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Posted to users@openjpa.apache.org by co...@windstream.net on 2008/03/07 20:28:40 UTC

Newly null fields not being persisted?

All,

I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But, here are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:

User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the same page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one of the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that was nulled out is not updated.

Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first update that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field that was nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the underlying table).

Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it (most likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?

Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?

Cheers!
Randy


Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?

Posted by Tedman Leung <te...@sfu.ca>.
I reported this as a bug earlier and I never heard back, it still occurs. 
A more detiled explanation of what I found is as follows  :

- If you have a new entity with null fields, the fields will save as null.

- If you have an entity which is attached, you can nullify fields as long 
as it persists itself. i.e. without you calling the merge method.

- If you retrieve an entity and detach it, then null a field, then 
reattach it (with merge), it will not nullify the field.


if anyone knows the code well enough to fix it or point me to the area 
where the logic of this is done that would be good.



On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 01:28:40PM -0600, cobbra@windstream.net wrote:
> All,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But, here are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:
> 
> User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the same page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one of the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that was nulled out is not updated.
> 
> Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first update that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field that was nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the underlying table).
> 
> Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it (most likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?
> 
> Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?
> 
> Cheers!
> Randy
> 

-- 
                                                           Ted Leung
                                                           tedman@sfu.ca

You know things are getting a little fishy when you're commenting out 
comments.

Re: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?

Posted by Michael Dick <mi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jackson,

Besides the extra field being stored in your entities classes when they're
serialized the only other side effects are a couple of additional methods
being added to the entity when it is enhanced. As a result the serialized
entity will be a little "heavier" than it used to be.

To determine the root cause of the problem one would have to look at how the
application handles the entities - how they're passed from one component to
another. You mentioned that you're only using local interfaces on your EJBs
so as I understand it the entities shouldn't be serialized. I'm not an EJB
container expert though and you might be better served to check with
WebSphere support (the EJB team probably doesn't monitor this mailing list).


Sorry I can't help with the local question, but I hope you at least have a
work around.

-Mike

On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 8:19 AM, jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Mike,
>
> After setting the DetachStateField property, it does solve the issue. I am
> a
> little bit concerned about this fix without knowing the root cause? does
> this property have any side impact?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
> Michael Dick wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jackson12,
> >
> > I don't think the entities would be serialized if they're just being
> > passed
> > through the local interfaces on your beans. Have you tried setting the
> > DetachStateField property, and verified that it does resolve the issue?
> > You
> > might be hitting a different scenario which has the same symptom.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:09 PM, jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Mike,
> >>
> >> We run into this issue. but in our case, we only use local EJBs, why
> the
> >> entities get serialized and deserialized?
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >>
> >> mikedd wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi
> >> >
> >> > I've seen this happen when an entity is serialized and deserialized.
> >> > During
> >> > the serialization process the State of the entity was lost. So when
> the
> >> > entity was reattached OpenJPA couldn't differentiate between an
> >> unloaded
> >> > field and one that was intentionally set to null.
> >> >
> >> > To resolve the problem you can add the following property to
> >> > persistence.xml
> >> > :
> >> >
> >> > <property name="openjpa.DetachState"
> >> >                 value="fgs(DetachedStateField=true)" />
> >> >
> >> > The real key here is the DetachedStateField=true part which instructs
> >> > OpenJPA to save the State of the entity when it is serialized and
> >> > deserialized.
> >> >
> >> > This option needs to be in your persistence.xml when the entities are
> >> > enhanced. If you use static enhancement via the PCEnhancer tool
> you'll
> >> > have
> >> > to re-run the tool after updating persistence.xml. If you don't use
> >> static
> >> > enhancement the container will enhance your entities for you - so
> >> you'll
> >> > just need to redeploy.
> >> >
> >> > Hope this helps,
> >> > -Mike
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:28 PM, <co...@windstream.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes, that's exactly what I am seeing, and perhaps I didn't give
> enough
> >> >> detail...
> >> >>
> >> >> In my case, the EJB service fetches the entity, it gets detached
> when
> >> it
> >> >> moves from the EJB container to the web tier, user updates the
> entity,
> >> >> pass
> >> >> it back to the service where it's "merged"... the fields that were
> >> nulled
> >> >> are not getting persisted.  It has to do with detaching the entity
> >> then
> >> >> re-attaching it again.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've found a HACK (emphasis on HACK) to solve it in the interim..  I
> >> >> basically take the detached entity, re-fetch the managed one, copy
> >> >> properties from the detached to the managed entity, then let the
> >> managed
> >> >> entity persist normally.  But it gets tedious when you're dealing
> with
> >> >> entities with 30-40 attributes and you can't use the Commons
> >> >> copyProperties
> >> >> because of version columns, etc. (fields that are restricted).
> >> >>
> >> >> If there is a better solution, I'd be more than happy to entertain
> it!
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks!
> >> >> Randy
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From: Tedman Leung <te...@sfu.ca>
> >> >> > Date: 2008/03/07 Fri PM 01:34:32 CST
> >> >> > To: users@openjpa.apache.org
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I reported this as a bug earlier and I never heard back, it still
> >> >> occurs.
> >> >> > A more detiled explanation of what I found is as follows  :
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - If you have a new entity with null fields, the fields will save
> as
> >> >> null.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - If you have an entity which is attached, you can nullify fields
> as
> >> >> long
> >> >> > as it persists itself. i.e. without you calling the merge method.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - If you retrieve an entity and detach it, then null a field, then
> >> >> > reattach it (with merge), it will not nullify the field.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > if anyone knows the code well enough to fix it or point me to the
> >> area
> >> >> > where the logic of this is done that would be good.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 01:28:40PM -0600,
> >> cobbra@windstream.netwrote:
> >> >> > > All,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But,
> >> here
> >> >> are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA
> >> >> entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the
> >> same
> >> >> page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one
> >> of
> >> >> the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that
> >> was
> >> >> nulled out is not updated.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first
> >> update
> >> >> that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field
> >> that
> >> >> was
> >> >> nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the
> >> underlying
> >> >> table).
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it
> >> >> (most
> >> >> likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Cheers!
> >> >> > > Randy
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> >                                                            Ted
> Leung
> >> >> >
> >> >> tedman@sfu.ca
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You know things are getting a little fishy when you're commenting
> >> out
> >> >> > comments.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >>
> http://www.nabble.com/Newly-null-fields-not-being-persisted--tp15904016p15908495.html
> >> Sent from the OpenJPA Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Newly-null-fields-not-being-persisted--tp15904016p15976501.html
> Sent from the OpenJPA Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

Re: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?

Posted by jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com>.
Mike,

After setting the DetachStateField property, it does solve the issue. I am a
little bit concerned about this fix without knowing the root cause? does
this property have any side impact?

thanks




Michael Dick wrote:
> 
> Hi Jackson12,
> 
> I don't think the entities would be serialized if they're just being
> passed
> through the local interfaces on your beans. Have you tried setting the
> DetachStateField property, and verified that it does resolve the issue?
> You
> might be hitting a different scenario which has the same symptom.
> 
> -Mike
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:09 PM, jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> We run into this issue. but in our case, we only use local EJBs, why the
>> entities get serialized and deserialized?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>>
>> mikedd wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > I've seen this happen when an entity is serialized and deserialized.
>> > During
>> > the serialization process the State of the entity was lost. So when the
>> > entity was reattached OpenJPA couldn't differentiate between an
>> unloaded
>> > field and one that was intentionally set to null.
>> >
>> > To resolve the problem you can add the following property to
>> > persistence.xml
>> > :
>> >
>> > <property name="openjpa.DetachState"
>> >                 value="fgs(DetachedStateField=true)" />
>> >
>> > The real key here is the DetachedStateField=true part which instructs
>> > OpenJPA to save the State of the entity when it is serialized and
>> > deserialized.
>> >
>> > This option needs to be in your persistence.xml when the entities are
>> > enhanced. If you use static enhancement via the PCEnhancer tool you'll
>> > have
>> > to re-run the tool after updating persistence.xml. If you don't use
>> static
>> > enhancement the container will enhance your entities for you - so
>> you'll
>> > just need to redeploy.
>> >
>> > Hope this helps,
>> > -Mike
>> >
>> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:28 PM, <co...@windstream.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yes, that's exactly what I am seeing, and perhaps I didn't give enough
>> >> detail...
>> >>
>> >> In my case, the EJB service fetches the entity, it gets detached when
>> it
>> >> moves from the EJB container to the web tier, user updates the entity,
>> >> pass
>> >> it back to the service where it's "merged"... the fields that were
>> nulled
>> >> are not getting persisted.  It has to do with detaching the entity
>> then
>> >> re-attaching it again.
>> >>
>> >> I've found a HACK (emphasis on HACK) to solve it in the interim..  I
>> >> basically take the detached entity, re-fetch the managed one, copy
>> >> properties from the detached to the managed entity, then let the
>> managed
>> >> entity persist normally.  But it gets tedious when you're dealing with
>> >> entities with 30-40 attributes and you can't use the Commons
>> >> copyProperties
>> >> because of version columns, etc. (fields that are restricted).
>> >>
>> >> If there is a better solution, I'd be more than happy to entertain it!
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >> Randy
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Tedman Leung <te...@sfu.ca>
>> >> > Date: 2008/03/07 Fri PM 01:34:32 CST
>> >> > To: users@openjpa.apache.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?
>> >> >
>> >> > I reported this as a bug earlier and I never heard back, it still
>> >> occurs.
>> >> > A more detiled explanation of what I found is as follows  :
>> >> >
>> >> > - If you have a new entity with null fields, the fields will save as
>> >> null.
>> >> >
>> >> > - If you have an entity which is attached, you can nullify fields as
>> >> long
>> >> > as it persists itself. i.e. without you calling the merge method.
>> >> >
>> >> > - If you retrieve an entity and detach it, then null a field, then
>> >> > reattach it (with merge), it will not nullify the field.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > if anyone knows the code well enough to fix it or point me to the
>> area
>> >> > where the logic of this is done that would be good.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 01:28:40PM -0600,
>> cobbra@windstream.netwrote:
>> >> > > All,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But,
>> here
>> >> are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA
>> >> entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the
>> same
>> >> page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one
>> of
>> >> the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that
>> was
>> >> nulled out is not updated.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first
>> update
>> >> that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field
>> that
>> >> was
>> >> nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the
>> underlying
>> >> table).
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it
>> >> (most
>> >> likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Cheers!
>> >> > > Randy
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >                                                            Ted Leung
>> >> >
>> >> tedman@sfu.ca
>> >> >
>> >> > You know things are getting a little fishy when you're commenting
>> out
>> >> > comments.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Newly-null-fields-not-being-persisted--tp15904016p15908495.html
>> Sent from the OpenJPA Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Newly-null-fields-not-being-persisted--tp15904016p15976501.html
Sent from the OpenJPA Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


Re: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?

Posted by Michael Dick <mi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jackson12,

I don't think the entities would be serialized if they're just being passed
through the local interfaces on your beans. Have you tried setting the
DetachStateField property, and verified that it does resolve the issue? You
might be hitting a different scenario which has the same symptom.

-Mike


On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:09 PM, jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Mike,
>
> We run into this issue. but in our case, we only use local EJBs, why the
> entities get serialized and deserialized?
>
> thanks
>
>
> mikedd wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I've seen this happen when an entity is serialized and deserialized.
> > During
> > the serialization process the State of the entity was lost. So when the
> > entity was reattached OpenJPA couldn't differentiate between an unloaded
> > field and one that was intentionally set to null.
> >
> > To resolve the problem you can add the following property to
> > persistence.xml
> > :
> >
> > <property name="openjpa.DetachState"
> >                 value="fgs(DetachedStateField=true)" />
> >
> > The real key here is the DetachedStateField=true part which instructs
> > OpenJPA to save the State of the entity when it is serialized and
> > deserialized.
> >
> > This option needs to be in your persistence.xml when the entities are
> > enhanced. If you use static enhancement via the PCEnhancer tool you'll
> > have
> > to re-run the tool after updating persistence.xml. If you don't use
> static
> > enhancement the container will enhance your entities for you - so you'll
> > just need to redeploy.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > -Mike
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:28 PM, <co...@windstream.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, that's exactly what I am seeing, and perhaps I didn't give enough
> >> detail...
> >>
> >> In my case, the EJB service fetches the entity, it gets detached when
> it
> >> moves from the EJB container to the web tier, user updates the entity,
> >> pass
> >> it back to the service where it's "merged"... the fields that were
> nulled
> >> are not getting persisted.  It has to do with detaching the entity then
> >> re-attaching it again.
> >>
> >> I've found a HACK (emphasis on HACK) to solve it in the interim..  I
> >> basically take the detached entity, re-fetch the managed one, copy
> >> properties from the detached to the managed entity, then let the
> managed
> >> entity persist normally.  But it gets tedious when you're dealing with
> >> entities with 30-40 attributes and you can't use the Commons
> >> copyProperties
> >> because of version columns, etc. (fields that are restricted).
> >>
> >> If there is a better solution, I'd be more than happy to entertain it!
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Randy
> >> >
> >> > From: Tedman Leung <te...@sfu.ca>
> >> > Date: 2008/03/07 Fri PM 01:34:32 CST
> >> > To: users@openjpa.apache.org
> >> > Subject: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?
> >> >
> >> > I reported this as a bug earlier and I never heard back, it still
> >> occurs.
> >> > A more detiled explanation of what I found is as follows  :
> >> >
> >> > - If you have a new entity with null fields, the fields will save as
> >> null.
> >> >
> >> > - If you have an entity which is attached, you can nullify fields as
> >> long
> >> > as it persists itself. i.e. without you calling the merge method.
> >> >
> >> > - If you retrieve an entity and detach it, then null a field, then
> >> > reattach it (with merge), it will not nullify the field.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > if anyone knows the code well enough to fix it or point me to the
> area
> >> > where the logic of this is done that would be good.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 01:28:40PM -0600, cobbra@windstream.netwrote:
> >> > > All,
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But, here
> >> are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:
> >> > >
> >> > > User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA
> >> entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the
> same
> >> page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one of
> >> the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that
> was
> >> nulled out is not updated.
> >> > >
> >> > > Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first update
> >> that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field that
> >> was
> >> nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the
> underlying
> >> table).
> >> > >
> >> > > Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it
> >> (most
> >> likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?
> >> > >
> >> > > Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers!
> >> > > Randy
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >                                                            Ted Leung
> >> >
> >> tedman@sfu.ca
> >> >
> >> > You know things are getting a little fishy when you're commenting out
> >> > comments.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Newly-null-fields-not-being-persisted--tp15904016p15908495.html
> Sent from the OpenJPA Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

Re: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?

Posted by jackson12 <ke...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Mike,

We run into this issue. but in our case, we only use local EJBs, why the
entities get serialized and deserialized?

thanks


mikedd wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I've seen this happen when an entity is serialized and deserialized.
> During
> the serialization process the State of the entity was lost. So when the
> entity was reattached OpenJPA couldn't differentiate between an unloaded
> field and one that was intentionally set to null.
> 
> To resolve the problem you can add the following property to
> persistence.xml
> :
> 
> <property name="openjpa.DetachState"
>                 value="fgs(DetachedStateField=true)" />
> 
> The real key here is the DetachedStateField=true part which instructs
> OpenJPA to save the State of the entity when it is serialized and
> deserialized.
> 
> This option needs to be in your persistence.xml when the entities are
> enhanced. If you use static enhancement via the PCEnhancer tool you'll
> have
> to re-run the tool after updating persistence.xml. If you don't use static
> enhancement the container will enhance your entities for you - so you'll
> just need to redeploy.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> -Mike
> 
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:28 PM, <co...@windstream.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, that's exactly what I am seeing, and perhaps I didn't give enough
>> detail...
>>
>> In my case, the EJB service fetches the entity, it gets detached when it
>> moves from the EJB container to the web tier, user updates the entity,
>> pass
>> it back to the service where it's "merged"... the fields that were nulled
>> are not getting persisted.  It has to do with detaching the entity then
>> re-attaching it again.
>>
>> I've found a HACK (emphasis on HACK) to solve it in the interim..  I
>> basically take the detached entity, re-fetch the managed one, copy
>> properties from the detached to the managed entity, then let the managed
>> entity persist normally.  But it gets tedious when you're dealing with
>> entities with 30-40 attributes and you can't use the Commons
>> copyProperties
>> because of version columns, etc. (fields that are restricted).
>>
>> If there is a better solution, I'd be more than happy to entertain it!
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Randy
>> >
>> > From: Tedman Leung <te...@sfu.ca>
>> > Date: 2008/03/07 Fri PM 01:34:32 CST
>> > To: users@openjpa.apache.org
>> > Subject: Re: Newly null fields not being persisted?
>> >
>> > I reported this as a bug earlier and I never heard back, it still
>> occurs.
>> > A more detiled explanation of what I found is as follows  :
>> >
>> > - If you have a new entity with null fields, the fields will save as
>> null.
>> >
>> > - If you have an entity which is attached, you can nullify fields as
>> long
>> > as it persists itself. i.e. without you calling the merge method.
>> >
>> > - If you retrieve an entity and detach it, then null a field, then
>> > reattach it (with merge), it will not nullify the field.
>> >
>> >
>> > if anyone knows the code well enough to fix it or point me to the area
>> > where the logic of this is done that would be good.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 01:28:40PM -0600, cobbra@windstream.net wrote:
>> > > All,
>> > >
>> > > I'm not sure if this is a problem in MY code or OpenJPA.  But, here
>> are the symptoms in WAS w/ EJB Feature pack:
>> > >
>> > > User enters data into a form that is backed by a managed OpenJPA
>> entity.  Entity gets persisted successfully.  User goes back to the same
>> page and nullifies one of the fields (i.e., deletes a value from one of
>> the fields in the form).  Entity gets persisted, but, the field that was
>> nulled out is not updated.
>> > >
>> > > Looking at the generated SQL in the WAS log, I see the first update
>> that added the data, but in the second update statement, the field that
>> was
>> nulled is not included in the update (thus leaving data in the underlying
>> table).
>> > >
>> > > Is there a setting in OpenJPA that turns this off?  Or, could it
>> (most
>> likely) be a problem in my code somewhere?
>> > >
>> > > Any suggestions on how I can track this down and eliminate it?
>> > >
>> > > Cheers!
>> > > Randy
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> >                                                            Ted Leung
>> >                                                           
>> tedman@sfu.ca
>> >
>> > You know things are getting a little fishy when you're commenting out
>> > comments.
>> >
>>
>>
> 
> 

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