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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> on 2011/06/17 03:15:32 UTC
Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can
we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Hi all,
I should have asked questions one by one.
:)
As you know our binaries or packages or install sets & language packs
look like these
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install-wJRE_ja.exe
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_ja.exe
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_langpack_ja.exe
http://ftp-srv2.kddilabs.jp/office/openoffice/localized/ja/3.3.0/
Beautiful, aren't they? :)
Now can we, Apache OpenOffice.org incubator project, release OOo_3.4.0
install sets and language packs soon?
If yes, when will they be released?
If yes, but we have to meet requirements, what are they?
If no, why?, what are problems?
Thanks,
khirano
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Congratulations for OpenOffice.org incubator project!
>
> My first post to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org starts with some questions.
>
> First question, "Can we as an incubator project realease Apache
> OpenOffice.org X.X or OpenOffice.org 3.4 or whatever? Or are we going
> to release it soon?"
>
> I think "release soon" is one of the most important short term goals.
>
> I, as marketing project coordinator for OpenOffice.org Japanese
> Language Project, have accountability because, as I told when I
> introduced myself to the general@incubator.apache.org,
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3CBANLkTimvppnh=F1jwpHTzrW7p5LSbVbTAQ@mail.gmail.com%3E
>
> we have 4 projects such as marketing, quality assurance, translation
> and documentation projects, and these 4 projects have cooperated and
> worked so hard together to release stable quality OpenOffice.org
> Japanese and to promote OpenOffice.org in a number of ways that we
> have increased our user base.
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/JA/Marketing/OpenOffice.org_Deployments
>
> First I will have to explain "what happened to OpenOffice.org" to
> members of OpenOffice.org Japanese Project and many OpenOffice.org
> users in Japan.
>
> I am planning to post Japanese translation of the text of
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal to
> announce@ja.openoffice.org.
>
> I have translated it up to the secretive NKRS computer system part now.
> :)
> http://openoffice.org/projects/ja/lists/marketing/archive/2011-06/message/22
>
> Then the most important thing I have to tell them is "When new and
> stable OpenOffice.org Japanese will be released" or "It will not be
> released soon." If it is not be released soon, I have to tell them
> reasons why it will not be released soon.
>
> To tell them the proposal and the reasons in Japanese I would like to
> have a Japanese page on http://wiki.apache.org/.
>
> Second question, "Is there any rule, like wiki page naming, to put a
> non-English page on the Wiki?
>
> I would like to create a Japanese wiki page and to do the other works
> like translation, localization, marketing and more as a team, which
> maybe we can call "a language project."
>
> Third question, "Can we rationalize and formalize a language project?"
> If we can, then can we, OpenOffice.org incubator project, make a
> procedure to apply and accept a language project?
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>
--
Kazunari Hirano - Marketing Project Coordinator - OpenOffice.org
Japanese Language Project
http://ja.openoffice.org/
RE: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
This is an informal response. It is my thinking that the time difference is difficult. I offer this little bit to think about. I am not involved in the OpenOffice.org build and release process. This is my assessment as observer here:
(One by one is good).
1. I assume you are asking about the OOO-dev 3.4.0 Developer Snapshot now available from OpenOffice.org. How can this be advanced from that beta state to release candidate and official distribution? Next, how and when can _ja builds be available? These are the questions, yes?
2. There are difficulties. There is a journey:
3. Permission is required for incubator to make a release.
4. Before that, we must be able to build even OOO-dev 3.4.0 (or some limited version of it) from source code at Apache. And restore maintenance and testing process too.
5. Before or during that, we may have to find substitutions or replacements for parts that are not available or not acceptable to Apache.
5. Before that, we must obtain whatever source code and other artifacts that are available from Oracle.
I think OpenOffice.org experts will have better details.
Your questions are very important.
Other participants from OpenOffice.org share your concern and are working to find solution.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Kazunari Hirano [mailto:khirano@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 18:16
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Hi all,
I should have asked questions one by one.
:)
As you know our binaries or packages or install sets & language packs
look like these
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install-wJRE_ja.exe
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_ja.exe
OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_langpack_ja.exe
http://ftp-srv2.kddilabs.jp/office/openoffice/localized/ja/3.3.0/
Beautiful, aren't they? :)
Now can we, Apache OpenOffice.org incubator project, release OOo_3.4.0
install sets and language packs soon?
If yes, when will they be released?
If yes, but we have to meet requirements, what are they?
If no, why?, what are problems?
Thanks,
khirano
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Congratulations for OpenOffice.org incubator project!
>
> My first post to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org starts with some questions.
>
> First question, "Can we as an incubator project realease Apache
> OpenOffice.org X.X or OpenOffice.org 3.4 or whatever? Or are we going
> to release it soon?"
>
> I think "release soon" is one of the most important short term goals.
>
[ ... ]
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Eric,
Now I see what you are worried about :)
> So please, there is no urgency, and we must take care to not communicate
> badly.
No, never. :)
I just tell my colleagues an users the fact and the truth.
They have to be kept informed.
I have to be honest to them.
That's all.
:)
Thanks,
khirano
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Kazunari,
Le 17 juin 11 à 09:13, Kazunari Hirano a écrit :
> Hi Eric,
>
> I am the marketing project coordinator for OpenOffice.org Japanese
> Language Project, which has promoted OpenOffice.org in a number of
> ways in Japan and increased user base, individual users, business
> users, local government users in Japan.
I know, but the "Lead" system belongs to the past.
Now we have to rebuild everything.
> They are using OpenOffice.org
> 3.3.0 now. They are waiting for 3.4.0.
>
Is is possible to simply build and release it ? the code is
available, and those builds could be provideded as rc ? (if I'm not
wrong)
> I take accountability. I have to tell them about the new release
> and what happened to OpenOffice.org.
> That's why I needed an answer to the question about the new release.
>
> Greg Stein is a great Apache committer, I believe.
> http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html
> As I read his posts to this list, I trust him.
>
Sure I trust him too, but since LO and TDF have been created you are
on both sides, and I fear that what you want to communicate will
simply be catastrophic for the current OpenOffice.org effort.
So please, there is no urgency, and we must take care to not
communicate badly.
> Greg said, "I would be surprised if a release is made this year."
>
> This is a clear message.
> I trust his word.
> It means "It will not happen soon," and "We don't know when it will
> happen."
>
> Good to have the answer because I can answer my colleagues and users.
> :)
>
IMHO, the better is to not speculate about "when", but explain "what"
has to be done, and "how" instead ;-)
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Eric,
I am the marketing project coordinator for OpenOffice.org Japanese
Language Project, which has promoted OpenOffice.org in a number of
ways in Japan and increased user base, individual users, business
users, local government users in Japan. They are using OpenOffice.org
3.3.0 now. They are waiting for 3.4.0.
I take accountability. I have to tell them about the new release and
what happened to OpenOffice.org.
That's why I needed an answer to the question about the new release.
Greg Stein is a great Apache committer, I believe.
http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html
As I read his posts to this list, I trust him.
Greg said, "I would be surprised if a release is made this year."
This is a clear message.
I trust his word.
It means "It will not happen soon," and "We don't know when it will happen."
Good to have the answer because I can answer my colleagues and users.
:)
Thanks,
khirano
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 17 juin 11 à 08:29, Kazunari Hirano a écrit :
>
>> I would be surprised if a release is made this year.
>
> You gave me the answer.
> :)
>
> Now I can tell members of OpenOffice.org Japanese Language Project and
> OpenOffice.org users in Japan about the new release of OpenOffice.org,
> "It will not happen soon."
>
What is your intention ?
The better you could do is attract people and explain we need them.
Thanks,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Greg,
Thanks.
> The Apache project is *just* starting. It is a mere four days old.
Yes, it is. You are right.
> There are no answers to your questions yet.
Yes. I have got an answer.
> I would be surprised if a release is made this year.
You gave me the answer.
:)
Now I can tell members of OpenOffice.org Japanese Language Project and
OpenOffice.org users in Japan about the new release of OpenOffice.org,
"It will not happen soon."
Thanks,
khirano
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 17 juin 11 à 07:51, Greg Stein a écrit :
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:32, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Le 17 juin 11 à 06:40, Greg Stein a écrit :
>> ...
>>> Please read the ooo-dev mailing list to get a better
>>> understanding of
>>> where we are in the process. I would be surprised if a release is
>>> made this
>>> year.
>>
>> Are you serious ? :-/
>
> We have a lot of dependencies to rip out and deal with. We have a
> lot of files that have not been granted. We have not started any
> kind of
> repository migration. Nobody has investigated the tooling for that
> yet.
>
Maybe we could even create an intermediate public repository, to
start something "real", thus we could ask for help, enumerate the
needs, and people who have commit rights will progressively migrate
the source into Apache repo ?
> Some of those cases: it isn't just "remove dependencies" but to
> rewrite chunks of code because we have to switch libraries (e.g
> regex handling).
Looks like I missed the information. Probably the signal lost in the
too-verbose list :/
> This is not simply "run 'make' on ASF hardware".
>
That's what I understood, even if I missed the regex part.
> There are a lot of steps. Six months to the end of the year. ...
> Hey, if it can happen, then great. I'd be freaking happy. But the task
> seems pretty immense at this point. I'll grant that I may have
> exaggerated. Four months?
>
> Over and over, people keep saying "OO.o is a HUGE COMPLICATED piece
> of code. IT IS A MESS. HARD TO WORK WITH." and that kind of thing.
Well, I answered because I know well OpenOffice.org source code
organization, and I built it zillions of times on every OS (excepted
FreeBSD) since 2003 (I even know a big part of the story).
The problem is that we do not have a todo list, nor anything "real"
to fight with.
> Either they are trying to scare people off, show how awesome they
> are that they can deal with it, or they're simply telling the truth.
The work to be done is probably awesome (no problem, we'll iterate,
and see after), but one more time, there are OpenOffice.org experts
around, and work together, will certainly help. The best we could do
about the code, is to create a wiki page, and organize us.
Regards,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Mathias,
Thanks.
> Nevertheless, assuming that it will take several months is a good
> estimation. I refuse to predict the exact number of months. :-)
I send hearty cheers to you.
khirano
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
On 17.06.2011 07:51, Greg Stein wrote:
> Over and over, people keep saying "OO.o is a HUGE COMPLICATED piece of
> code. IT IS A MESS. HARD TO WORK WITH." and that kind of thing. Either
> they are trying to scare people off, show how awesome they are that
> they can deal with it, or they're simply telling the truth. I tend to
> believe people, so everything built up in my head is that we're going
> to have a really, really hard time to build and release this thing.
OOo *is* huge and complicated. Partially because parts of its code base
are a mess, partially because a huge application with so many features
is not an easy matter. I doubt that any huge word processor will have a
code base that unexperienced developers can work on immediately.
Nevertheless, most parts we have to remove due to license constraints
are well separated from the other code. With a few exceptions (you
mentioned regexp) they are not even part of the code base, but are
provided as external source tarballs and their libraries often are
encapsulated by a small OOo library that exports a stable interface to
the rest of the code.
So replacing LGPL code will take the time it needs to write and test the
new code, but the size or the degree of mess in the code base will play
only a minor role. The "messy" parts only rarely directly interact with
LGPL code.
Nevertheless, assuming that it will take several months is a good
estimation. I refuse to predict the exact number of months. :-)
Disclaimer: I know a lot of OOo code. But of course I don't know every
piece of it. So I might be totally wrong for those parts I don't know.
Regards,
Mathias
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:32, eric b <er...@free.fr> wrote:
> Le 17 juin 11 à 06:40, Greg Stein a écrit :
>...
>> Please read the ooo-dev mailing list to get a better understanding of
>> where we are in the process. I would be surprised if a release is made this
>> year.
>
> Are you serious ? :-/
We have a lot of dependencies to rip out and deal with. We have a lot
of files that have not been granted. We have not started any kind of
repository migration. Nobody has investigated the tooling for that
yet.
Some of those cases: it isn't just "remove dependencies" but to
rewrite chunks of code because we have to switch libraries (e.g regex
handling).
This is not simply "run 'make' on ASF hardware".
There are a lot of steps. Six months to the end of the year. ... Hey,
if it can happen, then great. I'd be freaking happy. But the task
seems pretty immense at this point. I'll grant that I may have
exaggerated. Four months?
Over and over, people keep saying "OO.o is a HUGE COMPLICATED piece of
code. IT IS A MESS. HARD TO WORK WITH." and that kind of thing. Either
they are trying to scare people off, show how awesome they are that
they can deal with it, or they're simply telling the truth. I tend to
believe people, so everything built up in my head is that we're going
to have a really, really hard time to build and release this thing.
> There are several experts of OpenOffice.org build on this list, and wait
> more than a month or so, would kill OpenOffice.org.
An Apache release is not going to happen in a month. That is pretty
clear. Back to that "rewrite code to remove dependencies on copyleft
libraries". Let alone the whole repository filtering and migration
issue.
>...
Cheers,
-g
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
On 17.06.2011 09:45, eric b wrote:
> Hi Mathias,
>
> Le 17 juin 11 à 09:15, Mathias Bauer a écrit :
>
>> On 17.06.2011 07:32, eric b wrote:
>>
>>> @mba : is it possible to use a link showing the progress, and the todo
>>> list to create a "legal" source code tree ?
>>>
>>> A wiki would be perfect. Thus other could join, help and participate.
>>
>> Sure. I assume that you are talking about wiki.services.openoffice.org?
>>
>
> Shouldn't this wiki migrate too ?
I thought that we don't want to wait until that happens.
Anyway, I will create a page their and publish a link.
Regards,
Mathias
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Mathias,
Le 17 juin 11 à 09:15, Mathias Bauer a écrit :
> On 17.06.2011 07:32, eric b wrote:
>
>> @mba : is it possible to use a link showing the progress, and the
>> todo
>> list to create a "legal" source code tree ?
>>
>> A wiki would be perfect. Thus other could join, help and participate.
>
> Sure. I assume that you are talking about
> wiki.services.openoffice.org?
>
Shouldn't this wiki migrate too ?
To be honest, I have no clue what will migrate (I didn't read every
mail), and how, and I'd prefer use an external wiki at the begining.
Waiting, I'll notice everything who has some importance here : http://
wiki.educoo.org/index.php/OpenOffice.org/Migration
Everybody is welcome to improve, add information, correct typos ...
improve :-)
Regards,
Eric
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
On 17.06.2011 07:32, eric b wrote:
> @mba : is it possible to use a link showing the progress, and the todo
> list to create a "legal" source code tree ?
>
> A wiki would be perfect. Thus other could join, help and participate.
Sure. I assume that you are talking about wiki.services.openoffice.org?
Regards,
Mathias
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was: Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 17 juin 11 à 06:40, Greg Stein a écrit :
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 21:15, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> If no, why?, what are problems?
>
> The Apache project is *just* starting. It is a mere four days old.
> There are no answers to your questions yet.
>
> Please read the ooo-dev mailing list to get a better understanding
> of where we are in the process. I would be surprised if a release
> is made this year.
>
Are you serious ? :-/
There are several experts of OpenOffice.org build on this list, and
wait more than a month or so, would kill OpenOffice.org.
@mba : is it possible to use a link showing the progress, and the
todo list to create a "legal" source code tree ?
A wiki would be perfect. Thus other could join, help and participate.
Regards,
Eric
>
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Can we release OOo_3.4.0 install sets and language packs? (was:
Can we rationalize and formalize "a language project"?)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 21:15, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I should have asked questions one by one.
> :)
>
> As you know our binaries or packages or install sets & language packs
> look like these
> OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install-wJRE_ja.exe
> OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_ja.exe
> OOo_3.3.0_Win_x86_langpack_ja.exe
> http://ftp-srv2.kddilabs.jp/office/openoffice/localized/ja/3.3.0/
> Beautiful, aren't they? :)
>
> Now can we, Apache OpenOffice.org incubator project, release OOo_3.4.0
> install sets and language packs soon?
>
> If yes, when will they be released?
>
> If yes, but we have to meet requirements, what are they?
>
> If no, why?, what are problems?
The Apache project is *just* starting. It is a mere four days old.
There are no answers to your questions yet.
Please read the ooo-dev mailing list to get a better understanding of
where we are in the process. I would be surprised if a release is made
this year.
The 3.4 "beta" release that was made will never see a final release.
Too much will need to change for an Apache release, so the work that
went into 3.4 will not apply. If Apache retains the numbering, then it
will have to begin at 3.5 because of the instability introduced by the
change in libraries and processes.
Cheers,
-g