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Posted to dev@cayenne.apache.org by "Michael Gentry (Yes, I'm a Contractor)" <mi...@fanniemae.com> on 2006/07/26 19:48:13 UTC
Alternative ROP?
This is a question/topic mainly for Andrus, but if anyone else has ideas,
I'd love to hear them, too.
I've been pondering the idea of building a non-Java ROP interface for
Cayenne ROP (specifically, Objective-C/Cocoa). I seem to recall a thread
where someone thought it would be possible without *too* much work (all
relative, I'm sure). Any thoughts on how best to approach this? I haven't
looked at the ROP stuff in much detail yet (glossed over some of the wiki
docs). I'm not even sure how many classes would have to be re-implemented.
I'm not too worried about the Hessian stuff, either. There is an
Objective-C version and, worst case, I could wrap the C++ version.
Any thoughts appreciated!
Thanks,
/dev/mrg
--
I'm Victor. I'm the cleaner.
Re: Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Michael Gentry <bl...@gmail.com>.
The keynote didn't mention Core Data at all (yes, I watched it all).
I'm not lucky enough to be at WWDC, so I don't know if they have
panels on CD or are adding new features (and that would be NDA'ed, but
a vague [dis|en]couragement from someone in-the-know about adding this
to Cayenne would be great). I really want to look into this more,
given a lack of CD support for real databases, but I'm not certain how
quickly I can get to it.
/dev/mrg
PS. Comments always welcome!
On 8/10/06, Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org> wrote:
> I think everybody's waiting for the news from WWDC that is in
> progress now :-)
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Tore Halset wrote:
>
> > Have you (or anyone else?) done any work on this? - the Objective-C/
> > Cocoa Cayenne ROP client?
> >
> > - Tore.
> >
> > On Jul 28, 2006, at 02:59, Michael Gentry wrote:
> >
> >> How would that be significantly worse than web browser -> web
> >> application -> database? Is CocoaJava what Apple supports as Cocoa
> >> using Java? If so, it isn't as supported as native Objective-C (I
> >> thought I heard it was being phased out, too). Besides, Cocoa
> >> development (in Objective-C) is fun. But if you have to access a DB,
> >> Cayenne is the best option currently, so it would be a nice option
> >> for
> >> native OS X applications, too.
> >>
> >> Just my rambling thoughts ...
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
I think everybody's waiting for the news from WWDC that is in
progress now :-)
On Aug 10, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Tore Halset wrote:
> Have you (or anyone else?) done any work on this? - the Objective-C/
> Cocoa Cayenne ROP client?
>
> - Tore.
>
> On Jul 28, 2006, at 02:59, Michael Gentry wrote:
>
>> How would that be significantly worse than web browser -> web
>> application -> database? Is CocoaJava what Apple supports as Cocoa
>> using Java? If so, it isn't as supported as native Objective-C (I
>> thought I heard it was being phased out, too). Besides, Cocoa
>> development (in Objective-C) is fun. But if you have to access a DB,
>> Cayenne is the best option currently, so it would be a nice option
>> for
>> native OS X applications, too.
>>
>> Just my rambling thoughts ...
>
>
Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Tore Halset <ha...@pvv.ntnu.no>.
Have you (or anyone else?) done any work on this? - the Objective-C/
Cocoa Cayenne ROP client?
- Tore.
On Jul 28, 2006, at 02:59, Michael Gentry wrote:
> How would that be significantly worse than web browser -> web
> application -> database? Is CocoaJava what Apple supports as Cocoa
> using Java? If so, it isn't as supported as native Objective-C (I
> thought I heard it was being phased out, too). Besides, Cocoa
> development (in Objective-C) is fun. But if you have to access a DB,
> Cayenne is the best option currently, so it would be a nice option for
> native OS X applications, too.
>
> Just my rambling thoughts ...
Re: Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Michael Gentry <bl...@gmail.com>.
How would that be significantly worse than web browser -> web
application -> database? Is CocoaJava what Apple supports as Cocoa
using Java? If so, it isn't as supported as native Objective-C (I
thought I heard it was being phased out, too). Besides, Cocoa
development (in Objective-C) is fun. But if you have to access a DB,
Cayenne is the best option currently, so it would be a nice option for
native OS X applications, too.
Just my rambling thoughts ...
Thanks,
/dev/mrg
On 7/27/06, Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org> wrote:
>
> On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Gentry, Michael ((Contractor)) wrote:
>
> > I am primarily wanting an EOF (or Cayenne ROP)
> > that can be used within Cocoa applications. Yeah, Apple has CoreData,
> > but it isn't the same (can't connect to a real DB).
>
> Hmm... Jumping from client-server ORM model to client->webservice-
> >dbserver adds lots of overhead and complexity. If you do not care
> for the other benefits of the web service, you are better off using
> CocoaJava with Cayenne going straight to the database (something that
> has been done before).
>
> Andrus
>
Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Gentry, Michael ((Contractor)) wrote:
> I am primarily wanting an EOF (or Cayenne ROP)
> that can be used within Cocoa applications. Yeah, Apple has CoreData,
> but it isn't the same (can't connect to a real DB).
Hmm... Jumping from client-server ORM model to client->webservice-
>dbserver adds lots of overhead and complexity. If you do not care
for the other benefits of the web service, you are better off using
CocoaJava with Cayenne going straight to the database (something that
has been done before).
Andrus
RE: Alternative ROP?
Posted by "Gentry, Michael (Contractor)" <mi...@fanniemae.com>.
I thought the WOLips effort was primarily due to Apple's horrible
support of non-OS X WebObjects development?
Believe it or not, EOF used to be a separate product and then eventually
got bundled into WebObjects. I still have EOF CDs at home (for NeXTstep
-- EOF predated WO). I am primarily wanting an EOF (or Cayenne ROP)
that can be used within Cocoa applications. Yeah, Apple has CoreData,
but it isn't the same (can't connect to a real DB). Maybe it is wishful
thinking on my part, but I'm hoping if OS X can keep gaining market
share, there will be more options to do Cocoa work and if it needs to
hit a database, it sure would be nice to have a good ORM framework for
that access.
/dev/mrg
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:andrus@objectstyle.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:55 AM
To: cayenne-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Alternative ROP?
On Jul 27, 2006, at 10:45 AM, Gentry, Michael ((Contractor)) wrote:
> Of course, Apple may announce the resurrection of Objective-C EOF at
> WWDC, so I'm not writing any code for now.
>
> /dev/mrg
Such considerations didn't prevent WOLips folks from writing an
Eclipse version of EOModeler :-)
Even if it does introduce Objective C EOF, you will be still tied to
the WebObjects server. But then this may be just what people want :-)
Andrus
Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
On Jul 27, 2006, at 10:45 AM, Gentry, Michael ((Contractor)) wrote:
> Of course, Apple may announce the resurrection of Objective-C EOF at
> WWDC, so I'm not writing any code for now.
>
> /dev/mrg
Such considerations didn't prevent WOLips folks from writing an
Eclipse version of EOModeler :-)
Even if it does introduce Objective C EOF, you will be still tied to
the WebObjects server. But then this may be just what people want :-)
Andrus
RE: Alternative ROP?
Posted by "Gentry, Michael (Contractor)" <mi...@fanniemae.com>.
Of course, Apple may announce the resurrection of Objective-C EOF at
WWDC, so I'm not writing any code for now.
/dev/mrg
-----Original Message-----
From: Gentry, Michael (Contractor) [mailto:michael_gentry@fanniemae.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:17 AM
To: cayenne-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: Alternative ROP?
Well, I'm not expecting something super-simple, but have no idea (yet)
of the scope of such an implementation. The basic idea would be to pick
up the ball that Apple dropped (Objective-C EOF). I've been talking to
a few people around here (who may even be willing to help -- one guy has
already been writing his own lightweight persistence layer) and the idea
sounds appealing, but I'm going to need to work with the ROP stuff more
to have a feel for what needs to be done (debuggers are your friend).
I did look at cayenne-client and it seemed a bit bigger than I was
expecting, but I probably wouldn't need everything at first, just the
bare essentials to prove the concept.
Thanks! I'll ponder some more. :-)
/dev/mrg
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:andrus@objectstyle.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:00 AM
To: cayenne-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Alternative ROP?
Michael,
I hope I did not exaggerated the simplicity of a potential port :-)
Here is the thread were this was discussed:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-user/2006/07/0009.html
Also another discussion that we had in the context of rop-wsdl Summer
of Code project can be found here:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-devel/2006/07/0018.html
This may sidetrack you though, as we were pondering possible
alternatives to the existing stack.
Andrus
On Jul 26, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Michael Gentry (Yes, I'm a Contractor)
wrote:
> This is a question/topic mainly for Andrus, but if anyone else has
> ideas,
> I'd love to hear them, too.
>
> I've been pondering the idea of building a non-Java ROP interface for
> Cayenne ROP (specifically, Objective-C/Cocoa). I seem to recall a
> thread
> where someone thought it would be possible without *too* much work
> (all
> relative, I'm sure). Any thoughts on how best to approach this? I
> haven't
> looked at the ROP stuff in much detail yet (glossed over some of
> the wiki
> docs). I'm not even sure how many classes would have to be re-
> implemented.
> I'm not too worried about the Hessian stuff, either. There is an
> Objective-C version and, worst case, I could wrap the C++ version.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
>
> /dev/mrg
> --
> I'm Victor. I'm the cleaner.
>
>
>
RE: Alternative ROP?
Posted by "Gentry, Michael (Contractor)" <mi...@fanniemae.com>.
Well, I'm not expecting something super-simple, but have no idea (yet)
of the scope of such an implementation. The basic idea would be to pick
up the ball that Apple dropped (Objective-C EOF). I've been talking to
a few people around here (who may even be willing to help -- one guy has
already been writing his own lightweight persistence layer) and the idea
sounds appealing, but I'm going to need to work with the ROP stuff more
to have a feel for what needs to be done (debuggers are your friend).
I did look at cayenne-client and it seemed a bit bigger than I was
expecting, but I probably wouldn't need everything at first, just the
bare essentials to prove the concept.
Thanks! I'll ponder some more. :-)
/dev/mrg
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:andrus@objectstyle.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:00 AM
To: cayenne-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Alternative ROP?
Michael,
I hope I did not exaggerated the simplicity of a potential port :-)
Here is the thread were this was discussed:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-user/2006/07/0009.html
Also another discussion that we had in the context of rop-wsdl Summer
of Code project can be found here:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-devel/2006/07/0018.html
This may sidetrack you though, as we were pondering possible
alternatives to the existing stack.
Andrus
On Jul 26, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Michael Gentry (Yes, I'm a Contractor)
wrote:
> This is a question/topic mainly for Andrus, but if anyone else has
> ideas,
> I'd love to hear them, too.
>
> I've been pondering the idea of building a non-Java ROP interface for
> Cayenne ROP (specifically, Objective-C/Cocoa). I seem to recall a
> thread
> where someone thought it would be possible without *too* much work
> (all
> relative, I'm sure). Any thoughts on how best to approach this? I
> haven't
> looked at the ROP stuff in much detail yet (glossed over some of
> the wiki
> docs). I'm not even sure how many classes would have to be re-
> implemented.
> I'm not too worried about the Hessian stuff, either. There is an
> Objective-C version and, worst case, I could wrap the C++ version.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
>
> /dev/mrg
> --
> I'm Victor. I'm the cleaner.
>
>
>
Re: Alternative ROP?
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Michael,
I hope I did not exaggerated the simplicity of a potential port :-)
Here is the thread were this was discussed:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-user/2006/07/0009.html
Also another discussion that we had in the context of rop-wsdl Summer
of Code project can be found here:
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/lists/cayenne-devel/2006/07/0018.html
This may sidetrack you though, as we were pondering possible
alternatives to the existing stack.
Andrus
On Jul 26, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Michael Gentry (Yes, I'm a Contractor)
wrote:
> This is a question/topic mainly for Andrus, but if anyone else has
> ideas,
> I'd love to hear them, too.
>
> I've been pondering the idea of building a non-Java ROP interface for
> Cayenne ROP (specifically, Objective-C/Cocoa). I seem to recall a
> thread
> where someone thought it would be possible without *too* much work
> (all
> relative, I'm sure). Any thoughts on how best to approach this? I
> haven't
> looked at the ROP stuff in much detail yet (glossed over some of
> the wiki
> docs). I'm not even sure how many classes would have to be re-
> implemented.
> I'm not too worried about the Hessian stuff, either. There is an
> Objective-C version and, worst case, I could wrap the C++ version.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
>
> /dev/mrg
> --
> I'm Victor. I'm the cleaner.
>
>
>