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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2004/09/19 18:17:41 UTC
RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Gregor,
The Board meeting is coming up this week. I have reminded that the Lenya
request is pending. One thing that I notice, looking at the proposed Lenya
PMC, is the lack of names that the Board is likely to recognize. This can
be a concern because PMCs are part of the legal fabric of the Foundation,
and PMC Chairs are Corporate Officers.
My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
--- Noel
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:51, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
> >> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> >> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> >> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> >
> > I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
> > "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
> > constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
> > community aspects.
>
> Same here.
Stefano, I added u to the PMC proposal, which can be found at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt
You and Steven should make sure to be subscribed to the (P)PMC list if u
are not yet.
It would also be nice if serious, non-technical, and sensitive
discussions are done on (P)PMC list in order to protect our community
(from old ghosts etc).
Thanks for joining the Lenya PMC and for your past and future help.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
> constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
> community aspects.
Same here.
> I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
> the final say about this.
Yep, time will tell.
--
Stefano.
Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
> constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
> community aspects.
Same here.
> I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
> the final say about this.
Yep, time will tell.
--
Stefano.
Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 16:22, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:45, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>
> > OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
> > contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)
>
> Oh no - you're reading me wrong. You should stay!
+1
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> technical commit access doesn't fuel functional or community
> interest. Oh well - we all learn every day, don't we?
... or as Beck is saying in his song from "Eternal Sunshine of a
spotless mind": Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometimes :-)
>
> </Steven>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 18:39, Michael Wechner wrote:
> My opinion is that Apache committers from other projects should
> be treated as any other people, meaning if for instance a Cocoon
> committer is helping on Lenya then he/she shouldn't become an official
> Lenya committer automatically, but rather should also be suggested by
> other committers and votes should be casted.
You're even more severe than I am, but yes, I fully agree. ;-)
> This of course doesn't mean that Cocoon or other Apache committers
> which have access to the Lenya repository should stop helping doing
> things. They are welcome and I hope many of them will become official
> Lenya committers in the future.
My line of thought started from the current situation with the Cocoon
committers having access to Lenya, a situation I've been awkward with
after it became clear that Lenya wouldn't emerge inside Cocoon as a
subproject. It seems to me that such tricks don't really pay off in the
longer term: technical commit access doesn't fuel functional or
community interest. Oh well - we all learn every day, don't we?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> then you should be on the PMC. What I hate is seeing people being
> added just to reach some required threshold
is this the case right now? (I won't comment about the eons ago, because
I did so quite often in the past already ;-) Let's look forward.
> - but I love cross-pollination and -participation.
me too
>
> Are we understanding each other now?
I am not sure to be honest.
My opinion is that Apache committers from other projects should
be treated as any other people, meaning if for instance a Cocoon
committer is helping on Lenya then he/she shouldn't become an official
Lenya committer automatically, but rather should also be suggested by
other committers and votes should be casted.
This of course doesn't mean that Cocoon or other Apache committers which
have access to the Lenya repository should stop helping doing things.
They are welcome and I hope many of them will become official
Lenya committers in the future.
Michi
>
> </Steven>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:45, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
> contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)
Oh no - you're reading me wrong. You should stay! I was just trying to
pinpoint the correct reasoning behind adding someone to the PMC - and
if you say you're here to stay, then you should be on the PMC. What I
hate is seeing people being added just to reach some required threshold
- but I love cross-pollination and -participation.
Are we understanding each other now?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Steven Noels dijo:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 14:51, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>> Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma
>> or
>> so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an
>> active
>> interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else
>> NOT.
>> IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
>> activity.
>
> Meeeep. Having technical commit access to one project or another
> doesn't say anything about PMC membership status, in the sense that PMC
> membership carries the responsibility of providing regular oversight
> over the project's activities. So while 50+ Cocoon folks have technical
> commit karma to Lenya (a rule which was once established because we
> thought Lenya would become a Cocoon sub-project), Cocoon commit access
> shouldn't be considered a selection criterium for or against someone
> sitting on the Lenya PMC: actual participation in the Lenya project is.
> Which seems to be the case here with Antonio, of course, but still.
OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 14:51, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma
> or
> so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an
> active
> interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else
> NOT.
> IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
> activity.
Meeeep. Having technical commit access to one project or another
doesn't say anything about PMC membership status, in the sense that PMC
membership carries the responsibility of providing regular oversight
over the project's activities. So while 50+ Cocoon folks have technical
commit karma to Lenya (a rule which was once established because we
thought Lenya would become a Cocoon sub-project), Cocoon commit access
shouldn't be considered a selection criterium for or against someone
sitting on the Lenya PMC: actual participation in the Lenya project is.
Which seems to be the case here with Antonio, of course, but still.
Let's face this: the initial list of committers for Lenya (many eons
ago) had been overinflated with names of folks who never contributed
visibly to the project. This eventually led to some discussion on the
ASF-aptness of Lenya as a community, which in the end got resolved by
adding a few really active outside committers - you shouldn't
underestimate what you and Thorsten did in that respect. Now, the board
feels uncomfortable about granting Lenya TLP status since few "known
people" are involved in the PMC. I'd say this project should proceed
swiftly, but carefully, with resolving this situation, but this
shouldn't be done by making the same mistake again.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 13:37, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann dijo:
> > On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> >> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >>
> >> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to
> >> TLP
> >> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
> >> >> who
> >> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
> >> >> initial
> >> >> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >> >
> >> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
> >>
> >> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
> >> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
> >> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
> >> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
> >> helpful.
> >>
> >> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> >> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> >> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> >>
> >> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
> >
> > Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
> > PMC, which can be seen at
>
> Can I add myself to the proposal too? I expect to help in lenya too. ;-)
+1, but lemme say this:
Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma or
so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an active
interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else NOT.
IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
activity.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Rolf Kulemann dijo:
> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
>> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to
>> TLP
>> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
>> >> who
>> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
>> >> initial
>> >> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>> >
>> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
>>
>> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
>> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
>> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
>> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
>> helpful.
>>
>> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>>
>> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
>
> Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
> PMC, which can be seen at
Can I add myself to the proposal too? I expect to help in lenya too. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
> >> initial
> >> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
>
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
> helpful.
>
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
PMC, which can be seen at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
> >> initial
> >> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
>
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
> helpful.
>
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
PMC, which can be seen at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
...
>> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS
>> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to
>> the extense that both projects become one!
>
> I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
> documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
> that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common
> components which would lead to consolidation
+1
If Thorsten were right, Forrest qould have been a subproject of Cocoon...
>> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for
>> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and
>> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
-1 (from a Forrest PMC member)
Overlap and interdependency from a code point are not valid reasons for
mixing diverse communities with different goals.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
>
>>
>> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.
>
>
>
> yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet,
> which could be based on Lenya for instance
>
...
>
> I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
> documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
> that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common
> components which would lead to consolidation
>
+1
IMO that would be the way to go. We should *really* have chat with
forrest how we can do that. IMO you are totally right ->Lenya - forrest
pub makes more sense. I suggested the other way round to overcome that
"apache" known names issues (that I really do not see).
>> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for
>> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and
>> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
>
>
>
> to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look
> for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers,
> the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is
> friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is
> constantly growing .... so where is the problem?
>
> Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD
> thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)
>
:)
You are right again. This discussion about the promotion took far too
long. The other thing is that I never have read anything about apache
known names on PMC lists BTW!
thorsten
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
>
> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.
yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet,
which could be based on Lenya for instance
> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS
> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to
> the extense that both projects become one!
I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common
components which would lead to consolidation
> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for
> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and
> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look
for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers,
the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is
friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is
constantly growing .... so where is the problem?
Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD
thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)
Michi
>
> thorsten
>
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
>
> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.
yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet,
which could be based on Lenya for instance
> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS
> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to
> the extense that both projects become one!
I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common
components which would lead to consolidation
> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for
> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and
> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look
for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers,
the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is
friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is
constantly growing .... so where is the problem?
Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD
thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)
Michi
>
> thorsten
>
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by "Scherler, Thorsten" <th...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
>>> the final say about this.
...
> So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS
> product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested
> folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement
> of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or
> over-ambitious proposed mission:
>
> RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
> the creation and maintenance of software related to content
> management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
>
Hi Steven, hi devs,
here my 2 cents:
I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya. Forrest is the classical
documentation framework that is missing CMS components. Lenya could
profit from integrating forrest into itself to the extense that both
projects become one! IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya
community to apply for becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to
be on their own and looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
thorsten
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin
>> has
>> the final say about this.
>
> Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
> indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
>
> However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....
While this might have been the initial intention when the project
brought to Apache, I think CMS is a head with many faces, and as such
might fail to realize cross-implementation-community-cohesiveness apart
from standardisation of some low-level APIs (WebDAV, JCR, etc). But
even with these APIs, there's no reasonable guarantee against "data
hijacking", in the sense that one would be able to mix-and-match the
different tiers of a CMS project from a pool of available
implementations, *without* having to go through extensive refactoring
or data migration. There's no such loose coupling between UI,
persistence and logic in the CMS world as compared to low-level
abstraction layers like JDBC (!), and even though many products speak
WebDAV, much of their functionality isn't exposed or accessible through
that interface. But I'm a nihilist rather than a marketing person, of
course.
So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS
product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested
folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement
of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or
over-ambitious proposed mission:
RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
the creation and maintenance of software related to content
management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
Happily moving on from this debate, I still see a ratio of 5 out of 9
non-independent committers on the PMC. AAMOF, IMHO there's only a few
(2?) of the independent PMC members who are demonstrating continued
involvement with the project. Aren't there any other candidate
committers to be on the PMC?
Aah - a flurry of new folks being (self-)proposed on the lists. ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>
>
>>I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>>community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>>are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>>implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
>>the final say about this.
>>
>>
>
>Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
>indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
>
>However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....
>
>
Lenya is a framework at the core, whereas the publications/publets
can be considered functional apps.
On the other hand can't httpd be considered a funtional app ;-)
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin
>> has
>> the final say about this.
>
> Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
> indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
>
> However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....
While this might have been the initial intention when the project
brought to Apache, I think CMS is a head with many faces, and as such
might fail to realize cross-implementation-community-cohesiveness apart
from standardisation of some low-level APIs (WebDAV, JCR, etc). But
even with these APIs, there's no reasonable guarantee against "data
hijacking", in the sense that one would be able to mix-and-match the
different tiers of a CMS project from a pool of available
implementations, *without* having to go through extensive refactoring
or data migration. There's no such loose coupling between UI,
persistence and logic in the CMS world as compared to low-level
abstraction layers like JDBC (!), and even though many products speak
WebDAV, much of their functionality isn't exposed or accessible through
that interface. But I'm a nihilist rather than a marketing person, of
course.
So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS
product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested
folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement
of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or
over-ambitious proposed mission:
RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
the creation and maintenance of software related to content
management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
Happily moving on from this debate, I still see a ratio of 5 out of 9
non-independent committers on the PMC. AAMOF, IMHO there's only a few
(2?) of the independent PMC members who are demonstrating continued
involvement with the project. Aren't there any other candidate
committers to be on the PMC?
Aah - a flurry of new folks being (self-)proposed on the lists. ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
> >> initial
> >> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
>
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
> facto" mentor.
Uups, I forgot. Nicola is also invited to join the Lenya PMC and to help
us with "reactive" and wise contributions.
> I hope my contributions during that episode were
> helpful.
At least that :)
>
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
> constraints.
Thank you very much.
> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
> the final say about this.
Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> ...
>>
>> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
>> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
>> who
>> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
>> initial
>> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>
> Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
helpful.
> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
"reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
the final say about this.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> ...
>>
>> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
>> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
>> who
>> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
>> initial
>> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>
> Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
helpful.
> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a
"reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time
constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
the final say about this.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
...
>
> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
--
Rolf Kulemann
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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
...
>
> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
> PMC. That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
--
Rolf Kulemann
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