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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com> on 2001/07/10 18:36:07 UTC
Reply-to munging
Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to on
all the jakarta lists?
Please read
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
before asking why it's a problem.
(BTW, I just got bit: I replied to a message with R and only after I hit
"send" did I notice that it was going to the whole list instead of to the
individual I intended.)
(Also, if someone wants to reach me privately, they should use the address
in my Reply-to field -- I don't appreciate the list stripping it and leaving
the unpreferred From address.)
--
Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
jGuru - Java News and FAQs http://www.jguru.com/alex/
Creator of Gamelan http://www.gamelan.com/
Founder of Purple Technology http://www.purpletech.com/
Curator of Stinky Art Collective http://www.stinky.com/
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <cg...@qos.ch>.
At 21:11 10.07.2001 +0200, Gunnar Rønning wrote:
>* Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
>|
>| Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding
>| Reply-to on all the jakarta lists?
>
>I agree with this, but this case has been up before with some people
>having very strong feelings about the current config. I would prefer
>to keep the reply-to header intact and rather teach people how to use
>their mail programs. Most people around ought to be able to that or is
>the people here in Apache land not as bright as those in other userlands on
>the net ?
I am for one thankful to Pier and others for the doing the ungrateful work of managing our mailing lists. As for the brightness of people in the Apache land, one can be sure that making allusions on our limited intelligence will bring out the best in us. Well, maybe not... Ceki
ps: I am also in favor of preserving the Reply-to field but people who have given the issue some thought have the opposite opinion.
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
| I note for the record, however, that I received two copies of this email,
| which means that Joe must have hit "Group Reply", so that means that *even
| with* Reply-to munging on, the principle of minimal bandwidth is violated :-)
Not that I think it matters _that_ much, but I seriously like the "reply
to all" thing when replying to a list, and always does it myself! ;)
The reasons are this:
I send a mail to a list, and then when someone replies to it:
*) I will know that it is a reply to _my_ post, not "just a new message".
Pine (and I believe all the rest) knows my email address, and therefore
"highlights" the messages which are replies to my post.
*) Sorting (Procmail). I can sort based on that this is a post to the
tomcat list, but my address is in the headers, therefore I'll also send a
SMS to my cell telling me of the newly arrived reply to my post. Just as
an example.
I believe it says more to include the original posters address than not
doing it. You can use "formail" to delete duplicates, I believe.
If there is some other way of doing those two things I pointed out, please
let me know..
|
| (I note also that since my From address is not my preferred address, anyone
| replying to me personally from a list post will be using my internal
| address, which may change at any moment
Then why not change your From: ? I use my personal address when posting to
forums and friends and such, and my work address when mailing to collegues
and business stuff. This I do using Pine's "Roles", so that the From: is
based on which folder I'm standing in when writing or replying.
--
Mvh,
Endre
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
| on 7/11/01 11:12 AM, "Alex Chaffee" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
|
| > I note for the record, however, that I received two copies of this email,
| > which means that Joe must have hit "Group Reply", so that means that *even
| > with* Reply-to munging on, the principle of minimal bandwidth is violated :-)
|
| I just did a group to reply to this email and my email client only made it
| go back to the list. Someone must have added you manually.
Depends on your mailer.
It _should_ only respect the Reply-To: header (by RFC, I believe), but
e.g. Pine allows you to do a "Reply to all recipients" as well.
It is a compile-time option, I think. The one I'm using asks whether I
want to use the Reply-To: address intstead of From:, and then, if the mail
was sent to several addresses, asks whether I want to "Reply to all
recipients".
--
Mvh,
Endre
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/11/01 11:12 AM, "Alex Chaffee" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
> I note for the record, however, that I received two copies of this email,
> which means that Joe must have hit "Group Reply", so that means that *even
> with* Reply-to munging on, the principle of minimal bandwidth is violated :-)
I just did a group to reply to this email and my email client only made it
go back to the list. Someone must have added you manually.
-jon
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com>.
Joseph Dane wrote:
>>>>>>"Alex" == Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>
> Alex> Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding
> Alex> Reply-to on all the jakarta lists?
>
> Alex> Please read http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> Alex> before asking why it's a problem.
>
> http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
>
> my vote, FWIW, is to leave things as they are.
>
>
Thank you, Joe! I hadn't seen that document before, and it's good to have a
list of all the counter-arguments (rather than a barrage of -1s).
I note for the record, however, that I received two copies of this email,
which means that Joe must have hit "Group Reply", so that means that *even
with* Reply-to munging on, the principle of minimal bandwidth is violated :-)
(I note also that since my From address is not my preferred address, anyone
replying to me personally from a list post will be using my internal
address, which may change at any moment -- Mr. Hill's reply-to-useful doc
doesn't address this. And I'm not demanding a response here, either -- as
far as I'm concerned, this question is asked and answered, and I'm happy to
get back to work.)
- A
--
Alex Chaffee mailto:alex@jguru.com
jGuru - Java News and FAQs http://www.jguru.com/alex/
Creator of Gamelan http://www.gamelan.com/
Founder of Purple Technology http://www.purpletech.com/
Curator of Stinky Art Collective http://www.stinky.com/
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/10/01 2:09 PM, "Joseph Dane" <jo...@hotu.com> wrote:
> http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
>
> my vote, FWIW, is to leave things as they are.
>
> --
>
> joe
HELL YES!
That essay conveys *exactly* what I was thinking. I love it. Thanks for the
link. I'm saving that one forever.
-jon
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Joseph Dane <jo...@hotu.com>.
>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com> writes:
Alex> Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding
Alex> Reply-to on all the jakarta lists?
Alex> Please read http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Alex> before asking why it's a problem.
http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
my vote, FWIW, is to leave things as they are.
--
joe
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RE: Reply-to munging
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@thought.co.uk>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I expect the list to behave the way it does ..
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:donaldp@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:23 PM
> To: general@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Reply-to munging
>
>
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:36, Alex Chaffee wrote:
> > Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding
> Reply-to on
> > all the jakarta lists?
> >
> > Please read
> > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> > before asking why it's a problem.
> >
> > (BTW, I just got bit: I replied to a message with R and only
> > after I hit "send" did I notice that it was going to the whole
> > list instead
> of to the
> > individual I intended.)
> >
> > (Also, if someone wants to reach me privately, they should use
> the address
> > in my Reply-to field -- I don't appreciate the list stripping it
> > and leaving the unpreferred From address.)
>
> -1
>
> I get bit far more often when it is not the case.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> *-----------------------------------------------------*
> | "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
> | and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
> | everyone gets busy on the proof." |
> | - John Kenneth Galbraith |
> *-----------------------------------------------------*
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:36, Alex Chaffee wrote:
> Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to on
> all the jakarta lists?
>
> Please read
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> before asking why it's a problem.
>
> (BTW, I just got bit: I replied to a message with R and only after I hit
> "send" did I notice that it was going to the whole list instead of to the
> individual I intended.)
>
> (Also, if someone wants to reach me privately, they should use the address
> in my Reply-to field -- I don't appreciate the list stripping it and
> leaving the unpreferred From address.)
-1
I get bit far more often when it is not the case.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Gunnar Rønning <gu...@polygnosis.com>.
* Alex Chaffee <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
|
| Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding
| Reply-to on all the jakarta lists?
I agree with this, but this case has been up before with some people
having very strong feelings about the current config. I would prefer
to keep the reply-to header intact and rather teach people how to use
their mail programs. Most people around ought to be able to that or is
the people here in Apache land not as bright as those in other userlands on
the net ?
IMNSHO,
Gunnar
--
Gunnar Rønning - gunnar@polygnosis.com
Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Warner Onstine <wa...@warneronstine.com>.
No need.
http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
-warner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Stevens" <jo...@latchkey.com>
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Reply-to munging
> on 7/10/01 9:36 AM, "Alex Chaffee" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
>
> > Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to
on
> > all the jakarta lists?
> >
> > Please read
> > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> > before asking why it's a problem.
>
> -1
>
> That document is one persons opinion and shouldn't be taken as everyone's
> opinion. I would *hate* it to always get two copies of everyone's email
> because people are lazy and don't remove the people when they
reply-to-all.
> Yes, I use procmail to filter on messageid, but making everyone do that is
> uncool and it also doesn't work when the messageid from the list is
> modified. Yes, I agree that mail clients should be improved to deal with
> this better, but the fact of the matter is that that isn't going to happen
> anytime soon.
>
> Sigh, one of these days, I need to go write a document that discounts
> everything that person says. Theory is a good thing, but practicality is
> reality.
>
> -jon
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/10/01 9:36 AM, "Alex Chaffee" <gu...@stinky.com> wrote:
> Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to on
> all the jakarta lists?
>
> Please read
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> before asking why it's a problem.
-1
That document is one persons opinion and shouldn't be taken as everyone's
opinion. I would *hate* it to always get two copies of everyone's email
because people are lazy and don't remove the people when they reply-to-all.
Yes, I use procmail to filter on messageid, but making everyone do that is
uncool and it also doesn't work when the messageid from the list is
modified. Yes, I agree that mail clients should be improved to deal with
this better, but the fact of the matter is that that isn't going to happen
anytime soon.
Sigh, one of these days, I need to go write a document that discounts
everything that person says. Theory is a good thing, but practicality is
reality.
-jon
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Re: getting started
Posted by Bruno Unna <br...@iac.com.mx>.
On 10 Jul 2001 14:59:17 -0800, Lothar Krause wrote:
> I just want to get started with turbine as describe in the tdk howto.
>
> However when I get to the section "Creating your first Turbine application"
> pt 3) I get following error message
>
> >ant
>
> BUILD FAILED
>
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/build.xml:8:
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/lib not found
>
> I get this error with both tdk-2.1 and tdk-2.2a1, I'm using currently ant
> version 1.3 and kaffe on a linux box.
>
> I'm little suspicious about kaffe any ideas?
I've had very bad experiences with kaffe, and extremely good ones with
j2sdk 1.3. Why don't you try it?
Regards.
>
> thanks, Lothar
>
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--
"Create like a god, Bruno Unna <br...@iac.com.mx>
command like a king, Internet de Alta Calidad
and work like a slave." Red Hat Certified Engineer
Kawasaki PGP public key available
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Re: getting started
Posted by Kasper Nielsen <ne...@kav.dk>.
> BUILD FAILED
>
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/build.xml:8:
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/lib not found
>
> I get this error with both tdk-2.1 and tdk-2.2a1, I'm using currently ant
> version 1.3 and kaffe on a linux box.
>
> I'm little suspicious about kaffe any ideas?
>
Isn't kaffe only supporting Java 1.1?
- Kasper
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Re: getting started
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 7/10/01 3:59 PM, "Lothar Krause" <lo...@SDSC.EDU> wrote:
> I get this error with both tdk-2.1 and tdk-2.2a1, I'm using currently ant
> version 1.3 and kaffe on a linux box.
>
> I'm little suspicious about kaffe any ideas?
>
> thanks, Lothar
Kaffe won't work.
JDK 1.2 and higher only.
-jon
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Re: getting started
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@apache.org>.
On 7/10/01 6:59 PM, "Lothar Krause" <lo...@SDSC.EDU> wrote:
> I just want to get started with turbine as describe in the tdk howto.
>
> However when I get to the section "Creating your first Turbine application"
> pt 3) I get following error message
>
>> ant
>
> BUILD FAILED
>
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/build.xml:8:
> [HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/lib not found
>
> I get this error with both tdk-2.1 and tdk-2.2a1, I'm using currently ant
> version 1.3 and kaffe on a linux box.
>
> I'm little suspicious about kaffe any ideas?
I don't know about Kaffe? Don't even bother with the 2.2 alpha series
unless you know what you're doing. The alphas are not for the squeamish.
> thanks, Lothar
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
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getting started
Posted by Lothar Krause <lo...@SDSC.EDU>.
I just want to get started with turbine as describe in the tdk howto.
However when I get to the section "Creating your first Turbine application"
pt 3) I get following error message
>ant
BUILD FAILED
[HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/build.xml:8:
[HOME]/tdk/webapps/newapp/WEB-INF/build/lib not found
I get this error with both tdk-2.1 and tdk-2.2a1, I'm using currently ant
version 1.3 and kaffe on a linux box.
I'm little suspicious about kaffe any ideas?
thanks, Lothar
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RE: Reply-to munging
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@thought.co.uk>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hooray, good for you.. Reply-to is intended for precisely this kind
of use, and denying it is luddite nonsense.
>
> NOT AGAIN... We went thru this 100000000 times, and the reply is
> _NO_
>
> Pier
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Re: Reply-to munging
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Alex Chaffee at guru@stinky.com wrote:
>
> Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to on
> all the jakarta lists?
>
> Please read
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> before asking why it's a problem.
>
> (BTW, I just got bit: I replied to a message with R and only after I hit
> "send" did I notice that it was going to the whole list instead of to the
> individual I intended.)
>
> (Also, if someone wants to reach me privately, they should use the address
> in my Reply-to field -- I don't appreciate the list stripping it and leaving
> the unpreferred From address.)
NOT AGAIN... We went thru this 100000000 times, and the reply is _NO_
Pier
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