Stepping Back to Move Foward (WAS: RE: [VOTE] Stephen McConnell a s a committer)

["Farr, Aaron" <Aa...@am.sony.com>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org]
> 
> In conclusion - where is the Avalon team today in this trust model?
> Clearly a team needs to feel in control and masters of their own assets.
> I think this could have happened if the same approach were applied to
> the developers here as was applied to the Excalibur team.  The remaining
> question is one of identity.  Should the team start with a new identity
> around which it creates its own community as it sees fit - or should the
> team rebuild the Avalon identity?
> 
> I think a new identity is in the best interests of everyone.

And just about everyone agrees a "new identity" is a good idea.

Look, let's step back for a moment.

A week ago the Board issued a set of comments and recommendations to both
Avalon and the Metro team.  For those who have it, it would be worth while
to re-read that message.  Also re-read Brian Behlendorf's response.  There
were a series of concerns, one of which was the need for three projects
(Metro, Avalon, Excalibur).  When we began to discuss the idea of only two
projects (Metro and Excalibur) we got an initially favorable response from
several Board members.  

However, since that time the discussion has turned to arguing over community
styles, transparency and rehashing a lot of old issues.  This has left many
wondering if Metro really belongs in the ASF at all.  We are further away
from a TLP today than we were a week ago.  Much further away.

If Metro is interested in an ASF future it will require the Metro team to
seriously review and consider the concerns of the Board as raised in the
original response.  Unless the minds of quite a few officers and board
members can be changed, it will also require Incubation.  Merlin will most
likely not be allowed to simply stay in Avalon either.  Therefore, the Metro
team must begin evaluating the recommendations given to them and determine
the course of action they would like to take.  Otherwise, the decisions will
be made for them.

J. Aaron Farr
  SONY ELECTRONICS
  STP SYSTEMS
  (724) 696-7653

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RE: Stepping Back to Move Foward

[David Leangen <dl...@canada.com>]

> > PS - If you would like me, as a neutral outsider, to act as a
> > mediator, it would be my pleasure to do so.
>
> If your ready to put in time on this I'm ready to work with you.
>
> How do want to kick things off?


First, we need to have the various parties not only agree to use a mediator,
but to committ themselves to the process. If the various parties are not
committed, then there's nothing I can do. In addition, everybody has to
believe that I will be unbiased and will act in the best interests of all.
If that faith isn't there--i.e. if not everybody is able to take that leap
of faith--then the process will fail and we'll have wasted our time.

Let's see how everybody thinks about mediation and if you're all ready to
seriously think about getting past the interpersonal problems to solve these
issues, then I'll gladly be able to propose a process.


Regards,
Dave



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RE: Stepping Back to Move Foward

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Leangen [mailto:dleangen@canada.com]
> Sent: 29 September 2004 22:22
> To: Avalon Developers List
> Subject: RE: Stepping Back to Move Foward
> 
> 
> Again, I very much appreciate your explanations of the current
situation.
> I hope to see the current issues resolved in a positive, professional,
> and respectful manner, no matter what may have happened in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely
> Dave
> 
> PS - If you would like me, as a neutral outsider, to act as a
mediator, it
> would be my pleasure to do so.

If your ready to put in time on this I'm ready to work with you. 

How do want to kick things off?

Steve.



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RE: Stepping Back to Move Foward

[David Leangen <dl...@canada.com>]

Dear All,

I would like to thank you for three things: first, your assurance that my
questions, as a user, are indeed important to you. This is very reassuring.
Second, your detailed replies to my questions. This has helped me to better
understand the current dynamics. Third, I very much appreciate that this
discussion is out in the open, rather than on the private lists. I have no
doubt that others feel the same way.

I would like to make a suggestion, however. Again, it is probably not my
place, but I'll risk taking the initiative anyway.

It is obvious to me that you all take Avalon to heart. This is very
reassuring. It is clear that you are all acting in what you believe to be
the best interests of all. I think that you should all be commended on such
devotion.

However, from the small amount of discussion that I have seen so far, I
think that you all, not just Stephen, should try to put personal differences
aside and be more--I hate to use this word--professional.

I can certainly understand that there are frustrations. I believe that
conflict is a normal part of any community. It is how the community deals
with these conflicts that makes or breaks it.

As an example, the following:

> And more recently ...
>
>   4. steve is the spawn of the devil, here to corrupt the very soul
>      of the ASF
>
> OK - anyone who's into point 4 needs to get a life.

... is just one example of something completely unecessary. Now, before we
all go and point our fingers at Stephen, I would just like to point out that
although his words have been somewhat more direct, his are not the only ones
that are directed as personal attacks rather than discussion of the issues.
Personal attacks, no matter how polite, are still personal attacks.


I hate to make this type of post, especially as a newcomer, but I thought it
important to tell you how this discussion appears from the outside. In my
very humble opinion, I think that everybody would be much better off if
everyone were able to concentrate on the issues and not on their
frustrations with personal members.


Again, I very much appreciate your explanations of the current situation. I
hope to see the current issues resolved in a positive, professional, and
respectful manner, no matter what may have happened in the past.



Sincerely
Dave

PS - If you would like me, as a neutral outsider, to act as a mediator, it
would be my pleasure to do so.



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RE: Stepping Back to Move Foward (WAS: RE: [VOTE] Stephen McConnell as a committer)

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Farr, Aaron [mailto:Aaron.Farr@am.sony.com]
> Sent: 29 September 2004 17:50
> To: 'Avalon Developers List'
> Subject: Stepping Back to Move Foward (WAS: RE: [VOTE] Stephen
McConnell
> as a committer)
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org]
> >
> > In conclusion - where is the Avalon team today in this trust model?
> > Clearly a team needs to feel in control and masters of their own
assets.
> > I think this could have happened if the same approach were applied
to
> > the developers here as was applied to the Excalibur team.  The
remaining
> > question is one of identity.  Should the team start with a new
identity
> > around which it creates its own community as it sees fit - or should
the
> > team rebuild the Avalon identity?
> >
> > I think a new identity is in the best interests of everyone.
> 
> And just about everyone agrees a "new identity" is a good idea.
> 
> Look, let's step back for a moment.
> 
> A week ago the Board issued a set of comments and recommendations to
both
> Avalon and the Metro team.  For those who have it, it would be worth
while
> to re-read that message.  Also re-read Brian Behlendorf's response.
There
> were a series of concerns, one of which was the need for three
projects
> (Metro, Avalon, Excalibur).  When we began to discuss the idea of only
two
> projects (Metro and Excalibur) we got an initially favorable response
from
> several Board members.

The feedback from the board was certainly helpful and in my mind can be
summarized along the following lines:

  1. concerns related to the breakup of Avalon and how this would impact
     users here at apache and outside

  2. concerns related to the historical patterns of conflict-centered 
     processes and in particular - the potential for that process model
     to be carried over within future endeavors

  3. concerns that the separation is driven by an inability of people
     to get along together

And more recently ...

  4. steve is the spawn of the devil, here to corrupt the very soul 
     of the ASF

OK - anyone who's into point 4 needs to get a life.

So the first question is - yes or no - do we agree on that point 1-3 are
points that justify our attention?  If there is general consensus that
these points should be addressed then deal with them individually.

Stephen.




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