and the demo.
> I tried exactly this, and after half an hour, gave up.
Thank you for your well thought out response, and your _constructive_
criticism. I am forwarding this message to the avalon developer's
site. We can address most of these issues hopefully sooner than
later.
> Concrete problems:
> 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/ has no 'Download' link.
Easy to fix--however we follow the Jakarta site conventions which is
not well thought out. Most projects on jakarta do not have a download
link--and choose to have it under the main download links.
> 2. The description of Framework is misleading:
> "The framework is not a product or an API set or a set of
> interfaces: it is a collection of code design patterns, rules,
> guidelines and suggestions on how to write software that plugs
> into the framework."
> If that's the case, I would expect Framework to be named
> Documentation,
> and contain no code. Yet there is lots of code in Framework.
That is a legacy description from before when I came on board.
Avalon was originally meant as a baseline to start your project with.
It has grown into something you use.
> 3. The demo FTP server is apparantly in 'Cornerstone', but the
> 'Download' link at http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/cornerstone/
> is broken or points to an empty directory.
This is something we need to fix ASAP. The reality is that the FTP
server, as well as other apps have been moved to jakarta-avalon-apps
which uses cornerstone.
> 4. There is no simple, step-by-step example showing how to
> download and build a sample app, from start to finish.
> Instead, I find a large number of wordy web pages that
> talk on and on about how wonderful Avalon is, without actually
> giving me any concrete assistance in getting started.
You are right. The closest you are going to get at this time
is the Developer's docs that describe how to work with the Framework
and part of Excalibur.
The truth is that frameworks don't have a lot of concrete parts to
them. Most of the real work is in your app. The framework defines
how to arrange things, so they can interact well and remain
maintainable. The actual work is done by the components.
> Now, I'd love to benchmark that demo FTP server, and give the
> Avalon folks some feedback about their performance, but I'm
> stymied; it was just too hard. This whole experience has
> made me very skeptical about Avalon actually being usable by
> someone who is not part of the Avalon team. Hence my suprise
> when I saw that JMeter was considering using it. When I
> realized the person who got them to consider it was on the
> Avalon team, it made a lot more sense.
When I talked to the person who posted it on the list, I managed
to convince him. I will help in any way that I can--I am busy,
so I can't contribute code. I can answer questions, though.
> IMHO the JMeter team should assess the usability of Avalon
> before jumping headfirst into using it.
Talk to Cocoon developers and JAMES developers. They are
using it now.
> Fix #3 and #4, and I will be more than happy to help the
> Avalon folks by stress-testing their demo apps.
We will see how quickly we can address your concerns.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Using Avalon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Berin,
>>3. The demo FTP server is apparantly in 'Cornerstone', but the
>> 'Download' link at http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/cornerstone/
>> is broken or points to an empty directory.
>>
>
>This is something we need to fix ASAP. The reality is that the FTP
>server, as well as other apps have been moved to jakarta-avalon-apps
>which uses cornerstone.
>
I think this is something I should contribute to as I am the main
trouble maker in the apps realm.
- Paul
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Using Avalon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:51, Paul Hammant wrote:
>
>>Well if we can move to an automated nightly process for apps and
>>cornerstone, then I can evolve the docs, links, zips to be correct.
>> Then we mnove to releases.
>>
>>For me to be involved it has to be automated cos I only have access to
>>the the CVS@apache box.
>>
>
>We can get you access to jakarta/daedalus if you want it.
>
From what I hear they are trying to prune the accounts on the other
boxes. I agree with that aim, and think I am too marginal a contributor
to be alowed access to that. I used to have an account, but it never
got reenabled after the Apache hack of a year ago.
>However gump is
>moving towards a semi-automated system. Basically it will mean tinkering with
>jakarta-avalon-apps/gump.xml to get things being distributed to correct place.
>
>However it is not currently in full swing. I will give you a heads up when
>gump gets sophisticated to do it and you can hack away ;)
>
I'll wait :-)
- Paul
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Using Avalon
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:51, Paul Hammant wrote:
> Well if we can move to an automated nightly process for apps and
> cornerstone, then I can evolve the docs, links, zips to be correct.
> Then we mnove to releases.
>
> For me to be involved it has to be automated cos I only have access to
> the the CVS@apache box.
We can get you access to jakarta/daedalus if you want it. However gump is
moving towards a semi-automated system. Basically it will mean tinkering with
jakarta-avalon-apps/gump.xml to get things being distributed to correct place.
However it is not currently in full swing. I will give you a heads up when
gump gets sophisticated to do it and you can hack away ;)
--
Cheers,
Pete
-------------------------
All things considered,
insanity may be the only
reasonable alternative.
-------------------------
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Using Avalon
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Peter, Berin,
>>>3. The demo FTP server is apparantly in 'Cornerstone', but the
>>> 'Download' link at http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/cornerstone/
>>> is broken or points to an empty directory.
>>>
>>This is something we need to fix ASAP. The reality is that the FTP
>>server, as well as other apps have been moved to jakarta-avalon-apps
>>which uses cornerstone.
>>
>
>I get at least 3-4 messages a week about this and most of them I just say.
>"Not released yet". it would good to start doing releases but I don't have
>the time it takes atm.
>
Well if we can move to an automated nightly process for apps and
cornerstone, then I can evolve the docs, links, zips to be correct.
Then we mnove to releases.
For me to be involved it has to be automated cos I only have access to
the the CVS@apache box.
- Paul
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Using Avalon
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:22, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > 3. The demo FTP server is apparantly in 'Cornerstone', but the
> > 'Download' link at http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/cornerstone/
> > is broken or points to an empty directory.
>
> This is something we need to fix ASAP. The reality is that the FTP
> server, as well as other apps have been moved to jakarta-avalon-apps
> which uses cornerstone.
I get at least 3-4 messages a week about this and most of them I just say.
"Not released yet". it would good to start doing releases but I don't have
the time it takes atm.
--
Cheers,
Pete
---------------------------------------------------
Murphy's law - "Anything that can go wrong, will."
(Actually, this is Finagle's law, which in itself
shows that Finagle was right.)
---------------------------------------------------
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
you'll understand if I keep the discussion on jakarta-general =)
cheers!
- Leo
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Jeff Turner [mailto:jeff@socialchange.net.au]
> Verzonden: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:51 PM
> Aan: Avalon Developers List
> Onderwerp: Re: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:25:57PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
> > > > Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > > > > You can't understand a framework until you understand what
> > > > the thought
> > > >
> > > > However, it appears to have usability problems.
> >
> > an understatement. I'm devoting all my spare time into fixing some
> > of this. See discussion on jakarta general.
> >
> > > Easy to fix--however we follow the Jakarta site conventions which is
> > > not well thought out.
> >
> > Exactly. I'm starting with work on jakarta-site2.
>
> How about the stylesheets used in Maven, currently generating the
> Turbine home page (http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/)? I think there's
> unspoken agreement that this will be the next jakarta-site2.
>
> They've already got PDF generation working to some degree:
>
> http://jamestaylor.org/maven.pdf
>
>
> --Jeff
>
> ....
> > regards,
> >
> > - Leo Simons
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:25:57PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
> > > Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > > > You can't understand a framework until you understand what
> > > the thought
> > >
> > > However, it appears to have usability problems.
>
> an understatement. I'm devoting all my spare time into fixing some
> of this. See discussion on jakarta general.
>
> > Easy to fix--however we follow the Jakarta site conventions which is
> > not well thought out.
>
> Exactly. I'm starting with work on jakarta-site2.
How about the stylesheets used in Maven, currently generating the
Turbine home page (http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/)? I think there's
unspoken agreement that this will be the next jakarta-site2.
They've already got PDF generation working to some degree:
http://jamestaylor.org/maven.pdf
--Jeff
...
> regards,
>
> - Leo Simons
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jakarta.apache.org/msg04279.html
and
http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jakarta.apache.org/msg04465.html
cheers,
- Leo
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Gonzalo A. Diethelm [mailto:gonzalo.diethelm@aditiva.com]
> Verzonden: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:38 PM
> Aan: Avalon Developers List
> Onderwerp: RE: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
>
>
> > > > However, it appears to have usability problems.
> >
> > an understatement. I'm devoting all my spare time into fixing some
> > of this. See discussion on jakarta general.
>
> Could you provide a link to the thread?
>
>
> --
> Gonzalo A. Diethelm
> gonzalo.diethelm@aditiva.com
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
Posted by "Gonzalo A. Diethelm" <go...@aditiva.com>.
> > > However, it appears to have usability problems.
>
> an understatement. I'm devoting all my spare time into fixing some
> of this. See discussion on jakarta general.
Could you provide a link to the thread?
--
Gonzalo A. Diethelm
gonzalo.diethelm@aditiva.com
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
avalon documentation (RE: Using Avalon)
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> > Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > > You can't understand a framework until you understand what
> > the thought
> >
> > However, it appears to have usability problems.
an understatement. I'm devoting all my spare time into fixing some
of this. See discussion on jakarta general.
> Easy to fix--however we follow the Jakarta site conventions which is
> not well thought out.
Exactly. I'm starting with work on jakarta-site2.
> > IMHO the JMeter team should assess the usability of Avalon
> > before jumping headfirst into using it.
Avalon is very useable indeed; its just that the documentation
is not so good at explaining how in plain english.
Let me stress again work is in progress to make major improvements
to our documentation from various corners. More comments like the
ones in this post are very welcome; thanks.
regards,
- Leo Simons
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>