You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@gmail.com> on 2020/09/04 13:59:12 UTC
Re: the Flex website
Carlos,
I'll look into it this weekend.
We should also talk about starting the process to attic the Flex project as
well. Once Flash is done and gone in a few months, and AIR support is
solely with a 3rd party, I don't think there is going to be much future for
this project...
-Nick
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:08 AM Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
>
> In another thread we talked about adding a banner flex website to make
> Apache Royale be known for flex users.
> Could you please add that banner? I was unable to do it. Copy here what we
> talked in the other thread:
>
> "I think just a visible section (maybe before the main menu or after it),
> of about 300px-400px height with a message like this:
>
> *"For those who need a frontend technology that runs in browsers without
> Adobe Flash Player, *
> *please check Apache Royale.*
> *Apache Flex will still be used outside browsers with desktop technologies
> (i.e, Adobe AIR) after December 31th, 2020."*
>
> And make the "Apache Royale" text link to the website (
> https://royale.apache.org).
> Please correct the spelling to match the right english translation.
> If possible make the background green or blue and wording white with some
> sizing so it captures attention."
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Carlos
>
>
>
> El mié., 26 ago. 2020 a las 14:40, Andrew Wetmore (<an...@apache.org>)
> escribió:
>
> > Good to know.
> >
> > As far as I know, any of the static site generators that support MarkDown
> > also support traditional HTML, so migrating should not require a general
> > rewrite.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Kwiatkowski <
> > nicholaskwiatkowski@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hey there -- checking in (this thread ended up in my spam blocker
> > somehow).
> > >
> > > We do still use the CMS, but we didn't use a ton of features in it. We
> > > mostly used it to glue on a header and footer to the straight HTML
> pages.
> > > It looks like the CMSs that were linked in the initial post are mostly
> > > markdown-based, which we don't use (and it would be a pain to convert
> > over
> > > to).
> > >
> > > I don't have a ton of time this week -- I'm trying to convert my
> classes
> > to
> > > be online at the last second, again. If anybody else on the list wants
> > to
> > > do the research to move it over, I can chime in to help. I should have
> > > some more time in a few weeks when things settle down.
> > >
> > > -Nick
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:12 AM Andrew Wetmore <co...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The migration from the CMS to any of the likely static-site
> generators
> > is
> > > > more like a copy and paste than a rewrite, if the site uses HTML or
> > > > markdown.
> > > >
> > > > a
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 2:34 PM Carlos Rovira <
> carlosrovira@apache.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Tom's idea of dump html is the best. I tried recently to
> add
> > a
> > > > > simple banner on the main home page and must abandon since it was
> > > > difficult
> > > > > and use SVN.
> > > > >
> > > > > just an html dump where we can easily change a part of html would
> be
> > > > > enough for this migration and maintenance
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El mar., 18 ago. 2020 a las 11:32, Tom Chiverton (<
> > tc@extravision.com
> > > >)
> > > > > escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 18/08/2020 07:45, Olaf Krueger wrote:
> > > > > > > I took a look into your migration guide and it sounds like that
> > we
> > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > rewrite the entire page by using other technologies, e.g. one
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > static
> > > > > > > site generators. Is that right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Surely there has to be a way to just dump raw HTML in a folder
> and
> > > have
> > > > > > it served up... the site doesn't change so that would be easiest
> > for
> > > > us ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
> > > > service.
> > > > > > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> > > > > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Carlos Rovira
> > > > > http://about.me/carlosrovira
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andrew Wetmore
> > > >
> > > > http://cottage14.blogspot.com/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Wetmore
> > Technical Writer-Editor
> > Infra
> > *Apache Software Foundation*
> > andreww@apache.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> http://about.me/carlosrovira
>
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org>.
Hi Erik,
As a long time Flex/Flash advocate I must say that runtime fate is set for
a long time, so in that front we can't do much more and go with the flow
like it happened with VHS/Beta, PC/Amiga, and many more...
BUT, I think we can preserve what for me is of huge value: the Flex
programming model with AS3/MXML, View States, Binding, AMF (RPC), and much
more... through Apache Royale. For me having that productivity is
priceless. Also mixing with the good stuff in the modern development world
means to boost what we already had. For example, I think CSS
implementation in browsers is far better than the subset we had in Flash
Player (and Flex), so that joins the Royale programming model through
normal CSS... or through SASS :).
I think Flex/AIR will still be there for as long as people will use it,
maybe unfortunately few people now. For many others it's normal that they
must go with the rest of the world. For many of them, like you, maybe is
late since you'll go React (that's normal since companies tend to go to the
mainstream tech for security), but just say that in 2020, I think Apache
Royale and Jewel set has reach a very good state and it's a pleasure to
work with it, as it was Flex. So maybe giving a try in the current state
would surprise you, and will make your migration easier than going React.
I'll be presenting at ApacheCon at the end of this month (31th) a talk that
showcases the TodoMVC example here [1] and here [2]. Hope that helps others
to notice how far we reach, and that Royale is now a real option for all.
Talks are here [3], and the TodoMVC talk is "Starting from a blank file"
HTH
Carlos
[1] demo: https://royale.apache.org/todomvc-jewel/
[2] code:
https://github.com/apache/royale-asjs/blob/develop/examples/crux/todomvc-jewel-crux/readme.md
[3] https://www.apachecon.com/acah2020/tracks/royale.html
El vie., 11 sept. 2020 a las 4:40, Erik Thomas (<er...@linqto.com>) escribió:
> Hey all:
>
> If you are a Flex devotee, like me, a longtime admirer of the beauty in
> Flex that introduced a declarative + procedural model that preceded
> Microsoft's C sharp and WPF models that essentially stole the idea from
> Flex for a structural MVC where the view and controller were represented by
> the MXML and as3 respectively, I believe there is much life left in Flex.
>
> It is still a very relevant platform for creating single-codebase mobile
> apps for Android and iOS. It produces far smaller executables than Swift
> and most all other competing platforms. The availability of ANEs to access
> native capability provides near parity with native app development, not
> quite, but close enough to get multiplatform support for a single platform.
>
> I've been developing Flex apps since 2007 with the release of Flex 3 by
> Adobe. I was working for Intuit at the time Flex was a huge departure from
> Intuit's C++/MFC centric development platform that was used for QuickBooks
> (I was a QuickBooks engineer prior to accepting a challenge to develop a
> new product using Flex). It was refreshing to start a new project and not
> have to maintain and develop on a 6 million LOC C++ application.
>
> While I was at it I was also one of a team that was evaluating MS WPF so I
> learned that too, and while I still think WPF was amazing, it stole much of
> it's design from Macromedia that designed Flex, and I haven't seen a new
> paradigm to challenge the declarative/procedural design even today, IMHO.
> But the real power is in the runtime. Just like Java practically replaced C
> and C++ based web development because of the amazing advantages of a
> sandboxed runtime environment, the AIR runtime is brilliant, even today. No
> other major platform for mobile (or web, though the flash player is
> definitely dying) can equal the performance of the AIR runtime. One must
> compile to native and that comes with a boatload of problems especially
> multi-platform support. A runtime engine is still brilliant, just as Java
> runtimes still power nearly half of the billions of web apps on the
> internet.
>
> What I don't understand is why Flex doesn't attract more developers, but
> I'm sure it's because universities and colleges, and tech schools don't
> teach it because it's considered fringe. If people really understood what
> it could do we could see third party tools, ANEs, and new innovations that
> pushed it back into the mainstream.
>
> Oh well. Sometimes the best ideas and designs don't achieve mindshare and
> fail for reasons entirely unrelated to capability.
>
> Ancients like me will remember the VHS vs. Betacam wars where the latter
> was 10X better and still failed because of marketing, mindshare, and
> somewhat political reasoning.
>
> My company still has two very successful mobile apps built with Flex/AIR
> and some ANEs by Distriqt (the very best ANE developer on the planet
> without doubt): Linqto and Keiretsu Forum.
>
> Alas, we have even succumbed to pressure to replace these apps with REACT
> Native and will be embarking on this road in the next month. It's a sad
> day. But now that a big company like Adobe has relinquished the reins of
> both Flex (some years ago) and AIR (to Harmann recently), it seems the fate
> of this amazing development platform is destined to the graveyard.
>
> I know there's lots of great innovation with Royale to breathe live back
> into Flex apps, and there are migration options as well. These are great
> things, but in my opinion, unnecessary because the AIR runtime is FAR, FAR
> better than relying on any browser-based rendering engine to render
> javascript, html, and CSS.
>
> Just sharing my opinion as someone who has made his living with Flex since
> 2007, was once a master/guru of MFC/C++ since Windows 1.5, and got my first
> contract in 1983.
>
> Erik Thomas
> Chief Architect
> http://linqto.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Erik Thomas <er...@linqto.com>.
Hey all:
If you are a Flex devotee, like me, a longtime admirer of the beauty in Flex that introduced a declarative + procedural model that preceded Microsoft's C sharp and WPF models that essentially stole the idea from Flex for a structural MVC where the view and controller were represented by the MXML and as3 respectively, I believe there is much life left in Flex.
It is still a very relevant platform for creating single-codebase mobile apps for Android and iOS. It produces far smaller executables than Swift and most all other competing platforms. The availability of ANEs to access native capability provides near parity with native app development, not quite, but close enough to get multiplatform support for a single platform.
I've been developing Flex apps since 2007 with the release of Flex 3 by Adobe. I was working for Intuit at the time Flex was a huge departure from Intuit's C++/MFC centric development platform that was used for QuickBooks (I was a QuickBooks engineer prior to accepting a challenge to develop a new product using Flex). It was refreshing to start a new project and not have to maintain and develop on a 6 million LOC C++ application.
While I was at it I was also one of a team that was evaluating MS WPF so I learned that too, and while I still think WPF was amazing, it stole much of it's design from Macromedia that designed Flex, and I haven't seen a new paradigm to challenge the declarative/procedural design even today, IMHO. But the real power is in the runtime. Just like Java practically replaced C and C++ based web development because of the amazing advantages of a sandboxed runtime environment, the AIR runtime is brilliant, even today. No other major platform for mobile (or web, though the flash player is definitely dying) can equal the performance of the AIR runtime. One must compile to native and that comes with a boatload of problems especially multi-platform support. A runtime engine is still brilliant, just as Java runtimes still power nearly half of the billions of web apps on the internet.
What I don't understand is why Flex doesn't attract more developers, but I'm sure it's because universities and colleges, and tech schools don't teach it because it's considered fringe. If people really understood what it could do we could see third party tools, ANEs, and new innovations that pushed it back into the mainstream.
Oh well. Sometimes the best ideas and designs don't achieve mindshare and fail for reasons entirely unrelated to capability.
Ancients like me will remember the VHS vs. Betacam wars where the latter was 10X better and still failed because of marketing, mindshare, and somewhat political reasoning.
My company still has two very successful mobile apps built with Flex/AIR and some ANEs by Distriqt (the very best ANE developer on the planet without doubt): Linqto and Keiretsu Forum.
Alas, we have even succumbed to pressure to replace these apps with REACT Native and will be embarking on this road in the next month. It's a sad day. But now that a big company like Adobe has relinquished the reins of both Flex (some years ago) and AIR (to Harmann recently), it seems the fate of this amazing development platform is destined to the graveyard.
I know there's lots of great innovation with Royale to breathe live back into Flex apps, and there are migration options as well. These are great things, but in my opinion, unnecessary because the AIR runtime is FAR, FAR better than relying on any browser-based rendering engine to render javascript, html, and CSS.
Just sharing my opinion as someone who has made his living with Flex since 2007, was once a master/guru of MFC/C++ since Windows 1.5, and got my first contract in 1983.
Erik Thomas
Chief Architect
http://linqto.com
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org>.
Yeah, Flex still is with us, and will be as long as AIR (at least) is here!!
So don't worry more about Flex! :)
El jue., 10 sept. 2020 a las 13:38, Piotr Zarzycki (<
piotrzarzycki21@gmail.com>) escribió:
> Leo,
>
> No one said it is going to happen.
>
> Thanks,
> Piotr
>
> czw., 10 wrz 2020 o 13:30 leokan23 <le...@best-web.gr> napisał(a):
>
> > Sad to see Flex getting ready to be moved to the darkness of the attic :/
> > We
> > still have a couple of million users, using our Flex mobile apps.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Piotr Zarzycki
>
--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Piotr Zarzycki <pi...@gmail.com>.
Leo,
No one said it is going to happen.
Thanks,
Piotr
czw., 10 wrz 2020 o 13:30 leokan23 <le...@best-web.gr> napisał(a):
> Sad to see Flex getting ready to be moved to the darkness of the attic :/
> We
> still have a couple of million users, using our Flex mobile apps.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
>
--
Piotr Zarzycki
Re: the Flex website
Posted by leokan23 <le...@best-web.gr>.
Sad to see Flex getting ready to be moved to the darkness of the attic :/ We
still have a couple of million users, using our Flex mobile apps.
--
Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Stuart Thomas <st...@scuba.app.INVALID>.
AIR is alive and well!!!
Sent from Beyond
> On Sep 5, 2020, at 12:04 AM, Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I think Flex still has (and will have) its own future. What is going to an
> end is Flash Player Plugin (so Flash on Browsers). We tend to mix things on
> that front. Since Flash in AIR is still on desktop and mobile, Flex still
> has its use, and there are some people still using it.
> I think going to Attic could happen the day AIR is retired or unsupported,
> but since we have still official (commercial) support, all is ok.
>
> Thanks Nicholas!, please let us know when you add the Royale warning banner
> to Flex website so we can see how it looks! :)
>
>
>> El vie., 4 sept. 2020 a las 22:48, Olaf Krueger (<ma...@olafkrueger.net>)
>> escribió:
>>
>> This is, what Apache says:
>>
>> "When should a project move to the Attic?
>> Projects whose PMC are unable to muster 3 votes for a release, who have no
>> active committers or are unable to fulfill their reporting duties to the
>> board are all good candidates for the Attic." [1]
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>> [1]https://attic.apache.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
>>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> http://about.me/carlosrovira
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org>.
Hi,
I think Flex still has (and will have) its own future. What is going to an
end is Flash Player Plugin (so Flash on Browsers). We tend to mix things on
that front. Since Flash in AIR is still on desktop and mobile, Flex still
has its use, and there are some people still using it.
I think going to Attic could happen the day AIR is retired or unsupported,
but since we have still official (commercial) support, all is ok.
Thanks Nicholas!, please let us know when you add the Royale warning banner
to Flex website so we can see how it looks! :)
El vie., 4 sept. 2020 a las 22:48, Olaf Krueger (<ma...@olafkrueger.net>)
escribió:
> This is, what Apache says:
>
> "When should a project move to the Attic?
> Projects whose PMC are unable to muster 3 votes for a release, who have no
> active committers or are unable to fulfill their reporting duties to the
> board are all good candidates for the Attic." [1]
>
> Olaf
>
> [1]https://attic.apache.org/
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
>
--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Olaf Krueger <ma...@olafkrueger.net>.
This is, what Apache says:
"When should a project move to the Attic?
Projects whose PMC are unable to muster 3 votes for a release, who have no
active committers or are unable to fulfill their reporting duties to the
board are all good candidates for the Attic." [1]
Olaf
[1]https://attic.apache.org/
--
Sent from: http://apache-flex-development.2333347.n4.nabble.com/
Re: the Flex website
Posted by Piotr Zarzycki <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Nick,
As long as Flex is on Desktop and Mobile from my sight would be -1 with
going to Attic with this project.
However we can talk and maybe someone convince me with that.
Thanks,
Piotr
pt., 4 wrz 2020 o 15:59 Nicholas Kwiatkowski <ni...@gmail.com>
napisał(a):
> Carlos,
>
> I'll look into it this weekend.
>
> We should also talk about starting the process to attic the Flex project as
> well. Once Flash is done and gone in a few months, and AIR support is
> solely with a 3rd party, I don't think there is going to be much future for
> this project...
>
> -Nick
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:08 AM Carlos Rovira <ca...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Nicholas,
> >
> > In another thread we talked about adding a banner flex website to make
> > Apache Royale be known for flex users.
> > Could you please add that banner? I was unable to do it. Copy here what
> we
> > talked in the other thread:
> >
> > "I think just a visible section (maybe before the main menu or after it),
> > of about 300px-400px height with a message like this:
> >
> > *"For those who need a frontend technology that runs in browsers without
> > Adobe Flash Player, *
> > *please check Apache Royale.*
> > *Apache Flex will still be used outside browsers with desktop
> technologies
> > (i.e, Adobe AIR) after December 31th, 2020."*
> >
> > And make the "Apache Royale" text link to the website (
> > https://royale.apache.org).
> > Please correct the spelling to match the right english translation.
> > If possible make the background green or blue and wording white with some
> > sizing so it captures attention."
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Carlos
> >
> >
> >
> > El mié., 26 ago. 2020 a las 14:40, Andrew Wetmore (<an...@apache.org>)
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Good to know.
> > >
> > > As far as I know, any of the static site generators that support
> MarkDown
> > > also support traditional HTML, so migrating should not require a
> general
> > > rewrite.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Kwiatkowski <
> > > nicholaskwiatkowski@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey there -- checking in (this thread ended up in my spam blocker
> > > somehow).
> > > >
> > > > We do still use the CMS, but we didn't use a ton of features in it.
> We
> > > > mostly used it to glue on a header and footer to the straight HTML
> > pages.
> > > > It looks like the CMSs that were linked in the initial post are
> mostly
> > > > markdown-based, which we don't use (and it would be a pain to convert
> > > over
> > > > to).
> > > >
> > > > I don't have a ton of time this week -- I'm trying to convert my
> > classes
> > > to
> > > > be online at the last second, again. If anybody else on the list
> wants
> > > to
> > > > do the research to move it over, I can chime in to help. I should
> have
> > > > some more time in a few weeks when things settle down.
> > > >
> > > > -Nick
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:12 AM Andrew Wetmore <co...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The migration from the CMS to any of the likely static-site
> > generators
> > > is
> > > > > more like a copy and paste than a rewrite, if the site uses HTML or
> > > > > markdown.
> > > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 2:34 PM Carlos Rovira <
> > carlosrovira@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think Tom's idea of dump html is the best. I tried recently to
> > add
> > > a
> > > > > > simple banner on the main home page and must abandon since it was
> > > > > difficult
> > > > > > and use SVN.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > just an html dump where we can easily change a part of html would
> > be
> > > > > > enough for this migration and maintenance
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El mar., 18 ago. 2020 a las 11:32, Tom Chiverton (<
> > > tc@extravision.com
> > > > >)
> > > > > > escribió:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 18/08/2020 07:45, Olaf Krueger wrote:
> > > > > > > > I took a look into your migration guide and it sounds like
> that
> > > we
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > rewrite the entire page by using other technologies, e.g. one
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > static
> > > > > > > > site generators. Is that right?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Surely there has to be a way to just dump raw HTML in a folder
> > and
> > > > have
> > > > > > > it served up... the site doesn't change so that would be
> easiest
> > > for
> > > > > us ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email
> Security.cloud
> > > > > service.
> > > > > > > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Carlos Rovira
> > > > > > http://about.me/carlosrovira
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Andrew Wetmore
> > > > >
> > > > > http://cottage14.blogspot.com/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Wetmore
> > > Technical Writer-Editor
> > > Infra
> > > *Apache Software Foundation*
> > > andreww@apache.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Rovira
> > http://about.me/carlosrovira
> >
>
--
Piotr Zarzycki