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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> on 2005/11/12 17:10:24 UTC
Status of OGNL 3.0?
Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
as I remember.
--
/ted
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Scott Russell <sc...@hotmail.com>.
Isn't it open source? I've looked into the source code. Some things are done
very cleanly (ie. the antler syntax, he handler classes), whereas some are
done in a very clumsy non-OO manner (ie. the actual reflection uses static
method calls and crosses several class boundaries back and forth). It
wouldn't be inconceivable for someone to fork the source code off and
actively develop and improve it.
I quite like OGNL, because as expression languages go, its got quite a lot of
powerful syntax features that you don't find in the competition, like JSP
expression language.
-Scott
On Sun 13 November 2005 03:15, Geoff Longman wrote:
> I dunno. Lets go to the source...
>
> Well Drew?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> > There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> > as I remember.
> >
> > --
> > /ted
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
>From Tapestry's point of view, OGNL is not quite replaceable, but close.
OGNL is the default binding prefix outside the HTML template; perhpas
this could be changed based on some kind of meta data, but for the
moment, it's hard coded.
In addition, OGNL is used inside script template files.
Outside of that ... OGNL isn't tied into Tapestry. All the different
binding prefixes (ognl:,
message:, asset:, component:, etc.) are defined within a configuration point,
and anything else contributed into the configuration point is on an
equal footing.
The only other aspect of OGNL is that it is used internally by a
number of components
in the framework, and in the contrib library.
On 11/12/05, Patrick Casey <pa...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd rather use Javascript, if for no other reason than
> it's the same language as the client side scripts. I'd think if you had to
> bet on what scripting language a random java web developer would know,
> javascript would be the way to bet. I don't know Howard's internals well
> enough to assess how practical that'd be though e.g. my naïve approach of
> just creating a context for each page render might have hidden problems.
>
> That and, as others have mentioned, OGNL seems to be kaput :(.
>
>
> --- Pat
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Drew McAuliffe [mailto:drewmca@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:30 PM
> > To: Tapestry users
> > Subject: Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
> >
> > OGNL is pretty heavily used in Webwork as well as Tapestry. I use both on
> > a
> > regular basis and am happy with the fact that I don't have to switch
> > between
> > obj nav syntax.
>
>
>
>
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>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
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RE: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Patrick Casey <pa...@adelphia.net>.
Personally, I'd rather use Javascript, if for no other reason than
it's the same language as the client side scripts. I'd think if you had to
bet on what scripting language a random java web developer would know,
javascript would be the way to bet. I don't know Howard's internals well
enough to assess how practical that'd be though e.g. my naïve approach of
just creating a context for each page render might have hidden problems.
That and, as others have mentioned, OGNL seems to be kaput :(.
--- Pat
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drew McAuliffe [mailto:drewmca@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:30 PM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
>
> OGNL is pretty heavily used in Webwork as well as Tapestry. I use both on
> a
> regular basis and am happy with the fact that I don't have to switch
> between
> obj nav syntax.
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Drew McAuliffe <dr...@gmail.com>.
OGNL is pretty heavily used in Webwork as well as Tapestry. I use both on a
regular basis and am happy with the fact that I don't have to switch between
obj nav syntax.
On 11/12/05, Patrick Casey <pa...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
> Back in "the day", before all these wonderful (and I mean this
> non-sarcastically) open source libraries like OGNL appeared and I had to
> do
> my own runtime data binding and java reflection was *really* slow (like
> glacial slow), I toyed with a system that actually generated synthetic
> proxy
> classes and compiled them at runtime.
>
> It was a nightmare from a standpoint of flushing the classloader, so
> god help you if you ever wanted to *change* one of these proxy classes
> without cycling the JVM, but you did end up with a real, live,
> non-reflection based way to access your properties. Since java ships with
> a
> runtime compiler, I'm actually surprised more people don't use it.
>
> There's also CGLIB which I've never worked with myself, although
> Hibernate uses it so I have to assume it A) works and B) runs fast since
> those folks are serious performance Nazis.
>
> http://cglib.sourceforge.net/
>
>
> I for one would love to see OGNL go bye-bye because A) Tapestry's
> the only place I know of where it's used so it's an orphan syntax B) it
> doesn't look to be actively developed anymore and C) There's other stuff
> out
> there that's probably either faster or more syntactically consistent
> (CGLIB,
> Rhino, Groovy, etc).
>
>
> Which raises an alternate question: how hard would it be to plug in
> another databinder to the framework? E.g. if somebody wanted to take the
> time to build either a bytecode enhancement layer and/or integrate Rhino,
> would it be pluggable as a HiveMind service, or would some serious surgery
> have to happen to extricate OGNL dependencies?
>
> --- Pat
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jesse Kuhnert [mailto:jkuhnert@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:38 AM
> > To: Tapestry users
> > Subject: Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
> >
> > http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/11/improving-tapestry-
> > performance.html
> > On 11/12/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I dunno. Lets go to the source...
> > >
> > > Well Drew?
> > >
> > > Geoff
> > >
> > > On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> > > > There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> > > > as I remember.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > /ted
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
Yes, but that is not a full fledged expression based solution. Hardly
a replacement for ognl.
Geoff
On 11/12/05, Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/11/improving-tapestry-performance.html
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
Part of the point of the blog entry referred to previously is that it
is possible to add new data binding schemes.
Geoff
On 11/12/05, Patrick Casey <pa...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Back in "the day", before all these wonderful (and I mean this
> non-sarcastically) open source libraries like OGNL appeared and I had to do
> my own runtime data binding and java reflection was *really* slow (like
> glacial slow), I toyed with a system that actually generated synthetic proxy
> classes and compiled them at runtime.
>
> It was a nightmare from a standpoint of flushing the classloader, so
> god help you if you ever wanted to *change* one of these proxy classes
> without cycling the JVM, but you did end up with a real, live,
> non-reflection based way to access your properties. Since java ships with a
> runtime compiler, I'm actually surprised more people don't use it.
>
> There's also CGLIB which I've never worked with myself, although
> Hibernate uses it so I have to assume it A) works and B) runs fast since
> those folks are serious performance Nazis.
>
> http://cglib.sourceforge.net/
>
>
> I for one would love to see OGNL go bye-bye because A) Tapestry's
> the only place I know of where it's used so it's an orphan syntax B) it
> doesn't look to be actively developed anymore and C) There's other stuff out
> there that's probably either faster or more syntactically consistent (CGLIB,
> Rhino, Groovy, etc).
>
>
> Which raises an alternate question: how hard would it be to plug in
> another databinder to the framework? E.g. if somebody wanted to take the
> time to build either a bytecode enhancement layer and/or integrate Rhino,
> would it be pluggable as a HiveMind service, or would some serious surgery
> have to happen to extricate OGNL dependencies?
>
> --- Pat
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jesse Kuhnert [mailto:jkuhnert@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:38 AM
> > To: Tapestry users
> > Subject: Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
> >
> > http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/11/improving-tapestry-
> > performance.html
> > On 11/12/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I dunno. Lets go to the source...
> > >
> > > Well Drew?
> > >
> > > Geoff
> > >
> > > On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> > > > There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> > > > as I remember.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > /ted
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> > > Get help with Spindle:
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> > >
> > >
> >
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>
>
>
>
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RE: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Patrick Casey <pa...@adelphia.net>.
Back in "the day", before all these wonderful (and I mean this
non-sarcastically) open source libraries like OGNL appeared and I had to do
my own runtime data binding and java reflection was *really* slow (like
glacial slow), I toyed with a system that actually generated synthetic proxy
classes and compiled them at runtime.
It was a nightmare from a standpoint of flushing the classloader, so
god help you if you ever wanted to *change* one of these proxy classes
without cycling the JVM, but you did end up with a real, live,
non-reflection based way to access your properties. Since java ships with a
runtime compiler, I'm actually surprised more people don't use it.
There's also CGLIB which I've never worked with myself, although
Hibernate uses it so I have to assume it A) works and B) runs fast since
those folks are serious performance Nazis.
http://cglib.sourceforge.net/
I for one would love to see OGNL go bye-bye because A) Tapestry's
the only place I know of where it's used so it's an orphan syntax B) it
doesn't look to be actively developed anymore and C) There's other stuff out
there that's probably either faster or more syntactically consistent (CGLIB,
Rhino, Groovy, etc).
Which raises an alternate question: how hard would it be to plug in
another databinder to the framework? E.g. if somebody wanted to take the
time to build either a bytecode enhancement layer and/or integrate Rhino,
would it be pluggable as a HiveMind service, or would some serious surgery
have to happen to extricate OGNL dependencies?
--- Pat
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Kuhnert [mailto:jkuhnert@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:38 AM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
>
> http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/11/improving-tapestry-
> performance.html
> On 11/12/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I dunno. Lets go to the source...
> >
> > Well Drew?
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> > On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> > > There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> > > as I remember.
> > >
> > > --
> > > /ted
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> > Get help with Spindle:
> > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
> > Announcement Feed:
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> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2005/11/improving-tapestry-performance.html
On 11/12/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I dunno. Lets go to the source...
>
> Well Drew?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> > There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> > as I remember.
> >
> > --
> > /ted
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Drew Davidson <dr...@ognl.org>.
Development has not stopped. Patrick Lightbody of OpenSymphony/WebWork2
has graciously donated his time to move OGNL over to OpenSymphony.
http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
My time has been limited for OGNL development of late. My job at Apple
and trying to renovate a new house and working on/selling my existing
house has been consuming my time to the determinent of OGNL
development. I'm going to get back into it over the holiday, after I've
nailed down some of these other tasks.
Anyone interested in helping is certainly welcome. I would like a code
review of my current architecture for 2.7.0. Anyone with significant
experience in code generation (I've tried using both Javassist and
Janino) and an eye for how to make OGNL work with this is welcome to
give it a whirl. My main concern is that the dynamic nature of OGNL
makes it very difficult to "compile" it - you don't know until runtime
which class exists at a particular execution node.
OGNL 3.0 turned out to be a bit of dead-end. The API incompatibility
was really too much of hurdle. I think that the architecture can be
extended meaninfully with the given API (even though it's a bit dated).
- Drew
Geoff Longman wrote:
>I dunno. Lets go to the source...
>
>Well Drew?
>
>Geoff
>
>On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
>>There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
>>as I remember.
>>
>>--
>>/ted
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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--
+---------------------------------+
< Drew Davidson | OGNL Technology >
+---------------------------------+
| Email: drew@ognl.org /
| Web: http://www.ognl.org /
| Vox: (520) 531-1966 <
| Fax: (520) 531-1965 \
| Mobile: (520) 405-2967 \
+---------------------------------+
Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
I dunno. Lets go to the source...
Well Drew?
Geoff
On 11/12/05, Ted Steen <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> as I remember.
>
> --
> /ted
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Robert Zeigler <ro...@scazdl.org>.
:) Like I said... I know it moved there a bit ago... and have no idea
what has happened since then. (Although, someone pointed out that there
is a bug is 2.6.7, and the opensymphony site has docs for, at least,
ognl 2.6.8. Dunno if the bug is fixed or not, but it implies that at
least some movement has been made with ognl (again... don't know how
long ago.:) We'll see... :)
Robert
Geoff Longman wrote:
> I just posted an "is anybody there?" message to the OGNL forum at Open
> Symphony. Although the last post there was in July.
>
> We'll see...
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
> On 11/12/05, Robert Zeigler <ro...@scazdl.org> wrote:
>
>>It's been moved to opensymphony. Not sure what else is going on with it
>>other than that.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl
>>
>>
>>Richard Clark wrote:
>>
>>>I suspect it's being neglected. There's a fairly awful bug in 2.6.7 (it
>>>mishandles Object.equals in such a way that it kills our major Tapestry
>>>app dead; I've had to work-around by making all my objects Comparable),
>>>and I tried to report it to the ognl-developers mailing list. But,
>>>lists.ognl.org doesn't exist anymore. I've also emailed this to Drew
>>>(OGNL's author) several times in September without a response.
>>>
>>>If OGNL has a pulse, it's weak and thready.
>>>
>>> ...Richard
>>>
>>>On Nov 12, 2005, at 8:10, Ted Steen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
>>>>There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
>>>>as I remember.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>/ted
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
I just posted an "is anybody there?" message to the OGNL forum at Open
Symphony. Although the last post there was in July.
We'll see...
Geoff
On 11/12/05, Robert Zeigler <ro...@scazdl.org> wrote:
> It's been moved to opensymphony. Not sure what else is going on with it
> other than that.
>
> Robert
>
> http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl
>
>
> Richard Clark wrote:
> > I suspect it's being neglected. There's a fairly awful bug in 2.6.7 (it
> > mishandles Object.equals in such a way that it kills our major Tapestry
> > app dead; I've had to work-around by making all my objects Comparable),
> > and I tried to report it to the ognl-developers mailing list. But,
> > lists.ognl.org doesn't exist anymore. I've also emailed this to Drew
> > (OGNL's author) several times in September without a response.
> >
> > If OGNL has a pulse, it's weak and thready.
> >
> > ...Richard
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2005, at 8:10, Ted Steen wrote:
> >
> >> Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> >> There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> >> as I remember.
> >>
> >> --
> >> /ted
> >>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Robert Zeigler <ro...@scazdl.org>.
It's been moved to opensymphony. Not sure what else is going on with it
other than that.
Robert
http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl
Richard Clark wrote:
> I suspect it's being neglected. There's a fairly awful bug in 2.6.7 (it
> mishandles Object.equals in such a way that it kills our major Tapestry
> app dead; I've had to work-around by making all my objects Comparable),
> and I tried to report it to the ognl-developers mailing list. But,
> lists.ognl.org doesn't exist anymore. I've also emailed this to Drew
> (OGNL's author) several times in September without a response.
>
> If OGNL has a pulse, it's weak and thready.
>
> ...Richard
>
> On Nov 12, 2005, at 8:10, Ted Steen wrote:
>
>> Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
>> There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
>> as I remember.
>>
>> --
>> /ted
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>>
>
>
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Re: Status of OGNL 3.0?
Posted by Richard Clark <rd...@nextquestion.net>.
I suspect it's being neglected. There's a fairly awful bug in 2.6.7
(it mishandles Object.equals in such a way that it kills our major
Tapestry app dead; I've had to work-around by making all my objects
Comparable), and I tried to report it to the ognl-developers mailing
list. But, lists.ognl.org doesn't exist anymore. I've also emailed
this to Drew (OGNL's author) several times in September without a
response.
If OGNL has a pulse, it's weak and thready.
...Richard
On Nov 12, 2005, at 8:10, Ted Steen wrote:
> Is OGNL 3.0 ever going to be finished, or has development stoped?
> There where some serious speed improvements promised for 3.0, as far
> as I remember.
>
> --
> /ted
>
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