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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org> on 2003/11/25 00:08:07 UTC
Generated sites
Howdy,
Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites? That seems
uneccessary given that the sources from which the site is being
generated are kept in CVS. Even in the event of disaster it would take
minutes in addition to whatever other recovery work was required in
order to build the site as opposed to checking out the site.
Just seems 1) Error prone 2) A waste of resources and 3) Cumbersome and
not really conducive to people updating the site.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 18:25, Martin Cooper wrote:
> "Jason van Zyl" <jv...@maven.org> wrote in message
> news:1069715287.27304.229.camel@localhost.localdomain...
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
>
> Because it's currently required. See:
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=106917796130227&w=2
So why can't we decide to change this or just let each project do what
they want conidering the incubator is not supposed to be a long-lived
home and the sooner projects are autonomous the better.
> The same discussion has been going on in Jakarta Commons.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> > That seems
> > uneccessary given that the sources from which the site is being
> > generated are kept in CVS. Even in the event of disaster it would take
> > minutes in addition to whatever other recovery work was required in
> > order to build the site as opposed to checking out the site.
> >
> > Just seems 1) Error prone 2) A waste of resources and 3) Cumbersome and
> > not really conducive to people updating the site.
> >
> > --
> > jvz.
> >
> > Jason van Zyl
> > jason@zenplex.com
> > http://tambora.zenplex.org
> >
> > In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
> > and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
> >
> > -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
"Jason van Zyl" <jv...@maven.org> wrote in message
news:1069715287.27304.229.camel@localhost.localdomain...
> Howdy,
>
> Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
Because it's currently required. See:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=106917796130227&w=2
The same discussion has been going on in Jakarta Commons.
--
Martin Cooper
> That seems
> uneccessary given that the sources from which the site is being
> generated are kept in CVS. Even in the event of disaster it would take
> minutes in addition to whatever other recovery work was required in
> order to build the site as opposed to checking out the site.
>
> Just seems 1) Error prone 2) A waste of resources and 3) Cumbersome and
> not really conducive to people updating the site.
>
> --
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
> jason@zenplex.com
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
>
> In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
> and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
>
> -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 19:11, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 18:30, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
> >
> > Because that is what infrastructure has asked. The rest of your points are
> > all perfectly valid. My best understanding is summarized here:
> >
> >
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.a
> > pache.org&msgNo=5207
> >
> > But this really is an infrastructure issue, since that is from where the
> > request comes. There are people, like Stefano, working to change the site
> > publication system. I'm sure that your participation would be welcomed.
>
> Why do we need grand site publications schemes? Geronimo is using Maven
> and it's trivial to site:deploy. Why is it strictly the duty of
> infrastructure to restore the site in the case of disaster? I'm sure
> someone from a project would gladly work with infrastructure to restore
> their site in case of a problem. Why does there need to be these grand
> schemes for infrastructure and site publication?
>
> The people in the specific projects have the knowledge about their site
> publication mechanisms and in cooperation with people from
> infrastructure I guarantee you a site would go quickly in the event
that should be: a site would go up quickly in the event something
tanked.
> something tanked.
>
> > -- Noel
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote on 25/11/2003 11:22:49 AM:
> > > Why do we need grand site publications schemes? Geronimo is using
> > > Maven and it's trivial to site:deploy.
> >
> > Umm, it took three weeks to find someone capable of running site:deploy
> > for Geronimo. I think I was the third person who tried (and failed).
>
> What were the issues?
>
> Point me at a particular thread so we can help out.
There was a problem doing a build. That problem should have been reported
to maven sooner, but has been addressed by now.
However, being able to do a build and being able to do recovery must be two
separate issues in my mind. Even if we have a build server, it has to
maintain at least one successful build, as well as the build it is trying to
generate. We cannot hold recovery hostage to something breaking in the
build process. At any given time we need to have:
minotaur:/www
minos:/www
minos:/staging
Or something to that effect. Staging/ would not get moved to www/ unless it
is successful, which allows minotaur to be recovered from minos*.
--- Noel
* minos being the hypothetical build server. King Minos commissioned
daedalus to build the minotaur's labyrinth.
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote on 25/11/2003 11:22:49 AM:
> > Why do we need grand site publications schemes? Geronimo is using
Maven
> > and it's trivial to site:deploy.
>
> Umm, it took three weeks to find someone capable of running site:deploy
> for Geronimo. I think I was the third person who tried (and failed).
What were the issues?
Point me at a particular thread so we can help out.
If it was a maven problem, a posting to users@maven would get help
quicker.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> Why do we need grand site publications schemes? Geronimo is using Maven
> and it's trivial to site:deploy.
Umm, it took three weeks to find someone capable of running site:deploy
for Geronimo. I think I was the third person who tried (and failed).
I think it would be better to build from CVS, but for that to happen
all of the site publishing groups need to cooperate and produce a
single build script (either on minotaur or some staging machine) and
have the complete set of publishing tools installed on that machine
so that we can regenerate the site.
> Why is it strictly the duty of
> infrastructure to restore the site in the case of disaster? I'm sure
> someone from a project would gladly work with infrastructure to restore
> their site in case of a problem. Why does there need to be these grand
> schemes for infrastructure and site publication?
Because of grand failures on the part of some projects to do exactly
what you assume above. Sometimes we get a security-related problem
crop up that requires an immediate posting of information on the
relevant site, and it is truly amazing how often that coincides with
people going on vacation or simply not reading their e-mail.
....Roy
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 18:30, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
>
> Because that is what infrastructure has asked. The rest of your points are
> all perfectly valid. My best understanding is summarized here:
>
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.a
> pache.org&msgNo=5207
>
> But this really is an infrastructure issue, since that is from where the
> request comes. There are people, like Stefano, working to change the site
> publication system. I'm sure that your participation would be welcomed.
Why do we need grand site publications schemes? Geronimo is using Maven
and it's trivial to site:deploy. Why is it strictly the duty of
infrastructure to restore the site in the case of disaster? I'm sure
someone from a project would gladly work with infrastructure to restore
their site in case of a problem. Why does there need to be these grand
schemes for infrastructure and site publication?
The people in the specific projects have the knowledge about their site
publication mechanisms and in cooperation with people from
infrastructure I guarantee you a site would go quickly in the event
something tanked.
> -- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> My personal example was once trying to get Scarab running on
>> Nagoya and not being able to find Pier for a week. I was all
>> ready and raring to go and was stopped dead in my tracks.
>
> Ah...I get it now...I've had moments like that (for example, wanting
> to get gump running on moof, or getting gump fixed on nagoya), and
> I've frequently given up. Maybe it has to do with who admins a
> particular machine and their availability at a given time.
Jason's experience was probably before Pier decided to enlist more root
folks for nagoya. And there was a bit of time when we were expecting
operating system upgrades on nagoya and moof.
I wouldn't mind if someone fixed gump on nagoya. I've been cleaning up
after it for months. Although hopefully soon, we'll have a new server for
it.
--- Noel
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>what exactly do you doubt?
>>
>>
>That somewhere between getting access and now, in your moment of fire of
>trying to get something done you were stopped in your tracks because you
>were probably waiting on something else to happen first. I should have
>explained that better. My personal example was once trying to get Scarab
>running on Nagoya and not being able to find Pier for a week. I was all
>ready and raring to go and was stopped dead in my tracks.
>
Ah...I get it now...I've had moments like that (for example, wanting
to get gump running on moof, or getting gump fixed on nagoya), and
I've frequently given up. Maybe it has to do with who admins a
particular machine and their availability at a given time. IIUC, the
combined roots of minotaur have way more time than the combined
roots on any of the other boxen. Maybe we just need more sudoers.
<big-snip/>
>>I guess all I meant to point out is that I don't feel like I'm being
>>crippled
>>by a committee.
>>
>>
>It's not prevalent, I just see hints of it and I would hope that
>developer desire here for certain things being in place takes precedent
>over infrastructure policy.
>
I think I just saw you volunteer to be on the infrastructure@ team...
that will probably help in tipping the scales a bit :D
- LSD
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 15:06, Leo Simons wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 11:32, Leo Simons wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Jason volunteered, I volunteered, we were given access easily enough,
> >>proposals were accepted easily enough, and then it just took weeks for
> >>us to get things in shape. That's got little to do with process or
> >>committees, but more with the busy agenda of the volunteers.
> >>
> >>
> >I doubt that.
> >
> what exactly do you doubt? That I was given access, that my agenda is
> full, or
> that there wasn't a committee in the way? Does not compute...(yes, I am
> dense)
That somewhere between getting access and now, in your moment of fire of
trying to get something done you were stopped in your tracks because you
were probably waiting on something else to happen first. I should have
explained that better. My personal example was once trying to get Scarab
running on Nagoya and not being able to find Pier for a week. I was all
ready and raring to go and was stopped dead in my tracks.
> >>I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
> >>two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
> >>week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
> >>it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack of
> >>volunteers.
> >>
> >>
> >Rigth, as with everything things just mysteriously disappear into a
> >blackhole. Why is that?
> >
> "In Open Source, many create, few finish." - can't remember who said that.
That's fine for projects but not for infrastructure. The infrastructure
needs to be in place so that all those people have a place to store
their unfinished projects :-)
> I don't know. Do you? Maybe we just need an issue tracker.
That would be absolutely. We use JIRA at codehaus and it works great. We
could even open a project there in the interim and it will just come
over with the rest of migrant data.
> >>With geronimo, the guys were told several times over the course
> >>of several weeks how to generate and get in place their website
> >>(which is not rocket science). That's got nothing to do with
> >>committees either.
> >>
> >>
> >You mean with Forrest? Or with Maven?
> >
> maven of course:
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org&msgNo=4475
I think they got it sorted out with some help. I was willing to help as
was Dion but neither of us knew until a couple days ago.
> >>I think you make good points about process (the ASF can be quite
> >>slow-moving and more than a little formal in some respects), but
> >>somehow my perspective on the examples you provided is quite
> >>different...
> >>
> >>
> >What does that mean? That you're willing to wait around and I'm not? I
> >don't mind doing some work. I just don't want to be crippled by
> >committee.
> >
> I am not sure what that means, but certainly not that you're not willing to
> wait nor willing to work. I'll be happy to assert you do a lot more work
> around the ASF than me, and your patience has also been tested on various
> items a lot more than has mine.
>
> I guess all I meant to point out is that I don't feel like I'm being
> crippled
> by a committee.
It's not prevalent, I just see hints of it and I would hope that
developer desire here for certain things being in place takes precedent
over infrastructure policy.
> cheers!
>
> - LSD
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 11:32, Leo Simons wrote:
>
>
>>Jason volunteered, I volunteered, we were given access easily enough,
>>proposals were accepted easily enough, and then it just took weeks for
>>us to get things in shape. That's got little to do with process or
>>committees, but more with the busy agenda of the volunteers.
>>
>>
>I doubt that.
>
what exactly do you doubt? That I was given access, that my agenda is
full, or
that there wasn't a committee in the way? Does not compute...(yes, I am
dense)
>>I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
>>two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
>>week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
>>it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack of
>>volunteers.
>>
>>
>Rigth, as with everything things just mysteriously disappear into a
>blackhole. Why is that?
>
"In Open Source, many create, few finish." - can't remember who said that.
I don't know. Do you? Maybe we just need an issue tracker.
>>With geronimo, the guys were told several times over the course
>>of several weeks how to generate and get in place their website
>>(which is not rocket science). That's got nothing to do with
>>committees either.
>>
>>
>You mean with Forrest? Or with Maven?
>
maven of course:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org&msgNo=4475
>>I think you make good points about process (the ASF can be quite
>>slow-moving and more than a little formal in some respects), but
>>somehow my perspective on the examples you provided is quite
>>different...
>>
>>
>What does that mean? That you're willing to wait around and I'm not? I
>don't mind doing some work. I just don't want to be crippled by
>committee.
>
I am not sure what that means, but certainly not that you're not willing to
wait nor willing to work. I'll be happy to assert you do a lot more work
around the ASF than me, and your patience has also been tested on various
items a lot more than has mine.
I guess all I meant to point out is that I don't feel like I'm being
crippled
by a committee.
cheers!
- LSD
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Infrastructure isn't standing in the way of Jira. Infrastructure wants
to
> > USE Jira.
> So why don't we start right now. I can setup a project on the codehaus
> box and it can get migrated with the rest of the stuff.
Ask on infrastructure, but I think that people are willing to wait. What is
of more importance is an account workflow webapp that Cliff asked if someone
would volunteer to write.
--- Noel
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 21:34, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > Leo Simons wrote:
> > > I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
> > > two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
> > > week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
> > > it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack
> of
> > > volunteers.
>
> > Rigth, as with everything things just mysteriously disappear into a
> > blackhole. Why is that?
>
> Ask Jeff, although I doubt that he'll appreciate being called a blackhole.
> He might, however, let you know about all of the issues with Jira data
> migration that you don't know about.
>
> Infrastructure isn't standing in the way of Jira. Infrastructure wants to
> USE Jira.
So why don't we start right now. I can setup a project on the codehaus
box and it can get migrated with the rest of the stuff.
> --- Noel
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
> > I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
> > two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
> > week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
> > it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack
of
> > volunteers.
> Rigth, as with everything things just mysteriously disappear into a
> blackhole. Why is that?
Ask Jeff, although I doubt that he'll appreciate being called a blackhole.
He might, however, let you know about all of the issues with Jira data
migration that you don't know about.
Infrastructure isn't standing in the way of Jira. Infrastructure wants to
USE Jira.
--- Noel
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 11:32, Leo Simons wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> >I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
> >Wiki setup and JIRA.
> >
> maybe that's because you're watching :D
>
> seriously...some food for thought perhaps...
>
> the wiki is the first bit of ASF infrastructure I'm getting more than
> passively involved in.
>
> Jason volunteered, I volunteered, we were given access easily enough,
> proposals were accepted easily enough, and then it just took weeks for
> us to get things in shape. That's got little to do with process or
> committees, but more with the busy agenda of the volunteers.
I doubt that.
> I think if people with more of a JFDI attitude and more time (and skill)
> on their hands had jumped in to do the work, it could've been done
> weeks ago. I spiked it yesterday; just wasn't time before.
Again, I doubt that.
> I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
> two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
> week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
> it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack of
> volunteers.
Rigth, as with everything things just mysteriously disappear into a
blackhole. Why is that?
> > And that I will be further frustrated in the fact
> >that I can't generate a site because I'm waiting for two committees to
> >reach a decisions.
> >
> If the Incubator PMC were to say to infrastructure "look, we don't
> like this setup and we'll take full responsibility for doing things
> otherwise" I doubt there'd be that much of an issue, as long as basic
> security policy is followed. Its the choice of the Incubator PMC not
> to do so; so any frustration should probably be directed at us :D
The problem is that no one knows where the hell to direct anything.
Typically it's "ask them, we don't know". Or "it's up to them now, we're
just waiting on them".
> With geronimo, the guys were told several times over the course
> of several weeks how to generate and get in place their website
> (which is not rocket science). That's got nothing to do with
> committees either.
You mean with Forrest? Or with Maven?
> I think you make good points about process (the ASF can be quite
> slow-moving and more than a little formal in some respects), but
> somehow my perspective on the examples you provided is quite
> different...
What does that mean? That you're willing to wait around and I'm not? I
don't mind doing some work. I just don't want to be crippled by
committee.
> cheers!
>
> - LSD
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
>Wiki setup and JIRA.
>
maybe that's because you're watching :D
seriously...some food for thought perhaps...
the wiki is the first bit of ASF infrastructure I'm getting more than
passively involved in.
Jason volunteered, I volunteered, we were given access easily enough,
proposals were accepted easily enough, and then it just took weeks for
us to get things in shape. That's got little to do with process or
committees, but more with the busy agenda of the volunteers.
I think if people with more of a JFDI attitude and more time (and skill)
on their hands had jumped in to do the work, it could've been done
weeks ago. I spiked it yesterday; just wasn't time before.
I guess most of the same applies to Jira. We were waiting for a week or
two for Noel and Serge to get things in place, now we're waiting for a
week or two more for Jeff to finish something I can't remember. IMV,
it has got little to do with committees, more with lack of time / lack of
volunteers.
> And that I will be further frustrated in the fact
>that I can't generate a site because I'm waiting for two committees to
>reach a decisions.
>
If the Incubator PMC were to say to infrastructure "look, we don't
like this setup and we'll take full responsibility for doing things
otherwise" I doubt there'd be that much of an issue, as long as basic
security policy is followed. Its the choice of the Incubator PMC not
to do so; so any frustration should probably be directed at us :D
With geronimo, the guys were told several times over the course
of several weeks how to generate and get in place their website
(which is not rocket science). That's got nothing to do with
committees either.
I think you make good points about process (the ASF can be quite
slow-moving and more than a little formal in some respects), but
somehow my perspective on the examples you provided is quite
different...
cheers!
- LSD
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by "B. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org> writes:
> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 23:39, B. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> > > Or if it is an absolute requirement that we have the boxes then why
> > > doesn't each member pitch in a 100 bucks and we'll buy some machines
> > > instead of waiting for the tooth fairy to drop them in our lap. I'll
> > > donate a 100 bucks.
> >
> > We're not waiting for the tooth fairy to drop hardware in our laps--the
> > fundraising committee has already informed infrastructure that once it
> > decides what it needs in the way of hardware, it should let us know the
> > spec and we'll get the boxes donated from somewhere. The ASF needs to
> > use cash for things that we can't get donated like monthly colo
> > ($1500ish) and possible legal defense (could be anything).
>
> So realistically no one would ever be able to answer the question: "When
> would we going to get a server so we can generate sites."
Well, once the infrastructure guys pull the trigger, then it's up to
fundraising to get our ass in gear. We haven't heard anything yet.
> I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
> Wiki setup and JIRA. And that I will be further frustrated in the fact
> that I can't generate a site because I'm waiting for two committees to
> reach a decisions.
I understand your frustration, but this is more of a matter of
pipelining--infrastructure makes up its mind and then it's up to
fundraising to execute... I'm not sure what to say here that would get
your server(s) available any more quickly. Can moof.apache.org (Mac OS
X) help you?
> > However, if you want to donate cash (tax deductable--at least for US
> > citizens), you can do so very easily via PayPal:
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html
>
> Absolutely I will put my money where my mouth is. 100 bucks just came
> your way.
Woohoo! Thanks!
-Fitz
--
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com>.
What wiki's need to be created? I can create, but right now do not
have time to migrate data from the usemod wiki.
If ya just want a vanilla wiki though, that is simple.
--jason
On Nov 25, 2003, at 12:35 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get
>> a
>> Wiki setup and JIRA.
>
> On top of all the work that Jason Dillon did, Leo Simon worked all
> night
> tonight on code changes to MoinMoin. It appears he's finished. The
> Geronino and General Wikis need updating (the code), but the new
> Incubator
> Wiki looks right. We should now be able to create Wikis in the farm
> fairly
> easily.
>
> JIRA is in the hands of Jeff Turner. As far as I know, the delay is
> all
> related to data migration capabilities.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 12:44, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Had that done the night you were asking on infrastructure
> > > that we leave Maven on codehaus because you didn't want to
> > > move at the time.
>
> > Because no one gave me a heads up until after the fact which annoyed me
> > greatly.
>
> After what fact? I didn't realize that you needed to be consulted before
> the ASF could install a service, or look into what it would take to migrate
> data.
It wasn't about the JIRA service being installed. It was about a
notification that Maven's data would be moved: that was the first
message posted to the list. When I asked how that could be possible you
responded something something like: "It's an ASF project so why can't we
just move it.". It sounded more like we were being told than being
asked. Serge has claried that the move of the data is optional but that
didn't sound like the message in the first message you posted to
maven-dev.
> However it might have appeared to you, no one was planning to move projects
> without prior notice.
Glad to hear it.
> I still have a message sitting in my Draft folder to
> send out, except that we ran into snags doing our migration. First the
> projects would review the migration, to make sure that they are happy, then
> we would do it all over again to catch the live data (since we would lock
> down the codehaus Jira until we were planning the final move).
Coolio.
> --- Noel
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Had that done the night you were asking on infrastructure
> > that we leave Maven on codehaus because you didn't want to
> > move at the time.
> Because no one gave me a heads up until after the fact which annoyed me
> greatly.
After what fact? I didn't realize that you needed to be consulted before
the ASF could install a service, or look into what it would take to migrate
data.
However it might have appeared to you, no one was planning to move projects
without prior notice. I still have a message sitting in my Draft folder to
send out, except that we ran into snags doing our migration. First the
projects would review the migration, to make sure that they are happy, then
we would do it all over again to catch the live data (since we would lock
down the codehaus Jira until we were planning the final move).
--- Noel
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 00:01, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Migration is not built into Jira. The XML export is for backup, not
> > > migration. I hacked a migration of the database, but we ran into
> > > some problems. Jeff, who works for Atlassian, asked if he could
> > > take over the migration so that they could debug it. So we're waiting
> > > while Jeff finishes whatever he's doing related to migration.
>
> > Why don't you just take our entire install with a real database dump and
> > delete what you don't want. I'm sure with a little consultation with the
> > other projects they probably wouldn't mind.
>
> > Then you can have the whole self-contained beast up and running, who
> > cares about the migration just delete what's non-apache and go from
> > there. It's MySQL on both ends so probably not that big a deal.
>
> What do you think Bob and I did? I wrote a SQL script to massage the raw
> data from codehaus.
I thought you were trying to use the XML dumps from JIRA.
> Had that done the night you were asking on
> infrastructure that we leave Maven on codehaus because you didn't want to
> move at the time.
>
Because no one gave me a heads up until after the fact which annoyed me
greatly. There are actually questions you chose not to answer which I
asked you directly when the situation arose i.e. that you thought it
within the purview of infrastructure to move Maven issues simply because
Maven is an Apache project without having to consult the people involved
in the project.
If it makes it easier just take our install wholus bolus with an
unmassaged dump and I'm sure you can remove what's necessary when you're
done. But I didn't realize you were using the raw SQL, I thought you
were using the xml import/export thing.
> When tested all of the features, we found problems in the migration, which
> Jeff wanted to look into. One of his comments was that Jira probably did
> not like a raw database migration because of some of its other quirks. He
> was going to do the same thing to the XML format that I had done to the SQL
> format, and try to import that way. I believe that the reason we haven't
> heard much from him is because he got Bob's permission to take a copy of the
> codehaus dump to a test machine at Atlassian, which is where he is working
> on migration rather than on nagoya.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Migration is not built into Jira. The XML export is for backup, not
> > migration. I hacked a migration of the database, but we ran into
> > some problems. Jeff, who works for Atlassian, asked if he could
> > take over the migration so that they could debug it. So we're waiting
> > while Jeff finishes whatever he's doing related to migration.
> Why don't you just take our entire install with a real database dump and
> delete what you don't want. I'm sure with a little consultation with the
> other projects they probably wouldn't mind.
> Then you can have the whole self-contained beast up and running, who
> cares about the migration just delete what's non-apache and go from
> there. It's MySQL on both ends so probably not that big a deal.
What do you think Bob and I did? I wrote a SQL script to massage the raw
data from codehaus. Had that done the night you were asking on
infrastructure that we leave Maven on codehaus because you didn't want to
move at the time.
When tested all of the features, we found problems in the migration, which
Jeff wanted to look into. One of his comments was that Jira probably did
not like a raw database migration because of some of its other quirks. He
was going to do the same thing to the XML format that I had done to the SQL
format, and try to import that way. I believe that the reason we haven't
heard much from him is because he got Bob's permission to take a copy of the
codehaus dump to a test machine at Atlassian, which is where he is working
on migration rather than on nagoya.
--- Noel
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 21:34, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I'm just trying to draw a constrast between the way things used to be
> > done here, how Bob and I do things at Codehaus and the atmosphere that
> > is now here where doing anything seems to be a long drawn out, protacted
> > flurry of tome-like essays between committees.
>
> Leo and Jason were given apsite karma, given karma for the CVS modules,
> given a free hand to setup the Wiki. Whatever help they asked for they were
> given. In the middle of getting things setup, Jason relocated from Thailand
> to California. Bob was given all the access he needed to migrate the
> Geronimo Wiki when it was /.'d. You can ask him. Leo picked up last night,
> and pushed through a bunch of changes to the code.
>
> As for Jira, there is no committee. I have root on nagoya, and full access
> to do whatever necessary, including giving accounts to whomever needed one
> to help. Serge, Bob and I worked on Jira and had it done except for bugs in
> the migration process. Yes, you can setup new installs and new projects.
> That much is easy. And if it were not for needing to import projects from
> codehaus, which has to be done BEFORE setting up new local projects, we'd be
> OK to bring up a new install. Migration is not built into Jira. The XML
> export is for backup, not migration. I hacked a migration of the database,
> but we ran into some problems. Jeff, who works for Atlassian, asked if he
> could take over the migration so that they could debug it. So we're waiting
> while Jeff finishes whatever he's doing related to migration.
Why don't you just take our entire install with a real database dump and
delete what you don't want. I'm sure with a little consultation with the
other projects they probably wouldn't mind.
Then you can have the whole self-contained beast up and running, who
cares about the migration just delete what's non-apache and go from
there. It's MySQL on both ends so probably not that big a deal.
> I'll point out the irony of yelling about infrastructure throwing up
> roadblocks on the day that you asked for a change in the infrastructure,
> volunteered to do the work on it, and became part of the infrastructure
> team. :-)
I don't think it's anyone intentionally throwing up roadblocks. I don't
think any of it is intentional when things don't get done it's just
entropy kicking in. And I have been helped many times and I am not
thankless but there still are obstacles but I'm fully willing to discuss
the problem and try to help, take care of things I can myself to
alleviate the burden on infrastructure.
> --- Noel
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I'm just trying to draw a constrast between the way things used to be
> done here, how Bob and I do things at Codehaus and the atmosphere that
> is now here where doing anything seems to be a long drawn out, protacted
> flurry of tome-like essays between committees.
Leo and Jason were given apsite karma, given karma for the CVS modules,
given a free hand to setup the Wiki. Whatever help they asked for they were
given. In the middle of getting things setup, Jason relocated from Thailand
to California. Bob was given all the access he needed to migrate the
Geronimo Wiki when it was /.'d. You can ask him. Leo picked up last night,
and pushed through a bunch of changes to the code.
As for Jira, there is no committee. I have root on nagoya, and full access
to do whatever necessary, including giving accounts to whomever needed one
to help. Serge, Bob and I worked on Jira and had it done except for bugs in
the migration process. Yes, you can setup new installs and new projects.
That much is easy. And if it were not for needing to import projects from
codehaus, which has to be done BEFORE setting up new local projects, we'd be
OK to bring up a new install. Migration is not built into Jira. The XML
export is for backup, not migration. I hacked a migration of the database,
but we ran into some problems. Jeff, who works for Atlassian, asked if he
could take over the migration so that they could debug it. So we're waiting
while Jeff finishes whatever he's doing related to migration.
I'll point out the irony of yelling about infrastructure throwing up
roadblocks on the day that you asked for a change in the infrastructure,
volunteered to do the work on it, and became part of the infrastructure
team. :-)
--- Noel
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 03:35, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
> > Wiki setup and JIRA.
>
> On top of all the work that Jason Dillon did, Leo Simon worked all night
> tonight on code changes to MoinMoin. It appears he's finished.
That's all well and good. My statements are simply a gentle warning at
keeping the infrastructure team from becoming like the dreaded IT
departments in corporate environments where you have the make a
requisition to get anything done. To try and not alienate your own
volunteer base by making it impossible to participate because it doesn't
meet the standard of absolutely no down time which I still argue is an
impossibility with all volunteers.
I'm just trying to draw a constrast between the way things used to be
done here, how Bob and I do things at Codehaus and the atmosphere that
is now here where doing anything seems to be a long drawn out, protacted
flurry of tome-like essays between committees.
Bob and I managed in 1 day to find a managed hosting solution that
provided 10x the allowed bandwidth, the same network redundancy for a
better price due to donations and ad deals we worked out. We've
installed JIRA 4 times now, upgrades take 20 minutes and the Wiki was
setup in under two hours. We certainly don't have the traffic Apache has
or the resources to track but I think we've managed to find a good
balance between managed hosting and a set of volunteers who are allowed
to participate as much as they like to control their projects.
If a project doesn't care to participate in helping out with their own
projects and is just trying to leech off the Apache name then throw them
to the wolves because they don't deserve to be here. Infrastructure
should not be burdened with every task because as a volunteer
organization it obviously isn't scaling given the massive amounts of
times it is taking to get some things done.
> The
> Geronino and General Wikis need updating (the code), but the new Incubator
> Wiki looks right. We should now be able to create Wikis in the farm fairly
> easily.
>
> JIRA is in the hands of Jeff Turner. As far as I know, the delay is all
> related to data migration capabilities.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
>>Wiki setup and JIRA.
>
> On top of all the work that Jason Dillon did, Leo Simon worked all night
> tonight on code changes to MoinMoin. It appears he's finished. The
> Geronino and General Wikis need updating (the code), but the new Incubator
> Wiki looks right.
Thanks guys, really appreciated :-)
I've already started using it, and the changes are now sent to
cvs@incubator.apache.org.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
> Wiki setup and JIRA.
On top of all the work that Jason Dillon did, Leo Simon worked all night
tonight on code changes to MoinMoin. It appears he's finished. The
Geronino and General Wikis need updating (the code), but the new Incubator
Wiki looks right. We should now be able to create Wikis in the farm fairly
easily.
JIRA is in the hands of Jeff Turner. As far as I know, the delay is all
related to data migration capabilities.
--- Noel
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 23:39, B. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > Or if it is an absolute requirement that we have the boxes then why
> > doesn't each member pitch in a 100 bucks and we'll buy some machines
> > instead of waiting for the tooth fairy to drop them in our lap. I'll
> > donate a 100 bucks.
>
> We're not waiting for the tooth fairy to drop hardware in our laps--the
> fundraising committee has already informed infrastructure that once it
> decides what it needs in the way of hardware, it should let us know the
> spec and we'll get the boxes donated from somewhere. The ASF needs to
> use cash for things that we can't get donated like monthly colo
> ($1500ish) and possible legal defense (could be anything).
So realistically no one would ever be able to answer the question: "When
would we going to get a server so we can generate sites."
I only say at the sheer frustration of watching it take an eon to get a
Wiki setup and JIRA. And that I will be further frustrated in the fact
that I can't generate a site because I'm waiting for two committees to
reach a decisions.
> However, if you want to donate cash (tax deductable--at least for US
> citizens), you can do so very easily via PayPal:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html
Absolutely I will put my money where my mouth is. 100 bucks just came
your way.
> -Fitz
>
> --
> Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fi...@red-bean.com> http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/
>
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Generated sites
Posted by "B. W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org> writes:
> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 19:51, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Cc'ing Stefano. I believe that part of it is happening in lenya land, but
> > it terms of a build server, obviously it will need to be build tool agnosti
> c
> > so that maven, anakia, and other tools can be be equally well used to deplo
> y
> > sites. The donation of some 1U and/or 2U servers would help.
>
> Isn't the requirement really a reliable way to restore the site? Why do
> we need to buy massive servers? Why don't we employ our skills and the
> multiple machines we have connected to the net. Take the Maven site for
> example: a simple list of people who are willing to enlist their
> machines for builds. Use something like damage control on the machine
> where the sites are hosted and if a new site needs to be generated have
> the hub request from the enlisted machines to build and upload the site.
> The first one to respond gets the job.
>
> Or if it is an absolute requirement that we have the boxes then why
> doesn't each member pitch in a 100 bucks and we'll buy some machines
> instead of waiting for the tooth fairy to drop them in our lap. I'll
> donate a 100 bucks.
We're not waiting for the tooth fairy to drop hardware in our laps--the
fundraising committee has already informed infrastructure that once it
decides what it needs in the way of hardware, it should let us know the
spec and we'll get the boxes donated from somewhere. The ASF needs to
use cash for things that we can't get donated like monthly colo
($1500ish) and possible legal defense (could be anything).
However, if you want to donate cash (tax deductable--at least for US
citizens), you can do so very easily via PayPal:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html
-Fitz
--
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 19:51, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Cc'ing Stefano. I believe that part of it is happening in lenya land, but
> it terms of a build server, obviously it will need to be build tool agnostic
> so that maven, anakia, and other tools can be be equally well used to deploy
> sites. The donation of some 1U and/or 2U servers would help.
Isn't the requirement really a reliable way to restore the site? Why do
we need to buy massive servers? Why don't we employ our skills and the
multiple machines we have connected to the net. Take the Maven site for
example: a simple list of people who are willing to enlist their
machines for builds. Use something like damage control on the machine
where the sites are hosted and if a new site needs to be generated have
the hub request from the enlisted machines to build and upload the site.
The first one to respond gets the job.
Or if it is an absolute requirement that we have the boxes then why
doesn't each member pitch in a 100 bucks and we'll buy some machines
instead of waiting for the tooth fairy to drop them in our lap. I'll
donate a 100 bucks.
> Perhaps some of the discussion should occur on another infrastructure
> related list.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > But this really is an infrastructure issue, since that is from where the
> > request comes. There are people, like Stefano, working to change the
> > site publication system. I'm sure that your participation would be
> > welcomed.
> Where is this 'work' happening?
> As someone vehemently opposed to checking in generated content, I'd like
> to be involved.
I don't know of anyone who thinks that checking in generated content is the
best possible solution. Jason was just discussing this situation with
Sander in detail on #asfinfra, and I believe that Jason has a better
appreciation for the issue than he did 30 minutes ago. He's going to
continue the discussion on the infrastructure list, which is where this
really belongs.
Cc'ing Stefano. I believe that part of it is happening in lenya land, but
it terms of a build server, obviously it will need to be build tool agnostic
so that maven, anakia, and other tools can be be equally well used to deploy
sites. The donation of some 1U and/or 2U servers would help.
Perhaps some of the discussion should occur on another infrastructure
related list.
--- Noel
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote on 25/11/2003 10:30:16 AM:
> > Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
>
> Because that is what infrastructure has asked. The rest of your points
are
> all perfectly valid. My best understanding is summarized here:
>
>
>
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.a
> pache.org&msgNo=5207
>
> But this really is an infrastructure issue, since that is from where the
> request comes. There are people, like Stefano, working to change the
site
> publication system. I'm sure that your participation would be welcomed.
Where is this 'work' happening?
As someone vehemently opposed to checking in generated content, I'd like
to be involved.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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RE: Generated sites
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Why are sites being forced to check in generated sites?
Because that is what infrastructure has asked. The rest of your points are
all perfectly valid. My best understanding is summarized here:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=geronimo-dev@incubator.a
pache.org&msgNo=5207
But this really is an infrastructure issue, since that is from where the
request comes. There are people, like Stefano, working to change the site
publication system. I'm sure that your participation would be welcomed.
-- Noel
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