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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org> on 2005/12/05 14:49:24 UTC
Back on your hands! (Was Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;))
Ok. So there's this joke I like...
A guy dies and goes to hell. A daemon ;) meets him at the door, and
tells him that he gets to choose his eternal punishment. They go to
a large room where people are hanging by their hands into a pool of
lava. They all are in agony and pain. They guys says "Pass!". The
go to the second room. Here, people are chained to big rocks, and
wave after wave of cold saltwater lash into them minute after
minute. Clearly they are suffering too.
The man wants to see the third room. In it, people are standing up
to their necks in a big pool of manure, drinking coffee. The man
thinks "hey, that's not so bad, compared to what I saw" so he grabs a
coffee cup, jumps in and has his coffee. (The coffee isn't bad, either.)
Fifteen minutes later, the overseer gets up from his coffee, comes to
the edge of the pool, and says
"Ok everyone. Coffee break is over. Back on your hands!"
So... can we consider this topic done (with the exception of dalibar
getting the last word in response to my last post), at least from the
POV of trying to make progress on it here on the Harmony list, and
move it over to legal-discuss? This is a committer-only list, so not
everyone can participate, but if we promise to bring the results
back, will that work?
If not, shall we start harmony-legal@ list?
geir
On Dec 5, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 01:52:32PM -0600, Archie Cobbs wrote:
>> Conclusion being: if it's the merely legality that concerns ASF,
>> then they should already be happy and this whole problem and
>> discussion can go away (wouldn't that be nice :-)
>
> Yes, that'd be real nice! But mere legality isn't the only thing
> that concerns the ASF. Its probably also perfectly legal to write
> code that only compiles with MS Visual Studio .Net 2008 Vista
> Edition and release it under the Apache License. However, if an
> ASF project were to do that, it'd still be considered a problem.
>
> "So what are all the other concerns?"
>
> There is no exhaustive list. Cliff is working on documenting this
> stuff.
>
> Things like "users can go and use our stuff without worrying about
> 'virality'", "the legal end results are similar to what our users
> expect", and more.
>
> - Leo
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Harmony project roadmap
Posted by Enrico Migliore <en...@fatti.com>.
Hi Geir
> I think we're all creating it here :)
>
> In terms of roadmap, I'd like to see :
>
> 1) Continue to build on the IBM contribution for classlibraries
>
> 2) Ensure our VM efforts work with IBMs contribution
>
> 3) See if we can find a common VM/classlib interface for all
> projects, both here and elsewhere, to use for interop
>
> 4) Start work on our infrastructure such as the build structure, and
> the automated testing structure
>
>
ok
>
> Specifically, are you looking for something to do ?
>
Yes, actually I'm waiting for David Tanzer to upload to the JCHEVM
modified source tree,
in order for me to compile it with the GCC tool chain on Windows.
ciao,
Enrico
Re: Harmony project roadmap
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
I think we're all creating it here :)
In terms of roadmap, I'd like to see :
1) Continue to build on the IBM contribution for classlibraries
2) Ensure our VM efforts work with IBMs contribution
3) See if we can find a common VM/classlib interface for all
projects, both here and elsewhere, to use for interop
4) Start work on our infrastructure such as the build structure, and
the automated testing structure
Specifically, are you looking for something to do ?
Here's a quick list off the top of my head :
1) Tools : How about demonstrating how the IBM contribution can
self-host the eclipse compiler? IOW, do 'javac' for us? We need all
the other tools as well.
2) get JCHEVM and bootVM to work with the IBM contribution
3) Build : we'd like to have a sane build process, being able to kick
off from the top level and yet have each of the sublevels (enhanced/
classlib, enhanced/vm, enhanced/tools) have independent builds and
artifacts.
4) Build : how about working through some of the build issues
discussed related to ant vs make vs ....
5) See what it takes to get Kaffe et al to work with the IBM
contribution so we don't have to use IBMs J9 binary for testing if we
don't want to
let us know when you're done :) We'll have more!
geir
On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:12 AM, Enrico Migliore wrote:
> Hi Geir,
>
> when will the project's roadmap be available?
>
> Enrico
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Harmony project roadmap
Posted by Enrico Migliore <en...@fatti.com>.
Hi Geir,
when will the project's roadmap be available?
Enrico
Re: Back on your hands!
Posted by Phillip Rhodes <mi...@cpphacker.co.uk>.
Tim Ellison wrote:
> I'd prefer harmony-legal@ for the same reason as Leo (I can't read
> legal-discuss either). Better still, legal-discuss-public@
>
+1 for harmony-legal@
It seems inevitable that we are going to wind up having at
least some licensing and legal related issues, but I
personally feel that stuff should be kept out in the
open, not hidden away on a committers only list. But it's
also mostly just noise on this list, so yeah, I think
harmony-legal@ would be a great idea.
TTYL,
Phil
--
North Carolina - First In Freedom
Free America - Vote Libertarian
www.lp.org
Re: Back on your hands!
Posted by Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>.
I'd prefer harmony-legal@ for the same reason as Leo (I can't read
legal-discuss either). Better still, legal-discuss-public@
Hopefully it will put a stop to those pesky code discussion
interruptions ;-)
Regards,
Tim
Leo Simons wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>So... can we consider this topic done (with the exception of dalibar
>>getting the last word in response to my last post), at least from the
>>POV of trying to make progress on it here on the Harmony list, and
>>move it over to legal-discuss? This is a committer-only list, so not
>>everyone can participate, but if we promise to bring the results
>>back, will that work?
>
>
> I'm fine with moving discussion elsewhere. But I'm not on legal-discuss
> precisely because its committer-only.
>
>
>>If not, shall we start harmony-legal@ list?
>
>
> That might make sense.
>
> LSD
>
--
Tim Ellison (t.p.ellison@gmail.com)
IBM Java technology centre, UK.
Re: Back on your hands!
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> So... can we consider this topic done (with the exception of dalibar
> getting the last word in response to my last post), at least from the
> POV of trying to make progress on it here on the Harmony list, and
> move it over to legal-discuss? This is a committer-only list, so not
> everyone can participate, but if we promise to bring the results
> back, will that work?
I'm fine with moving discussion elsewhere. But I'm not on legal-discuss
precisely because its committer-only.
> If not, shall we start harmony-legal@ list?
That might make sense.
LSD
Re: Back on your hands! (Was Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;))
Posted by Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org>.
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Ok. So there's this joke I like...
>
> A guy dies and goes to hell. A daemon ;) meets him at the door, and
> tells him that he gets to choose his eternal punishment. They go to
> a large room where people are hanging by their hands into a pool of
> lava. They all are in agony and pain. They guys says "Pass!". The
> go to the second room. Here, people are chained to big rocks, and
> wave after wave of cold saltwater lash into them minute after
> minute. Clearly they are suffering too.
>
> The man wants to see the third room. In it, people are standing up
> to their necks in a big pool of manure, drinking coffee. The man
> thinks "hey, that's not so bad, compared to what I saw" so he grabs a
> coffee cup, jumps in and has his coffee. (The coffee isn't bad, either.)
>
> Fifteen minutes later, the overseer gets up from his coffee, comes to
> the edge of the pool, and says
>
> "Ok everyone. Coffee break is over. Back on your hands!"
>
>
+1 ;)
> So... can we consider this topic done (with the exception of dalibar
> getting the last word in response to my last post), at least from the
> POV of trying to make progress on it here on the Harmony list, and
> move it over to legal-discuss? This is a committer-only list, so not
> everyone can participate, but if we promise to bring the results
> back, will that work?
Nah, not necessary. I don't think anymore it would get us what we need,
so no need to create confusion amongst ourselves.
>
> If not, shall we start harmony-legal@ list?
>
I doubt it is very necessary either, as the issue is not a legal one. In
essence, people from outside the ASF may ocassionally come with ideas how to
"subvert the system", and those ideas may even look nice, in theory, but they
will not work in the practice, since the core membership is very
conservative, and will need time to find out how it can best profit
from which forms of interaction with other communities. From my
experience so far, pushing the membership via social hacks seems to be
counterproductive. Thanks to those who participated in those social
experiments. I hope I haven't annoyed people too much with that.
At the end of the day, the current situation is not really a problem,
for a variety of reasons.
A "100% ASLv2 only" Apache Harmony project is able to differentiate itself
towards potential, *PL(+*)-wary donors as a nice, potentially more proprietary
vendor friendly alternative, and so far this has been very successful, and
that was one of the things I envisioned for this project, allowing proprietary
runtime vendors to go the safe route via ASF.
As long as there are contributors we can lure out of the reserve, into
contributing their crown jewels, by using a "100% ASLv2 pure" goal, I think
it will be worth it. It would be great if Apache Harmony succeeds in creating a
modular, pluggable runtime, within the next 3-5 years, which may happen with the
participation of some of the proprietary runtime vendors, and their
research teams.
One thing I keep ocassionally forgetting in my attempts to find hacks to merge all
communities together, is that a multi-pronged approach is going to be more
successfull in appealing to different "segments of the market", and
merging things too early would eliminate the advantage of being able to
appeal to initially different audiences.
cheers,
dalibor topic
> geir
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
>
> >On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 01:52:32PM -0600, Archie Cobbs wrote:
> >>Conclusion being: if it's the merely legality that concerns ASF,
> >>then they should already be happy and this whole problem and
> >>discussion can go away (wouldn't that be nice :-)
> >
> >Yes, that'd be real nice! But mere legality isn't the only thing
> >that concerns the ASF. Its probably also perfectly legal to write
> >code that only compiles with MS Visual Studio .Net 2008 Vista
> >Edition and release it under the Apache License. However, if an
> >ASF project were to do that, it'd still be considered a problem.
> >
> >"So what are all the other concerns?"
> >
> >There is no exhaustive list. Cliff is working on documenting this
> >stuff.
> >
> >Things like "users can go and use our stuff without worrying about
> >'virality'", "the legal end results are similar to what our users
> >expect", and more.
> >
> >- Leo
> >
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
>