You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@activemq.apache.org by dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> on 2018/08/23 23:22:25 UTC
Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Can someone please clear up some confusion for me about NMS on Jboss AMQ 7
(Artemis)?
I am confused about why it has been "deprecated". The Jboss AMQ release
notes say that "NMS messaging APIs are deprecated in AMQ 7". About a year
ago I had done some of my own testing and ran into trouble fairly quickly.
It was pretty clear that I was probably one of the first to try running an
NMS client application that was connected to an Artemis broker.
What is most unclear to me is why there is a double standard whereby Jboss
AMQ fully supports JMS clients that connect to the broker on the "openwire"
protocol, but they clearly discourage NMS clients that connect on the same
"openwire" protocol. It would seem to me that if AMQ 7 fully supports the
legacy JMS clients (based on "openwire"), then supporting NMS would only be
a minor amount of additional work. It almost seems like someone is going
out of their way to give c# programmers a poke in the eye.
I did find a document ("sneak preview") about AMQ 7 that said NMS legacy
clients would be supported. Did they change their minds? See this link:
https://www.redhat.com/files/summit/session-assets/2016/SS88848-sneak-preview-of-next-generation-messaging-platform-red-hat-jboss-a-mq-7.pdf
I am aware of a couple github projects (and related discussions) where work
is underway to rebuild NMS on top of "AMQP".
https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-amqp
https://github.com/cjwmorgan-sol/nms-amqp
http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Rework-NMS-AMQP-td4721986i20.html
http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/Reword-NMS-for-AMQPNetLite-td4739536.html
... But this would all be unnecessary (or at least not very urgent) if AMQ 7
fully supported NMS clients that are connecting via "openwire". In short, I
don't understand why Jboss AMQ 7 has deprecated NMS but not the
corresponding JMS clients running on "openwire". They don't say JMS is
deprecated and nor do they say "openwire" is deprecated... although I found
a blog that says openwire might one day be deprecated
(https://blog.joshdreagan.com/2017/12/01/upgrading_amq_6_to_amq_7/).
Should anyone be attempting to connecting a legacy NMS client application to
AMQ 7? Or is that asking for trouble? Please help me understand if/how c#
client applications will need to be changed once an AMQ broker is upgraded
to AMQ 7.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
You should probably raise an example on where it fails. Someone may take a
look.
Why don’t you start over with a question on user forums. With an example.
If confirmed a bug open a JIRA.
Open source projects are maintained by the community. As of now I have
seen most of the NMS contributions along AMQP. I haven’t seen much activity
around open wire. But you can be part of the community and change that.
On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 1:08 PM dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the helpful information. I'm fairly new to using
> open-source
> projects so it was hard for me to phrase the right questions (ie questions
> without all the subtle and unintentional references to specific vendors,
> and
> the jboss issue-tracking site).
>
> I guess that the thing which I was most surprised by was that a vendor
> would
> independently claim to "deprecate" NMS even if that wasn't the direction of
> the community. Furthermore it sounds like the behavior of the openwire
> protocol is actually more important than the NMS api which I interface with
> (at least where client-broker compatibility is concerned). Since redhat
> continues to fully support the openwire protocol, then NMS really just
> comes
> along for the ride, whatever they may say about its deprecation.
>
> I suspect if I ran into a bug with NMS-openwire-on-artemis they would first
> make me reproduce it on JMS-openwire before offering full technical
> support.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com>.
Thanks for all the helpful information. I'm fairly new to using open-source
projects so it was hard for me to phrase the right questions (ie questions
without all the subtle and unintentional references to specific vendors, and
the jboss issue-tracking site).
I guess that the thing which I was most surprised by was that a vendor would
independently claim to "deprecate" NMS even if that wasn't the direction of
the community. Furthermore it sounds like the behavior of the openwire
protocol is actually more important than the NMS api which I interface with
(at least where client-broker compatibility is concerned). Since redhat
continues to fully support the openwire protocol, then NMS really just comes
along for the ride, whatever they may say about its deprecation.
I suspect if I ran into a bug with NMS-openwire-on-artemis they would first
make me reproduce it on JMS-openwire before offering full technical support.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
When companies offer support they do at their own discretion.
Here in apache we develop software while we provide you the apache license
with apache terms and its limited warranty. (Read the license for more
information)
On your case you are asking about why Red Hat is not offering support.
Which is a question we cannot answer here.
Here at the dev list we can talk now to develop it. If you want to drive
it. We always welcome new developers to work here.
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:34 PM Justin Bertram <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Is Apache Artemis supposed to be allowing connectivity from NMS-openwire
> clients?
>
> I'm not aware of any specific testing done with NMS clients using the
> OpenWire provider and Artemis, but since Artemis supports OpenWire I would
> generally expect such clients to work.
>
>
> > The following lists a number of protocols and API's that are supported in
> Artemis: https://activemq.apache.org/artemis/ Note that there is no
> mention
> of NMS at all.
>
> I believe NMS is not mentioned here because it is just an API with
> providers who speak lots of different protocols. We don't list all the
> APIs which speak STOMP or AMQP because it is sufficient simply to list
> support for the protocols themselves (i.e. STOMP and AMQP).
>
> JMS is also just an API, but it is mentioned here as an exception because
> the broker actually ships with a JMS 1.1 & 2.0 client implementation.
>
>
> > Is there any reason for me to avoid using NMS with Artemis, or should I
> give it another shot?
>
> I assume you're asking specifically about the NMS API with the OpenWire
> provider. If that's the case, then I'm not aware of any reason you should
> avoid it.
>
>
> > ...I'd prefer to keep using the "openwire" variety of NMS as long as it
> is supported with Artemis.
>
> If implemented properly it really shouldn't matter what provider you use
> underneath the NMS API. They should all theoretically provide the same
> functionality. That's kind of the point of having an API in the first
> place (i.e. the implementation can change without impacting clients).
>
>
> Justin
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Clebert Suconic <
> clebert.suconic@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > JBoss AMQ 7 is product from RedHat.
> >
> > You should ask Red Hat about it.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:51 AM dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Can someone please clear up some confusion for me about NMS on Jboss
> AMQ
> > 7
> > > (Artemis)?
> > >
> > > I am confused about why it has been "deprecated". The Jboss AMQ
> release
> > > notes say that "NMS messaging APIs are deprecated in AMQ 7". About a
> > year
> > > ago I had done some of my own testing and ran into trouble fairly
> > quickly.
> > > It was pretty clear that I was probably one of the first to try running
> > an
> > > NMS client application that was connected to an Artemis broker.
> > >
> > > What is most unclear to me is why there is a double standard whereby
> > Jboss
> > > AMQ fully supports JMS clients that connect to the broker on the
> > "openwire"
> > > protocol, but they clearly discourage NMS clients that connect on the
> > same
> > > "openwire" protocol. It would seem to me that if AMQ 7 fully supports
> > the
> > > legacy JMS clients (based on "openwire"), then supporting NMS would
> only
> > be
> > > a minor amount of additional work. It almost seems like someone is
> going
> > > out of their way to give c# programmers a poke in the eye.
> > >
> > >
> > > I did find a document ("sneak preview") about AMQ 7 that said NMS
> legacy
> > > clients would be supported. Did they change their minds? See this
> link:
> > >
> > > https://www.redhat.com/files/summit/session-assets/2016/
> > SS88848-sneak-preview-of-next-generation-messaging-platform-
> > red-hat-jboss-a-mq-7.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > I am aware of a couple github projects (and related discussions) where
> > work
> > > is underway to rebuild NMS on top of "AMQP".
> > >
> > > https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-amqp
> > > https://github.com/cjwmorgan-sol/nms-amqp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Rework-NMS-
> > AMQP-td4721986i20.html
> > >
> > > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/Reword-NMS-for-
> > AMQPNetLite-td4739536.html
> > >
> > >
> > > ... But this would all be unnecessary (or at least not very urgent) if
> > AMQ
> > > 7
> > > fully supported NMS clients that are connecting via "openwire". In
> > short,
> > > I
> > > don't understand why Jboss AMQ 7 has deprecated NMS but not the
> > > corresponding JMS clients running on "openwire". They don't say JMS is
> > > deprecated and nor do they say "openwire" is deprecated... although I
> > found
> > > a blog that says openwire might one day be deprecated
> > > (https://blog.joshdreagan.com/2017/12/01/upgrading_amq_6_to_amq_7/).
> > >
> > > Should anyone be attempting to connecting a legacy NMS client
> application
> > > to
> > > AMQ 7? Or is that asking for trouble? Please help me understand
> if/how
> > c#
> > > client applications will need to be changed once an AMQ broker is
> > upgraded
> > > to AMQ 7.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from:
> > > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> > >
> > --
> > Clebert Suconic
> >
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Justin Bertram <jb...@apache.org>.
> Is Apache Artemis supposed to be allowing connectivity from NMS-openwire
clients?
I'm not aware of any specific testing done with NMS clients using the
OpenWire provider and Artemis, but since Artemis supports OpenWire I would
generally expect such clients to work.
> The following lists a number of protocols and API's that are supported in
Artemis: https://activemq.apache.org/artemis/ Note that there is no mention
of NMS at all.
I believe NMS is not mentioned here because it is just an API with
providers who speak lots of different protocols. We don't list all the
APIs which speak STOMP or AMQP because it is sufficient simply to list
support for the protocols themselves (i.e. STOMP and AMQP).
JMS is also just an API, but it is mentioned here as an exception because
the broker actually ships with a JMS 1.1 & 2.0 client implementation.
> Is there any reason for me to avoid using NMS with Artemis, or should I
give it another shot?
I assume you're asking specifically about the NMS API with the OpenWire
provider. If that's the case, then I'm not aware of any reason you should
avoid it.
> ...I'd prefer to keep using the "openwire" variety of NMS as long as it
is supported with Artemis.
If implemented properly it really shouldn't matter what provider you use
underneath the NMS API. They should all theoretically provide the same
functionality. That's kind of the point of having an API in the first
place (i.e. the implementation can change without impacting clients).
Justin
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> JBoss AMQ 7 is product from RedHat.
>
> You should ask Red Hat about it.
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:51 AM dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
>
> > Can someone please clear up some confusion for me about NMS on Jboss AMQ
> 7
> > (Artemis)?
> >
> > I am confused about why it has been "deprecated". The Jboss AMQ release
> > notes say that "NMS messaging APIs are deprecated in AMQ 7". About a
> year
> > ago I had done some of my own testing and ran into trouble fairly
> quickly.
> > It was pretty clear that I was probably one of the first to try running
> an
> > NMS client application that was connected to an Artemis broker.
> >
> > What is most unclear to me is why there is a double standard whereby
> Jboss
> > AMQ fully supports JMS clients that connect to the broker on the
> "openwire"
> > protocol, but they clearly discourage NMS clients that connect on the
> same
> > "openwire" protocol. It would seem to me that if AMQ 7 fully supports
> the
> > legacy JMS clients (based on "openwire"), then supporting NMS would only
> be
> > a minor amount of additional work. It almost seems like someone is going
> > out of their way to give c# programmers a poke in the eye.
> >
> >
> > I did find a document ("sneak preview") about AMQ 7 that said NMS legacy
> > clients would be supported. Did they change their minds? See this link:
> >
> > https://www.redhat.com/files/summit/session-assets/2016/
> SS88848-sneak-preview-of-next-generation-messaging-platform-
> red-hat-jboss-a-mq-7.pdf
> >
> >
> > I am aware of a couple github projects (and related discussions) where
> work
> > is underway to rebuild NMS on top of "AMQP".
> >
> > https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-amqp
> > https://github.com/cjwmorgan-sol/nms-amqp
> >
> >
> >
> > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Rework-NMS-
> AMQP-td4721986i20.html
> >
> > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/Reword-NMS-for-
> AMQPNetLite-td4739536.html
> >
> >
> > ... But this would all be unnecessary (or at least not very urgent) if
> AMQ
> > 7
> > fully supported NMS clients that are connecting via "openwire". In
> short,
> > I
> > don't understand why Jboss AMQ 7 has deprecated NMS but not the
> > corresponding JMS clients running on "openwire". They don't say JMS is
> > deprecated and nor do they say "openwire" is deprecated... although I
> found
> > a blog that says openwire might one day be deprecated
> > (https://blog.joshdreagan.com/2017/12/01/upgrading_amq_6_to_amq_7/).
> >
> > Should anyone be attempting to connecting a legacy NMS client application
> > to
> > AMQ 7? Or is that asking for trouble? Please help me understand if/how
> c#
> > client applications will need to be changed once an AMQ broker is
> upgraded
> > to AMQ 7.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from:
> > http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> >
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Clebert Suconic <cl...@gmail.com>.
JBoss AMQ 7 is product from RedHat.
You should ask Red Hat about it.
On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:51 AM dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
> Can someone please clear up some confusion for me about NMS on Jboss AMQ 7
> (Artemis)?
>
> I am confused about why it has been "deprecated". The Jboss AMQ release
> notes say that "NMS messaging APIs are deprecated in AMQ 7". About a year
> ago I had done some of my own testing and ran into trouble fairly quickly.
> It was pretty clear that I was probably one of the first to try running an
> NMS client application that was connected to an Artemis broker.
>
> What is most unclear to me is why there is a double standard whereby Jboss
> AMQ fully supports JMS clients that connect to the broker on the "openwire"
> protocol, but they clearly discourage NMS clients that connect on the same
> "openwire" protocol. It would seem to me that if AMQ 7 fully supports the
> legacy JMS clients (based on "openwire"), then supporting NMS would only be
> a minor amount of additional work. It almost seems like someone is going
> out of their way to give c# programmers a poke in the eye.
>
>
> I did find a document ("sneak preview") about AMQ 7 that said NMS legacy
> clients would be supported. Did they change their minds? See this link:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/files/summit/session-assets/2016/SS88848-sneak-preview-of-next-generation-messaging-platform-red-hat-jboss-a-mq-7.pdf
>
>
> I am aware of a couple github projects (and related discussions) where work
> is underway to rebuild NMS on top of "AMQP".
>
> https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-amqp
> https://github.com/cjwmorgan-sol/nms-amqp
>
>
>
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Rework-NMS-AMQP-td4721986i20.html
>
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/Reword-NMS-for-AMQPNetLite-td4739536.html
>
>
> ... But this would all be unnecessary (or at least not very urgent) if AMQ
> 7
> fully supported NMS clients that are connecting via "openwire". In short,
> I
> don't understand why Jboss AMQ 7 has deprecated NMS but not the
> corresponding JMS clients running on "openwire". They don't say JMS is
> deprecated and nor do they say "openwire" is deprecated... although I found
> a blog that says openwire might one day be deprecated
> (https://blog.joshdreagan.com/2017/12/01/upgrading_amq_6_to_amq_7/).
>
> Should anyone be attempting to connecting a legacy NMS client application
> to
> AMQ 7? Or is that asking for trouble? Please help me understand if/how c#
> client applications will need to be changed once an AMQ broker is upgraded
> to AMQ 7.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>
--
Clebert Suconic
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Ragnar Paulson <ra...@gmail.com>.
As part of the NMS.AMQP project I can assure you that there is no intent to
replace any transport other than AMQP. The NMS API is a general .NET API
modeled after JMS. It can support a variety of transports (wireline
implementations), one of which is selected when you instantiate an instance
via the connection factory. If you look into the NMS API (
https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-api) there are currently 10
transports supported one of which is AMQP.
The NMS.AMQP project simply seeks to update the AMQP part of the
implementation, which had grown stale, with the AMQPNetLite open source
project.
I can't speak to the openWire transport, or AMQ7. As suggested otherwise
you would be best to contact the authors of those transports to see their
intentions for maintaining a module for the NMS API.
Regards,
Ragnar
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 8:47 PM dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
> The bugs I was encountering while connecting from NMS clients were exposed
> as
> error messages in the broker logs. They appeared to be Artemis bugs.
>
> This doesn't have to be a redhat-specific question. I can rephrase if you
> like. Is Apache Artemis supposed to be allowing connectivity from
> NMS-openwire clients? (If not, I assume there are incompatibilities that
> affect NMS and not JMS.)
>
> The following lists a number of protocols and API's that are supported in
> Artemis: https://activemq.apache.org/artemis/ Note that there is no
> mention
> of NMS at all.
>
>
> I see that one of my issues with NMS appears to have been fixed back in
> February. https://issues.jboss.org/browse/ENTMQBR-836
>
> Is there any reason for me to avoid using NMS with Artemis, or should I
> give
> it another shot? As I pointed out earlier, there were discussions about
> rebuilding the NMS API on top of AMQP, but I'd prefer to keep using the
> "openwire" variety of NMS as long as it is supported with Artemis.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com>.
The bugs I was encountering while connecting from NMS clients were exposed as
error messages in the broker logs. They appeared to be Artemis bugs.
This doesn't have to be a redhat-specific question. I can rephrase if you
like. Is Apache Artemis supposed to be allowing connectivity from
NMS-openwire clients? (If not, I assume there are incompatibilities that
affect NMS and not JMS.)
The following lists a number of protocols and API's that are supported in
Artemis: https://activemq.apache.org/artemis/ Note that there is no mention
of NMS at all.
I see that one of my issues with NMS appears to have been fixed back in
February. https://issues.jboss.org/browse/ENTMQBR-836
Is there any reason for me to avoid using NMS with Artemis, or should I give
it another shot? As I pointed out earlier, there were discussions about
rebuilding the NMS API on top of AMQP, but I'd prefer to keep using the
"openwire" variety of NMS as long as it is supported with Artemis.
--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
Re: Why the push to deprecate NMS-openwire?
Posted by Justin Bertram <jb...@apache.org>.
It seems to me that you're asking for an explanation about Red Hat's
official support policies on the ActiveMQ community developer's mailing
list which isn't the right place for such a discussion. If you want to
know more about Red Hat's policies you should engage them directly. As I
see it, this is a list for community related development matters, not for
commercial support (from whichever vendor).
Justin
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:22 PM, dbeavon <db...@ufpi.com> wrote:
> Can someone please clear up some confusion for me about NMS on Jboss AMQ 7
> (Artemis)?
>
> I am confused about why it has been "deprecated". The Jboss AMQ release
> notes say that "NMS messaging APIs are deprecated in AMQ 7". About a year
> ago I had done some of my own testing and ran into trouble fairly quickly.
> It was pretty clear that I was probably one of the first to try running an
> NMS client application that was connected to an Artemis broker.
>
> What is most unclear to me is why there is a double standard whereby Jboss
> AMQ fully supports JMS clients that connect to the broker on the "openwire"
> protocol, but they clearly discourage NMS clients that connect on the same
> "openwire" protocol. It would seem to me that if AMQ 7 fully supports the
> legacy JMS clients (based on "openwire"), then supporting NMS would only be
> a minor amount of additional work. It almost seems like someone is going
> out of their way to give c# programmers a poke in the eye.
>
>
> I did find a document ("sneak preview") about AMQ 7 that said NMS legacy
> clients would be supported. Did they change their minds? See this link:
> https://www.redhat.com/files/summit/session-assets/2016/
> SS88848-sneak-preview-of-next-generation-messaging-platform-
> red-hat-jboss-a-mq-7.pdf
>
>
> I am aware of a couple github projects (and related discussions) where work
> is underway to rebuild NMS on top of "AMQP".
>
> https://github.com/apache/activemq-nms-amqp
> https://github.com/cjwmorgan-sol/nms-amqp
>
>
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Rework-NMS-
> AMQP-td4721986i20.html
> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/Reword-NMS-for-
> AMQPNetLite-td4739536.html
>
>
> ... But this would all be unnecessary (or at least not very urgent) if AMQ
> 7
> fully supported NMS clients that are connecting via "openwire". In short,
> I
> don't understand why Jboss AMQ 7 has deprecated NMS but not the
> corresponding JMS clients running on "openwire". They don't say JMS is
> deprecated and nor do they say "openwire" is deprecated... although I found
> a blog that says openwire might one day be deprecated
> (https://blog.joshdreagan.com/2017/12/01/upgrading_amq_6_to_amq_7/).
>
> Should anyone be attempting to connecting a legacy NMS client application
> to
> AMQ 7? Or is that asking for trouble? Please help me understand if/how c#
> client applications will need to be changed once an AMQ broker is upgraded
> to AMQ 7.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> f2368404.html
>