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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> on 2011/09/08 10:09:04 UTC
[PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Hi all,
I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as
users@ja.openoffice.org, announce@ja.openoffice.org,
dev@ja.openoffice.org, discuss@ja.openoffice.org,
documentation@ja.openoffice.org, marketing@ja.openoffice.org,
qa@ja.openoffice.org, translate@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I
would like to invite subscribers
on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org.
We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read
English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list,
ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many
things related to Apache OpenOffice.org.
1) To understand the proposal
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja
2) To understand the status
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
3) To read and navigate pages on the site
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache
http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
5) To learn how to use wikis
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/
http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/
6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list.
7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and
after AOOo release.
8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo
Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with
Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo
developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org
project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better
"in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read
English.
We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese"
everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature
requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product
and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org
users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand
what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project.
ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good
communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and
working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people.
I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
1. Kazunari Hirano
2. Maho Nakata
If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
Thanks,
khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Maho NAKATA <ma...@apache.org>.
+1 from Nakata Maho,
since it's very important to have a channel in each language.
Thanks,
Nakata Maho
2011/9/8 Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
>
> As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as
> users@ja.openoffice.org, announce@ja.openoffice.org,
> dev@ja.openoffice.org, discuss@ja.openoffice.org,
> documentation@ja.openoffice.org, marketing@ja.openoffice.org,
> qa@ja.openoffice.org, translate@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I
> would like to invite subscribers
> on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org.
>
> We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read
> English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list,
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many
> things related to Apache OpenOffice.org.
> 1) To understand the proposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja
> 2) To understand the status
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
> 3) To read and navigate pages on the site
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
> 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> 5) To learn how to use wikis
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/
> http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/
> 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list.
> 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and
> after AOOo release.
> 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo
>
> Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with
> Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo
> developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org
> project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better
> "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read
> English.
>
> We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese"
> everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature
> requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product
> and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org
> users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand
> what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project.
>
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good
> communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and
> working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people.
>
> I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> 1. Kazunari Hirano
> 2. Maho Nakata
>
> If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
> I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@web.de>.
Hello,
Dave Fisher schrieb:
> > if you mix everything like user questions and answers,
> marketing, QA
> > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
> >
> > But it seems to be the way it is.
> > so ... I wish you all the best.
>
> I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users.
> What are the other categories besides marketing that users
> should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to
> only have additional lists for good reason and with careful
> consideration of the community and our oversight
> responsibilities to the ASF.
It is very, very simple.
The list users@de.openoffice.org is a list ONLY for german-speaking users. This
users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot write
questions in english.
The list users@de.openoffice.org is a support-list for users, not a list to
coordinate the activity of the project-members.
OK, we can replace users@de.openoffice.org by a german forum but the users just
like users@de.openoffice.org, and it would be better to have a German-language
forum AND a german USERS-list.
Greetings
Jörg
--
www.calc-info.de
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Sep 8, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
> Hi Kazunari-san, all
>
> 2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de>
>
>> Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano:
>>
>>>
>>>
> [...]
>
>
>>
>>> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or
>>> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"?
>>> (xx is ISO language code)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> khirano
>>>
>>
>> +1 for "ooo-general-ja".
>>
>> As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing
>> people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's
>> make this visible with the name of the mailing list.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>
> if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et
> cetra
> on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
>
> But it seems to be the way it is.
> so ... I wish you all the best.
I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users. What are the other categories besides marketing that users should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to only have additional lists for good reason and with careful consideration of the community and our oversight responsibilities to the ASF.
The dev / users set of lists is a very usual pattern at Apache. Having "what happens" be in English is one thing, but it is a disadvantage for much of the world. I know that I would have a difficult time writing German email, but I would have a small chance after sufficient immersion. I would be at a complete loss in a Chinese or Brazilian ML.
If there are ooo-users-de and ooo-dev-de MLs then the purpose of ooo-users-de is clear while ooo-dev-de would be a catch all for German language discussions about issues of concern to the German speaking community - marketing, translation, and documentation.
Raphael did a test migration de.openoffice.org and it clearly will need updates. To me that would be better done in German.
So, I am for NL dev lists. We'll just need to find a good way to do oversight in English. Considering that there are a minimum of 7 Germans or Swiss on http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/people.html. There are 15 people from English speaking countries listed. There are 6 Chinese (including Taiwan) who are beginning to appear.
How would the whole PPMC provide governance for NL projects with a necessary ooo-dev-$LANG ML? Clearly we'll have to have a critical mass of PPMC to have a list.
Should we have an experiment with German?
Regards,
Dave
>
> Keen to hear from your experiment ;-)
>
>
> follows a message only to german speakers:
> @ an alle deutschsprachigen hier:
> Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen
> Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese
> Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo.
>
> Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert.
>
> Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit
> und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren,
> ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer
> anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren.
>
> Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des
> Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von
> "Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein,
> dass es nicht sein muss.
>
> Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht.
> Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch
> bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit
> zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen
> Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen.
>
> --
> ## Manfred Reiter
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by "Manfred A. Reiter" <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hi Dave,
thank you very much for asking ;-)
Am 8. September 2011 19:59 schrieb Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>:
> Hi Manfred,
>
> The German I learned in school 35 years ago is enough for me to know that it would be polite if you would provide a rough translation.
>
it was really addressed to the german speaking people here on the list ;-)
sorry for that ...
> As far as foreign language MLs here for DE - has there been a proposal? Is this what you are discussing?
you will get a private mail ;-)
once more sorry to post in a different language on an englisch spoken ML
>
> Danke,
:-)
bitte schön ;-)
M.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Manfred,
The German I learned in school 35 years ago is enough for me to know that it would be polite if you would provide a rough translation.
As far as foreign language MLs here for DE - has there been a proposal? Is this what you are discussing?
Danke,
Dave
On Sep 8, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
> Hi Kazunari-san, all
>
> 2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de>
>
>> Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano:
>>
>>>
>>>
> [...]
>
>
>>
>>> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or
>>> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"?
>>> (xx is ISO language code)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> khirano
>>>
>>
>> +1 for "ooo-general-ja".
>>
>> As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing
>> people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's
>> make this visible with the name of the mailing list.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>
> if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et
> cetra
> on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
>
> But it seems to be the way it is.
> so ... I wish you all the best.
>
> Keen to hear from your experiment ;-)
>
>
> follows a message only to german speakers:
> @ an alle deutschsprachigen hier:
> Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen
> Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese
> Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo.
>
> Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert.
>
> Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit
> und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren,
> ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer
> anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren.
>
> Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des
> Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von
> "Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein,
> dass es nicht sein muss.
>
> Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht.
> Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch
> bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit
> zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen
> Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen.
>
> --
> ## Manfred Reiter
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Manfred and all,
2011/9/9 Manfred A. Reiter <ma...@gmail.com>:
> If you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et
> cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
I know :)
I will invite Japanese people on xxx@ja.openoffice.org lists to
ooo-general-ja@incubator,apache.org
We don't know how many will come and subscribe to the list.
We don't know how many new AOOo users will come and subscribe to the list.
If many AOOo newbies come to the list, we may have to ask them to put
[user] tag to Subject when they post their question to the list. If
many marketers come, we ask them to put [marketing] tag. If many
translators come, we ask them to put [translation] tag. They will be
in Japanese, [ユーザー] [マーケティング] [翻訳] :)
Or we may think about creation of ooo-user-ja at incubator.apache.org,
ooo-marketing-ja at incubator.apache.org and/or ooo-translation-ja at
incubator.apache.org and so on, and make proposals to ooo-dev at
incubator.apache.org.
We would like to discuss these things on the list in Japanese.
It is natural, we, Japanese, can think quick in Japanese, can
communicate smoothly in Japanese, can have quality discussion in
Japanese, then we can make a good feedback, a good proposal and a good
report to ooo-dev at incubator.apache.org.
> But it seems to be the way it is.
> so ... I wish you all the best.
Thanks.
> Keen to hear from your experiment ;-)
Right. Experiment.
:)
We do it, and we will find what works and what doesn't work.
:)
Thanks,
khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by "Manfred A. Reiter" <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hi Kazunari-san, all
2011/9/8 Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de>
> Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano:
>
>>
>>
[...]
>
>> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or
>> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"?
>> (xx is ISO language code)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> khirano
>>
>
> +1 for "ooo-general-ja".
>
> As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing
> people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So, let's
> make this visible with the name of the mailing list.
>
> Marcus
>
if you mix everything like user questions and answers, marketing, QA et
cetra
on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
But it seems to be the way it is.
so ... I wish you all the best.
Keen to hear from your experiment ;-)
follows a message only to german speakers:
@ an alle deutschsprachigen hier:
Ich gehe jetzt ins off, weil ich nicht mehr bereit, diese endlosen
Diskussion über *eine* zusätzliche Mailingliste zu führen. Genau diese
Diskussionen hatten wir vor 10 Jahren vor dem 1. Geburtstag von OOo.
Ja, ich weiss, die Zeiten haben sich geändert.
Aber man muss auch wissen, ob man viele Menschen, die bereit
und willens sind, OOo weiterhin in lokalen Märkten zu platzieren,
ausschließt, nur weil sie nicht bereit oder willens sind in einer
anderen Sprache als ihrer Muttersprache zu organisieren.
Nein, ich halte diese Haltung nicht für eine Form des
Sprach-Kolonialismus, aber ich halte es eine Form von
"Kontrollitis" ... mag sein, dass es sein muss ... mag sein,
dass es nicht sein muss.
Ich bin bereit anzuerkennen, was geht und was nicht geht.
Sollte irgendwann einmal die Möglichkeit bestehen auch
bei AOOo wenigsten zwei Listen für eine Sprache bereit
zu stellen ... eine für die users und eine für die übrigen
Dinge, dann kann man mich gerne wieder ansprechen.
--
## Manfred Reiter
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/08/2011 02:26 PM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano:
> Hi Rob and all,
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Rob Weir<ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org?
>
> No, I have.
>
>> What do you think?
>
> Good idea.
>
>> In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the
>> name "ooo-general-jp".
> "jp" means Japan, the country name.
> So it should be "ooo-general-ja"
> "ja" means Japanese, the language name.
>
> I think other language speaking people may want to have a similar
> mailing list in their language within the AOOo incubator project..
> So I would like to learn what they think.
>
> All,
>
> Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or
> "ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"?
> (xx is ISO language code)
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
+1 for "ooo-general-ja".
As you want to open the list not only for dev's but for users, marketing
people, QA, etc. I expect a bunsh of very different subscribers. So,
let's make this visible with the name of the mailing list.
Marcus
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Rob and all,
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org?
No, I have.
> What do you think?
Good idea.
> In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the
> name "ooo-general-jp".
"jp" means Japan, the country name.
So it should be "ooo-general-ja"
"ja" means Japanese, the language name.
I think other language speaking people may want to have a similar
mailing list in their language within the AOOo incubator project..
So I would like to learn what they think.
All,
Which do you prefer, "ooo-general-xx at incubator.apache.org" or
"ooo-dev-xx at incubator.apache.org"?
(xx is ISO language code)
Thanks,
khirano
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi Rob,
On Thursday, 2011-09-08 08:01:00 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the
> name "ooo-general-jp".
<nitpick>
As this is for Japanese and not Japan it should be ooo-general-ja instead.
</nitpick>
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
>
> As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as
> users@ja.openoffice.org, announce@ja.openoffice.org,
> dev@ja.openoffice.org, discuss@ja.openoffice.org,
> documentation@ja.openoffice.org, marketing@ja.openoffice.org,
> qa@ja.openoffice.org, translate@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I
> would like to invite subscribers
> on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org.
>
Have you considered the name: ooo-general-jp.incubator.apache.org?
Some other Apache lists have a "general" list as well. I think the
idea is to use that for lists that cover more than just dev
discussions. Since you want the jp list to cover users, doc,
marketing, translate, etc., as well as dev, then "general" might be a
good pattern to adopt.
What do you think?
In any case, +1 for Japanese list, with a slight preference for the
name "ooo-general-jp".
-Rob
> We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read
> English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list,
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many
> things related to Apache OpenOffice.org.
> 1) To understand the proposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja
> 2) To understand the status
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
> 3) To read and navigate pages on the site
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
> 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> 5) To learn how to use wikis
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/
> http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/
> 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list.
> 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and
> after AOOo release.
> 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo
>
> Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with
> Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo
> developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org
> project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better
> "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read
> English.
>
> We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese"
> everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature
> requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product
> and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org
> users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand
> what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project.
>
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good
> communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and
> working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people.
>
> I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> 1. Kazunari Hirano
> 2. Maho Nakata
>
> If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
> I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/08/2011 10:09 AM, schrieb Kazunari Hirano:
> [...]
>
> I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> 1. Kazunari Hirano
> 2. Maho Nakata
>
> If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
> I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
Great, lets start with a mailing list for Japanese-speaking people. This
community was strong in the past and I doubt that it will change now.
Maybe there is something to learn before we expand the number of
non-English lists.
Marcus
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>.
On 12 September 2011 12:52, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> > On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that
> no
> >>> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All
> >>> decisions must be made here.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume
> you
> >> mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual
> >> property, rather than things like language translations, localisation
> and
> >> marketing?
> >
> > Yes, that is correct.
> >
> >> So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference
> >> in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the
> >> latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have
> accepted
> >> the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to
> understand
> >> the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply.
> >
> > There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a
> > "dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted
> > guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think
> > this is workable in OOo.
> >
> > What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types
> > of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would
> > say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries
> > (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core
> > English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal
> > here.
>
> <snip>
>
> I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might
> be made that effect "only" interests in a single country.
Distinction between country and language? US English and UK English have
some differences and the countries are very distinct but in OOo there was
never a separation in terms of native languages.
> I don't
> think there is such thing. Certainly there might be some members of
> this project who are interested in only the Japanese version, or only
> the English version or only the French version of AOOo. But there are
> also many others -- and I count myself as one of them -- who are
> interested in creating a localized office suite that can be deployed
> to larger multinational corporations and other institutions. So my
> interests cut across all languages. I wouldn't assume that just
> because I don't speak Japanese that I don't have a strong interest in
> the success of the Japanese version of AOOo, or that I cannot tap into
> Japanese language expertise to help evaluate a proposal.
>
This is partly my reason for posting to the other thread Ross started. Let's
try and work out some sort of agreed code of practice that is generic rather
than this specifically Japanese issue. If the NL projects agreed that
builds always get made and released through the ASF central infrastructure
would that solve most of the issues? Is it practically feasible?
In other words the stakeholders for AOOo are more than just individual
> end-users who download and install the product. The stakeholders also
> include downstream consumers, distributors, hardware vendors who
> bundle, etc. Some of these interests are represented on the PPMC.
> And their interests often transcend a single language.
>
>
> -Rob
>
--
Ian
Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 12 September 2011 12:52, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
...
>> What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types
>> of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would
>> say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries
>> (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core
>> English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal
>> here.
>
> <snip>
>
> I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might
> be made that effect "only" interests in a single country. I don't
> think there is such thing.
If you are talking about decisions that affect the code then I agree.
However, there might be decisions such as "do we have mugs or t-shirts
as a giveaway at the hacker session we are holding at the Japanese
user conference next month" or "is the correct translation of '"Print
to cloud " ... or ..."
There are always exceptions to every rule and we don't need to
slavishly apply every rule to every circumstance. Our goal should be
to ensure that the people taking ownership of "other" lists understand
where the boundaries lie and take responsibility for ensuring those
boundaries are respected.
Ross
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>
>>> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no
>>> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All
>>> decisions must be made here.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you
>> mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual
>> property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and
>> marketing?
>
> Yes, that is correct.
>
>> So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference
>> in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the
>> latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted
>> the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand
>> the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply.
>
> There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a
> "dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted
> guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think
> this is workable in OOo.
>
> What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types
> of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would
> say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries
> (any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core
> English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal
> here.
<snip>
I'd like to challenge the concept that there are decisions that might
be made that effect "only" interests in a single country. I don't
think there is such thing. Certainly there might be some members of
this project who are interested in only the Japanese version, or only
the English version or only the French version of AOOo. But there are
also many others -- and I count myself as one of them -- who are
interested in creating a localized office suite that can be deployed
to larger multinational corporations and other institutions. So my
interests cut across all languages. I wouldn't assume that just
because I don't speak Japanese that I don't have a strong interest in
the success of the Japanese version of AOOo, or that I cannot tap into
Japanese language expertise to help evaluate a proposal.
In other words the stakeholders for AOOo are more than just individual
end-users who download and install the product. The stakeholders also
include downstream consumers, distributors, hardware vendors who
bundle, etc. Some of these interests are represented on the PPMC.
And their interests often transcend a single language.
-Rob
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 12 September 2011 10:27, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>
>> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no
>> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All
>> decisions must be made here.
>>
>
> Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you
> mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual
> property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and
> marketing?
Yes, that is correct.
> So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference
> in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the
> latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted
> the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand
> the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply.
There is no fixed rule here. In practice no other ASF project has a
"dev" list in any language other than English as the accepted
guideline is that only English is allowed. Personally I don't think
this is workable in OOo.
What we need to do is, as you say "understand the scope to the types
of restrictions that are likely to apply". As a starting point I would
say that if a decision on the jp list affects those in other countries
(any other country) then that decision needs to be made on the core
English language list. Therefore the jp list would bring a proposal
here.
Naturally this means the jp list needs to be managed by people willing
and able to communicate the jp intentions in English. I propose that
the PPMC will hold those individuals accountable as well as
recognising them for their work.
If a decision affects only the JP community then there is no need to
make a proposal here, but we should expect to be informed of any
important activities.
Of course the JP community will still have to respect things like the
trademark policy of the foundation. These items should therefore also
be handled on the English list (no objection to discussing in Japanese
first and making recommendations to this list).
[ASIDE] PPMC members should note that umbrella projects are not
allowed in the ASF. I'll not go into detail here at this time, I'll do
that soon in another thread. However, I just want to flag that this is
the first step in creating an umbrella project out of OOo. However, at
this point I think it is best to proceed as proposed in this thread, I
suspect this will be the first of many such requirements.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>.
On 11 September 2011 23:19, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no
> decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All
> decisions must be made here.
>
Hi Ross, just to clarify what you mean by project in general. I assume you
mean things like direction of the code development and intellectual
property, rather than things like language translations, localisation and
marketing? So eg they could make a decision to have a marketing conference
in Japan or to correct say a translation error in a dictionary. In the
latter case it would still require a committer to commit and have accepted
the revision submitted to the main project. I'm just trying to understand
the scope to the types of restrictions that are likely to apply.
That being said, decisions that only affect those in Japan probably only
> need to be reported here.
>
> Ross
> On Sep 8, 2011 9:09 AM, "Kazunari Hirano" <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> >
> > As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as
> > users@ja.openoffice.org, announce@ja.openoffice.org,
> > dev@ja.openoffice.org, discuss@ja.openoffice.org,
> > documentation@ja.openoffice.org, marketing@ja.openoffice.org,
> > qa@ja.openoffice.org, translate@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I
> > would like to invite subscribers
> > on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org.
> >
> > We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read
> > English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list,
> > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many
> > things related to Apache OpenOffice.org.
> > 1) To understand the proposal
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja
> > 2) To understand the status
> > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
> > 3) To read and navigate pages on the site
> > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
> > 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache
> > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> > 5) To learn how to use wikis
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/
> > http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/
> > 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list.
> > 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and
> > after AOOo release.
> > 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo
> >
> > Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with
> > Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo
> > developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org
> > project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better
> > "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read
> > English.
> >
> > We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese"
> > everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature
> > requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product
> > and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org
> > users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand
> > what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project.
> >
> > ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good
> > communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and
> > working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people.
> >
> > I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> > 1. Kazunari Hirano
> > 2. Maho Nakata
> >
> > If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
> > I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > khirano
>
--
Ian
Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.
Re:[PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
With my mentor hat on I have no objection as long as it is clear that no
decisions about the project in general can be made on this list. All
decisions must be made here.
That being said, decisions that only affect those in Japan probably only
need to be reported here.
Ross
On Sep 8, 2011 9:09 AM, "Kazunari Hirano" <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I propose setting up of ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
>
> As Japanese OpenOffice.org mailing lists such as
> users@ja.openoffice.org, announce@ja.openoffice.org,
> dev@ja.openoffice.org, discuss@ja.openoffice.org,
> documentation@ja.openoffice.org, marketing@ja.openoffice.org,
> qa@ja.openoffice.org, translate@ja.openoffice.org, will be closed, I
> would like to invite subscribers
> on those lists to ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org.
>
> We have many subscribers (users and contributors) who don't read
> English on those Japanese lists. We would like to use the list,
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org, to discuss "in Japanese" many
> things related to Apache OpenOffice.org.
> 1) To understand the proposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal/ja
> 2) To understand the status
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
> 3) To read and navigate pages on the site
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
> 4) To learn Apache way, Apache License and more about Apache
> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> 5) To learn how to use wikis
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOODEV/
> http://ooo-wiki.apache.org/wiki/JA/
> 6) To discuss about the forum and the mailing list.
> 7) To discuss about translation, QA, marketing, documentation around and
> after AOOo release.
> 8) To learn SVN, how to get source code, how to build AOOo
>
> Generally we will discuss how to manage things on the list with
> Japanese users and contributors. Then Japanese AOOo users and AOOo
> developers and AOOo contributors can understand Apache OpenOffice.org
> project and discuss how to make AOOo the product and community better
> "in Japanese" involving Japanese users and contributors who don't read
> English.
>
> We would like to use the list where we can discuss "in Japanese"
> everything related AOOo like how to use it, bug reports, feature
> requests and ask subscribers to help develop Japanese AOOo the product
> and the community. Many Japanese people and Japanese OpenOffie.org
> users and Japanese media will read the list in Japanese and understand
> what is AOOo incubator project and what is happening in the project.
>
> ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org will be not only a good
> communication tool but a good marketing tool, a support tool and
> working place for Japanese users and contributors and Japanese people.
>
> I also propose 2 moderators for ooo-dev-ja at incubator.apache.org
> 1. Kazunari Hirano
> 2. Maho Nakata
>
> If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72-hours then
> I will invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.
>
> Thanks,
> khirano