You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Andy Clark <ac...@zimbra.com> on 2006/06/24 23:55:56 UTC
Withdrawing Kabuki from Apache Incubator
Thanks for your extreme patience in the matter of
the proposed Kabuki contribution to the Apache
Incubator. The original delay was due to cleaning
up code, writing documentation, and other activities
to make the code ready for check-in to the Apache
source code repository.
While preparing the Kabuki project for submission,
Zimbra helped co-found the OpenAjax Alliance[1] with
partners like IBM and others to make open source AJAX
technology more available to developers and improve
interoperability between AJAX libraries. Throughout
that experience, we spent a lot of time in discussions
with others involved with the OpenAjax Alliance such
as IBM, Yahoo!, Google, Dojo, etc. and confess that
we have recently had second thoughts about whether
or not to submit Kabuki through the Apache Incubator
process.
A few of the things we've learned:
1) Most parties in the OpenAjax initiative believe
one sweet spot for AJAX toolkits will be for
augmenting existing HTML pages. This is a more
evolutionary approach that provides a more generic
fallback in terms of accessibility, legacy clients,
and so on. So a key constituency is the "HTML
design center", and today we believe Dojo to be a
better choice for HTML developers than Kabuki.
2) At least some of the Java UI developers prefer
to continue to do their coding work in Java and
then map the resulting application to Javascript
for deployment. This is the model at the heart of
the Google Web Toolkit (GWT), which is directly
targetted at the "Java design center", and is now
available under the Apache license.
3) Kabuki, which targets object-oriented programming
in Javascript, retains its sweet spot for developing
more revolutionary AJAX applications ("Javascript
design center") that seek to take the full advantage
of the browser's capabilities in native Javascript.
We think that Kabuki is an ideal fit for a certain
class of Ajax solutions but not for others. As such,
we expect Kabuki to co-exist with Dojo, GWT, and
others. We now agree with other members of OpenAjax
that a peer relationship between these projects is
best. We feel that this approach facilitates sharing
and collaboration and is better than an approach
where one project has a special relationship with
Apache while others do not.
Due to the fact that the AJAX landscape has grown
and changed so much since the start of the Kabuki
project and from our discussions with the OpenAjax
community, we have made the difficult decision to
withdraw Kabuki from consideration for incubation
at Apache.
As always, Zimbra remains deeply committed to open
source software and the open source community. The
Kabuki project will continue to be freely available
under the Apache license, the only difference that
it will be hosted at Zimbra.
We appreciate all of the help we've received by
everyone involved in submitting Kabuki as a project
for incubation at Apache and we apologize to anyone
who has been inconvenienced by this decision. While
we realize this decision may not be popular, we are
convinced that this is the right thing to do for
the OpenAjax Alliance, Apache, and Zimbra.
For anyone that is either frustrated or concerned
by this decision, please feel free to contact the
President and CTO of Zimbra, Scott Dietzen[2], as
he made the ultimate decision and he would like to
understand your concerns.
Thank you for your consideration.
[1] http://www.openajaxalliance.org/
[2] scott DOT dietzen AT zimbra DOT com
--
Andy Clark * Zimbra * aclark@zimbra.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Withdrawing Kabuki from Apache Incubator
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hi Andy,
Thanks for being frank and open. Changing your mind can
be such a hard thing to do, and changing the minds of
lots of people is even harder.
On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 02:55:56PM -0700, Andy Clark wrote:
> Thanks for your extreme patience in the matter of
> the proposed Kabuki contribution to the Apache
> Incubator.
...
> we have made the difficult decision to
> withdraw Kabuki from consideration for incubation
> at Apache.
...
> For anyone that is either frustrated or concerned
> by this decision, please feel free to contact the
> President and CTO of Zimbra, Scott Dietzen[2], as
> he made the ultimate decision and he would like to
> understand your concerns.
One nitpick: I can see how the decision Scott makes is
to not donate code to the ASF on behalf of Zimbra (or
himself) and not execute any grants and the like. But
the President of a company does not decide to stop the
incubation of an apache project. The incubating
community does that (and I take the "we" in the rest of
your message above to be that community), or perhaps the
Incubator PMC. Of course the point is kinda moot since
the idea was to start Kabuki with a donation from Zimbra
and it seems there's not all that much of a Kabuki
community right now, but its only "kinda" moot, and not
completely :)
cheers!
LSD
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Withdrawing Kabuki from Apache Incubator
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 6/24/06, Andy Clark <ac...@zimbra.com> wrote:
>
... (snip)
>
> We think that Kabuki is an ideal fit for a certain
> class of Ajax solutions but not for others. As such,
> we expect Kabuki to co-exist with Dojo, GWT, and
> others. We now agree with other members of OpenAjax
> that a peer relationship between these projects is
> best. We feel that this approach facilitates sharing
> and collaboration and is better than an approach
> where one project has a special relationship with
> Apache while others do not.
Hi Andy, hopefully you can help me understand this bit a bit better.
Having a formal relationship between the various pillars of the AJAX
community sounds like a great idea, but why would one of those
projects being at Apache give it an advantage over the others?
I ask this not to change your mind, we all follow our itch - be it
business, individual or community; but because I'm not seeing the
advantage. A more extreme question would be to wonder if this
advantage is going to be a problem for any Ajax initiatives that might
occur at the ASF?
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Withdrawing Kabuki from Apache Incubator
Posted by Andy Clark <an...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> In addition to Leo's comments, please keep in mind that code licensed
> under the Apache License, cannot be "withdrawn" from that license.
> You need not continue work on your project here, and since the Kabuki
> community had not gotten started, I don't know if there are others
> who might want to do so, but anyone with a copy of such licensed code
> will continue to have all provided rights.
Completely understood. The Kabuki toolkit will
continue to be available under the Apache license.
I've found through my personal experience that it's
one of the most approachable licenses within large
companies who want to use open source software in
their products. And the whole point is to make it
available and inter-operable for the largest number
of developers out there.
>> the Google Web Toolkit (GWT), which [is now] available under the
>> Apache license.
>
> Not so. Crucial key portions are under a non-Open Source license,
> thus it cannot be said that the GWT is available under the Apache
> [...]
Thanks for the correction.
--
Andy Clark * andyc@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Withdrawing Kabuki from Apache Incubator
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Andy,
Thank you for your message.
In addition to Leo's comments, please keep in mind that code licensed under the Apache License, cannot be "withdrawn" from that license. You need not continue work on your project here, and since the Kabuki community had not gotten started, I don't know if there are others who might want to do so, but anyone with a copy of such licensed code will continue to have all provided rights.
> the Google Web Toolkit (GWT), which [is now] available
> under the Apache license.
Not so. Crucial key portions are under a non-Open Source license, thus it cannot be said that the GWT is available under the Apache License. As per Google's download page, the "GWT Java class libraries used to build your applications are open source under the Apache License, Version 2.0. The GWT Java-to-JavaScript compiler and hosted web browser are shipped binary-only and subject to the license below."
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org