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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Eric VERGNAUD <er...@jlynx.com> on 2004/07/04 13:57:29 UTC
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things
to ever happen
> I am inclined to agree but not for the same blanket reasons. I have worked
> on 2 very large C++ projects 30+ developers. And I did with another company
> the same thing with C and Java with 7 people in 1/4 the time. I have never
> touched C++ since. Why if you realise you made a design booboo (As I am sure
> I am not the only one)and it has to be changed ripping C++ apart is a more
> difficult than Java. I know you can say thats down to good OO design but
> really in todays practical terms OO design is low on the priority of getting
> a product out the door. I have changed my doctrine to using small C files
> (less than 1000line) as drivers and then do all the business modelling in
> Java. A system becomes monolithic very quickly unless you are prepared to
> rip it apart and put it back together even before tomorrows deadline. Thats
> why I cannot see myself using C++ again because its too hard keep
> dependencies segregated and the number of layers while trying to do so
> increases. And developers becomes scared of changing anything.
>
> Do you think my argumenr is fundamentally flawed?
It's not. But the use case is. While Java is definitely a good approach for
business apps, it's unacceptable for edited apps, for which "look and feel"
and "raw performance" remain top criterias when the customer makes his
choice.
-------------------------------
Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
Cutting-edge technologies and
services for software companies
web: http://www.jlynx.com
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RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen
Posted by Ivan Jouikov <iv...@comcast.net>.
EH... what about eclipse? What about JBuilder? What about netBeans? All of them are written mostly in Java, except for some native driver code. And they work just fine for me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric VERGNAUD [mailto:eric.vergnaud@jlynx.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 4:57 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst thingsto ever happen
> I am inclined to agree but not for the same blanket reasons. I have worked
> on 2 very large C++ projects 30+ developers. And I did with another company
> the same thing with C and Java with 7 people in 1/4 the time. I have never
> touched C++ since. Why if you realise you made a design booboo (As I am sure
> I am not the only one)and it has to be changed ripping C++ apart is a more
> difficult than Java. I know you can say thats down to good OO design but
> really in todays practical terms OO design is low on the priority of getting
> a product out the door. I have changed my doctrine to using small C files
> (less than 1000line) as drivers and then do all the business modelling in
> Java. A system becomes monolithic very quickly unless you are prepared to
> rip it apart and put it back together even before tomorrows deadline. Thats
> why I cannot see myself using C++ again because its too hard keep
> dependencies segregated and the number of layers while trying to do so
> increases. And developers becomes scared of changing anything.
>
> Do you think my argumenr is fundamentally flawed?
It's not. But the use case is. While Java is definitely a good approach for
business apps, it's unacceptable for edited apps, for which "look and feel"
and "raw performance" remain top criterias when the customer makes his
choice.
-------------------------------
Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
Cutting-edge technologies and
services for software companies
web: http://www.jlynx.com
-------------------------------
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RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst thingsto ever happen
Posted by SH Solutions <sh...@gmx.net>.
Hi
> It's not. But the use case is.
> While Java is definitely a good approach for business apps, it's
unacceptable for edited apps, for which "look and feel" remains a top
criteria when the customer makes his choice.
I totally agree on this, even though there is a lot of progress going on.
> While Java is definitely a good approach for business apps, it's
unacceptable for edited apps, for which "raw performance" remains a top
criteria when the customer makes his choice.
I do not agree on this any more. Java has prooven to be very efficient and
is still improving more and more.
Right now, I would say that java applications (if well written) are at least
half as fast as c applications (also well written).
Suns promotion gives you this:
http://research.sun.com/techrep/2002/smli_tr-2002-114.pdf
I agree, that Sun has interests on saying that java is fast, but read it.
Java is even a lot faster in some areas of computing:
Assume, you have code that needs to allocate lots (thousands) of very small
objects for a short period of time in memory. In C, where you do not have a
garbage collector, you need to free these memory peaces one by one, which is
a burdon for memory management and will slow down things. In Java,
allocation is fast (just one pointer operation) and there is no need to free
things. The garbage collector throws all unreferenced objects of the
youngest collection away at once, not processing them one by one. Obviously,
in such situations, Java has performance advantages. This seems to be a
seldom situation, but it occurs much more often, then you might think.
Especially in Java, where every function, that returns more then one value
needs to return an temporary object. This seemed to be very costly for me,
when I startet using Java, but right now I understood that this is has
constant costs - like in no conservative language.
Regards,
Steffen
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