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Posted to dev@river.apache.org by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> on 2008/08/29 06:45:28 UTC
What's up with River?
Hi,
The past two months have been very quiet... Are everyone on vacation
or otherwise occupied?
It is normal for development and discussions to slow down during the
summer (of the upper hemisphere), but a total lack of activity is
quite discouraging especially from the point of view of potential new
users and contributors.
Things looked healthy and there was slow but steady progress until
something like mid-June, but then something happened. What's up?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 7:36 AM, Jeff Ramsdale <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To become a committer at the Eclipse Foundation the employer of the
> nominee must sign a form indicating the position is the committer's
> own and by their merit rather than through their role in the company.
> If the developer leaves the company's employ he/she continues to
> maintain their committership at Eclipse. Even if the work is not being
> done on behalf of said company this form is required, in order to
> ensure there are no IP concerns with the code. This serves to support
> continuity in the various communities surrounding Eclipse projects.
>
> It is Sun's prerogative to pursue its other interests and I don't
> begrudge it that, but in the absence of a form at the Apache
> Foundation like that at Eclipse, I would hope Sun could and would
> allow its developers to participate in the Jini/River community on
> their own time should they choose to do so. I would be interested in a
> public statement from Sun indicating their position with regard to
> this issue. Following that, I'd be interested in hearing from any Sun
> employees concerning their own wishes and intents.
The form equivalent do exist in Apache, known to most as the Corporate
Contributors License Agreement (CCLA), which essentially indicates
that the employee has the right to contribute to Apache projects, and
any contribution from such individual contributor is considered an
contribution from the individual no matter if it is on paid working
hours or not. It is then an issue between the employee and the
employer to agree on the actual arrangement of working hours.
None-the-less, committers moving elsewhere carry with them the
committership.
So, as Jim indicates, it is a lot up to the individual what happens
when the employer withdraw the "working hour" support. But that is not
important, and I even think that for River, it can be liberating that
the Sun dominance is reduced somewhat, so that Dan, Greg(g) and others
can really be bold and go forward.
I think right now, River is seeking an identity, a purpose and with a
large codebase that is comparatively speaking rather solid, it is
perhaps daunting to start dreaming up new challenges. Let me throw in
some suggestions and see the reaction;
* Upgrade the JavaSpace reference implementation to be fully distributed.
* One liner convenience classes for connecting to a JavaSpace and
starting another node in the distributed one.
* Simplification of JERI usage.
* Allow non-Java to participate more easily in Jini networks, make it
easier to create SOAP capable services and clients.
* Integration work in general with non-Jini services, such as WS-*,
Rest, Corba...
Cheers
Niclas
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Jim Waldo <Ji...@sun.com>.
Sun absolutely does permit (indeed, encourages) its engineers to work
on open source, both as part of their job and on their own.
I can understand why Bob is stepping back, and Mark is absolutely
right to tell everyone that his group has moved to other things. But
that doesn't mean that all of the Sun committers are going away. In
particular, I will be watching the community, and contributing where I
can. It isn't my job (I'm now working on a different open source
project, http://projectdarkstar.com ; if any of you are interested
come on over), but on my own time I will still be associated with
River (and Jini).
Jim Waldo
On Sep 4, 2008, at 1:36 AM, Jeff Ramsdale wrote:
> To become a committer at the Eclipse Foundation the employer of the
> nominee must sign a form indicating the position is the committer's
> own and by their merit rather than through their role in the company.
> If the developer leaves the company's employ he/she continues to
> maintain their committership at Eclipse. Even if the work is not being
> done on behalf of said company this form is required, in order to
> ensure there are no IP concerns with the code. This serves to support
> continuity in the various communities surrounding Eclipse projects.
>
> It is Sun's prerogative to pursue its other interests and I don't
> begrudge it that, but in the absence of a form at the Apache
> Foundation like that at Eclipse, I would hope Sun could and would
> allow its developers to participate in the Jini/River community on
> their own time should they choose to do so. I would be interested in a
> public statement from Sun indicating their position with regard to
> this issue. Following that, I'd be interested in hearing from any Sun
> employees concerning their own wishes and intents.
>
> -jeff
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Holger Hoffstätte
> <ho...@wizards.de> wrote:
>> Dennis Reedy wrote:
>>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>>> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
>>>> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help
>>>> take
>>>> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
>>>> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>>>
>>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as
>>> well.
>>
>> Not that I have any votes to spare, but +1 anyway. :)
>> If anybody is qualified to move this thing forward it would be
>> Dennis.
>>
>> Holger
>>
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Jeff Ramsdale <je...@gmail.com>.
To become a committer at the Eclipse Foundation the employer of the
nominee must sign a form indicating the position is the committer's
own and by their merit rather than through their role in the company.
If the developer leaves the company's employ he/she continues to
maintain their committership at Eclipse. Even if the work is not being
done on behalf of said company this form is required, in order to
ensure there are no IP concerns with the code. This serves to support
continuity in the various communities surrounding Eclipse projects.
It is Sun's prerogative to pursue its other interests and I don't
begrudge it that, but in the absence of a form at the Apache
Foundation like that at Eclipse, I would hope Sun could and would
allow its developers to participate in the Jini/River community on
their own time should they choose to do so. I would be interested in a
public statement from Sun indicating their position with regard to
this issue. Following that, I'd be interested in hearing from any Sun
employees concerning their own wishes and intents.
-jeff
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Holger Hoffstätte <ho...@wizards.de> wrote:
> Dennis Reedy wrote:
>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
>>> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
>>> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
>>> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>>
>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as well.
>
> Not that I have any votes to spare, but +1 anyway. :)
> If anybody is qualified to move this thing forward it would be Dennis.
>
> Holger
>
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Holger Hoffstätte <ho...@wizards.de> wrote:
> Dennis Reedy wrote:
>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
>>> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
>>> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
>>> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>>
>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as well.
>
> Not that I have any votes to spare, but +1 anyway. :)
everyone in the community has a vote and is encouraged to express
their opinions, it's just that only votes from members on the PMC can
be binding on apache (in other words, take decisions on behalf of the
foundation). most of the time a healthy apache projects runs without
formal votes but the +1's are part of the culture.
> If anybody is qualified to move this thing forward it would be Dennis.
apache uses a diffuse leadership model. rather than appointing a clear
maintainer or leader, it's more like a cloud of interest. when people
in the community find that they have energy to spare, they step up.
when they have less energy to spare, people tend to contribute more to
shared decisions than to code. it sounds like though there will be a
lot less day work, there's still a lot of interest from these
committers. this is very positive. they can play a huge role by
mentoring other developers and guiding progress even when they don't
have the coding cycles.
- robert
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Holger Hoffstätte <ho...@wizards.de>.
Dennis Reedy wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
>> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
>> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
>> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>
> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as well.
Not that I have any votes to spare, but +1 anyway. :)
If anybody is qualified to move this thing forward it would be Dennis.
Holger
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Dennis,
On Sep 3, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Dennis Reedy wrote:
> Hi Craig,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I was not aware that a member of the community
> could move things forward, thats very interesting.
If a project loses steam (and committers) then it's entirely possible
for the community that has a vested interest in the project to try to
pick it up.
>
>
> Could the project (committers) provide some feedback on this?
That would be good.
> I had asked a similar question on AR2 (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200807.mbox/%3c9CE0773C-2DB8-46EB-BB33-1EC8DEA808D1@gmail.com%3e
> ) back on July 24th.
>
> Again, if there is something that I can help with, let me know
If you can take a more active role, I would encourage you to do so.
Having a significant chunk of the committers leave is a blow, but it
doesn't have to be fatal.
Craig
>
>
> Thanks and regards
>
> Dennis
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 740PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
>> Hi Dennis,
>>
>> It's good to see a community actively using the technology, with an
>> interest in moving River forward.
>>
>> The ability of River to graduate from incubation and server the
>> wider community is dependent on folks to pick up the ball and run
>> with it.
>>
>> I don't follow River closely, but it appears that the code base is
>> close to ready for release, and if that is the case, one of the
>> committers should pick up the task and release the code.
>>
>> If none of the committers is up to the task, then one of the
>> community can do it. Let's see what the community response is.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Dennis Reedy wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as
>>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> cool
>>>>
>>>> apache is often described as a do-ocracy: we get together to do
>>>> stuff
>>>> - and the stuff we do is open source software :-)
>>>>
>>>> one way to start kicking things off would be for people that have
>>>> energy to start throwing around ideas about directions and
>>>> developments that interest them
>>>>
>>>> (hopefully other people will jump in with other suggestions about
>>>> ways
>>>> to break the ice)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>> As a manner of introduction, I have been working with Jini
>>> technology for almost a decade and direct the Rio project (https://www.rio-project.org
>>> ) that uses Jini technology for a number of key capabilities. I
>>> have been in the "do" business for a number of years :)
>>>
>>> My concern with River is the inactivity and the eventual void that
>>> will be left when the Sun committers move on. Mark Hodapp had
>>> indicated that Sun's involvement is complete (see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c69A8C8DA-ED4C-4D32-8C9A-60A477E1681D@sun.com%3e)
>>> , and my subsequent reply for status (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c0B8DC774-E5D3-4F23-B80E-66409BCC0E6D@gmail.com%3e
>>> ) was left unanswered.
>>>
>>> With Bob Scheifler's last email I would think that the project
>>> really needs to make a decision on how to move things forward. Its
>>> not just about fixing the issues that are in Jira (there are quite
>>> a few), but also a matter of relevance and visibility. Those of us
>>> that latched on to Jini technology back when it started, and had
>>> the opportunity to develop and deploy Jini technology based
>>> systems certainly want to keep the River flowing (sorry).
>>>
>>> If I can be of help, please let me know.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com>.
Hi Craig,
Thanks for the reply. I was not aware that a member of the community
could move things forward, thats very interesting.
Could the project (committers) provide some feedback on this? I had
asked a similar question on AR2 (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200807.mbox/%3c9CE0773C-2DB8-46EB-BB33-1EC8DEA808D1@gmail.com%3e
) back on July 24th.
Again, if there is something that I can help with, let me know
Thanks and regards
Dennis
On Sep 3, 2008, at 740PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> Hi Dennis,
>
> It's good to see a community actively using the technology, with an
> interest in moving River forward.
>
> The ability of River to graduate from incubation and server the
> wider community is dependent on folks to pick up the ball and run
> with it.
>
> I don't follow River closely, but it appears that the code base is
> close to ready for release, and if that is the case, one of the
> committers should pick up the task and release the code.
>
> If none of the committers is up to the task, then one of the
> community can do it. Let's see what the community response is.
>
> Craig
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Dennis Reedy wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as
>>>> well.
>>>
>>> cool
>>>
>>> apache is often described as a do-ocracy: we get together to do
>>> stuff
>>> - and the stuff we do is open source software :-)
>>>
>>> one way to start kicking things off would be for people that have
>>> energy to start throwing around ideas about directions and
>>> developments that interest them
>>>
>>> (hopefully other people will jump in with other suggestions about
>>> ways
>>> to break the ice)
>>>
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> As a manner of introduction, I have been working with Jini
>> technology for almost a decade and direct the Rio project (https://www.rio-project.org
>> ) that uses Jini technology for a number of key capabilities. I
>> have been in the "do" business for a number of years :)
>>
>> My concern with River is the inactivity and the eventual void that
>> will be left when the Sun committers move on. Mark Hodapp had
>> indicated that Sun's involvement is complete (see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c69A8C8DA-ED4C-4D32-8C9A-60A477E1681D@sun.com%3e)
>> , and my subsequent reply for status (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c0B8DC774-E5D3-4F23-B80E-66409BCC0E6D@gmail.com%3e
>> ) was left unanswered.
>>
>> With Bob Scheifler's last email I would think that the project
>> really needs to make a decision on how to move things forward. Its
>> not just about fixing the issues that are in Jira (there are quite
>> a few), but also a matter of relevance and visibility. Those of us
>> that latched on to Jini technology back when it started, and had
>> the opportunity to develop and deploy Jini technology based systems
>> certainly want to keep the River flowing (sorry).
>>
>> If I can be of help, please let me know.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Dennis
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Dennis,
It's good to see a community actively using the technology, with an
interest in moving River forward.
The ability of River to graduate from incubation and server the wider
community is dependent on folks to pick up the ball and run with it.
I don't follow River closely, but it appears that the code base is
close to ready for release, and if that is the case, one of the
committers should pick up the task and release the code.
If none of the committers is up to the task, then one of the community
can do it. Let's see what the community response is.
Craig
On Sep 3, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Dennis Reedy wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as
>>> well.
>>
>> cool
>>
>> apache is often described as a do-ocracy: we get together to do stuff
>> - and the stuff we do is open source software :-)
>>
>> one way to start kicking things off would be for people that have
>> energy to start throwing around ideas about directions and
>> developments that interest them
>>
>> (hopefully other people will jump in with other suggestions about
>> ways
>> to break the ice)
>>
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> As a manner of introduction, I have been working with Jini
> technology for almost a decade and direct the Rio project (https://www.rio-project.org
> ) that uses Jini technology for a number of key capabilities. I have
> been in the "do" business for a number of years :)
>
> My concern with River is the inactivity and the eventual void that
> will be left when the Sun committers move on. Mark Hodapp had
> indicated that Sun's involvement is complete (see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c69A8C8DA-ED4C-4D32-8C9A-60A477E1681D@sun.com%3e)
> , and my subsequent reply for status (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c0B8DC774-E5D3-4F23-B80E-66409BCC0E6D@gmail.com%3e
> ) was left unanswered.
>
> With Bob Scheifler's last email I would think that the project
> really needs to make a decision on how to move things forward. Its
> not just about fixing the issues that are in Jira (there are quite a
> few), but also a matter of relevance and visibility. Those of us
> that latched on to Jini technology back when it started, and had the
> opportunity to develop and deploy Jini technology based systems
> certainly want to keep the River flowing (sorry).
>
> If I can be of help, please let me know.
>
> Regards
>
> Dennis
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com>.
>>>
>>
>> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as
>> well.
>
> cool
>
> apache is often described as a do-ocracy: we get together to do stuff
> - and the stuff we do is open source software :-)
>
> one way to start kicking things off would be for people that have
> energy to start throwing around ideas about directions and
> developments that interest them
>
> (hopefully other people will jump in with other suggestions about ways
> to break the ice)
>
Hi Robert,
As a manner of introduction, I have been working with Jini technology
for almost a decade and direct the Rio project (https://www.rio-project.org
) that uses Jini technology for a number of key capabilities. I have
been in the "do" business for a number of years :)
My concern with River is the inactivity and the eventual void that
will be left when the Sun committers move on. Mark Hodapp had
indicated that Sun's involvement is complete (see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c69A8C8DA-ED4C-4D32-8C9A-60A477E1681D@sun.com%3e)
, and my subsequent reply for status (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-river-dev/200808.mbox/%3c0B8DC774-E5D3-4F23-B80E-66409BCC0E6D@gmail.com%3e
) was left unanswered.
With Bob Scheifler's last email I would think that the project really
needs to make a decision on how to move things forward. Its not just
about fixing the issues that are in Jira (there are quite a few), but
also a matter of relevance and visibility. Those of us that latched on
to Jini technology back when it started, and had the opportunity to
develop and deploy Jini technology based systems certainly want to
keep the River flowing (sorry).
If I can be of help, please let me know.
Regards
Dennis
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> It seems that 10 of the existing 17 committers are from Sun, is there a
>>> plan
>>> to increase the committer list and roll off the Sun resources? If so can
>>> that be discussed?
>>
>> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
>> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
>> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
>> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>>
>
> I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as well.
cool
apache is often described as a do-ocracy: we get together to do stuff
- and the stuff we do is open source software :-)
one way to start kicking things off would be for people that have
energy to start throwing around ideas about directions and
developments that interest them
(hopefully other people will jump in with other suggestions about ways
to break the ice)
- robert
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com>.
On Sep 3, 2008, at 516PM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Dennis Reedy
> <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> It seems that 10 of the existing 17 committers are from Sun, is
>> there a plan
>> to increase the committer list and roll off the Sun resources? If
>> so can
>> that be discussed?
>
> incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
> elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
> the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
> people with energy and interest to jump in...
>
I am ready and willing to jump in, I am sure there are others as well.
Regards
Dennis
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It seems that 10 of the existing 17 committers are from Sun, is there a plan
> to increase the committer list and roll off the Sun resources? If so can
> that be discussed?
incubation projects are run on the apache model: committers are
elected. provided people are interested in river and want to help take
the code forward, there shouldn't be any problem. what's needed is
people with energy and interest to jump in...
- robert
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Dennis Reedy <de...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
It seems that 10 of the existing 17 committers are from Sun, is there
a plan to increase the committer list and roll off the Sun resources?
If so can that be discussed?
Thanks
Dennis
On Sep 3, 2008, at 1153AM, Bob Scheifler wrote:
> Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> The past two months have been very quiet... Are everyone on vacation
>> or otherwise occupied?
>
> Changes in my job mean I'm unlikely to have much of any time
> to contribute going forward, unfortunately. I suspect that's
> also true of other committers who work at Sun.
>
> - Bob
>
Re: What's up with River?
Posted by Bob Scheifler <Bo...@Sun.COM>.
Jukka Zitting wrote:
> The past two months have been very quiet... Are everyone on vacation
> or otherwise occupied?
Changes in my job mean I'm unlikely to have much of any time
to contribute going forward, unfortunately. I suspect that's
also true of other committers who work at Sun.
- Bob