Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

J Aaron Farr wrote:
> FYI:
> 
>    I think someone wanted this to get forwarded to the Avalon 'general' mailing
> list, but since that doesn't exist, I thought I'd send it to our dev list. 
> 
> For the Avaloners:
> 
> There's been a bit of discussion lately on general@jakarta about what to do with
> Hivemind seeing that it has started to outgrow its current location in
> commons-sandbox.  Some have suggested that it fits better over here in Avalon
> (as a sub-project) than in Jakarta.  In some respects, I agree.  I think its a
> little light to be its own top-level project (hivemind.apache.org) and if you
> look at the jakarta charters vs avalon charters, Hivemind falls more on the
> Avalon side of things.  Not sure what Howards thoughts are on that.


Hmm.  The thing is if it is "chucked over here", the whole Hivemind approach
will be factored toward the way we are doing things.  We only have so many
developers, and supporting something like this would be kind of a strain on our
resources.

Have the IP issues been sorted out with this package?  There are a whole host
of questions that we would need to sort out, PMC to PMC.  In the interest of
fairness, I think we should seriously talk about that in that capacity.  We
would, of course, include Howard in on the conversation.

> 
> 
> --- Danny Angus <Da...@slc.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>Howard wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>3) Chuck it over to Avalon
>>
>>>I've looked to see how we could graft HiveMind into Avalon and vice-versa,
>>>but they are really quite different beasts.  The type-1 > vs. type-2/type-3
>>>split is intrinsic and difficult to reconcile.  HiveMind's concept of a
>>>module doesn't map so easily into the  Avalon space, and HiveMind's
>>>free-for-all approach doesn't jive with Avalon's dogmatic security model
>>>(including its explicit application construction descriptor).
>>
>>I didn't mean to suggest that you should try to move avalon architecture
>>towards hivemind or vice versa,
>>but I did wonder if there would be support @avalon for an alternative
>>approach as an avalon sub-project.
>>
>>The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
>>by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
>>of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
>>If you see what I mean.
>>
>>Of course you went through this whole debate when we discussed whether we
>>needed Tapestry as an alternative to Struts, as equal members of Jakarta
>>neither approach can be seen to be in any way an "endorsed" or
>>"favourite". The same (IMO) would not be true for service frameworks if
>>Hivemind was a Jakarta project not an Avalon one. Hivemind would be seen by
>>some to be Jakarta's favoured solution.
>>
>>FWIW I'm certainly not going to oppose this, Hivemind seems to be a well
>>thought out proposal, but I don't want Jakarta to be accused of trying to
>>replace Avalon, and I guess that will mean involving Avalon folks in the
>>discussion.
>>
>>Imagine the reaction there would be if I proposed a "make" utility as a
>>Jakarta sub-project, and perhaps you'll get the thrust of my concern.
>>
>>d.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> ---
>   jaaron      <http://jadetower.org>
> 
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> 
> 



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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>Wouldn't it also mean that more resources was coming here?? And I don't
> 
> only
> 
>>>mean "Howard" (I assume the original author), but also the "user base"
> 
> of
> 
>>>which some will dig in...
> 
> 
>>The Avalon project has already seen a devided development
>>which really hurt us.  That is why we are trying to focus
>>on one way of doing things, and evolve that.
> 
> 
> ... "and evolve that."  Stephen, for example, has said that Merlin is
> designed to be not just a container, but a means for building containers.
> He has said that there are aspects of HiveMind that he likes, and would like
> to build into Merlin.  For that matter, there is possibly some code in
> Phoenix, e.g., JMX related, that could be moved over to Merlin.
> 
> So I get back to the question of whether there aren't good opportunities for
> collaboration and merger of the communities.


I believe that there are.  In another mail, I stated that in order for the
two communities to mesh, there has to be something done in both communities.
We have to make a conscious effort to educate each other on what design points
are different and why those choices were made.  During this education time,
we can't get defensive if someone disagrees with a pet concept/implementation.

So would it be in everyones best interest to evolve Merlin to support HiveMind
style components--at least as much as can be reasonably done?  I think so.


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RE: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

> > Wouldn't it also mean that more resources was coming here?? And I don't
only
> > mean "Howard" (I assume the original author), but also the "user base"
of
> > which some will dig in...

> The Avalon project has already seen a devided development
> which really hurt us.  That is why we are trying to focus
> on one way of doing things, and evolve that.

... "and evolve that."  Stephen, for example, has said that Merlin is
designed to be not just a container, but a means for building containers.
He has said that there are aspects of HiveMind that he likes, and would like
to build into Merlin.  For that matter, there is possibly some code in
Phoenix, e.g., JMX related, that could be moved over to Merlin.

So I get back to the question of whether there aren't good opportunities for
collaboration and merger of the communities.

	--- Noel


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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 November 2003 23:17, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hmm.  The thing is if it is "chucked over here", the whole Hivemind
>>approach will be factored toward the way we are doing things.  We only have
>>so many developers, and supporting something like this would be kind of a
>>strain on our resources.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it also mean that more resources was coming here?? And I don't only 
> mean "Howard" (I assume the original author), but also the "user base" of 
> which some will dig in...

Theorhetically.  The Avalon project has already seen a devided development
which really hurt us.  That is why we are trying to focus on one way of
doing things, and evolve that.


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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

On Wednesday 12 November 2003 23:17, Berin Loritsch wrote:

> Hmm.  The thing is if it is "chucked over here", the whole Hivemind
> approach will be factored toward the way we are doing things.  We only have
> so many developers, and supporting something like this would be kind of a
> strain on our resources.

Wouldn't it also mean that more resources was coming here?? And I don't only 
mean "Howard" (I assume the original author), but also the "user base" of 
which some will dig in...

Niclas

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