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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by "Davidson, Glenn" <Gl...@tiaa-cref.org> on 2003/06/11 21:14:58 UTC
RE: Struts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
Chris,
I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up
a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net
or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the
following:
.NET
Pluses
Developer Productivity
Negatives
Vendor lock in.
Others (including Struts)
Pluses
No vendor lock in
Negatives
Less developer Productivity
It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer
productivity.
Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be
able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people
are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net .
Thanks
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:chris@gerrard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM
To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Stuts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online "In Brief"
site:
http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/defaul
t.asp
The blurb:
Developer Tools
TurboM2
Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the
Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas
released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM).
Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the
features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open
source model.
There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply
regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the
impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should
naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product)
Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of
Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available
support and training that Struts does not.
Links:
Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html
Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf
The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it
were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes,
indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less
than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my
confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even
further.
Re: Struts/.NET (was JavaPro)
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net
> or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the
> following:
>
> .NET
> Pluses
> Developer Productivity
> Negatives
> Vendor lock in.
>
> Others (including Struts)
> Pluses
> No vendor lock in
> Negatives
> Less developer Productivity
>
> It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer
> productivity.
>
> Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be
> able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people
> are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net .
I think it's been shown that the two things that make the biggest
difference in productivity are
+ Communication among team members, and
+ The developer UI (or communication between developer and source code)
So, if it were me, and I wanted to do the Right Thing, I'd be pushing to
make an Agile Methodology part of the deal, regardless, and then
comparing Visual Developer with IDEA.
If there's been lower Java developer productivity in the past, IMHO, it
would be for lack of a good developer's UI. (And IDEA may be the best
developer's UI ever invented.)
I don't believe that, in practical terms, there is more vendor lock-in
with MS than with Sun. We have more O/S tools for Java, but we've had
longer to write them.
Sun does go farther to embrace the O/S community than MS. Specifications
like JSTL and JSF were developed under a community process. A
commendable idea, but, in practice, the process is essentially closed,
except to the relatively small working group. And, of course, the source
for the JVMs is still under lock and key.
Of course, many O/S developers are being compelled to go .NET, like it
or not, and so we're taking our tools with us:
Mavnet - Production/stable (final release 15/may/03).
http://mavnet.sourceforge.net/
NVelocity - Production/stable (version 0.4 shipped 10/jan/03).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nvelocity
NHibernate - Alpha - Good start, but now awaiting release Hibernate 2
(RC2 - 09/may/03).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nhibernate
NUnit - Production/Stable - 2.0 02/oct/02 - new beta in active development
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nunit/
Log4Net - Production/Stable - 1.1.1 13/apr/02, 1.2 B7 06/may/03
http://sourceforge.net/projects/log4net/
NAnt - Beta - 0.8.2 23/apr/03
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nant/
NLucene - Beta - Shipped b2 16/jul/02, inactive since.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nlucene
The real battle is being fought on SourceForge: Can we, as O/S
developers, make C#/Java a Coke/Pepsi issue?
Platforms like .NET and J2EE will come and go, but O/S marches on.
-Ted.
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Re: Struts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <vi...@baseBeans.com>.
Struts is MUCH more productive, and I would be glad to show you, how
using Struts with OO, you can code circles around.
(I also offer the training w/ money back- excuse the sales talk) I just
want to show you that most of my clients choose J2EE over .NET because
it is more productive and more scalable.
.V
Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> Chris,
> I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up
> a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net
> or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the
> following:
>
> ..NET
> Pluses
> Developer Productivity
> Negatives
> Vendor lock in.
>
> Others (including Struts)
> Pluses
> No vendor lock in
> Negatives
> Less developer Productivity
>
> It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer
> productivity.
>
> Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be
> able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people
> are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net .
>
> Thanks
>
> Glenn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:chris@gerrard.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM
> To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Stuts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
>
>
> I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online "In Brief"
> site:
> http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/defaul
> t.asp
>
> The blurb:
> Developer Tools
> TurboM2
> Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the
> Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas
> released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM).
> Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the
> features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open
> source model.
>
> There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply
> regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the
> impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should
> naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product)
>
> Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of
> Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available
> support and training that Struts does not.
>
> Links:
> Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html
> Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf
>
> The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it
> were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes,
> indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less
> than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my
> confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even
> further.
>
>
>
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Re: Struts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
Posted by Mark Lowe <ma...@talk21.com>.
I have 2 words to say about the .NET stuff
"Springfield monorail"
On Wednesday, Jun 11, 2003, at 20:14 Europe/London, Davidson, Glenn
wrote:
> Chris,
> I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open
> this up
> a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development
> .Net
> or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as
> the
> following:
>
> .NET
> Pluses
> Developer Productivity
> Negatives
> Vendor lock in.
>
> Others (including Struts)
> Pluses
> No vendor lock in
> Negatives
> Less developer Productivity
>
> It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in
> developer
> productivity.
>
> Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers)
> will be
> able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as
> people
> are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net .
>
> Thanks
>
> Glenn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:chris@gerrard.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM
> To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Stuts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
>
>
> I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online "In
> Brief"
> site:
> http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/
> defaul
> t.asp
>
> The blurb:
> Developer Tools
> TurboM2
> Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the
> Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas
> released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM).
> Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many
> of the
> features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open
> source model.
>
> There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has
> simply
> regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the
> impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one
> should
> naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product)
>
> Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct
> clone of
> Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available
> support and training that Struts does not.
>
> Links:
> Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html
> Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf
>
> The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as
> if it
> were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that
> yes,
> indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been
> less
> than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my
> confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world
> even
> further.
>
>
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RE: Struts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
Posted by James Holmes <ja...@jamesholmes.com>.
I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne
right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious
resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put
together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces:
http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/
-James
Struts Console
http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/
-----Original Message-----
From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:Glenn.Davidson@tiaa-cref.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM
To: 'Struts Developers List'
Subject: RE: Struts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
Chris,
I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open
this up
a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development
.Net
or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as
the
following:
.NET
Pluses
Developer Productivity
Negatives
Vendor lock in.
Others (including Struts)
Pluses
No vendor lock in
Negatives
Less developer Productivity
It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in
developer
productivity.
Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will
be
able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as
people
are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net .
Thanks
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:chris@gerrard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM
To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Stuts can't "get its act together" - JavaPro
I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online "In
Brief"
site:
http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de
faul
t.asp
The blurb:
Developer Tools
TurboM2
Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the
Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas
released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM).
Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of
the
features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open
source model.
There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has
simply
regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the
impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one
should
naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product)
Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone
of
Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available
support and training that Struts does not.
Links:
Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html
Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf
The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if
it
were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that
yes,
indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been
less
than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my
confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world
even
further.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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