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Posted to dev@apr.apache.org by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net> on 2002/08/27 05:32:16 UTC
El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Hi all...
Jon Travis here...
Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
Please voice any interest, thanks.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 02:00 PM 9/3/2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>Either one is fine to me. Integrating the code into apr-util is probably
>an easier setup, but will require more work to adapt to the build system
>and change the symbols (and of course I'm quite liking the name
>'el-kabong' ;-)).
That's sort of the concensus. It seems the majority is pro-apr-util but
we will let Greg announce that. He already has the sources, so it shouldn't
be any trouble for him to import them once we have the signed contributors
agreement on file.
Others may still be interested in reviewing the code. To those folks,
don't hesitate to email John requesting the evaluation sources. But those
who've reviewed the code is reasonably happy with it. Once the code
is part of the ASF process, the usual banter can erupt over how best to
improve the code. I for one, am much happier with the current streamed
implementation than a read-in-the-whole-danged-file into a tree approach :-)
AFA el-kabong, we should definitely keep that colorful history note in
the sources :-) But I have a major issue with oddball names when 'html'
or 'html-parser' is more than sufficient [inside of a bigger library.] Things
need to be obvious to new adopters. This is my pet peeve with the Jakarta
project. [Hundreds of names, who can keep track of what they all do :-?]
>I'm not in a rush, I just like to know where things stand. Since this
>discussion is seemingly happening off-list, I can't differentiate between
>no discussion or a heated one. I'd prefer this to be on-list, as I
>think it does affect the users of APR, and it would allow me to monitor
>the progress here.
Sorry. No cloke-n-dagger star chamber here. We've been polling all the
members of the ASF about where are we headed. Does the ASF become
yet another Sourceforge? If not (and the near-unanimous consensus is no,
we don't want to be a Sourceforge, they do that just fine themselves), then
how do we qualify and distinguish our projects? How do we keep active
communities? How do we group the newer client-side elements, when the
httpd project is focused on the server-side?
All of which makes for entertaining discussion, but some of this debate
is probably just off-topic for developers lists. The httpd and apr lists are
busy enough without all of the "Why el-kabong belongs here" rants on
every side of the coin. Rest assured, that's the debate, not whether or
not we accept the code. Most everyone seems pleased that including
this code [somewhere] would be a "Good Thing"(R)(sm) :-)
Bill
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 02:00 PM 9/3/2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>Either one is fine to me. Integrating the code into apr-util is probably
>an easier setup, but will require more work to adapt to the build system
>and change the symbols (and of course I'm quite liking the name
>'el-kabong' ;-)).
That's sort of the concensus. It seems the majority is pro-apr-util but
we will let Greg announce that. He already has the sources, so it shouldn't
be any trouble for him to import them once we have the signed contributors
agreement on file.
Others may still be interested in reviewing the code. To those folks,
don't hesitate to email John requesting the evaluation sources. But those
who've reviewed the code is reasonably happy with it. Once the code
is part of the ASF process, the usual banter can erupt over how best to
improve the code. I for one, am much happier with the current streamed
implementation than a read-in-the-whole-danged-file into a tree approach :-)
AFA el-kabong, we should definitely keep that colorful history note in
the sources :-) But I have a major issue with oddball names when 'html'
or 'html-parser' is more than sufficient [inside of a bigger library.] Things
need to be obvious to new adopters. This is my pet peeve with the Jakarta
project. [Hundreds of names, who can keep track of what they all do :-?]
>I'm not in a rush, I just like to know where things stand. Since this
>discussion is seemingly happening off-list, I can't differentiate between
>no discussion or a heated one. I'd prefer this to be on-list, as I
>think it does affect the users of APR, and it would allow me to monitor
>the progress here.
Sorry. No cloke-n-dagger star chamber here. We've been polling all the
members of the ASF about where are we headed. Does the ASF become
yet another Sourceforge? If not (and the near-unanimous consensus is no,
we don't want to be a Sourceforge, they do that just fine themselves), then
how do we qualify and distinguish our projects? How do we keep active
communities? How do we group the newer client-side elements, when the
httpd project is focused on the server-side?
All of which makes for entertaining discussion, but some of this debate
is probably just off-topic for developers lists. The httpd and apr lists are
busy enough without all of the "Why el-kabong belongs here" rants on
every side of the coin. Rest assured, that's the debate, not whether or
not we accept the code. Most everyone seems pleased that including
this code [somewhere] would be a "Good Thing"(R)(sm) :-)
Bill
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
My comments inline:
On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 02:53:03PM -0400, rbb@apache.org wrote:
>
> There are currently two possible avenues.
>
> 1) The code goes into apr-util.
> 2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
>
> The APR option is faster, but there is some misgivings about whether it
> belongs in apr-util. The vote was done, and it seems to be accepted, but
> Greg was keeping tally, so I don't have the exact numbers about where it
> would go. I _think_, and I could be wrong, that it would be put in
> apr-util/html as a separate piece of apr-util.
>
> The second option will take a bit longer, because the sandbox project will
> need to be created first.
>
> I have tried to answer without letting any of my personal opinions show in
> the message, because that has caused some problems before. The real
> question now, is given those two options, which would you prefer. Not
> saying that your preference is the only factor i the decision, but it
> should be taken into account.
Either one is fine to me. Integrating the code into apr-util is probably
an easier setup, but will require more work to adapt to the build system
and change the symbols (and of course I'm quite liking the name
'el-kabong' ;-)).
> There are also some people questioning why we are moving so quickly on
> this. The general feeling is that we should find the best fit before
> taking the code. If you are in a rush, then that would change things, but
> the understanding was just that you wanted to be kept in the loop about
> what is happening.
>
> Keep pinging, but the conversation is on-going, and very active, so there
> is little chance that it won't happen. It is really just a matter of time
> now.
>
> Ryan
I'm not in a rush, I just like to know where things stand. Since this
discussion is seemingly happening off-list, I can't differentiate between
no discussion or a heated one. I'd prefer this to be on-list, as I
think it does affect the users of APR, and it would allow me to monitor
the progress here.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
My comments inline:
On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 02:53:03PM -0400, rbb@apache.org wrote:
>
> There are currently two possible avenues.
>
> 1) The code goes into apr-util.
> 2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
>
> The APR option is faster, but there is some misgivings about whether it
> belongs in apr-util. The vote was done, and it seems to be accepted, but
> Greg was keeping tally, so I don't have the exact numbers about where it
> would go. I _think_, and I could be wrong, that it would be put in
> apr-util/html as a separate piece of apr-util.
>
> The second option will take a bit longer, because the sandbox project will
> need to be created first.
>
> I have tried to answer without letting any of my personal opinions show in
> the message, because that has caused some problems before. The real
> question now, is given those two options, which would you prefer. Not
> saying that your preference is the only factor i the decision, but it
> should be taken into account.
Either one is fine to me. Integrating the code into apr-util is probably
an easier setup, but will require more work to adapt to the build system
and change the symbols (and of course I'm quite liking the name
'el-kabong' ;-)).
> There are also some people questioning why we are moving so quickly on
> this. The general feeling is that we should find the best fit before
> taking the code. If you are in a rush, then that would change things, but
> the understanding was just that you wanted to be kept in the loop about
> what is happening.
>
> Keep pinging, but the conversation is on-going, and very active, so there
> is little chance that it won't happen. It is really just a matter of time
> now.
>
> Ryan
I'm not in a rush, I just like to know where things stand. Since this
discussion is seemingly happening off-list, I can't differentiate between
no discussion or a heated one. I'd prefer this to be on-list, as I
think it does affect the users of APR, and it would allow me to monitor
the progress here.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"rbb@apache.org" <rb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> There are currently two possible avenues.
>
> 1) The code goes into apr-util.
> 2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
It makes a lot of sense to have it also in XML as well, together with
XERCES-C...
Pier
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"rbb@apache.org" <rb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> There are currently two possible avenues.
>
> 1) The code goes into apr-util.
> 2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
It makes a lot of sense to have it also in XML as well, together with
XERCES-C...
Pier
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by rb...@apache.org.
There are currently two possible avenues.
1) The code goes into apr-util.
2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
The APR option is faster, but there is some misgivings about whether it
belongs in apr-util. The vote was done, and it seems to be accepted, but
Greg was keeping tally, so I don't have the exact numbers about where it
would go. I _think_, and I could be wrong, that it would be put in
apr-util/html as a separate piece of apr-util.
The second option will take a bit longer, because the sandbox project will
need to be created first.
I have tried to answer without letting any of my personal opinions show in
the message, because that has caused some problems before. The real
question now, is given those two options, which would you prefer. Not
saying that your preference is the only factor i the decision, but it
should be taken into account.
There are also some people questioning why we are moving so quickly on
this. The general feeling is that we should find the best fit before
taking the code. If you are in a rush, then that would change things, but
the understanding was just that you wanted to be kept in the loop about
what is happening.
Keep pinging, but the conversation is on-going, and very active, so there
is little chance that it won't happen. It is really just a matter of time
now.
Ryan
On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Any word on this? (take 2)
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Hi all...
> > Jon Travis here...
> >
> > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> >
> > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
>
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by rb...@apache.org.
There are currently two possible avenues.
1) The code goes into apr-util.
2) The code goes into a sandbox project.
The APR option is faster, but there is some misgivings about whether it
belongs in apr-util. The vote was done, and it seems to be accepted, but
Greg was keeping tally, so I don't have the exact numbers about where it
would go. I _think_, and I could be wrong, that it would be put in
apr-util/html as a separate piece of apr-util.
The second option will take a bit longer, because the sandbox project will
need to be created first.
I have tried to answer without letting any of my personal opinions show in
the message, because that has caused some problems before. The real
question now, is given those two options, which would you prefer. Not
saying that your preference is the only factor i the decision, but it
should be taken into account.
There are also some people questioning why we are moving so quickly on
this. The general feeling is that we should find the best fit before
taking the code. If you are in a rush, then that would change things, but
the understanding was just that you wanted to be kept in the loop about
what is happening.
Keep pinging, but the conversation is on-going, and very active, so there
is little chance that it won't happen. It is really just a matter of time
now.
Ryan
On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Any word on this? (take 2)
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Hi all...
> > Jon Travis here...
> >
> > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> >
> > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
>
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Any word on this? (take 2)
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
fyi, I've already emailed Jon about doing a review. I would recommend that
at least one other review it, too.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 10:28:18AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Well, if people are agreeing to this, can we get someone involved
> in the HTTPD project (non-Covalent affiliated) to review and
> approve/decline? Volunteers?
>
> -- Jon
>...
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
Jon Travis wrote:
> Well, if people are agreeing to this, can we get someone involved
> in the HTTPD project (non-Covalent affiliated) to review and
> approve/decline? Volunteers?
> I can't publicly post the source under the ASF license until it has been
> accepted (which is a chicken & egg issue). I can, however, distribute
> to individuals on a restricted basis for evaluation for acceptance.
I don't think that is really the "ASF Way". It would be rather unusual
for Apache to accept code without a public review. The only cases I can
think of are security-related. Why don't you just post the code under a
"Copyright Covalent, all rights reserved", with a promise to relicense
if it is accepted.
Joshua.
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
fyi, I've already emailed Jon about doing a review. I would recommend that
at least one other review it, too.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 10:28:18AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Well, if people are agreeing to this, can we get someone involved
> in the HTTPD project (non-Covalent affiliated) to review and
> approve/decline? Volunteers?
>
> -- Jon
>...
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Well, if people are agreeing to this, can we get someone involved
in the HTTPD project (non-Covalent affiliated) to review and
approve/decline? Volunteers?
-- Jon
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:22:03PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> I didn't mean in the same tree at all! :)
>
> But, as you said, a subproj under HTTPD
>
> Jon Travis wrote:
> >
> > I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
> > not in the same tree.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > > Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > > > the APR-util library however.
> > > >
> > > > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > > > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> > > ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> > > because APR should be protocol ignorant.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ===========================================================================
> > > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > > "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> > > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
> >
>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Well, if people are agreeing to this, can we get someone involved
in the HTTPD project (non-Covalent affiliated) to review and
approve/decline? Volunteers?
-- Jon
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:22:03PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> I didn't mean in the same tree at all! :)
>
> But, as you said, a subproj under HTTPD
>
> Jon Travis wrote:
> >
> > I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
> > not in the same tree.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > > Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > > > the APR-util library however.
> > > >
> > > > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > > > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> > > ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> > > because APR should be protocol ignorant.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ===========================================================================
> > > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > > "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> > > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
> >
>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 04:14:20PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> At 12:43 PM -0700 8/27/02, Greg Stein wrote:
> >
> >> > APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
> >
> >You bet!
>
> Well, it depends on how far you want to take the statement "whatever
> we want it to be" :) *duck*
Good thing you ducked, or you'd be sportin' a black eye, mister!
:-)
>...
> But it isn't, and shouldn't be, a drop-box for every library or suite
> of routines that comes down the path (not that anyone is saying that
> it is or will be).
Agreed. I think that we're all very wary of that, so we've got a nice little
resistance to ending up that way. Two more years from now? *shrug*
> Regarding specifically e-k, as a html parser, it's
> got more a family tie, IMO, to the HTTP server project, than APR.
> I think it fits in better among libapreq than in the APR world,
> mostly because it's focused towards the web server and web server
> functionality.
Eh? I see this as mostly a client library. I'm thinking screen scraping, or
the core of an HTML renderer, or something similar. Yes, it *also* has some
neat server capabilities (filter-based processing).
Because it falls into *both* camps, I don't see it associated with the "HTTP
Server Project".
> Would it destroy APR to fold e-k into it... I don't think so. Is there
> a better place under the ASF than in APR? Maybe :)
I obviously don't see it falling into httpd :-). Elsewhere? Not with our
current structure. If we created a "web" project, then it could go there. Of
course, just about *everything* the ASF does is somehow related to the web,
so I'd be wary of ever giving a +1 to creating a "web" project :-)
Now, if there was a "document" project, or DOM project, or something like
that. We could put the XML parsers, this HTML parser, and prolly some other
xml/jakarta tools in there.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 04:14:20PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> At 12:43 PM -0700 8/27/02, Greg Stein wrote:
> >
> >> > APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
> >
> >You bet!
>
> Well, it depends on how far you want to take the statement "whatever
> we want it to be" :) *duck*
Good thing you ducked, or you'd be sportin' a black eye, mister!
:-)
>...
> But it isn't, and shouldn't be, a drop-box for every library or suite
> of routines that comes down the path (not that anyone is saying that
> it is or will be).
Agreed. I think that we're all very wary of that, so we've got a nice little
resistance to ending up that way. Two more years from now? *shrug*
> Regarding specifically e-k, as a html parser, it's
> got more a family tie, IMO, to the HTTP server project, than APR.
> I think it fits in better among libapreq than in the APR world,
> mostly because it's focused towards the web server and web server
> functionality.
Eh? I see this as mostly a client library. I'm thinking screen scraping, or
the core of an HTML renderer, or something similar. Yes, it *also* has some
neat server capabilities (filter-based processing).
Because it falls into *both* camps, I don't see it associated with the "HTTP
Server Project".
> Would it destroy APR to fold e-k into it... I don't think so. Is there
> a better place under the ASF than in APR? Maybe :)
I obviously don't see it falling into httpd :-). Elsewhere? Not with our
current structure. If we created a "web" project, then it could go there. Of
course, just about *everything* the ASF does is somehow related to the web,
so I'd be wary of ever giving a +1 to creating a "web" project :-)
Now, if there was a "document" project, or DOM project, or something like
that. We could put the XML parsers, this HTML parser, and prolly some other
xml/jakarta tools in there.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by jo...@sterls.com.
Hi -
>-- Original Message --
>Reply-To: dev@httpd.apache.org
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:14:20 -0400
>To: dev@apr.apache.org
>From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>
>Subject: Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
>Cc: dev@httpd.apache.org
>
>Would it destroy APR to fold e-k into it... I don't think so. Is there
>a better place under the ASF than in APR? Maybe :)
I say make it a peer of the apr xml utilities.
sterling
Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
At 12:43 PM -0700 8/27/02, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> > APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
>
>You bet!
Well, it depends on how far you want to take the statement "whatever
we want it to be" :) *duck*
> > > top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
>> > the ASF, then I believe it makes sense to keep them as subprojects
>> > of APR. Either we extend the meaning of APR to mean "any portable
>> > libraries" or we take away the "server" in "HTTP Server Project".
>
>Per the Board, we are *already* about portable libraries.
>
APR has evolved... Not only is the project about a portable runtime
library, but also generic portable libraries as well. I also find this
a Good Thing. Growth is good.
But it isn't, and shouldn't be, a drop-box for every library or suite
of routines that comes down the path (not that anyone is saying that
it is or will be). Regarding specifically e-k, as a html parser, it's
got more a family tie, IMO, to the HTTP server project, than APR.
I think it fits in better among libapreq than in the APR world,
mostly because it's focused towards the web server and web server
functionality.
Would it destroy APR to fold e-k into it... I don't think so. Is there
a better place under the ASF than in APR? Maybe :)
--
===========================================================================
Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
At 12:43 PM -0700 8/27/02, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> > APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
>
>You bet!
Well, it depends on how far you want to take the statement "whatever
we want it to be" :) *duck*
> > > top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
>> > the ASF, then I believe it makes sense to keep them as subprojects
>> > of APR. Either we extend the meaning of APR to mean "any portable
>> > libraries" or we take away the "server" in "HTTP Server Project".
>
>Per the Board, we are *already* about portable libraries.
>
APR has evolved... Not only is the project about a portable runtime
library, but also generic portable libraries as well. I also find this
a Good Thing. Growth is good.
But it isn't, and shouldn't be, a drop-box for every library or suite
of routines that comes down the path (not that anyone is saying that
it is or will be). Regarding specifically e-k, as a html parser, it's
got more a family tie, IMO, to the HTTP server project, than APR.
I think it fits in better among libapreq than in the APR world,
mostly because it's focused towards the web server and web server
functionality.
Would it destroy APR to fold e-k into it... I don't think so. Is there
a better place under the ASF than in APR? Maybe :)
--
===========================================================================
Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
more on the charter (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:56:39PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
> > Flood is there to test the server. Serf is a (nonexistant) client
> > library, initially slated for HTTP but not necessarily protocol
> > specific. They are both in the correct places.
>
> Couple of things. APR-serf is only ever going to support HTTP. That was
> in fact a requirement when the project was accepted. We specifically
> stated that there were other projects with acceptable licesnses that do
> multiple protocols, we were only interested in HTTP.
Yup. At least to get it started. Over the long haul? Unknown. I'd be -0.5 on
it, but I'm just one vote :-)
> > > To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
> > > producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
> > > the way it has. -- justin
Per my other email... it has not been distorted.
> > APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
You bet!
> > top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
> > the ASF, then I believe it makes sense to keep them as subprojects
> > of APR. Either we extend the meaning of APR to mean "any portable
> > libraries" or we take away the "server" in "HTTP Server Project".
Per the Board, we are *already* about portable libraries.
> APR is NOT what we make it. The APR project has a VERY well defined
> mission and goal. Take a look at the web site:
>
> " The mission of the Apache Portable Runtime (APR) is to provide a free
> library of C data structures and routines, forming a system portability
> layer to as many operating systems as possible, including Unices, MS
> Win32, BeOS and OS/2. "
>
> This wasn't arbitrary, the mission was decided upon at the start of the
> project, and it was approved by the board. Changing that mission requires
> acceptance by the entire PMC, and the board must approve it.
Not at all. You're mischaracterizing it entirely. That mission is a
self-selected mission. In fact, it isn't even accurate since we have
incorporated other items into what we are doing. Thus, our consensual
mission, as defined by our actions, no longer aligns with our stated
mission. That is a documentation problem.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with the charter from the Board, nor we
do need Board approval for adding things like E-K.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:02:51PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> > Actually; no - the Board gave the APR crowd a well defined charter (or
> > rather, the APR folks came with a very well defined set of things they
> > wanted to work on - and hence got their PMC in the ASF umbrella).
> >
> > Changing that charter will require this community to do some very deep
> > thinking :-) and possibly you'll have to put things in perspective or
> > reconsider to prevent bloat, feature creep, version # aligement problems
> > with your dependencies and general quality.
> >
> > Right now your charter keeps you out of such troubled waters:
> >
> > The mission of the Apache Portable Runtime (APR) is to provide a
> > free library of C data structures and routines, forming a system
> > portability layer to as many operating systems as possible,
> > including Unices, MSWin32, BeOS and OS/2.
> >
> > rather nicely.
>
> Hmm.. how do we justify apr-util, and even moreso, how did serf get
> approved (especially if it is HTTP-centric)?
apr-util was created to move non-portability code out of APR, but since
the logic was all portable, and the features were considered useful, and
they are found in other portability run-times, we decided that they could
live in the APR project. As for apr-serf, it was controversial when it
was created, and it is in the wrong project. I said as much when it was
created, and the fact that nobody commits code to it just proves the
point.
> To me it seems that el-kabong is a natural sibling of apr-util -- both
> are a set of portable utilities which are dependent on our portability
> layer, and applicable to a wide variety of projects.
look in other portable run-times, and you will find logic for tables,
hashes, queues, etc. I challenge you to find one that has HTML parsing
logic.
> I won't stop it from being part of HTTPD, but I do want to start
> thinking about our projects in terms of functionality rather than
> language or protocol.
But the "functionality" for APR is a portable run-time, not every library
that we can think to write.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:02:51PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> Actually; no - the Board gave the APR crowd a well defined charter (or
> rather, the APR folks came with a very well defined set of things they
> wanted to work on - and hence got their PMC in the ASF umbrella).
>
> Changing that charter will require this community to do some very deep
> thinking :-) and possibly you'll have to put things in perspective or
> reconsider to prevent bloat, feature creep, version # aligement problems
> with your dependencies and general quality.
>
> Right now your charter keeps you out of such troubled waters:
>
> The mission of the Apache Portable Runtime (APR) is to provide a
> free library of C data structures and routines, forming a system
> portability layer to as many operating systems as possible,
> including Unices, MSWin32, BeOS and OS/2.
>
> rather nicely.
Hmm.. how do we justify apr-util, and even moreso, how did serf get
approved (especially if it is HTTP-centric)?
To me it seems that el-kabong is a natural sibling of apr-util -- both
are a set of portable utilities which are dependent on our portability
layer, and applicable to a wide variety of projects.
I won't stop it from being part of HTTPD, but I do want to start
thinking about our projects in terms of functionality rather than
language or protocol.
-aaron
Re: APR "charter" (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>.
If there is disagreement among developers about what the APR
project(s) should do, then it has to be worked out like any other
disagreement. But using the charter as a *justification* for one's
position about APR's scope is circular, or at least semi-circular :-).
It's only appropriate to treat charters as restrictive when resources
are finite. For example, non-profit organizations have to respect
their charters in a specific legal way, because people who donated
money might be upset to see it used for something other than what they
donated it for.
But APR is a different kind of situation. Everyone who has put time
into APR has reaped the results of their work already -- all those
past revisions, releases, and branches are available to anyone who now
wants to steer the project (or a copy of the project) according to
their own vision. Likewise, no one can claim to have lost anything if
a majority of developers choose to develop *this* copy of APR along
lines unforseen a year ago.
Thus, Ryan, I don't see any justification for viewing the charter as
anything but a description, perhaps now out-of-date, of what APR
intends to be. We must decide *today* where APR is going, based on
our experiences so far, and where there is disagreement, it has to be
resolved through discussion, as with any other disagreement. Invoking
the charter as an authority is simply missing the point.
-Karl
Re: APR "charter" (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 03:32:01PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > > We are a portability project, which is
> > > > > all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
> >
> > That's what *you* wanted Ryan. Tough luck, but there are more of us. And we
> > have wanted it to be more, and it *is* more.
>
> That's right, I opened the project up to other people, which doesn't mean
> that I no longer get a say.
Don't mischaracterize me. I never said you couldn't have a say :-(
> I am saying that I believe we have violated
> our charter, and I wish to correct that problem.
>
> We created a mission statement as a PMC a long time ago (it was removed
> from the STATUS file some time ago, but here are the three options that
> were originally in the STATUS file:
>...
> The Apache Portable Run-time mission is to provide a free library
> of C data structures and routines, forming a system portability
> layer to as many operating systems as possible, including Unices,
> MS Win32, BeOS and OS/2.
> Votes: +1: OtherBill, Karl, Fred, Greg
>
>
> Notice the final one is word for word what is on the web site. As a TEAM
> we agreed to that as our mission statement. You can't just change the
> mission statement because you want to. If you want to change that
> statement, then bring it to the PMC, and let us discuss it.
Our mission is defined by our actions. That statement is a static phrase,
created at a point in time two years ago. It has not kept up with where we
want to go with the APR project. So hell ya, it needs to be updated.
But I do *not* see it as a limitation on what we choose to do. It is a
*description*, not a *restriction*. We chose it as a way to describe what we
were doing two years ago (writing APR; APRUTIL wasn't envisioned). But that
is it: a description.
> As things stand right now, however, apr-serf and apr-html are in violation
> of the mission statement, as decided by the PMC. Therefore, I am
> suggesting that all discussion of these projects be tabled until we either
> uphold our current mission, or create a new one.
I would rephrase that as "update the mission statement." Our mission is
defined by our actions. There is no need to table anything.
>...
> > Of course we can. Our charter allows us to define our scope. I see that as
> > focusing on "portable" libraries.
>
> Which, from the votes above, I would consider to be a change from
> your previous position. Which is fine, but you don't get to decide on the
> mission statement for the whole project.
Sure. That was a vote on how to describe the APR project at *that point in
time*. It is unrelated to describing our mission today. But it is merely a
description.
And if two years ago, you had asked, "should we be about portable libraries,
or just libraries that engender portability?" I probably would have said the
former. But I dunno. It would be interesting to scour the email lists, as I
seem to recall that came up. But hey... if I was only for engendering
portability, then yes: I've changed my mind. So sue me :-)
Seriously... it is for *visitors* to read. Not us. That phrase is used to
help people figure out what the APR Project is all about.
As a group, we define what to do. What code to write. What code to accept.
Since that occurs as a group, then that also means we are implicitly
altering our charter.mission/ Each decision moves us in a slightly different
direction. If at each point, we had refused to create apr-util or apr-serf,
then I'd agree that we're only about engendering portability. But that isn't
the case. We decided to expand the scope into portable [using] libraries.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: APR "charter" (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
> > > > We are a portability project, which is
> > > > all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
>
> That's what *you* wanted Ryan. Tough luck, but there are more of us. And we
> have wanted it to be more, and it *is* more.
That's right, I opened the project up to other people, which doesn't mean
that I no longer get a say. I am saying that I believe we have violated
our charter, and I wish to correct that problem.
We created a mission statement as a PMC a long time ago (it was removed
from the STATUS file some time ago, but here are the three options that
were originally in the STATUS file:
The Apache Portable Run-time mission is to provide a library of routines
that allows programmers to write a program once and be able to compile
it anywhere.
Votes: +0: Jeff, Ryan
-0: Greg, Sascha, Fred
The Apache Portable Run-time mission is to provide a free library
of C data structures and routines, forming a system portability
layer to most Unices and the major commercial operating systems.
Votes: +1: Karl, Sascha, Ryan, Jeff,
+0: OtherBill, Fred
The Apache Portable Run-time mission is to provide a free library
of C data structures and routines, forming a system portability
layer to as many operating systems as possible, including Unices,
MS Win32, BeOS and OS/2.
Votes: +1: OtherBill, Karl, Fred, Greg
Notice the final one is word for word what is on the web site. As a TEAM
we agreed to that as our mission statement. You can't just change the
mission statement because you want to. If you want to change that
statement, then bring it to the PMC, and let us discuss it.
As things stand right now, however, apr-serf and apr-html are in violation
of the mission statement, as decided by the PMC. Therefore, I am
suggesting that all discussion of these projects be tabled until we either
uphold our current mission, or create a new one.
> > > Incredibly Useful. However, it seems that the pieces are only useful for
> > > very specific applications. El-Kabong is useful (although not immediately
> > > necessary) in the same sense as apr-util. I'm just saying we can't have
> > > it both ways.
>
> Of course we can. Our charter allows us to define our scope. I see that as
> focusing on "portable" libraries.
Which, from the votes above, I would consider to be a change from
your previous position. Which is fine, but you don't get to decide on the
mission statement for the whole project.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
APR "charter" (was: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 02:38:35PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 02:15:43PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > Just to clarify, by "we" I meant the voting majority of the APR PMC
> > > > (aparently only with the approval of the board), not the whims of
> > > > the casual contributor. If this is indeed a paradigm shift, then I'm
> > > > suggesting that we reexamine the charter.
Only the voting majority. The Board gave us a wide charter. Thus, the apr,
apr-util, apr-iconv, and apr-serf projects *define* who we are, and what we
want to do. Each of these are under the rubric of "portable" libraries.
Either they engender portability (apr, apr-iconv), or they are inherently
portable (apr-util, apr-serf).
Thus, there is no paradigm shift or break at all. We have been defining who
we are over the past couple years.
What *is* broken is the text on the web page. It does not adequately express
what APR is all about.
> > > I'll tell you right now that I will strenuosly object to making APR the
> > > kitchen sink of Apache libraries.
I don't believe that we're being the kitchen sink. Again, we're only
consider libraries that are portable [causing or using]. We're also trying
to use, create, and maintain useful libraries.
[ part of the question that Dirk has been raising is the "useful" part; I
maintain that the question cannot be answered without the code being
available ]
> > > We are a portability project, which is
> > > all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
That's what *you* wanted Ryan. Tough luck, but there are more of us. And we
have wanted it to be more, and it *is* more.
> > > you want a library project, then create a new PMC please. I don't believe
> > > that you can create such a charter that is well defined enough to be
> > > useful.
The charter from the Board has been quite adequate, and we have defined
ourselves within that scope.
>...
> > I'm also saying that apr-util seems to have broken the charter, in a very
Which charter? You've fallen in the FUD that the APR project is only about
APR. It is about more than that, as I recently posted to the PMC list.
Specifically, the Board chartered us to do the following:
WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests
of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to
establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation
and maintenance of open-source software related to the Apache
Portable Runtime (APR) products, for distribution at no charge
to the public.
(from the December, 2000 meeting minutes)
> > subtle way. On the one hand, the types of things we have in there are
> > Incredibly Useful. However, it seems that the pieces are only useful for
> > very specific applications. El-Kabong is useful (although not immediately
> > necessary) in the same sense as apr-util. I'm just saying we can't have
> > it both ways.
Of course we can. Our charter allows us to define our scope. I see that as
focusing on "portable" libraries.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 02:15:43PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > Just to clarify, by "we" I meant the voting majority of the APR PMC
> > > (aparently only with the approval of the board), not the whims of
> > > the casual contributor. If this is indeed a paradigm shift, then I'm
> > > suggesting that we reexamine the charter.
> >
> > I'll tell you right now that I will strenuosly object to making APR the
> > kitchen sink of Apache libraries. We are a portability project, which is
> > all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
> > you want a library project, then create a new PMC please. I don't believe
> > that you can create such a charter that is well defined enough to be
> > useful.
>
> Woah woah...
>
> We should not add any new functionality into APR that does not have
> an immediate use. I think we all agree on that. Serf may have slipped
> through the cracks, but El-kabong is not immune to that scrutiny.
>
> I'm also saying that apr-util seems to have broken the charter, in a very
> subtle way. On the one hand, the types of things we have in there are
> Incredibly Useful. However, it seems that the pieces are only useful for
> very specific applications. El-Kabong is useful (although not immediately
> necessary) in the same sense as apr-util. I'm just saying we can't have
> it both ways.
The argument for apr-util is that we are providing the same benefits as
other portability libraries. That argument can't be made for either
apr-serf or el-kabong. Therefore those two libraries should not be under
the APR project. If you can find an actual portability run-time that
includes the functionality in apr-serf or el-kabong, then cool we can
disucss adding those to the APR project. But, I don't believe you will be
able to find one.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 02:15:43PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > Just to clarify, by "we" I meant the voting majority of the APR PMC
> > (aparently only with the approval of the board), not the whims of
> > the casual contributor. If this is indeed a paradigm shift, then I'm
> > suggesting that we reexamine the charter.
>
> I'll tell you right now that I will strenuosly object to making APR the
> kitchen sink of Apache libraries. We are a portability project, which is
> all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
> you want a library project, then create a new PMC please. I don't believe
> that you can create such a charter that is well defined enough to be
> useful.
Woah woah...
We should not add any new functionality into APR that does not have
an immediate use. I think we all agree on that. Serf may have slipped
through the cracks, but El-kabong is not immune to that scrutiny.
I'm also saying that apr-util seems to have broken the charter, in a very
subtle way. On the one hand, the types of things we have in there are
Incredibly Useful. However, it seems that the pieces are only useful for
very specific applications. El-Kabong is useful (although not immediately
necessary) in the same sense as apr-util. I'm just saying we can't have
it both ways.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:56:39PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > APR is whatever we want it to be...
> >
> > APR is NOT what we make it. The APR project has a VERY well defined
> > mission and goal. Take a look at the web site:
>
> Just to clarify, by "we" I meant the voting majority of the APR PMC
> (aparently only with the approval of the board), not the whims of
> the casual contributor. If this is indeed a paradigm shift, then I'm
> suggesting that we reexamine the charter.
I'll tell you right now that I will strenuosly object to making APR the
kitchen sink of Apache libraries. We are a portability project, which is
all the library was when I wrote it, and all I wish the project to be. If
you want a library project, then create a new PMC please. I don't believe
that you can create such a charter that is well defined enough to be
useful.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:56:39PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > APR is whatever we want it to be...
>
> APR is NOT what we make it. The APR project has a VERY well defined
> mission and goal. Take a look at the web site:
Just to clarify, by "we" I meant the voting majority of the APR PMC
(aparently only with the approval of the board), not the whims of
the casual contributor. If this is indeed a paradigm shift, then I'm
suggesting that we reexamine the charter.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> Flood is there to test the server. Serf is a (nonexistant) client
> library, initially slated for HTTP but not necessarily protocol
> specific. They are both in the correct places.
Couple of things. APR-serf is only ever going to support HTTP. That was
in fact a requirement when the project was accepted. We specifically
stated that there were other projects with acceptable licesnses that do
multiple protocols, we were only interested in HTTP.
> > To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
> > producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
> > the way it has. -- justin
>
> APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
> top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
> the ASF, then I believe it makes sense to keep them as subprojects
> of APR. Either we extend the meaning of APR to mean "any portable
> libraries" or we take away the "server" in "HTTP Server Project".
APR is NOT what we make it. The APR project has a VERY well defined
mission and goal. Take a look at the web site:
" The mission of the Apache Portable Runtime (APR) is to provide a free
library of C data structures and routines, forming a system portability
layer to as many operating systems as possible, including Unices, MS
Win32, BeOS and OS/2. "
This wasn't arbitrary, the mission was decided upon at the start of the
project, and it was approved by the board. Changing that mission requires
acceptance by the entire PMC, and the board must approve it.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
> APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
> top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
Actually; no - the Board gave the APR crowd a well defined charter (or
rather, the APR folks came with a very well defined set of things they
wanted to work on - and hence got their PMC in the ASF umbrella).
Changing that charter will require this community to do some very deep
thinking :-) and possibly you'll have to put things in perspective or
reconsider to prevent bloat, feature creep, version # aligement problems
with your dependencies and general quality.
Right now your charter keeps you out of such troubled waters:
The mission of the Apache Portable Runtime (APR) is to provide a
free library of C data structures and routines, forming a system
portability layer to as many operating systems as possible,
including Unices, MSWin32, BeOS and OS/2.
rather nicely.
Dw
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 10:15:38AM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> Umm, I think Jon just meant that it belongs as a subproject of
> httpd. I agree with that - it doesn't belong in APR. And, yes,
> I believe that httpd-2.0 can use el-kabong (much in the manner
> that Daniel described).
Sure, httpd can use el-kabong, but does it need it _today_? Flood
could use it today. Other than flood, are there any other projects
that could use it _today_?
> Yes, I extend the focus of httpd to include clients as well.
> flood's there. So should serf and (possibly) el-kabong.
Flood is there to test the server. Serf is a (nonexistant) client
library, initially slated for HTTP but not necessarily protocol
specific. They are both in the correct places.
> To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
> producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
> the way it has. -- justin
APR is whatever we want it to be. If we start building things on
top of APR that are functionally distinct from other projects under
the ASF, then I believe it makes sense to keep them as subprojects
of APR. Either we extend the meaning of APR to mean "any portable
libraries" or we take away the "server" in "HTTP Server Project".
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 10:15:38AM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >...
> > To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
> > producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
> > the way it has. -- justin
>
> It didn't get "distorted" as it never has the limitation that you ascribe to
> it.
It did so. Please go back and review the original discussions about the
scope of the project. The text on the web site was the mission statement
that the PMC decided upon. If we want to change that fine, but let's have
that discussion please. Right now, people are changing the mission
without ever discussing it on-list.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 10:15:38AM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>...
> To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
> producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
> the way it has. -- justin
It didn't get "distorted" as it never has the limitation that you ascribe to
it.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:58:25AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> I don't understand. Is there something in httpd that would need el-kabong?
> Flood could definately use it, but I really don't want to make flood
> dependent on both httpd and APR, especially when flood is a _client_
> and the httpd _server_ project is a server. HTML is more general than
> server-side HTTP, IMHO.
Umm, I think Jon just meant that it belongs as a subproject of
httpd. I agree with that - it doesn't belong in APR. And, yes,
I believe that httpd-2.0 can use el-kabong (much in the manner
that Daniel described).
Yes, I extend the focus of httpd to include clients as well.
flood's there. So should serf and (possibly) el-kabong.
To me, APR is only about raw system-level portability - not about
producing portable libraries. I'm confused how that got distorted
the way it has. -- justin
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
Also - as long as the license is ASF like and/or the authros can be traced
- a project can live on the sourceforge, and, when for example a major
filter or somethign like mod_session or mod_jk/mod_webapp suddenly need
it- be merged in with code which needds such parsing.
Dw.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Perhaps it doesn't belong anywhere in the ASF and should just be
> Open Sourced through other means. The problem is that the subproject
> is "HTTP Server", and there are lots of nice things that don't really
> fit with that project, but in a more general 'web' project, which
> would include clients/servers/libs.
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:58:25AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > I don't understand. Is there something in httpd that would need el-kabong?
> > Flood could definately use it, but I really don't want to make flood
> > dependent on both httpd and APR, especially when flood is a _client_
> > and the httpd _server_ project is a server. HTML is more general than
> > server-side HTTP, IMHO.
> >
> > -aaron
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:54:48AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
> > > not in the same tree.
> > >
> > > -- Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > > > Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > > > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > > > > the APR-util library however.
> > > > >
> > > > > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > > > > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> > > > ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> > > > because APR should be protocol ignorant.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ===========================================================================
> > > > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > > > "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> > > > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Perhaps it doesn't belong anywhere in the ASF and should just be
Open Sourced through other means. The problem is that the subproject
is "HTTP Server", and there are lots of nice things that don't really
fit with that project, but in a more general 'web' project, which
would include clients/servers/libs.
-- Jon
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:58:25AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> I don't understand. Is there something in httpd that would need el-kabong?
> Flood could definately use it, but I really don't want to make flood
> dependent on both httpd and APR, especially when flood is a _client_
> and the httpd _server_ project is a server. HTML is more general than
> server-side HTTP, IMHO.
>
> -aaron
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:54:48AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
> > not in the same tree.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > > Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > > > the APR-util library however.
> > > >
> > > > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > > > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> > > ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> > > because APR should be protocol ignorant.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ===========================================================================
> > > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > > "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> > > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
I don't understand. Is there something in httpd that would need el-kabong?
Flood could definately use it, but I really don't want to make flood
dependent on both httpd and APR, especially when flood is a _client_
and the httpd _server_ project is a server. HTML is more general than
server-side HTTP, IMHO.
-aaron
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:54:48AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
> not in the same tree.
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > > the APR-util library however.
> > >
> > > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> > >
> >
> > Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> > ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> > because APR should be protocol ignorant.
> >
> > --
> > ===========================================================================
> > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
I personally think it belongs as some kind of sub-project to httpd, but
not in the same tree.
-- Jon
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:43:17PM -0400, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> > > project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> > > the APR-util library however.
> >
> > The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
> > I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
> >
>
> Personally, I think it's very cool that E-K is being folded into the
> ASF. I think the httpd project is a better fit however, simply
> because APR should be protocol ignorant.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
> will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 11:02:47AM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
> project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
> the APR-util library however.
The functionality provided by el-kabong seems like a good fit within APR.
I think it would be fine if el-kabong became a new subproject of APR.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
I would prefer that this became it's own project either under the httpd
project or the APR project. I don't believe that it should be a part of
the APR-util library however.
Ryan
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:49:38PM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Hi all...
> > > Jon Travis here...
> > >
> > > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> > >
> > > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> >
> > Interested, but would like to see the code first. =) -- justin
>
> Yeah, thought about that, however the problem is that if the ASF
> doesn't accept it, then it is unlikely that it will be under an ASF
> style license. So it's kinda a chicken & egg problemo.. :-(
>
> -- Jon
>
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:49:38PM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Hi all...
> > Jon Travis here...
> >
> > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> >
> > Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> Interested, but would like to see the code first. =) -- justin
Yeah, thought about that, however the problem is that if the ASF
doesn't accept it, then it is unlikely that it will be under an ASF
style license. So it's kinda a chicken & egg problemo.. :-(
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
Interested, but would like to see the code first. =) -- justin
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Any word on this? (take 2)
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
It's possible that if it goes elsewhere that it would be under a
different license. That's of course contingent on the decision
from the ASF.
-- Jon
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:50:18PM -0700, Scott Hess wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand what your goal is, here. The discussion seems
> to be +1 for including your parser somewhere in some Apache project in the
> future, there's just no clear concensus on where. Is there any reason you
> can't just release your project under the ASF license and be done with it?
>
> Later,
> scott
>
> On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> > integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> > me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> > can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> > weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> > time & energy.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> > to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> > decided I'll look into other options.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:36:21AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
> > >
> > > -- Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > > Hi all...
> > > > Jon Travis here...
> > > >
> > > > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > > > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > > > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > > > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > > > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > > > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > > > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> > > >
> > > > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> > > >
> > > > -- Jon
> > > >
> >
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
It's possible that if it goes elsewhere that it would be under a
different license. That's of course contingent on the decision
from the ASF.
-- Jon
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:50:18PM -0700, Scott Hess wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand what your goal is, here. The discussion seems
> to be +1 for including your parser somewhere in some Apache project in the
> future, there's just no clear concensus on where. Is there any reason you
> can't just release your project under the ASF license and be done with it?
>
> Later,
> scott
>
> On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> > integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> > me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> > can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> > weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> > time & energy.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> > to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> > decided I'll look into other options.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:36:21AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
> > >
> > > -- Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > > Hi all...
> > > > Jon Travis here...
> > > >
> > > > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > > > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > > > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > > > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > > > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > > > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > > > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> > > >
> > > > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> > > >
> > > > -- Jon
> > > >
> >
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>.
> > Which closed doors are those? There has been discussion on the dev list
> > and on the board list. Both of which are public lists that you can
> > subscribe to.
>
> All I know of is the PMC list (which is private), but discussion on
> board@ (which is also private) is news to me.
Well, I had assumed you were already an ASF member. I guess I was wrong.
Yes, the board list is private in the sense that non-ASF members can not
subscribe. Any ASF member can though.
-Rasmus
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 01:57:06AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
> > The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
> > everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
> > out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
>
> Which closed doors are those? There has been discussion on the dev list
> and on the board list. Both of which are public lists that you can
> subscribe to.
All I know of is the PMC list (which is private), but discussion on
board@ (which is also private) is news to me.
http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-board
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by daniel <da...@rawbyte.com>.
> Before we veer off on yet another tangent, can we address the core
> issue? Should the ASF accept the code donation? I believe Greg has
> done a review of said code.
>
> Accept:
+1, and move somewhere into apr
Daniel
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 09:47:01AM -0700, Scott Hess wrote:
> [I am not an Apache contributor, merely a lurker, but...]
>
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are
> > beneficial to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor
> > the progress of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this
> > deadline email has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad
> > precedent for other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to
> > contribute to the ASF.
> >
> > Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
> > to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to
> > management, they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds
> > of politics and inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being
> > excited about contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more
> > trouble than it's worth.
>
> As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
> compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
> website, somewhere.
We decided to give the ASF the first shot at it if they wanted the project.
It seemed to fit in well with things they did, and we have roots in the ASF.
> >From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
> it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
Untrue. If you look at my very first email on this issue (the initial
proposal), I site that I will be the initial maintainer. I certainly
have the most experience with the code, and certainly some amount of
passion for it, regardless of the simplicity.
> 1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
> 2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
> 3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
> 4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
> abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
> 5) Integration work is hard work.
>
> If you really want the ASF to pull this project into the Apache core, your
> best bet is to volunteer to integrate it and write some example code.
> After all, you're the one with the code, you're the one who wants to
> contribute it to the community.
This is the point they are debating. There is no consensus that it will
be integrated. It either would be, or it would be a seperate project,
and that has not yet been decided. They have already agreed that the code
is good (I've already sent it to people to review ). I'm more than happy
to integrate it wherever they see it fit. As I've said in other emails (to
this list and privately to members) I would definitely be involved.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 09:47:01AM -0700, Scott Hess wrote:
> [I am not an Apache contributor, merely a lurker, but...]
>
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are
> > beneficial to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor
> > the progress of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this
> > deadline email has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad
> > precedent for other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to
> > contribute to the ASF.
> >
> > Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
> > to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to
> > management, they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds
> > of politics and inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being
> > excited about contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more
> > trouble than it's worth.
>
> As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
> compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
> website, somewhere.
We decided to give the ASF the first shot at it if they wanted the project.
It seemed to fit in well with things they did, and we have roots in the ASF.
> >From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
> it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
Untrue. If you look at my very first email on this issue (the initial
proposal), I site that I will be the initial maintainer. I certainly
have the most experience with the code, and certainly some amount of
passion for it, regardless of the simplicity.
> 1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
> 2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
> 3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
> 4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
> abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
> 5) Integration work is hard work.
>
> If you really want the ASF to pull this project into the Apache core, your
> best bet is to volunteer to integrate it and write some example code.
> After all, you're the one with the code, you're the one who wants to
> contribute it to the community.
This is the point they are debating. There is no consensus that it will
be integrated. It either would be, or it would be a seperate project,
and that has not yet been decided. They have already agreed that the code
is good (I've already sent it to people to review ). I'm more than happy
to integrate it wherever they see it fit. As I've said in other emails (to
this list and privately to members) I would definitely be involved.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jon Travis wrote:
>
> The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
> everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
> out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
I suspect that's rubbish, Jon, since this is the first I've heard
of this issue. It's certainly the first thing I recall seeing on
the httpd PMC list.
I'm 'way behind on my dev@httpd mail (about 1k messages), so I assume
that's where the rest/origin of this discussion is.
I suggest everyone take a step back and a deep breath, and start
again.
> That's quite the attack (and one which fits in well with your
> "concepts of community and respect"?) .
Pots and kettles.. I have in mind an ApacheCon submission entitled
'Why Apache Sucks', which wasn't terribly respectful. :-)
Again, let's step back and cool off, and try reasoning rather
than emoting. There's a lot of frustration here, apparently,
and I suspect some miscommunication and/or assumptions of
what others know.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jon Travis wrote:
>
> The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
> everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
> out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
I suspect that's rubbish, Jon, since this is the first I've heard
of this issue. It's certainly the first thing I recall seeing on
the httpd PMC list.
I'm 'way behind on my dev@httpd mail (about 1k messages), so I assume
that's where the rest/origin of this discussion is.
I suggest everyone take a step back and a deep breath, and start
again.
> That's quite the attack (and one which fits in well with your
> "concepts of community and respect"?) .
Pots and kettles.. I have in mind an ApacheCon submission entitled
'Why Apache Sucks', which wasn't terribly respectful. :-)
Again, let's step back and cool off, and try reasoning rather
than emoting. There's a lot of frustration here, apparently,
and I suspect some miscommunication and/or assumptions of
what others know.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by "John K. Sterling" <jo...@sterls.com>.
>-- Original Message --
>Reply-To: dev@httpd.apache.org
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Scott Hess <sc...@avantgo.com>
>To: dev@httpd.apache.org
>cc: dev@apr.apache.org, <pm...@httpd.apache.org>, <pm...@apr.apache.org>,
> <bo...@apache.org>, <rm...@covalent.net>, <do...@covalent.net>
>Subject: Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
>
>
....snip...
>As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
>compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
>website, somewhere.
there have been proposed uses within the core or within core modules (e.g.
usertrack). To facilitate these great extensions, the parser should be
in apr.
>>From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
>it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
Where did you get that idea? Jon said he would help maintain it i believe.
> 1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
> 2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
> 3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
> 4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
> abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
> 5) Integration work is hard work.
this is ponderous - I don't think Jon needs your advice. He has been an
active contributor here for a few years.
The point is that there are some uses for an html parser in apache (e.g.
usertrack rewriting urls, language translation, and many other filtering
applications). I personally think it would be nice to get the parser into
apr - then these extensions can be done immediately. If it is put external,
core modules will basically not be able to use it (since we don't want to
start adding external dependencies).
sterling
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by "John K. Sterling" <jo...@sterls.com>.
>-- Original Message --
>Reply-To: dev@httpd.apache.org
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Scott Hess <sc...@avantgo.com>
>To: dev@httpd.apache.org
>cc: dev@apr.apache.org, <pm...@httpd.apache.org>, <pm...@apr.apache.org>,
> <bo...@apache.org>, <rm...@covalent.net>, <do...@covalent.net>
>Subject: Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
>
>
....snip...
>As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
>compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
>website, somewhere.
there have been proposed uses within the core or within core modules (e.g.
usertrack). To facilitate these great extensions, the parser should be
in apr.
>>From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
>it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
Where did you get that idea? Jon said he would help maintain it i believe.
> 1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
> 2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
> 3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
> 4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
> abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
> 5) Integration work is hard work.
this is ponderous - I don't think Jon needs your advice. He has been an
active contributor here for a few years.
The point is that there are some uses for an html parser in apache (e.g.
usertrack rewriting urls, language translation, and many other filtering
applications). I personally think it would be nice to get the parser into
apr - then these extensions can be done immediately. If it is put external,
core modules will basically not be able to use it (since we don't want to
start adding external dependencies).
sterling
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Scott Hess <sc...@avantgo.com>.
[I am not an Apache contributor, merely a lurker, but...]
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are
> beneficial to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor
> the progress of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this
> deadline email has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad
> precedent for other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to
> contribute to the ASF.
>
> Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
> to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to
> management, they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds
> of politics and inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being
> excited about contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more
> trouble than it's worth.
As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
website, somewhere.
>From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
5) Integration work is hard work.
If you really want the ASF to pull this project into the Apache core, your
best bet is to volunteer to integrate it and write some example code.
After all, you're the one with the code, you're the one who wants to
contribute it to the community.
This isn't specific to the Apache group. This is just how open source
software works. And this basic thread happens every couple months on
every open source project I monitor.
As far as inflammatory emails, you must be reading lists that I don't have
access to, because I haven't seen it. Given that you've essentially asked
the community to prove that it's worthy of accepting your contribution,
I'm actually surprised the responses have been so calm.
Later,
scott
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Scott Hess <sc...@avantgo.com>.
[I am not an Apache contributor, merely a lurker, but...]
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are
> beneficial to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor
> the progress of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this
> deadline email has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad
> precedent for other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to
> contribute to the ASF.
>
> Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
> to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to
> management, they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds
> of politics and inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being
> excited about contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more
> trouble than it's worth.
As I said earlier: if all you want is to contribute the code, put a
compatible open source license on it and put it on a publicly accessable
website, somewhere.
>From following the thread, I get the feeling you don't want to contribute
it, you want someone to take ownership of it. A couple points:
1) Everyone here has a real-life job.
2) Many of those jobs don't involve Apache directly.
3) Anyone who's writing code has their own pet projects they want done.
4) Anyone without a pet project has a choice of dozens/hundreds of
abandoned/unmaintained projects to work on.
5) Integration work is hard work.
If you really want the ASF to pull this project into the Apache core, your
best bet is to volunteer to integrate it and write some example code.
After all, you're the one with the code, you're the one who wants to
contribute it to the community.
This isn't specific to the Apache group. This is just how open source
software works. And this basic thread happens every couple months on
every open source project I monitor.
As far as inflammatory emails, you must be reading lists that I don't have
access to, because I haven't seen it. Given that you've essentially asked
the community to prove that it's worthy of accepting your contribution,
I'm actually surprised the responses have been so calm.
Later,
scott
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>.
> The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
> everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
> out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
Which closed doors are those? There has been discussion on the dev list
and on the board list. Both of which are public lists that you can
subscribe to.
> It seems as though that is exactly what you've done -- "ignored it."
> I am constantly probing for information as to where this stands, both
> via these lists and asking on the #apr IRC channel. You're interpretation
> if "holding this over your head" is fairly outrageous, since Apache
> exists perfectly fine without this contribution.
I agree with you that Greg may have misinterpreted your message somewhat
and come on a little strong, but everything I have seen has pointed at
putting it somewhere, just nobody is sure where. I have yet to see you
suggest something to help place it properly, but I could easily have
missed that message in my flood of email.
-Rasmus
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:21:04PM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:33:25PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> > integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> > me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> > can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> > weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> > time & energy.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> > to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> > decided I'll look into other options.
>
>
> Jon --
>
> The HTTP Server Project, the APR Project, and the ASF will not abide by your
> threats of "taking the code elsewhere." We will not be subject to coercive
> behavior, nor do we look kindly upon the attempt. The ASF is about working
> together. Your message certainly does not mesh with our concepts of
> community and respect.
The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
I am not trying to coerce anyone -- I'm merely trying to put a limit
on the maximum amount of time that this will be debated. That is
a perfectly valid, and responsible thing to do.
> Frankly, there is no need or driving force for us to accept code donations.
> That means it isn't possible to "hold this over our heads." We can easily
> choose to ignore the whole thing, with no real loss to our fundamental
> ideals and to our communities.
It seems as though that is exactly what you've done -- "ignored it."
I am constantly probing for information as to where this stands, both
via these lists and asking on the #apr IRC channel. You're interpretation
if "holding this over your head" is fairly outrageous, since Apache
exists perfectly fine without this contribution.
> As of this moment, I'm going to recommend that the ASF will work directly
> with Covalent management regarding the donation. The other members involved
> may certainly choose to continue working through you [to Covalent], as I do
> not speak for them, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Your
> behavior does not bode well for your continued involvement in the process.
That's quite the attack (and one which fits in well with your
"concepts of community and respect"?) . All decisions which have been
made about this project (Open sourcing it, setting a deadline, etc.) have
been dictated by management at Covalent.
> If you want to persuade your management to publish the code through a
> different owner, or under a different license, then please feel free. If
> Covalent management chooses to not donate the code to the ASF, then so be
> it -- that is their choice. But take your coercive tactics elsewhere.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg Stein
> Chairman, Apache Software Foundation
These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are beneficial
to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor the progress
of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this deadline email
has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad precedent for
other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to contribute
to the ASF.
Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to management,
they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds of politics and
inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being excited about
contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more trouble than it's worth.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:21:04PM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:33:25PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> > integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> > me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> > can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> > weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> > time & energy.
> >
> > Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> > to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> > decided I'll look into other options.
>
>
> Jon --
>
> The HTTP Server Project, the APR Project, and the ASF will not abide by your
> threats of "taking the code elsewhere." We will not be subject to coercive
> behavior, nor do we look kindly upon the attempt. The ASF is about working
> together. Your message certainly does not mesh with our concepts of
> community and respect.
The ASF is apparently not about working together, since I (and
everyone else who is not on the PMC list) have been entirely left
out of all this conversation which is going on behind closed doors.
I am not trying to coerce anyone -- I'm merely trying to put a limit
on the maximum amount of time that this will be debated. That is
a perfectly valid, and responsible thing to do.
> Frankly, there is no need or driving force for us to accept code donations.
> That means it isn't possible to "hold this over our heads." We can easily
> choose to ignore the whole thing, with no real loss to our fundamental
> ideals and to our communities.
It seems as though that is exactly what you've done -- "ignored it."
I am constantly probing for information as to where this stands, both
via these lists and asking on the #apr IRC channel. You're interpretation
if "holding this over your head" is fairly outrageous, since Apache
exists perfectly fine without this contribution.
> As of this moment, I'm going to recommend that the ASF will work directly
> with Covalent management regarding the donation. The other members involved
> may certainly choose to continue working through you [to Covalent], as I do
> not speak for them, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Your
> behavior does not bode well for your continued involvement in the process.
That's quite the attack (and one which fits in well with your
"concepts of community and respect"?) . All decisions which have been
made about this project (Open sourcing it, setting a deadline, etc.) have
been dictated by management at Covalent.
> If you want to persuade your management to publish the code through a
> different owner, or under a different license, then please feel free. If
> Covalent management chooses to not donate the code to the ASF, then so be
> it -- that is their choice. But take your coercive tactics elsewhere.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg Stein
> Chairman, Apache Software Foundation
These are not coercive tactics. These are processes which are beneficial
to both the ASF and Covalent. I cannot continually monitor the progress
of this project for eternity. I'm astonished that this deadline email
has caused such a response. This sets an extremely bad precedent for
other companies (or anyone for that matter) who wants to contribute
to the ASF.
Personally (Covalent hat off), it's a bummer that this is your response
to the donation. I was the one who originally proposed it to management,
they agreed to it, and now I've gotten involved in all kinds of politics and
inflamatory emails. That's a long way from being excited about
contritributing to the ASF, and sadly seems like more trouble than it's worth.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:33:25PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> time & energy.
>
> Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> decided I'll look into other options.
Jon --
The HTTP Server Project, the APR Project, and the ASF will not abide by your
threats of "taking the code elsewhere." We will not be subject to coercive
behavior, nor do we look kindly upon the attempt. The ASF is about working
together. Your message certainly does not mesh with our concepts of
community and respect.
Frankly, there is no need or driving force for us to accept code donations.
That means it isn't possible to "hold this over our heads." We can easily
choose to ignore the whole thing, with no real loss to our fundamental
ideals and to our communities.
As of this moment, I'm going to recommend that the ASF will work directly
with Covalent management regarding the donation. The other members involved
may certainly choose to continue working through you [to Covalent], as I do
not speak for them, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Your
behavior does not bode well for your continued involvement in the process.
If you want to persuade your management to publish the code through a
different owner, or under a different license, then please feel free. If
Covalent management chooses to not donate the code to the ASF, then so be
it -- that is their choice. But take your coercive tactics elsewhere.
Regards,
Greg Stein
Chairman, Apache Software Foundation
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 01:33:25PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> time & energy.
>
> Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> decided I'll look into other options.
Jon --
The HTTP Server Project, the APR Project, and the ASF will not abide by your
threats of "taking the code elsewhere." We will not be subject to coercive
behavior, nor do we look kindly upon the attempt. The ASF is about working
together. Your message certainly does not mesh with our concepts of
community and respect.
Frankly, there is no need or driving force for us to accept code donations.
That means it isn't possible to "hold this over our heads." We can easily
choose to ignore the whole thing, with no real loss to our fundamental
ideals and to our communities.
As of this moment, I'm going to recommend that the ASF will work directly
with Covalent management regarding the donation. The other members involved
may certainly choose to continue working through you [to Covalent], as I do
not speak for them, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Your
behavior does not bode well for your continued involvement in the process.
If you want to persuade your management to publish the code through a
different owner, or under a different license, then please feel free. If
Covalent management chooses to not donate the code to the ASF, then so be
it -- that is their choice. But take your coercive tactics elsewhere.
Regards,
Greg Stein
Chairman, Apache Software Foundation
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Scott Hess <sc...@avantgo.com>.
I'm not sure I understand what your goal is, here. The discussion seems
to be +1 for including your parser somewhere in some Apache project in the
future, there's just no clear concensus on where. Is there any reason you
can't just release your project under the ASF license and be done with it?
Later,
scott
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
> integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
> me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
> can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
> weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
> time & energy.
>
> Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
> to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
> decided I'll look into other options.
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:36:21AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Hi all...
> > > Jon Travis here...
> > >
> > > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> > >
> > > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> > >
> > > -- Jon
> > >
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
time & energy.
Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
decided I'll look into other options.
-- Jon
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:36:21AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Hi all...
> > Jon Travis here...
> >
> > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> >
> > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Ok, since I'm not seeing any activity towards getting this
integrated, I'd like to set a deadline. This would help
me out, since it gives direction as to where the project
can go, as well as the ASF since political discussion shouldn't
weigh down the process. It will just save us all a lot of
time & energy.
Anyway, I'd like to give an additional week to the ASF
to deal with the code. Next Monday, if it hasn't been
decided I'll look into other options.
-- Jon
On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:36:21AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
>
> -- Jon
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> > Hi all...
> > Jon Travis here...
> >
> > Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> > which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> > whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> > anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> > APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> > pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> > the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
> >
> > Please voice any interest, thanks.
> >
> > -- Jon
> >
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Time for another ping. It's been 2 weeks. Any word?
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:30:35PM -0700, Sander van Zoest wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:29:24AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > > > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > > > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > > > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
> > > I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> > > equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> > > we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
> > I'm not keen on integrating it into the APR XML layer for a few reasons:
> > 1 - APR's XML is not SAX-stylee. El-Kabong is. That isn't to say that E-K
> > couldn't get a full object model interface, but it doesn't have it now.
>
> Expat is a stream based parsers that is pretty similar to SAX2. It
> isn't a DOM xml parser.
What does this have to do with anything? Expat is uninvolved here. I
was talking about the APR XML API, which may-or-may-not wrap Expat.
That API is DOM style.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:30:35PM -0700, Sander van Zoest wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:29:24AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > > > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > > > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > > > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
> > > I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> > > equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> > > we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
> > I'm not keen on integrating it into the APR XML layer for a few reasons:
> > 1 - APR's XML is not SAX-stylee. El-Kabong is. That isn't to say that E-K
> > couldn't get a full object model interface, but it doesn't have it now.
>
> Expat is a stream based parsers that is pretty similar to SAX2. It
> isn't a DOM xml parser.
What does this have to do with anything? Expat is uninvolved here. I
was talking about the APR XML API, which may-or-may-not wrap Expat.
That API is DOM style.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Sander van Zoest <sa...@vanzoest.com>.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:29:24AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
> > I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> > equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> > we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
> I'm not keen on integrating it into the APR XML layer for a few reasons:
> 1 - APR's XML is not SAX-stylee. El-Kabong is. That isn't to say that E-K
> couldn't get a full object model interface, but it doesn't have it now.
Expat is a stream based parsers that is pretty similar to SAX2. It
isn't a DOM xml parser.
--
Sander van Zoest sander@vanzoest.com
San Diego, CA, US http://Sander.vanZoest.com/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:29:24AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
> >
> > I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> > things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> > goals to be.
> >
> > If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> > committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
>
> (I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
>
> > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
>
> I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
I'm not keen on integrating it into the APR XML layer for a few reasons:
1 - APR's XML is not SAX-stylee. El-Kabong is. That isn't to say that E-K
couldn't get a full object model interface, but it doesn't have it now.
2 - XML and HTML, while related, have several large differences which
won't make a nice API (IMO).
3 - El-Kabong is quite speedy, and throwing another layer of indirection
on top of it isn't particularly appealing.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:29:24AM -0700, Aaron Bannert wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
> >
> > I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> > things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> > goals to be.
> >
> > If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> > committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
>
> (I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
>
> > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
>
> I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
I'm not keen on integrating it into the APR XML layer for a few reasons:
1 - APR's XML is not SAX-stylee. El-Kabong is. That isn't to say that E-K
couldn't get a full object model interface, but it doesn't have it now.
2 - XML and HTML, while related, have several large differences which
won't make a nice API (IMO).
3 - El-Kabong is quite speedy, and throwing another layer of indirection
on top of it isn't particularly appealing.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
> >
> > I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> > things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> > goals to be.
> >
> > If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> > committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
>
> (I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
>
> > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
>
> I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
I should also mention that I completely do not see this as equivalent to
apr-util. I reserve the right to ask for this project to be removed from
APR after the APR project has decided on it's stated goals. That does not
mean that it would be removed from the ASF (assuming my request is
approved), only that it would need to find a new home within the ASF
umbrella.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@ntrnet.net>.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
> >
> > I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> > things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> > goals to be.
> >
> > If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> > committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
>
> (I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
>
> > I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> > APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> > parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> > goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
>
> I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
> equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
> we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
I should also mention that I completely do not see this as equivalent to
apr-util. I reserve the right to ask for this project to be removed from
APR after the APR project has decided on it's stated goals. That does not
mean that it would be removed from the ASF (assuming my request is
approved), only that it would need to find a new home within the ASF
umbrella.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
>
> I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> goals to be.
>
> If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
(I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
> I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0400, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
>
> I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
> things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
> goals to be.
>
> If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
> committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
(I will defer answering this for an apr-only discussion.)
> I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
> APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
> parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
> goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
I'm +1 on integrating it into our XML stuff. I consider it to be
equivalent to apr-util, so either we put it inside apr-util, or
we create a new APR subproject or sub-library for it.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by rb...@apache.org.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
> > > the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
> > > and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
> >
> > I'm 100% comfy with the landing spot being in APR, as a compliment to
> > the XML routines.
>
> +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
goals to be.
If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by rb...@apache.org.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> > > Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
> > > the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
> > > and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
> >
> > I'm 100% comfy with the landing spot being in APR, as a compliment to
> > the XML routines.
>
> +1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
I am really uncomfortable with this going under the APR project. As
things stand right now, it just doesn't fit with what we have stated our
goals to be.
If you want to change our stated goals, then go ahead and do it. Just
committing code that doesn't fit with our goals isn't the way to do that.
I will make one exception to that statement. If it lands inside of
APR-util, under the XML directory, and it is made to work with the XML
parser, I can accept that landing spot. As it fits in closer with our
goals (I think). Jim, I can't decide if this is what you meant or not.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
550 Jean St
Oakland CA 94610
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
> > Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
> > the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
> > and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
>
> I'm 100% comfy with the landing spot being in APR, as a compliment to
> the XML routines.
+1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
> > Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
> > the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
> > and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
>
> I'm 100% comfy with the landing spot being in APR, as a compliment to
> the XML routines.
+1 from me, I prefer APR actually.
-aaron
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 09:45:19AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:42:39PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Any word on this?
> >
> > These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
> > absolutely no rush.
>
> Just wanted a word. More often than not, when something stops being
> discussed on the list, it drops off the face of the earth. I should
> know, I have many patches who've taken such a fall.. ;-)
Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
Regardless of the landing zone, it definitely appears that people like the
parser and would like to see it at the ASF. So the next step is the formal
process.
I'll grumble about to find the right bits to do and get back to you RSN.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 09:45:19AM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:42:39PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> > > Any word on this?
> >
> > These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
> > absolutely no rush.
>
> Just wanted a word. More often than not, when something stops being
> discussed on the list, it drops off the face of the earth. I should
> know, I have many patches who've taken such a fall.. ;-)
Justin and I have both given our thumbs up. The question is now where to put
the thing. A few people say APR, and few don't like that. A few say httpd,
and a few don't like that. Bleh :-)
Regardless of the landing zone, it definitely appears that people like the
parser and would like to see it at the ASF. So the next step is the formal
process.
I'll grumble about to find the right bits to do and get back to you RSN.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:42:39PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>
> > Any word on this?
>
> These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
> absolutely no rush.
Just wanted a word. More often than not, when something stops being
discussed on the list, it drops off the face of the earth. I should
know, I have many patches who've taken such a fall.. ;-)
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:42:39PM +0200, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
>
> > Any word on this?
>
> These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
> absolutely no rush.
Just wanted a word. More often than not, when something stops being
discussed on the list, it drops off the face of the earth. I should
know, I have many patches who've taken such a fall.. ;-)
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Any word on this?
These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
absolutely no rush.
Dw
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jon Travis wrote:
> Any word on this?
These things take time... and it pays off to do them well. There is
absolutely no rush.
Dw
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Any word on this?
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
> I can't publicly post the source under the ASF license until it has been
> accepted (which is a chicken & egg issue). I can, however, distribute
> to individuals on a restricted basis for evaluation for acceptance.
There is little (except for a few upset board members) stopping Covalent
of posting the code somewhere publicly under an ASF (style) license. This
has been done often in the past by the likes of IBM, Covalent and SUN at
various moments. Either using an ASF license, an ASF style licecense or a
BSD-ish license.
Alternatively putting no or a simple (c) on it; and no further
distribution clauses will make it simple 'look' but done re-distribute
code. Which allows anyone to look at it - but would not allow anyone to
re-distribute it.
Getting that code accepted into the ASF repositories is another story.
Dw
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:47:58AM -0700, daniel wrote:
>
> A couple of notes on the parser:
> - It is pretty lightweight and self contained
> - This HTML parser can be used for a multitude of applications, in Apache
> 2.0 filter modules. The filter processes content generated by Apache or proxied
> content and can rewrite URLs embedded in HTML pages:
> a) URL rewriting on the fly for cookieless tracking and single sign-on
> b) Allow ProxyPassReverse to modify not only HTTP headers but look inside
> proxied content and rewrite hardcoded URLs
> c) Strip banners or malicious javascript before it reaches the client
>
> Those are some possibilities that having a fast, lightweight parser allows.
> Jon, maybe you can post the source somewhere so people can have a look and
> play with it
>
> Daniel
I can't publicly post the source under the ASF license until it has been
accepted (which is a chicken & egg issue). I can, however, distribute
to individuals on a restricted basis for evaluation for acceptance.
-- Jon
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by daniel <da...@rawbyte.com>.
A couple of notes on the parser:
- It is pretty lightweight and self contained
- This HTML parser can be used for a multitude of applications, in Apache
2.0 filter modules. The filter processes content generated by Apache or proxied
content and can rewrite URLs embedded in HTML pages:
a) URL rewriting on the fly for cookieless tracking and single sign-on
b) Allow ProxyPassReverse to modify not only HTTP headers but look inside
proxied content and rewrite hardcoded URLs
c) Strip banners or malicious javascript before it reaches the client
Those are some possibilities that having a fast, lightweight parser allows.
Jon, maybe you can post the source somewhere so people can have a look and
play with it
Daniel
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
--
Teach Yourself Apache 2 -- http://apacheworld.org/ty24/
Re: El-Kabong -- HTML Parser
Posted by Jon Travis <jt...@covalent.net>.
Any word on this?
-- Jon
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 08:32:16PM -0700, Jon Travis wrote:
> Hi all...
> Jon Travis here...
>
> Covalent has written a pretty keen HTML parser (called el-kabong)
> which we'd like to offer to the ASF for inclusion in APR-util (or
> whichever other umbrella it fits under.) It's faster than
> anything I can find, provides a SAX stylee interface, uses
> APR for most of its operations (hash tables, etc.), and has a
> pretty nice testsuite. We use it in our code to re-write HTML on
> the fly. I would be the initial maintainer of the code.
>
> Please voice any interest, thanks.
>
> -- Jon
>