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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> on 2015/07/04 18:34:36 UTC
Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
>> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
>> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
>> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
incorporate
>> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>
> Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
that
> exactly this happened.
Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
consider it optional.
What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
bylaws at all by the board.
It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
tell a unified story to the outside world...
The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
few....
The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >
> > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> >
> > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
I would say that the (hints of) examples presented, especially meaning
deviation of the general 'guideline' of a simple majority vote for
(procedural) aspects would be enough reason for any aspiring ASF project to
do just to all to have a set of bylaws.
Despite all the ASF pages to make its philosophies interpretable in only
one way, I hear/see a lot of variants of what is the Apache Way or the
Apache Code of Conduct from various - fellow - ASF politicians (pun
intended :-)).
It is bylaws that decrease the ambiguity instilled in the ASF pages,
ensuring that due process is or can be established, that every contributor
can expect rules to be applied equally to all. Guidelines, as some of the
esteemed Members of the ASF or participants in this discussion seem to
regard the policies of the ASF, don't deliver that.
Remember, like Sarbanes-Oxley intended with respect to how enterprises
conduct their business , per project bylaws feed into the aspect of
compliance to the ASF doctrine or explain when deviating on points.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ....if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple
> > majority voting for specific aspects - think off changing the direction
> or
> > goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed)
> has
> > a vote with respect of onboarding new PMC Members - this must be
> > incorporated in the bylaws of a project....
>
> This makes me feel like there you have an actual case behind this
> whole discussion.
>
> If that's correct, it might be easier to discuss the actual case
> rather than higher level and more abstract things.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ....if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple
> majority voting for specific aspects - think off changing the direction or
> goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed) has
> a vote with respect of onboarding new PMC Members - this must be
> incorporated in the bylaws of a project....
This makes me feel like there you have an actual case behind this
whole discussion.
If that's correct, it might be easier to discuss the actual case
rather than higher level and more abstract things.
-Bertrand
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
I believe the point is that since we are about consensus it can (and in mt opinion should) be argued that rules are usually not necessary - respectful human interaction shouldn't require rules. Occasionally things break down, in such situations rules for conflict resolution become important, hence the defaults apply.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 9:30 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
As it has been established in the "Veto! Veto?" thread that with procedural
issues a bit more is required than the generic statements in the Code of
Conduct and other pages describing the Apache Way.
Especially if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple
majority voting for specific aspects - think off changing the direction or
goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed) has
a vote with respect of onboarding new PMC Members - this must be
incorporated in the bylaws of a project.
And these deviation must be checked against what the ASF states as its core
values.
That individuals regard bylaws as evil, doesn't make it less necessary.
Those who are at the good end of the stick never find such a necessity.
Bylaws exist to decribe the elements of due process.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 4:47 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of
> > trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down
> > the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict
> > than writing down the rules.
>
> Just as Benson I'm writing this as somebody who mentored a whole
> bunch of podlings: early per-project bylawas are a sure sign of trouble
> in my book. Its the same issue as the community that runs a vote for
> every little thing imaginable.
>
> Both tend to create minorities and really get in the way of true consensus
> long term.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
As it has been established in the "Veto! Veto?" thread that with procedural
issues a bit more is required than the generic statements in the Code of
Conduct and other pages describing the Apache Way.
Especially if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple
majority voting for specific aspects - think off changing the direction or
goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed) has
a vote with respect of onboarding new PMC Members - this must be
incorporated in the bylaws of a project.
And these deviation must be checked against what the ASF states as its core
values.
That individuals regard bylaws as evil, doesn't make it less necessary.
Those who are at the good end of the stick never find such a necessity.
Bylaws exist to decribe the elements of due process.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 4:47 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of
> > trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down
> > the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict
> > than writing down the rules.
>
> Just as Benson I'm writing this as somebody who mentored a whole
> bunch of podlings: early per-project bylawas are a sure sign of trouble
> in my book. Its the same issue as the community that runs a vote for
> every little thing imaginable.
>
> Both tend to create minorities and really get in the way of true consensus
> long term.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of
> trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down
> the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict
> than writing down the rules.
Just as Benson I'm writing this as somebody who mentored a whole
bunch of podlings: early per-project bylawas are a sure sign of trouble
in my book. Its the same issue as the community that runs a vote for
every little thing imaginable.
Both tend to create minorities and really get in the way of true consensus
long term.
Thanks,
Roman.
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Almost every board resolution to create a project contains...
RESOLVED, that the initial PROJECT PMC be and hereby is
tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
encourage open development and increased participation in the
PROJECT; and be it further
-----Original Message-----
From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargulies@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 4:13 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Writing as someone who has mentored a squad of podlings, I do not believe that there is any requirement for any project to ever adopt any bylaws at all. I was never involved where the board ask for bylaws, and I'm faintly curious as to how that ever came to pass. The normal process is for podlings to simply apply standard ASF procedures to manage code and community. I view the Foundation CoC as part of that.
In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict than writing down the rules.
However, I recognized that some communities have some inescapable stresses due to conflicting commercial interests, and some bylaws early can be a way to head off drama later.
However, I can't imagine anyone thinking that the Foundation CoC fails to apply in the absence of a set of bylaws. I also can't imagine any person thinking that a set of bylaws that doesn't happen to mention the CoC somehow excludes it. Project are part of the ASF. They don't have independent legal existence. Their 'bylaws' are not corporate, legal, bylaws, they are just a memorialization of their policies. They don't have to be comprehensive.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to
> the official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the
> bylaws is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his
> assumption? Or does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere
>> as a part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
>>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>>
>>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects
>>> (at least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier
>>> posting) to establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding
>>> clause for being a project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be
>>> derived from that is that the project that don't comply can't be an
>>> Apache project until that condition is met.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if
>>> > the
>>> Apache
>>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in
>>> > the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > ________________________________
>>> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
>>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> > (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>> >
>>> > Off list?
>>> >
>>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't distill
>>> > anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>>> >
>>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to
>>> > the community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the
>>> > Community over
>>> Code
>>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Pierre
>>> >
>>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
>>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>>> volgende
>>> > geschreven:
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct
>>> > > was
>>> not
>>> > > kind here.
>>> > >
>>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing
>>> > > paperwork
>>> (or
>>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN
>>> > > TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
>>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> (spin-off
>>> > > of Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading
>>> > > passport
>>> (our
>>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>>> > situations
>>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>>> default
>>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to
>>> > > write
>>> > code
>>> > > instead.
>>> > >
>>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the
>>> > > spirit
>>> of
>>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the
>>> > > PMC
>>> (and
>>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the
>>> > > documentation
>>> is
>>> > > there. E.g.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model
>>> .html
>>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>> > >
>>> > > Ross
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> > > (spin-off
>>> of
>>> > > Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing
>>> > > >> office
>>> > policing
>>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it
>>> > > >> in
>>> their
>>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not
>>> > > >> to
>>> > > incorporate
>>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>> > > >>
>>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to
>>> > > > make
>>> sure
>>> > > that
>>> > > > exactly this happened.
>>> > >
>>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the
>>> > > board for
>>> > this
>>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
>>> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which
>>> > > without knowing
>>> > details
>>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked
>>> > > also at
>>> the
>>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>>> graduating
>>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of
>>> > > bylaws or
>>> > not.
>>> > >
>>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of
>>> > > conduct of
>>> the
>>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today -
>>> > > that
>>> IPMC
>>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
>>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that
>>> > > they consider it optional.
>>> > >
>>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan
>>> > > till
>>> May
>>> > is
>>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as
>>> > > a
>>> TLP)
>>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to
>>> > > now
>>> those
>>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache
>>> > > Aurora,
>>> > Apache
>>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a
>>> > > set
>>> of
>>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>>> > >
>>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects
>>> > > has
>>> led to
>>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making
>>> > > it
>>> harder
>>> > to
>>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while
>>> > > being
>>> under
>>> > the
>>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct
>>> > > and the Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how
>>> > > the
>>> contributors
>>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to
>>> > > favour
>>> a
>>> > > few....
>>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>>> defining
>>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about
>>> > > how the project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of
>>> > > contributors visavis privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>>> > >
>>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in
>>> > > the projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't
>>> > > the board
>>> keep
>>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>>> > project's
>>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>>> > >
>>> > > Best regards,
>>> > >
>>> > > Pierre Smits
>>> > >
>>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for
>>> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &
>>> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Hi,
>>> > > >
>>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few
>>> > > > paragraphs
>>> of
>>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > -Bertrand
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> > > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of
>>> > > > > conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software
>>> > > > > Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of
>>> > > > > conduct
>>> > which
>>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is
>>> > > > > codified in
>>> the
>>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,
>>> > > > > or
>>> > claims
>>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any
>>> > > > > Foundation-related activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from
>>> > > > > here
>>> on)
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Pierre Smits
>>> >
>>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for
>>> > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &
>>> > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Writing as someone who has mentored a squad of podlings, I do not
believe that there is any requirement for any project to ever adopt
any bylaws at all. I was never involved where the board ask for
bylaws, and I'm faintly curious as to how that ever came to pass. The
normal process is for podlings to simply apply standard ASF procedures
to manage code and community. I view the Foundation CoC as part of
that.
In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of
trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down
the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict
than writing down the rules.
However, I recognized that some communities have some inescapable
stresses due to conflicting commercial interests, and some bylaws
early can be a way to head off drama later.
However, I can't imagine anyone thinking that the Foundation CoC fails
to apply in the absence of a set of bylaws. I also can't imagine any
person thinking that a set of bylaws that doesn't happen to mention
the CoC somehow excludes it. Project are part of the ASF. They don't
have independent legal existence. Their 'bylaws' are not corporate,
legal, bylaws, they are just a memorialization of their policies. They
don't have to be comprehensive.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
> official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
> is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
> does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
>> part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
>>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>>> of Better specifying....)
>>>
>>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
>>> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
>>> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
>>> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
>>> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
>>> condition is met.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
>>> Apache
>>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
>>> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > ________________________________
>>> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
>>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
>>> > Better specifying....)
>>> >
>>> > Off list?
>>> >
>>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
>>> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>>> >
>>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
>>> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
>>> Code
>>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Pierre
>>> >
>>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
>>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>>> volgende
>>> > geschreven:
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
>>> not
>>> > > kind here.
>>> > >
>>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork
>>> (or
>>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
>>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> (spin-off
>>> > > of Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
>>> (our
>>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>>> > situations
>>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>>> default
>>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
>>> > code
>>> > > instead.
>>> > >
>>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
>>> of
>>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
>>> (and
>>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation
>>> is
>>> > > there. E.g.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
>>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>> > >
>>> > > Ross
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>>> of
>>> > > Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
>>> > policing
>>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
>>> their
>>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
>>> > > incorporate
>>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>> > > >>
>>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
>>> sure
>>> > > that
>>> > > > exactly this happened.
>>> > >
>>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
>>> > this
>>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
>>> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
>>> > details
>>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at
>>> the
>>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>>> graduating
>>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
>>> > not.
>>> > >
>>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of
>>> the
>>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
>>> IPMC
>>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
>>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
>>> > > consider it optional.
>>> > >
>>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till
>>> May
>>> > is
>>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
>>> TLP)
>>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
>>> those
>>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
>>> > Apache
>>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set
>>> of
>>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>>> > >
>>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
>>> led to
>>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
>>> harder
>>> > to
>>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
>>> under
>>> > the
>>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
>>> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
>>> contributors
>>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour
>>> a
>>> > > few....
>>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>>> defining
>>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
>>> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
>>> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>>> > >
>>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
>>> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
>>> keep
>>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>>> > project's
>>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>>> > >
>>> > > Best regards,
>>> > >
>>> > > Pierre Smits
>>> > >
>>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> > > Services and Retail & Trade
>>> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Hi,
>>> > > >
>>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs
>>> of
>>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > -Bertrand
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> > > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
>>> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
>>> > which
>>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in
>>> the
>>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
>>> > claims
>>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
>>> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here
>>> on)
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Pierre Smits
>>> >
>>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> > Services and Retail & Trade
>>> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On Sunday, July 5, 2015, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
> official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
> is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
> does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
I did not mean that a oodling should create its own bylaws, but simply use
default and follow the ASF bylaws. Bylaws in projects should be (and are)
an exception.
rgds
jan i
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
> > part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> >> of Better specifying....)
> >>
> >> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
> >> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
> >> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
> >> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
> >> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
> >> condition is met.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> >> Apache
> >> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> >> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
> >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of
> >> > Better specifying....)
> >> >
> >> > Off list?
> >> >
> >> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> >> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >> >
> >> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> >> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
> >> Code
> >> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> >
> >> > Pierre
> >> >
> >> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>
> >> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;>');>> het
> >> volgende
> >> > geschreven:
> >> >
> >> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
> >> not
> >> > > kind here.
> >> > >
> >> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing
> paperwork
> >> (or
> >> > > the electronic equivalent).
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > > ________________________________
> >> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> >> (spin-off
> >> > > of Better specifying....)
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
> >> (our
> >> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> >> > situations
> >> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
> >> default
> >> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to
> write
> >> > code
> >> > > instead.
> >> > >
> >> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
> >> of
> >> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
> >> (and
> >> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the
> documentation
> >> is
> >> > > there. E.g.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> >> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >> > >
> >> > > Ross
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > > ________________________________
> >> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> >> of
> >> > > Better specifying....)
> >> > >
> >> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> >> > policing
> >> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
> >> their
> >> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> >> > > incorporate
> >> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >> > > >>
> >> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
> >> sure
> >> > > that
> >> > > > exactly this happened.
> >> > >
> >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> >> > this
> >> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> podling
> >> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> >> > details
> >> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> >> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also
> at
> >> the
> >> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> >> graduating
> >> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws
> or
> >> > not.
> >> > >
> >> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct
> of
> >> the
> >> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> >> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
> >> IPMC
> >> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> >> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> >> > > consider it optional.
> >> > >
> >> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till
> >> May
> >> > is
> >> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
> >> TLP)
> >> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
> >> those
> >> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> >> > Apache
> >> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> >> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set
> >> of
> >> > > bylaws at all by the board.
> >> > >
> >> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
> >> led to
> >> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> >> harder
> >> > to
> >> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> >> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
> >> under
> >> > the
> >> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and
> the
> >> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
> >> contributors
> >> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to
> favour
> >> a
> >> > > few....
> >> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> >> defining
> >> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how
> the
> >> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> >> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> >> > >
> >> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> >> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
> >> keep
> >> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> >> > project's
> >> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> >> > >
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > >
> >> > > Pierre Smits
> >> > >
> >> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> >> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> >> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few
> paragraphs
> >> of
> >> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -Bertrand
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> >> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> >> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private
> mailing
> >> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> >> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> >> > which
> >> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified
> in
> >> the
> >> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> >> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> >> > claims
> >> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> >> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any
> role.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here
> >> on)
> >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Pierre Smits
> >> >
> >> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> > Services and Retail & Trade
> >> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
--
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
> part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>> of Better specifying....)
>>
>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
>> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
>> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
>> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
>> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
>> condition is met.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
>> Apache
>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
>> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>> >
>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
>> > Better specifying....)
>> >
>> > Off list?
>> >
>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
>> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>> >
>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
>> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
>> Code
>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>> volgende
>> > geschreven:
>> >
>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
>> not
>> > > kind here.
>> > >
>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>> > >
>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork
>> (or
>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > > ________________________________
>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>> (spin-off
>> > > of Better specifying....)
>> > >
>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
>> (our
>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>> > situations
>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>> default
>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
>> > code
>> > > instead.
>> > >
>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
>> of
>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
>> (and
>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>> > >
>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation
>> is
>> > > there. E.g.
>> > >
>> >
>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>> > >
>> > > Ross
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > > ________________________________
>> > > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
>> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>> of
>> > > Better specifying....)
>> > >
>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
>> > policing
>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
>> their
>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
>> > > incorporate
>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>> > > >>
>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
>> sure
>> > > that
>> > > > exactly this happened.
>> > >
>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
>> > this
>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
>> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
>> > details
>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at
>> the
>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>> graduating
>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
>> > not.
>> > >
>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of
>> the
>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
>> IPMC
>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
>> > > consider it optional.
>> > >
>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till
>> May
>> > is
>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
>> TLP)
>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
>> those
>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
>> > Apache
>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set
>> of
>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>> > >
>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
>> led to
>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
>> harder
>> > to
>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
>> under
>> > the
>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
>> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
>> contributors
>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour
>> a
>> > > few....
>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>> defining
>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
>> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
>> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>> > >
>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
>> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
>> keep
>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>> > project's
>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Pierre Smits
>> > >
>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> > > Services and Retail & Trade
>> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> > > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi,
>> > > >
>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs
>> of
>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>> > > >
>> > > > -Bertrand
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> > > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
>> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
>> > which
>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in
>> the
>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
>> > claims
>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
>> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here
>> on)
>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pierre Smits
>> >
>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> > Services and Retail & Trade
>> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>> >
>>
>
>
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
It's my opinion based on accepted practice (and the way I and fellow directors addressed non-technical disputes taken to the board). We've been operating like this since day one. Most project bye laws (that I've read) acknowledge the. E.g.
Forrest: For more information about the way that Apache projects operate, please refer to the ASF foundation and ASF developer sections of the ASF website, including the ASF ByLaws and the How it works document, the FAQs about the Foundation, and the Incubator project.
Hive: Hive is typical of Apache projects in that it operates under a set of principles, known collectively as the 'Apache Way'. If you are new to Apache development, please refer to the Incubator Project for more information on how Apache projects operate.
Looking specifically at a code of conduct, the foundation has one and projects are expected to adopt it, or define something similar. It's part of the Apache Way. Note the code is deliberately written to allow appropriate flexibility for such a complex topic.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 3:46 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>
> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects
> (at least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting)
> to establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for
> being a project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from
> that is that the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project
> until that condition is met.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> Apache
> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in
> > the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> > (spin-off of Better specifying....)
> >
> > Off list?
> >
> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't distill
> > anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >
> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to
> > the community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community
> > over Code aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
> volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct
> > > was not kind here.
> > >
> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing
> > > paperwork
> (or
> > > the electronic equivalent).
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN
> > > TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> > > of Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading
> > > passport
> (our
> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> > situations
> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
> > > default applies. Most projects are happy with the default and
> > > prefer to write
> > code
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the
> > > spirit of the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can
> > > turn to the PMC
> (and
> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> > >
> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the
> > > documentation
> is
> > > there. E.g.
> > >
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.h
> tml
> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> > > (spin-off
> of
> > > Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> > policing
> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
> their
> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > > incorporate
> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > > >>
> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to
> > > > make
> sure
> > > that
> > > > exactly this happened.
> > >
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> > > for
> > this
> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > > knowing
> > details
> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also
> > > at
> the
> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> graduating
> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of
> > > bylaws or
> > not.
> > >
> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct
> > > of
> the
> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today -
> > > that
> IPMC
> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that
> > > they consider it optional.
> > >
> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan
> > > till May
> > is
> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
> > > TLP) where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up
> > > to now
> those
> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache
> > > Aurora,
> > Apache
> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a
> > > set of bylaws at all by the board.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
> > > led
> to
> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> harder
> > to
> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
> > > under
> > the
> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and
> > > the Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
> > > contributors interact. About how to do just to all contributors,
> > > not how to favour a few....
> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> defining
> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how
> > > the project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors
> > > visavis privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> > >
> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in
> > > the projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the
> > > board
> keep
> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> > project's
> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for
> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &
> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few
> > > > paragraphs
> of
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of
> > > > > conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software
> > > > > Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of
> > > > > conduct
> > which
> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified
> > > > > in
> the
> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,
> > > > > or
> > claims
> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > > >
> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from
> > > > > here on)
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
> condition is met.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> Apache
> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> > Better specifying....)
> >
> > Off list?
> >
> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >
> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
> volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> > > kind here.
> > >
> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork
> (or
> > > the electronic equivalent).
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> > > of Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
> (our
> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> > situations
> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
> > code
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
> (and
> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> > >
> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation
> is
> > > there. E.g.
> > >
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of
> > > Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> > policing
> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
> their
> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > > incorporate
> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > > >>
> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
> sure
> > > that
> > > > exactly this happened.
> > >
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> > this
> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> > details
> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at
> the
> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> graduating
> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
> > not.
> > >
> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of
> the
> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
> IPMC
> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> > > consider it optional.
> > >
> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May
> > is
> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
> those
> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> > Apache
> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> > > bylaws at all by the board.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led
> to
> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> harder
> > to
> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under
> > the
> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> > > few....
> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> defining
> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> > >
> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
> keep
> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> > project's
> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs
> of
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> > which
> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in
> the
> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> > claims
> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > > >
> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
>
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
condition is met.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the Apache
> Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> Better specifying....)
>
> Off list?
>
> I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>
> So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
> aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> > kind here.
> >
> > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> >
> > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or
> > the electronic equivalent).
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> > of Better specifying....)
> >
> > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our
> > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> situations
> > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
> code
> > instead.
> >
> > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and
> > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> >
> > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is
> > there. E.g.
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >
> > Ross
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> > Better specifying....)
> >
> > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> policing
> > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > incorporate
> > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > >>
> > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> > that
> > > exactly this happened.
> >
> > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> this
> > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> details
> > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
> not.
> >
> > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> > consider it optional.
> >
> > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May
> is
> > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> Apache
> > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> > bylaws at all by the board.
> >
> > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder
> to
> > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under
> the
> > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> > few....
> > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> >
> > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> project's
> > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > >
> > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > >
> > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
condition is met.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the Apache
> Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> Better specifying....)
>
> Off list?
>
> I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>
> So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
> aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> > kind here.
> >
> > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> >
> > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or
> > the electronic equivalent).
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> > of Better specifying....)
> >
> > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our
> > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> situations
> > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
> code
> > instead.
> >
> > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and
> > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> >
> > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is
> > there. E.g.
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >
> > Ross
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> > Better specifying....)
> >
> > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> policing
> > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > incorporate
> > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > >>
> > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> > that
> > > exactly this happened.
> >
> > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> this
> > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> details
> > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
> not.
> >
> > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> > consider it optional.
> >
> > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May
> is
> > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> Apache
> > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> > bylaws at all by the board.
> >
> > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder
> to
> > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under
> the
> > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> > few....
> > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> >
> > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> project's
> > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > >
> > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > >
> > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the Apache Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Off list?
I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
Best regards,
Pierre
Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het volgende
geschreven:
> Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> kind here.
>
> First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or
> the electronic equivalent).
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our
> the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations
> in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code
> instead.
>
> Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and
> if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>
> It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is
> there. E.g.
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> Ross
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> Better specifying....)
>
> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few....
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >
> > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >
>
--
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Off list?
I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
Best regards,
Pierre
Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het volgende
geschreven:
> Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> kind here.
>
> First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or
> the electronic equivalent).
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our
> the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations
> in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code
> instead.
>
> Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and
> if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>
> It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is
> there. E.g.
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> Ross
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> Better specifying....)
>
> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few....
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >
> > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >
>
--
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not kind here.
First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or the electronic equivalent).
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<ma...@microsoft.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code instead.
Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is there. E.g. http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
Ross
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
>> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
>> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
incorporate
>> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>
> Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
that
> exactly this happened.
Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
consider it optional.
What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
bylaws at all by the board.
It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
tell a unified story to the outside world...
The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
few....
The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >
> > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> >
> > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code instead.
Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is there. E.g. http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
Ross
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
>> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
>> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
incorporate
>> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>
> Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
that
> exactly this happened.
Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
consider it optional.
What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
bylaws at all by the board.
It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
tell a unified story to the outside world...
The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
few....
The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >
> > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> >
> > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by zinhtut aung <zi...@gmail.com>.
https://plus.google.com/+GoogleArtProject
On 6 Jul 2015 23:45, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, Martin, I read that too a while ago, and I can't regard it as
> anything else but just a viewpoint expressed by someone who is reacting to
> a posting of someone else....
>
> Such an expression neither makes it a policy of the ASF, nor justifies why
> the board, when voting on a podling wishing graduating to TLP, keep
> something going on that is considered by some as disgusting or as adding no
> value by others.
>
> If it were as simple as some regard this aspect of doing the right thing,
> then a simple vote would solve it (for the time being) and both board and
> Incubator could adjust their procedures and instructions to all
> accordingly.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> > > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> > > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > > applicable to other projects?
> >
> > Here's the historical rationale for per-project bylaws, which explains
> > why it's in the TLP resolution template:
> >
> > http://s.apache.org/why-project-bylaws
> >
> > Apache doesn't have a single set of project bylaws/guidelines because
> > we want projects to be self-governing...
> >
> > Speaking with the benefit of hindsight not available to those who
> > blazed the trail, my assessment is that while the idea of making
> > projects think about governance is laudable, drafting bylaws is too
> > difficult a problem to be tackled by each new TLP. Minute drafting
> > errors cause large problems.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Actually, Martin, I read that too a while ago, and I can't regard it as
anything else but just a viewpoint expressed by someone who is reacting to
a posting of someone else....
Such an expression neither makes it a policy of the ASF, nor justifies why
the board, when voting on a podling wishing graduating to TLP, keep
something going on that is considered by some as disgusting or as adding no
value by others.
If it were as simple as some regard this aspect of doing the right thing,
then a simple vote would solve it (for the time being) and both board and
Incubator could adjust their procedures and instructions to all accordingly.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > applicable to other projects?
>
> Here's the historical rationale for per-project bylaws, which explains
> why it's in the TLP resolution template:
>
> http://s.apache.org/why-project-bylaws
>
> Apache doesn't have a single set of project bylaws/guidelines because
> we want projects to be self-governing...
>
> Speaking with the benefit of hindsight not available to those who
> blazed the trail, my assessment is that while the idea of making
> projects think about governance is laudable, drafting bylaws is too
> difficult a problem to be tackled by each new TLP. Minute drafting
> errors cause large problems.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> applicable to other projects?
Here's the historical rationale for per-project bylaws, which explains
why it's in the TLP resolution template:
http://s.apache.org/why-project-bylaws
Apache doesn't have a single set of project bylaws/guidelines because
we want projects to be self-governing...
Speaking with the benefit of hindsight not available to those who
blazed the trail, my assessment is that while the idea of making
projects think about governance is laudable, drafting bylaws is too
difficult a problem to be tackled by each new TLP. Minute drafting
errors cause large problems.
Marvin Humphrey
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by zinhtut aung <zi...@gmail.com>.
On 6 Jul 2015 20:26, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This thread started with a discussion of the CoC. The premise of the
> thread was this: that counter-CoC behavior might emerge on a project,
> and that the project might tolerate, or even celebrate, that behavior,
> for lack of an explicit bylaw explicitly adopting the CoC.
>
> This premise is wrong. The CoC applies to everyone at Apache, inside
> the established projects or outside (such as on this mailing list). If
> any reader of this mailing list observes behavior contrary to the CoC,
> that member should address it, escalating to the board if needed.
>
> If folks want to continue to exchange arguments about the value, or
> lack thereof, of per-project bylaws on other accounts, I wish they'd
> change the subject line.
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
This thread started with a discussion of the CoC. The premise of the
thread was this: that counter-CoC behavior might emerge on a project,
and that the project might tolerate, or even celebrate, that behavior,
for lack of an explicit bylaw explicitly adopting the CoC.
This premise is wrong. The CoC applies to everyone at Apache, inside
the established projects or outside (such as on this mailing list). If
any reader of this mailing list observes behavior contrary to the CoC,
that member should address it, escalating to the board if needed.
If folks want to continue to exchange arguments about the value, or
lack thereof, of per-project bylaws on other accounts, I wish they'd
change the subject line.
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On Monday, July 6, 2015, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 July 2015 at 10:24, jan i <jani@apache.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> >> hope you recover from it soon.
> >>
> >
> > Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limiting
> > voting etc,
> > I know what a PITA project bylaws can be.
> >
> > We fought for about 6 month to get the bylaws changed, to something there
> > was
> > total consensus about. The problem was that the bylaws could only be
> changed
> > with 2/3 +1 of all PMC, which is quite hard to reach when 1/2 of the PMC
> no
> > longer
> > are active.
>
> As I recall, the main problem was that the local project bylaws had
> been badly drafted, and were not clear, so needed to be changed.
the bylaws was very clear and understandable but drafted in a time where
LABS was a active project.
>
>
> > Bylaws can in some special cases help a project, but really should not be
> > necesary. If
> > our bylaws and policies are unprecise we should do something centrally
> and
> > not remedy
> > this problem in 200 projects.
>
> Indeed. Had the local project bylaws not existed, I suspect there
> would have been no problem in the case to which Jan refers.
Correct actually LABS is a good example of a project where the bylaws are
not needed.
rgds
jan i
>
> > rgds
> > jan I.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <brane@apache.org
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> >> > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> >> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> >> > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of
> conduct.
> >> >
> >> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each
> project
> >> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> >> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> >> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> >> > applicable to other projects?
> >> >
> >> > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community,
> in
> >> > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >> >
> >> > -- Brane
> >> >
> >>
>
--
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Or not! Some still believe that it is 'consensus' that is required for any
procedural issues and think their -1 vote vetoes a change. That applies not
only to on and off-boarding of new PMC Members and committers, but also to
other policy changes.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:57 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 July 2015 at 10:24, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> >> hope you recover from it soon.
> >>
> >
> > Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limiting
> > voting etc,
> > I know what a PITA project bylaws can be.
> >
> > We fought for about 6 month to get the bylaws changed, to something there
> > was
> > total consensus about. The problem was that the bylaws could only be
> changed
> > with 2/3 +1 of all PMC, which is quite hard to reach when 1/2 of the PMC
> no
> > longer
> > are active.
>
> As I recall, the main problem was that the local project bylaws had
> been badly drafted, and were not clear, so needed to be changed.
>
>
> > Bylaws can in some special cases help a project, but really should not be
> > necesary. If
> > our bylaws and policies are unprecise we should do something centrally
> and
> > not remedy
> > this problem in 200 projects.
>
> Indeed. Had the local project bylaws not existed, I suspect there
> would have been no problem in the case to which Jan refers.
>
> > rgds
> > jan I.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> >> > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> >> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> >> > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of
> conduct.
> >> >
> >> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each
> project
> >> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> >> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> >> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> >> > applicable to other projects?
> >> >
> >> > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community,
> in
> >> > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >> >
> >> > -- Brane
> >> >
> >>
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 6 July 2015 at 10:24, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
>> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
>> hope you recover from it soon.
>>
>
> Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limiting
> voting etc,
> I know what a PITA project bylaws can be.
>
> We fought for about 6 month to get the bylaws changed, to something there
> was
> total consensus about. The problem was that the bylaws could only be changed
> with 2/3 +1 of all PMC, which is quite hard to reach when 1/2 of the PMC no
> longer
> are active.
As I recall, the main problem was that the local project bylaws had
been badly drafted, and were not clear, so needed to be changed.
> Bylaws can in some special cases help a project, but really should not be
> necesary. If
> our bylaws and policies are unprecise we should do something centrally and
> not remedy
> this problem in 200 projects.
Indeed. Had the local project bylaws not existed, I suspect there
would have been no problem in the case to which Jan refers.
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
>> > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
>> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
>> > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>> >
>> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
>> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
>> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
>> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
>> > applicable to other projects?
>> >
>> > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
>> > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
>> >
>> > -- Brane
>> >
>>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
And you can read 'determination' as well as 'perception'.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines
> has led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects
> to define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and
> not followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
>
> It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing
> it the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> down at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good
>> > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
>> guidelines
>> > of the ASF...
>>
>> But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
>> use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
>> differently.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Summarization != representation, Ross. I have faith that you'll be better
at summarising than any of the summarisation tools available.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Huh? How am I able to represent your view as well as you can?
>
> If you want me to restate *my* view I can do that by quoting my own view I
> will quote my summary from earlier in this thread: "In the absence of
> [project] bye-laws the defaults apply. "
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 6, 2015 11:09 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> I am confident, Ross, that you are equally capable of doing that. So why
> don't you give it a go?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > So can you summarize what you are saying.
> >
> > Sent from Surface
> >
> > From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: ?Monday?, ?July? ?6?, ?2015 ?10?:?47? ?AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > Hi Konstantin,
> >
> > No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no,
> > not a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got
> > that impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the
> > handle) by reading the postings of others.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
> > volgende geschreven:
> >
> > > Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying
> > > that imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some
> > > rare cases
> > of
> > > established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> > > representation of the point of this discussion?
> > >
> > > I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the
> > > law-less land, thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came
> > > to the wrong conclusions.
> > >
> > > With best regards,
> > > Cos
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF
> > > > guidelines
> > > has
> > > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established
> > > > projects
> > to
> > > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the
> > > > project and
> > > not
> > > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> > > >
> > > > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing,
> > doing
> > > it
> > > > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake
> > > > falling
> > > down
> > > > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Pierre Smits
> > > >
> > > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for
> > > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &
> > > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity
> > > > > > of
> > > good
> > > > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> > > guidelines
> > > > > > of the ASF...
> > > > >
> > > > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those
> > > > > guidelines and use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely
> > > > > necessary to do things differently.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Bertrand
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
>
RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Huh? How am I able to represent your view as well as you can?
If you want me to restate *my* view I can do that by quoting my own view I will quote my summary from earlier in this thread: "In the absence of [project] bye-laws the defaults apply. "
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 6, 2015 11:09 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
I am confident, Ross, that you are equally capable of doing that. So why don't you give it a go?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> So can you summarize what you are saying.
>
> Sent from Surface
>
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: ?Monday?, ?July? ?6?, ?2015 ?10?:?47? ?AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no,
> not a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got
> that impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the
> handle) by reading the postings of others.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> > Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying
> > that imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some
> > rare cases
> of
> > established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> > representation of the point of this discussion?
> >
> > I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the
> > law-less land, thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came
> > to the wrong conclusions.
> >
> > With best regards,
> > Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF
> > > guidelines
> > has
> > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established
> > > projects
> to
> > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the
> > > project and
> > not
> > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> > >
> > > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing,
> doing
> > it
> > > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake
> > > falling
> > down
> > > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for
> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &
> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <
> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity
> > > > > of
> > good
> > > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> > guidelines
> > > > > of the ASF...
> > > >
> > > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those
> > > > guidelines and use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely
> > > > necessary to do things differently.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
I am confident, Ross, that you are equally capable of doing that. So why
don't you give it a go?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> So can you summarize what you are saying.
>
> Sent from Surface
>
> From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: ?Monday?, ?July? ?6?, ?2015 ?10?:?47? ?AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no, not
> a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that
> impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle) by
> reading the postings of others.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> > Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
> > imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases
> of
> > established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> > representation of
> > the point of this discussion?
> >
> > I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less
> > land,
> > thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong
> > conclusions.
> >
> > With best regards,
> > Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines
> > has
> > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects
> to
> > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and
> > not
> > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> > >
> > > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing,
> doing
> > it
> > > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> > down
> > > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <
> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of
> > good
> > > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> > guidelines
> > > > > of the ASF...
> > > >
> > > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> > > > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> > > > differently.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
So can you summarize what you are saying.
Sent from Surface
From: Pierre Smits<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: ?Monday?, ?July? ?6?, ?2015 ?10?:?47? ?AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Hi Konstantin,
No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no, not
a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that
impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle) by
reading the postings of others.
Best regards,
Pierre
Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
volgende geschreven:
> Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
> imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases of
> established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> representation of
> the point of this discussion?
>
> I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less
> land,
> thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong
> conclusions.
>
> With best regards,
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines
> has
> > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
> > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and
> not
> > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> >
> > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing
> it
> > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> down
> > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of
> good
> > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> guidelines
> > > > of the ASF...
> > >
> > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> > > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> > > differently.
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
>
--
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
No worries, Konstantin. I won't hold that against you.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> Just to point to the source of my confusiony. My impression came from this
> part:
>
> > > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF
> guidelines has
> > > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established
> projects to
> > > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project
> and not
> > > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
>
> The subsequent colorful passage about the snowflake led me to believe that
> you're indeed found a way to prevent said snowflake from landing on the
> top of
> the mountain. Looks like my interpretation of the meaning of it was quite
> suboptimal. Thanks for the explanation, Pierre.
>
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 08:47PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > Hi Konstantin,
> >
> > No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no,
> not
> > a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that
> > impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle)
> by
> > reading the postings of others.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
> > volgende geschreven:
> >
> > > Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
> > > imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare
> cases of
> > > established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> > > representation of
> > > the point of this discussion?
> > >
> > > I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less
> > > land,
> > > thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong
> > > conclusions.
> > >
> > > With best regards,
> > > Cos
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF
> guidelines has
> > > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established
> projects to
> > > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project
> and not
> > > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> > > >
> > > > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing,
> doing
> > > it
> > > > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> > > down
> > > > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Pierre Smits
> > > >
> > > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <
> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of
> > > good
> > > > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> > > guidelines
> > > > > > of the ASF...
> > > > >
> > > > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines
> and
> > > > > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do
> things
> > > > > differently.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Bertrand
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
Just to point to the source of my confusiony. My impression came from this part:
> > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines has
> > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
> > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and not
> > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
The subsequent colorful passage about the snowflake led me to believe that
you're indeed found a way to prevent said snowflake from landing on the top of
the mountain. Looks like my interpretation of the meaning of it was quite
suboptimal. Thanks for the explanation, Pierre.
Cos
On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 08:47PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no, not
> a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that
> impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle) by
> reading the postings of others.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> > Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
> > imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases of
> > established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> > representation of
> > the point of this discussion?
> >
> > I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less
> > land,
> > thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong
> > conclusions.
> >
> > With best regards,
> > Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines has
> > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
> > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and not
> > > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> > >
> > > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing
> > it
> > > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> > down
> > > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of
> > good
> > > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> > guidelines
> > > > > of the ASF...
> > > >
> > > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> > > > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> > > > differently.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi Konstantin,
No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no, not
a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that
impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle) by
reading the postings of others.
Best regards,
Pierre
Op maandag 6 juli 2015 heeft Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> het
volgende geschreven:
> Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
> imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases of
> established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct
> representation of
> the point of this discussion?
>
> I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less
> land,
> thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong
> conclusions.
>
> With best regards,
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines
> has
> > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
> > define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and
> not
> > followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
> >
> > It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing
> it
> > the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling
> down
> > at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of
> good
> > > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic
> guidelines
> > > > of the ASF...
> > >
> > > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> > > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> > > differently.
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
>
--
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that
imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases of
established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct representation of
the point of this discussion?
I am not as eloquent as you're in painting the picture of the law-less land,
thus please accept my apologies in advance if I came to the wrong conclusions.
With best regards,
Cos
On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines has
> led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
> define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and not
> followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
>
> It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing it
> the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling down
> at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good
> > > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines
> > > of the ASF...
> >
> > But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> > use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> > differently.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines has
led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to
define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and not
followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project.
It is such that makes the determination of 'doing the right thing, doing it
the right way' less credible in stead of more. The show flake falling down
at the top of the mountain creates the avalanche in the valley.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good
> > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines
> > of the ASF...
>
> But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
> use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
> differently.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good
> per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines
> of the ASF...
But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and
use the default bylaws, unless it's absolutely necessary to do things
differently.
-Bertrand
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good
per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines
of the ASF.
Bylaws define the parameters of how processes are be executed within a
project, when it comes to the procedural aspects. His example given,
regarding the lifetime employment of PMC members shows that a definitive
description of how onboarding and ofboarding of PMC Members takes place in
the project could have saved it a lot of time and trouble.
The incubation process is the right place to thing about these aspects as
mentors of can could provide the insights and experience in order to avoid
creating either bylaw elements that are either to vague to apply or to
complex to uphold that will lead to (unnecessary and avoidable) heated
discussions that hurt the project more than they do good.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:24 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> > statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> > hope you recover from it soon.
> >
>
> Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limiting
> voting etc,
> I know what a PITA project bylaws can be.
>
> We fought for about 6 month to get the bylaws changed, to something there
> was
> total consensus about. The problem was that the bylaws could only be
> changed
> with 2/3 +1 of all PMC, which is quite hard to reach when 1/2 of the PMC no
> longer
> are active.
>
> Bylaws can in some special cases help a project, but really should not be
> necesary. If
> our bylaws and policies are unprecise we should do something centrally and
> not remedy
> this problem in 200 projects.
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> > > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of
> conduct.
> > >
> > > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> > > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> > > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > > applicable to other projects?
> > >
> > > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community,
> in
> > > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> > >
> > > -- Brane
> > >
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> hope you recover from it soon.
>
Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limiting
voting etc,
I know what a PITA project bylaws can be.
We fought for about 6 month to get the bylaws changed, to something there
was
total consensus about. The problem was that the bylaws could only be changed
with 2/3 +1 of all PMC, which is quite hard to reach when 1/2 of the PMC no
longer
are active.
Bylaws can in some special cases help a project, but really should not be
necesary. If
our bylaws and policies are unprecise we should do something centrally and
not remedy
this problem in 200 projects.
rgds
jan I.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> >
> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > applicable to other projects?
> >
> > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
> > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >
> > -- Brane
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Nice. I like proza as well. Before long we'll embark on the path, where we
only see multi-interpretable quotes and we quibble over semantics.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:01 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hopefully you don't mind me helping with a colorful euphemisms here.
> In the words of immortal Tao De Jing
>
> When government is lazy and informal
> The people are kind and honest;
> When government is efficient and severe
> The people are discontented and deceitful.
>
> Cos
>
> On Tue, Jul 07, 2015 at 03:11PM, Branko Čibej wrote:
> > Pierre, I could find any number of euphemisms to say the same thing, but
> > I prefer to say what I mean and not beat about the bush.
> >
> > To give you an idea where my disgust comes from: Every project here that
> > I know of that has bylaws about decision-making has some kind of
> > fundamental problem and constant tensions in the community. Now some
> > people may think that extra rules serve to keep problems in check, but
> > IMO they just make things worse.
> >
> > -- Brane
> >
> >
> > On 06.07.2015 23:40, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> > > That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like
> others'
> > > viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause
> > > anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one
> can
> > > denied anyone a right to express their opinions.
> > >
> > > Cos
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 12:10PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> > >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the
> matter. I
> > >> hope you recover from it soon.
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Pierre Smits
> > >>
> > >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > >> Services and Retail & Trade
> > >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > >>>> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> > >>>> this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > >>>> podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > >>>> knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of
> conduct.
> > >>> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each
> project
> > >>> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> > >>> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > >>> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > >>> applicable to other projects?
> > >>>
> > >>> Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF
> community, in
> > >>> other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> > >>>
> > >>> -- Brane
> > >>>
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
Hopefully you don't mind me helping with a colorful euphemisms here.
In the words of immortal Tao De Jing
When government is lazy and informal
The people are kind and honest;
When government is efficient and severe
The people are discontented and deceitful.
Cos
On Tue, Jul 07, 2015 at 03:11PM, Branko Čibej wrote:
> Pierre, I could find any number of euphemisms to say the same thing, but
> I prefer to say what I mean and not beat about the bush.
>
> To give you an idea where my disgust comes from: Every project here that
> I know of that has bylaws about decision-making has some kind of
> fundamental problem and constant tensions in the community. Now some
> people may think that extra rules serve to keep problems in check, but
> IMO they just make things worse.
>
> -- Brane
>
>
> On 06.07.2015 23:40, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> > That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like others'
> > viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause
> > anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one can
> > denied anyone a right to express their opinions.
> >
> > Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 12:10PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> >> hope you recover from it soon.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >>>> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> >>>> this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> >>>> podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> >>>> knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> >>> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> >>> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> >>> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> >>> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> >>> applicable to other projects?
> >>>
> >>> Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
> >>> other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >>>
> >>> -- Brane
> >>>
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
I have done enough. If you feel that is not the case to satisfy you
bureaucratic need, you go ahead and scratch that itch.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Tim,
> >
> > It seems you're rather fond of it.
>
> Huh? I'm not sure what "it" is or why you're making observations about
> what I'm fond of.
>
> > Quite the number of posters in this
> > thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that
> they
> > can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their
> > specific mailing lists.
>
> Umm... that's not how our little do-ocracy works dood. I doubt I'm
> the only one that finds it remarkably unrewarding to help someone who
> has an itch they're unwilling to scratch themselves.
>
> --tim
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> It seems you're rather fond of it.
Huh? I'm not sure what "it" is or why you're making observations about
what I'm fond of.
> Quite the number of posters in this
> thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that they
> can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their
> specific mailing lists.
Umm... that's not how our little do-ocracy works dood. I doubt I'm
the only one that finds it remarkably unrewarding to help someone who
has an itch they're unwilling to scratch themselves.
--tim
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 10 July 2015 at 12:56, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> It seems you're rather fond of it. Quite the number of posters in this
> thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that they
> can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their
> specific mailing lists.
>
I you want board to make a change you need to make a proposal to board@
otherwise it is most likely not going to happen.
rgds
jan i.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Branko,
> > >
> > > I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or
> > > standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding
> > > applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess
> that
> > > when such an element is either to vague or to restrictive so that the
> > > situation becomes untenable to move things forward, the community will
> > find
> > > ways to resolve it.
> > >
> > > This thread is about:
> > >
> > >
> > > - why does the Board tasks projects to create a set of bylaws for
> some
> > > graduating podlings (when so many seem to feel that it doesn't add
> > value);
> > > - and when it does, why doesn't it follow up on the task or request
> > the
> > > VP of the project to report on its progress until the task is
> > completed.
> > >
> > > It has to come from somewhere. It seems to come to light during the
> > > incubation phase. Don't mentors advice properly?
> >
> > I reckon the answer to these questions is simply that we've all
> > realized over a long period of time that project-specific bylaws -
> > while once popular and thought necessary - aren't desirable. We
> > thought they were necessary a decade ago and over the course of time
> > realized not so much. And, while we've all come to that realization,
> > no one has taken the time to change the TLP resolution to reflect
> > that. And that's likely because most of us don't have bureaucratic
> > itches - you apparently do, so why not just ask the incubator
> > PMC/board to drop that paragraph?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --tim
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Tim,
It seems you're rather fond of it. Quite the number of posters in this
thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that they
can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their
specific mailing lists.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Branko,
> >
> > I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or
> > standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding
> > applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess that
> > when such an element is either to vague or to restrictive so that the
> > situation becomes untenable to move things forward, the community will
> find
> > ways to resolve it.
> >
> > This thread is about:
> >
> >
> > - why does the Board tasks projects to create a set of bylaws for some
> > graduating podlings (when so many seem to feel that it doesn't add
> value);
> > - and when it does, why doesn't it follow up on the task or request
> the
> > VP of the project to report on its progress until the task is
> completed.
> >
> > It has to come from somewhere. It seems to come to light during the
> > incubation phase. Don't mentors advice properly?
>
> I reckon the answer to these questions is simply that we've all
> realized over a long period of time that project-specific bylaws -
> while once popular and thought necessary - aren't desirable. We
> thought they were necessary a decade ago and over the course of time
> realized not so much. And, while we've all come to that realization,
> no one has taken the time to change the TLP resolution to reflect
> that. And that's likely because most of us don't have bureaucratic
> itches - you apparently do, so why not just ask the incubator
> PMC/board to drop that paragraph?
>
> Thanks,
> --tim
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Branko,
>
> I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or
> standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding
> applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess that
> when such an element is either to vague or to restrictive so that the
> situation becomes untenable to move things forward, the community will find
> ways to resolve it.
>
> This thread is about:
>
>
> - why does the Board tasks projects to create a set of bylaws for some
> graduating podlings (when so many seem to feel that it doesn't add value);
> - and when it does, why doesn't it follow up on the task or request the
> VP of the project to report on its progress until the task is completed.
>
> It has to come from somewhere. It seems to come to light during the
> incubation phase. Don't mentors advice properly?
I reckon the answer to these questions is simply that we've all
realized over a long period of time that project-specific bylaws -
while once popular and thought necessary - aren't desirable. We
thought they were necessary a decade ago and over the course of time
realized not so much. And, while we've all come to that realization,
no one has taken the time to change the TLP resolution to reflect
that. And that's likely because most of us don't have bureaucratic
itches - you apparently do, so why not just ask the incubator
PMC/board to drop that paragraph?
Thanks,
--tim
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Branko,
I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or
standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding
applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess that
when such an element is either to vague or to restrictive so that the
situation becomes untenable to move things forward, the community will find
ways to resolve it.
This thread is about:
- why does the Board tasks projects to create a set of bylaws for some
graduating podlings (when so many seem to feel that it doesn't add value);
- and when it does, why doesn't it follow up on the task or request the
VP of the project to report on its progress until the task is completed.
It has to come from somewhere. It seems to come to light during the
incubation phase. Don't mentors advice properly?
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> Pierre, I could find any number of euphemisms to say the same thing, but
> I prefer to say what I mean and not beat about the bush.
>
> To give you an idea where my disgust comes from: Every project here that
> I know of that has bylaws about decision-making has some kind of
> fundamental problem and constant tensions in the community. Now some
> people may think that extra rules serve to keep problems in check, but
> IMO they just make things worse.
>
> -- Brane
>
>
> On 06.07.2015 23:40, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> > That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like
> others'
> > viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause
> > anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one can
> > denied anyone a right to express their opinions.
> >
> > Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 12:10PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> >> hope you recover from it soon.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> >>>> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> >>>> this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> >>>> podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> >>>> knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of
> conduct.
> >>> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> >>> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices
> enough
> >>> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> >>> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> >>> applicable to other projects?
> >>>
> >>> Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community,
> in
> >>> other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >>>
> >>> -- Brane
> >>>
>
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
of Better specifying....)
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
Pierre, I could find any number of euphemisms to say the same thing, but
I prefer to say what I mean and not beat about the bush.
To give you an idea where my disgust comes from: Every project here that
I know of that has bylaws about decision-making has some kind of
fundamental problem and constant tensions in the community. Now some
people may think that extra rules serve to keep problems in check, but
IMO they just make things worse.
-- Brane
On 06.07.2015 23:40, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like others'
> viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause
> anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one can
> denied anyone a right to express their opinions.
>
> Cos
>
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 12:10PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
>> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
>> hope you recover from it soon.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
>>>> this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
>>>> podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
>>>> knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>>> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
>>> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
>>> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
>>> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
>>> applicable to other projects?
>>>
>>> Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
>>> other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
>>>
>>> -- Brane
>>>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like others'
viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause
anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one can
denied anyone a right to express their opinions.
Cos
On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at 12:10PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
> hope you recover from it soon.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> > > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> >
> > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> > both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> > applicable to other projects?
> >
> > Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
> > other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
> >
> > -- Brane
> >
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your
statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I
hope you recover from it soon.
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> > knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>
> I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
> needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
> for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
> both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
> applicable to other projects?
>
> Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
> other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
>
> -- Brane
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
of Better specifying....)
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without
> knowing details could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project
needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough
for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are
both a useful extension of these policies and practices /and/ are not
applicable to other projects?
Per-project bylaws are just a tool for fragmenting the ASF community, in
other words, they're a bad idea; paper-shuffling at its most useless.
-- Brane
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
Since Apache Zest (where I am the PMC Chair) was mentioned about called out
by the Board to create by-laws, I got curious to understand where that came
from, since I couldn't recall such order.
In reality, I wrote (copied) it myself in the Board Resolution to create
the project in the first place;
<quote>
RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Zest Project be and hereby
is tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
encourage open development and increased participation in the
Apache Zest Project.
</quote>
My guess is that this is a standard text from way back in time. Last time I
was involved in establishing a new project (Avalon) before Incubator, we
had a pointer to the Jakarta by-laws and I think that was perpetuated to a
point where it become the default position, until Jakarta is retired and
the origin of the "default" is gone.
Pierre may have a point in that the Board Resolution text could be
formulated differently to reflect this "default" and "lazy" position.
//Niclas
On Jul 4, 2015 18:35, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few....
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >
> > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >
>
Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
Better specifying....)
Posted by zinhtut aung <zi...@gmail.com>.
On 5 Jul 2015 00:34, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few....
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >
> > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >
>