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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by gu...@stinky.com on 2001/07/20 04:08:05 UTC
[TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
The build files for tc4 refer to jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar.
However, the regexp project currently builds a file called
"jakarta-regexp-1.3-dev.jar". The jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar is nowhere
to be found, so the build breaks for someone (like me) following the
instructions for a clean checkout-and-build.
To forestall this sort of thing from happening in the future, let's
just check a binary jar file into jakarta-tomcat-4.0 as
jakarta-tomcat-4.0/lib/jakarta-regexp.jar
That way our build will work even if jakarta-regexp changes the name
of their jar, or breaks the interfaces, or whatever. Plus, if they do
rev their release, and we want to incorporate it, we can do it by
checking in their new jar as our old name, and then we don't even have
to change the build files.
I've made the changes locally... Tell me if I shouldn't check it in.
- Alex
P.S. I'd like to propose that jakarta-regexp project name all their
jars jakarta-regexp.jar no matter what version they are. This doesn't
affect the decision here.
--
Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
jGuru - Java News and FAQs http://www.jguru.com/alex/
Creator of Gamelan http://www.gamelan.com/
Founder of Purple Technology http://www.purpletech.com/
Curator of Stinky Art Collective http://www.stinky.com/
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 guru@stinky.com wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:58:21PM -0700, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 guru@stinky.com wrote:
> >
> > > Do you have a position on including a jakarta-regexp.jar (or a
> > > jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar or a jakarta-regexp-1.3-dev.jar) directly in
> > > jakarta-tomcat-4.0/lib so we can build it without synching and
> > > building jakarta-regexp?
> >
> > I'm positive Jon will be +1 for this :-), but I'm very -1 for reasons that
> > have been discussed at length on this and other lists in the past.
> > Storing JAR files is evil, because it creates dependencies on those
> > particular versions of the JAR files and you cannot reliably recreate a
> > release purely from sources.
>
> The dependencies are already there, and always will be. The only
> difference is that at present, the actual jars can slip out from under
> you at any time (which actually just happened to me -- while you
> weren't looking, jakarta-regexp changed the name of their jar file
> which broke your build).
>
Having seen *way* too many people get burned by loading binaries into CVS
(usually caused by API changes in the projects you depend on, plus the
resultant inability to reliably recreate an old version from sources), I'm
unalterably opposed to putting JAR files into CVS except in extreme
circumstances (i.e. sealing violations).
People who have known me in open source projects for a while will quickly
realize how unusual that position is for me -- about most things I'm
much more easygoing. But I will not willingly participate in any project
that uses checked in JARs as a standard practice. I've gotten (and seen
on others) too many scars from that behavior to find it acceptable.
Craig
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by gu...@stinky.com.
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:58:21PM -0700, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 guru@stinky.com wrote:
>
> > Do you have a position on including a jakarta-regexp.jar (or a
> > jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar or a jakarta-regexp-1.3-dev.jar) directly in
> > jakarta-tomcat-4.0/lib so we can build it without synching and
> > building jakarta-regexp?
>
> I'm positive Jon will be +1 for this :-), but I'm very -1 for reasons that
> have been discussed at length on this and other lists in the past.
> Storing JAR files is evil, because it creates dependencies on those
> particular versions of the JAR files and you cannot reliably recreate a
> release purely from sources.
The dependencies are already there, and always will be. The only
difference is that at present, the actual jars can slip out from under
you at any time (which actually just happened to me -- while you
weren't looking, jakarta-regexp changed the name of their jar file
which broke your build).
As for building from "pure" source, that argument is a lot less
compelling when your object code is platform-independent Java. Sure,
it made sense not to depend on statically linked OS-specific object
code, but I can't think of a good reason not to depend on a JAR. It's
no worse than depending on a GIF.
> > Likewise for servlet.jar / jakarta-servletapi-4.
> >
> > Note that the project already contains an ant.jar and a jaxp.jar and
> > crimson.jar, and that works just fine :-)
> >
>
> Tomcat 4 doesn't have an ant.jar.
My mistake.
> And the only reason it has jaxp.jar and
> crimson.jar is because the stupid actual release has sealed JARs, which
> *totally* screws up class loading. As soon as there's a JAXP release that
> removes this restriction, these files are gone.
And as soon as someone screws up JAXP again, it'll break again, and
require a bugfix release of the *source* of Catalina just to allow it
to build.
Or what about the developer who's installed an incompatible JAXP
wasting his time and the list's bandwidth when it could have been
averted by shipping the version of JAXP on which Catalina is
dependent... (That's until JAXP is "core" and stable and works, none
of which are actually true yet, AFAIK.)
> > > The problem you are having can be easily resolved by simply editing your
> > > local jakarta-turbine-4.0/build.properties or your
> > > ${user.home}/build.properties
> >
> > Yeah, mine and everyone else's in the world who wants to build it.
> > One less step is one less step that can go wrong.
>
> Actually, Jon's suggestion is the right answer. Developers working from
> source should have *absolute* control over which versions of dependent
> software they build with.
My solution doesn't prevent you from overriding the checked-in version
with one of your own. I was thinking more that out of the box, it
would work, but that if you have your own jar you can edit
build.properties and retain *absolute* control. But until you need to
do that, there's less to set up before running "build." That is...
> > One less step is one less step that can go wrong.
:-)
--
Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
jGuru - Java News and FAQs http://www.jguru.com/alex/
Creator of Gamelan http://www.gamelan.com/
Founder of Purple Technology http://www.purpletech.com/
Curator of Stinky Art Collective http://www.stinky.com/
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> on 7/19/01 10:58 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I'm positive Jon will be +1 for this :-), but I'm very -1 for reasons that
> > have been discussed at length on this and other lists in the past.
> > Storing JAR files is evil, because it creates dependencies on those
> > particular versions of the JAR files and you cannot reliably recreate a
> > release purely from sources.
>
> In the case of Catalina, I'm against it since you have setup a system of
> defining things in the build.properties file and requiring people to already
> download a ton of other stuff anyway.
>
> The next logical step is to use Geir's JJAR (look in the
> jakarta-commons-sandbox) to automatically download the right .jar files for
> you.
>
Yep.
> > Actually, Jon's suggestion is the right answer.
> >
> > Craig McClanahan
>
> I'm going to print that quote (taken entirely out of context) out and frame
> it next to my JSP Sucks article. :-)
>
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/~jon/jdj_julycover.jpg>
>
That's why I even autographed it for you :-)
> -jon
>
Craig
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> The next logical step is to use Geir's JJAR (look in the
> jakarta-commons-sandbox) to automatically download the right .jar files for
> you.
>
> > Actually, Jon's suggestion is the right answer.
> >
> > Craig McClanahan
>
> I'm going to print that quote (taken entirely out of context) out and frame
> it next to my JSP Sucks article. :-)
>
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/~jon/jdj_julycover.jpg>
>
> -jon
>
> --
> If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
> your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>
>
>
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/19/01 10:58 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'm positive Jon will be +1 for this :-), but I'm very -1 for reasons that
> have been discussed at length on this and other lists in the past.
> Storing JAR files is evil, because it creates dependencies on those
> particular versions of the JAR files and you cannot reliably recreate a
> release purely from sources.
In the case of Catalina, I'm against it since you have setup a system of
defining things in the build.properties file and requiring people to already
download a ton of other stuff anyway.
The next logical step is to use Geir's JJAR (look in the
jakarta-commons-sandbox) to automatically download the right .jar files for
you.
> Actually, Jon's suggestion is the right answer.
>
> Craig McClanahan
I'm going to print that quote (taken entirely out of context) out and frame
it next to my JSP Sucks article. :-)
<http://jakarta.apache.org/~jon/jdj_julycover.jpg>
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 guru@stinky.com wrote:
>
> Do you have a position on including a jakarta-regexp.jar (or a
> jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar or a jakarta-regexp-1.3-dev.jar) directly in
> jakarta-tomcat-4.0/lib so we can build it without synching and
> building jakarta-regexp?
>
I'm positive Jon will be +1 for this :-), but I'm very -1 for reasons that
have been discussed at length on this and other lists in the past.
Storing JAR files is evil, because it creates dependencies on those
particular versions of the JAR files and you cannot reliably recreate a
release purely from sources.
Once I get the beta 6 release out (the release notes will tell you how
busy we've been :-), I will focus on cleaning up the build processes and
docs for jakarta-tomcat-4.0 and jakarta-servletapi-4, and initiating
conversations about what to do with jakarta-tomcat-connectors code that is
included in a Tomcat release.
> Likewise for servlet.jar / jakarta-servletapi-4.
>
> Note that the project already contains an ant.jar and a jaxp.jar and
> crimson.jar, and that works just fine :-)
>
Tomcat 4 doesn't have an ant.jar. And the only reason it has jaxp.jar and
crimson.jar is because the stupid actual release has sealed JARs, which
*totally* screws up class loading. As soon as there's a JAXP release that
removes this restriction, these files are gone.
> > The problem you are having can be easily resolved by simply editing your
> > local jakarta-turbine-4.0/build.properties or your
> > ${user.home}/build.properties
>
> Yeah, mine and everyone else's in the world who wants to build it.
> One less step is one less step that can go wrong.
>
Actually, Jon's suggestion is the right answer. Developers working from
source should have *absolute* control over which versions of dependent
software they build with.
> --
> Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
Craig McClanahan
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by gu...@stinky.com.
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:35:43PM -0700, Jon Stevens wrote:
> on 7/19/01 7:08 PM, "guru@stinky.com" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
>
> > P.S. I'd like to propose that jakarta-regexp project name all their
> > jars jakarta-regexp.jar no matter what version they are. This doesn't
> > affect the decision here.
>
> -1
>
> Until we have a CJAN, I like version numbers on jar files.
OK, I see your point -- though I personally prefer the version number
to be stored elsewhere than the name of the file, so revving the
version doesn't break all scripts that refer to it. (Imagine if
installing perl 5 made all scripts that start with #!/usr/bin/perl
break until they were individually changed to #/usr/bin/perl5 (and I
mean after perl 5 was pronounced stable).)
Do you have a position on including a jakarta-regexp.jar (or a
jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar or a jakarta-regexp-1.3-dev.jar) directly in
jakarta-tomcat-4.0/lib so we can build it without synching and
building jakarta-regexp?
Likewise for servlet.jar / jakarta-servletapi-4.
Note that the project already contains an ant.jar and a jaxp.jar and
crimson.jar, and that works just fine :-)
> The problem you are having can be easily resolved by simply editing your
> local jakarta-turbine-4.0/build.properties or your
> ${user.home}/build.properties
Yeah, mine and everyone else's in the world who wants to build it.
One less step is one less step that can go wrong.
--
Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
jGuru - Java News and FAQs http://www.jguru.com/alex/
Creator of Gamelan http://www.gamelan.com/
Founder of Purple Technology http://www.purpletech.com/
Curator of Stinky Art Collective http://www.stinky.com/
Re: [TC4] jakarta-regexp.jar
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/19/01 7:08 PM, "guru@stinky.com" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
> P.S. I'd like to propose that jakarta-regexp project name all their
> jars jakarta-regexp.jar no matter what version they are. This doesn't
> affect the decision here.
-1
Until we have a CJAN, I like version numbers on jar files.
The problem you are having can be easily resolved by simply editing your
local jakarta-turbine-4.0/build.properties or your
${user.home}/build.properties
-jon