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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Peter Shipley <ps...@nomensa.com> on 2004/10/18 22:34:55 UTC
Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Was browing the Cocoon GetTogether and saw this
http://new.cocoondev.org/daisy/2
any thoughts as far as lenya goes ?
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> thorsten wrote:
>
>> Why did Steven not donated the code to lenya where he has been mentor
>> for over a year? We would have used the good parts and married them
>> with lenya! IMO that would have been the way to go to enhance lenya
>> and have a *real* open source apache top level project.
>
>
> i haven't looked at daisy in enough detail yet, but since it is ASL
> licensed, we (or anyone else) can certainly do that integration.
>
Like you stated it is now ASL so we can take whatever we want from. IMO
since we have to do a major rewrite for 1.4. we can use some good stuff
from them. I haven't look at the code either.
> did you actually talk with the daisy folks about these possibilities?
>
Nupp.
To be honest I will not talk to them about that. Like I stated before
they could have done that a long time ago, so I do not see why they
would have changed their mind.
...but anybody else can do.
spot
thorsten
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
thorsten wrote:
> Why did Steven not donated the code to lenya where he has been mentor
> for over a year? We would have used the good parts and married them with
> lenya! IMO that would have been the way to go to enhance lenya and have
> a *real* open source apache top level project.
i haven't looked at daisy in enough detail yet, but since it is ASL
licensed, we (or anyone else) can certainly do that integration.
did you actually talk with the daisy folks about these possibilities?
-gregor
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Tim Larson dijo:
> With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
Hi Tim:
Nice to see you here! ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 21 Oct 2004, at 21:40, Steven Noels wrote:
> And to make it very clear: I'm really happy that this community has
> been able to continue to stand on its own feet,
I should have dropped the remaining part from this sentence. Sorry
about this.
> even when it was left behind and considered to be a candidate for
> being the first incubation failure a while ago. Kudos for that.
The past is the past and Lenya should move on. My statement of failure
was a serious slip of the tongue and I apologize for that. Move along -
nothing here. :-|
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Oct 2004, at 20:31, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>> I think Lenya should primarily worry about being a great open source
>> community building a great CMS application.
>
> Yes, and I think the community improved a lot. This was quite some
> work.
> Building a great CMS is the next step with the help of our great
> community.
+1
>> I've never believed in
>> Lenya being the fertilizing ground for _all_ CMS-related ideas and
>> efforts in Apache, as it has been pushed by the people who originally
>> proposed Lenya to Apache, and I'm pretty sure that this vision has
>> actually caused more harm than good for the project and its
>> participants.
>
> Mmh, as far as I known Wyona was asked to donate Lenya to the ASF.
Pfew... you are finally starting to realize what has been my continuous
concern with Lenya: other than the usual "projects being shyly proposed
for ASF adoption" procedure, Lenya has been triumphantly dragged by its
hair into Apache, in the beginning under the label of "all CMS-related
activities at ASF should happen here".
In that light, could you please stop thinking that I have some secret
hidden agenda to speak low about Lenya, Michi or Gregor? I'm just not
very happy with what happened at that time, but I'll quit muttering
about it - these are things of the past. I'd wish however that people
do a more careful review of the past before judging who has been doing
what and to which effect.
And to make it very clear: I'm really happy that this community has
been able to continue to stand on its own feet, even when it was left
behind and considered to be a candidate for being the first incubation
failure a while ago. Kudos for that.
Look, I might be a general PITA but I usually only do so when I care
about something. Now, can we go on with the show please?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2004-10-20 at 10:22, Steven Noels wrote:
>...
> The thing I'm not so sure about is whether "integration" is always as
> easily done as it is proclaimed in CMS-land. This is actually going
> wildly off topic, but in my few years of experience I have seen many
> nice diagrams and intentions to integrate, but few actual code merging
> efforts. The point with Lenya & Daisy is that they both offer an
> integrated design, in the sense that there is coupling between the
> different pieces of the overall architecture.
Agreed.
> For Daisy, the repository
> design is very central to the core operations of Daisy.
> To give an
> example: I think our HTML editor is quite nice. So Lenya might consider
> taking a look at that. OTOH, many of the nice features of the editor
> (like the HTML cleansing, the "insert link by search" or the integrated
> image upload) do require some specific interface from the backend.
Yep, we also did steps in that direction using the so called Kupu
drawers, if you look at the Kupu 1.1.x integration. And the good thing
is, that we in theory can use the same integration code for links and
images in BXE too, since BXE ships the "Kupu drawers". Unfortunately I
never finished that work and did not started to use the drawers in BXE
due to lack of time...Kupu is XHTML only and Lenya goes much further,
which is Lenya's real strength...and BXE is a nice peace of work.
>...
>
> I really don't want to judge either Lenya or the upcoming HippoCMS or
> Magnolia, but what I see with these CMS frameworks is that a large
> percentage of the tangible functionalities are coded in the front-end
> web application rather than in the backend.
Yep, and I think we all agree that we will go to change that.
> Daisy tries to shove as
> much of this into the back-end as possible. It is much easier to build
> different apps on a common backend, than it is to try and integrate
> disparate front-end applications, even if they share common backend
> aspects (such as JSR 170 or WebDAV).
I really do not understand why you build a total proprietry repository.
Better base on a low level API like JCR or Slide than being total alone.
I guess it's like using JDBC or programming my own DB connection and
query API, which is obviously bad.
How will Daisy handle transactions? Ok, since the Daisy repo is based on
a relational DB, you have TXs support up to a certain point. What about
the docs you store in the fs?
> Sure it is interesting to support
> or implement shared standards, but given the low-level nature of these
> specs I'm pretty sure that implementations using these specs will still
> fail the test of interchangeability. Even though Lenya & Magnolia might
> share the same underlying repository backend in the future
> (Jackrabbit), I figure people will have a hard time using bits and
> pieces of Magnolia's JSPs to add them to Lenya's Cocoon pipelines or
> vice-versa: this all boils down to actual implementation choices.
Using the low level JCR, we will collect experience and ideas for a more
high level oriented API, which other projects maybe also adopt...of
course only if we build on a standard like JCR. What about Daisy?
Imagine a framework to attach workflow meta data (properties) to
(JCR)Nodes etc? The workflow concept than could be described more
general with Ontologies, which would make integration into other apps
more easy (this is vision of course) or at least lower the barrier for
interchangeability. What about workflow in Daisy?
> ...
> I think Lenya should primarily worry about being a great open source
> community building a great CMS application.
Yes, and I think the community improved a lot. This was quite some work.
Building a great CMS is the next step with the help of our great
community.
> I've never believed in
> Lenya being the fertilizing ground for _all_ CMS-related ideas and
> efforts in Apache, as it has been pushed by the people who originally
> proposed Lenya to Apache, and I'm pretty sure that this vision has
> actually caused more harm than good for the project and its
> participants.
Mmh, as far as I known Wyona was asked to donate Lenya to the ASF.
> And I'm relatively sure that Michi and Gregor will agree
> with me on that - this community has been the victim of its goals being
> oversold, not by themselves, but by the people who brought it into
> Apache.
Steven, I asked you many times what your real objectives are/were with
Lenya, Michi and Gregor. You never told the truth but instead you kept
on warming up the old coffee again and again. I have to admit, I'm quite
disappointed of that as a community member.
As _you_ know, everybody make mistakes from time to time and maybe peeps
were over- motivated and poisened by vision in the beginning. However
I'm very thankful to Michi and Gregor that they kept on going. We all
learned a lot and will do so in the future.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Oct 2004, at 01:53, thorsten wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>> On 19 Oct 2004, at 05:51, Tim Larson wrote:
>>> It is not a mentor's responsibility to write a project's code.
>> Adding to that, for the sake of full-disclosure, there were some
>> Lenya peeps who have been informed about Daisy's design early
>> February of this year, and had access to some pre-release code dumps
>> as early as in May.
>
> I did not know that. This "peeps" (what does this means, I could not
> find it my dict.) should have told us about the nice features that I
> have read in the documentation of Daisy. ;-) It seems to have really
> nice features that lenya now is missing.
peep = person :-)
The thing I'm not so sure about is whether "integration" is always as
easily done as it is proclaimed in CMS-land. This is actually going
wildly off topic, but in my few years of experience I have seen many
nice diagrams and intentions to integrate, but few actual code merging
efforts. The point with Lenya & Daisy is that they both offer an
integrated design, in the sense that there is coupling between the
different pieces of the overall architecture. For Daisy, the repository
design is very central to the core operations of Daisy. To give an
example: I think our HTML editor is quite nice. So Lenya might consider
taking a look at that. OTOH, many of the nice features of the editor
(like the HTML cleansing, the "insert link by search" or the integrated
image upload) do require some specific interface from the backend. The
"insert link by search" screen by itself took us only a couple of hours
to code, but creating the highlevel Java API took of course much more.
So even if there's code up for grabbing, do not underestimate the
actual effort of doing any sort of integration. That's why I tried to
peeve a few Lenya peeps in taking a look at the repository itself -
because then we would have had some core stuff used jointly by both
projects. If your backend is comprehensive & powerful, UI coding is
only 10% of the effort and can easily be done in parallel.
I really don't want to judge either Lenya or the upcoming HippoCMS or
Magnolia, but what I see with these CMS frameworks is that a large
percentage of the tangible functionalities are coded in the front-end
web application rather than in the backend. Daisy tries to shove as
much of this into the back-end as possible. It is much easier to build
different apps on a common backend, than it is to try and integrate
disparate front-end applications, even if they share common backend
aspects (such as JSR 170 or WebDAV). Sure it is interesting to support
or implement shared standards, but given the low-level nature of these
specs I'm pretty sure that implementations using these specs will still
fail the test of interchangeability. Even though Lenya & Magnolia might
share the same underlying repository backend in the future
(Jackrabbit), I figure people will have a hard time using bits and
pieces of Magnolia's JSPs to add them to Lenya's Cocoon pipelines or
vice-versa: this all boils down to actual implementation choices.
>>> With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
>> Yes, please. I don't know what you're exactly up to, Thorsten.
>
> Steven, I want to thank you for being our mentor, honestly. You where
> there to be a mentor where no one else had time. Thank you very
> much!!! I think it takes a lot of time to be a mentor and time is very
> valuable. Muchas gracias!
Do not worry about apologies - I've been around here long enough to
have grown a thicker skin. What I'd like you to do however is to clear
up the stuff you left behind at general@incubator.a.o - _that_ was much
harder to cope with. I've now started to realize that it might as well
be _me_ you were referring to in that thread.
> I am personaly an idealist. I wish not only for lenya/daisy/hippo/...
> - cms but for more os-project in general that they would try to work
> closer together. That would be so much more efficient. We would be
> able to really built a competition to e.g. Vignette.
As I stated already, I think the open source community at large is
better served with choice and nice community interplay rather than with
"the" end-to-end monopolist CMS platform. For that, I think oscom.org
is doing an applaudable effort.
IMHO: Apache excels at providing reference & quality implementations of
specs & open standards. For that, I'm keen to see Jackrabbit happen.
It's good to have httpd, libraries like httpclient, a framework like
Cocoon, XMLBeans for XML manipulation, and servlet engines to run all
the stuff we create - many of them based on open specifications. But
there exists no end-to-end specification or standard of the ideal CMS
application - so I tend to be pessimistic about the chances of Lenya
becoming more than "a" open source CMS, rather than "the" CMS. Which is
already a nice thing to realize IMHO. Being ambitious doesn't harm
except when it frightens people and prevents them from taking baby
steps - and coding is all about baby steps.
> I really hope that Daisy and Lenya can work closely together and
> create the greatest open source cms.
I think Lenya should primarily worry about being a great open source
community building a great CMS application. I've never believed in
Lenya being the fertilizing ground for _all_ CMS-related ideas and
efforts in Apache, as it has been pushed by the people who originally
proposed Lenya to Apache, and I'm pretty sure that this vision has
actually caused more harm than good for the project and its
participants. And I'm relatively sure that Michi and Gregor will agree
with me on that - this community has been the victim of its goals being
oversold, not by themselves, but by the people who brought it into
Apache.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 19 Oct 2004, at 05:51, Tim Larson wrote:
>
>> It is not a mentor's responsibility to write a project's code.
>
>
> Adding to that, for the sake of full-disclosure, there were some Lenya
> peeps who have been informed about Daisy's design early February of this
> year, and had access to some pre-release code dumps as early as in May.
>
I did not know that. This "peeps" (what does this means, I could not
find it my dict.) should have told us about the nice features that I
have read in the documentation of Daisy. ;-) It seems to have really
nice features that lenya now is missing.
>> With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
>
>
> Yes, please. I don't know what you're exactly up to, Thorsten.
>
Steven, I want to thank you for being our mentor, honestly. You where
there to be a mentor where no one else had time. Thank you very much!!!
I think it takes a lot of time to be a mentor and time is very valuable.
Muchas gracias!
I am personaly an idealist. I wish not only for lenya/daisy/hippo/... -
cms but for more os-project in general that they would try to work
closer together. That would be so much more efficient. We would be able
to really built a competition to e.g. Vignette.
In the end I just want use the greatest open source software.
Sorry for sounding harsh in the first place (like I stated I am an
idealist).
I really hope that Daisy and Lenya can work closely together and create
the greatest open source cms.
thorsten
> </Steven>
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 19 Oct 2004, at 05:51, Tim Larson wrote:
> It is not a mentor's responsibility to write a project's code.
Adding to that, for the sake of full-disclosure, there were some Lenya
peeps who have been informed about Daisy's design early February of
this year, and had access to some pre-release code dumps as early as in
May.
> With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
Yes, please. I don't know what you're exactly up to, Thorsten.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Tim Larson wrote:
>
>With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
>
>
very well said :-)
Michi
>--Tim Larson
>
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>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Newbie install
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Tom Bloomfield wrote:
[...]
Your observations show that you seem to have a correct installation.
> How can I install Lenya without installing a secondary version of Cocoon
> as well?
This is not possible.
-- Andreas
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Newbie install
Posted by Tom Bloomfield <to...@shopbloomfield.com>.
Hi guys, new Lenya user here with a (probably easy) question:
I'm confused about the Cocoon/Lenya relationship. I already have Cocoon
installed as a webapp. I'm now attempting to install Lenya.
I'm noticing that when I run "ant install", a new subdirectory under
webapps is created (/lenya) ... that's good ;-) Examining the directory
though, it looks like a new version of Cocoon is installed in that
directory, along with Lenya files. I can confirm this "duplicate"
version by switching webapps in a browser: http://www.foo.com/cocoon and
http://www.foo.com/lenya display different Cocoon versions.
I've already changed the hdsqldb port, per the Wiki, and now am stuck.
How can I install Lenya without installing a secondary version of Cocoon
as well?
Thanks,
Tom
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org>.
On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:06:37PM +0200, thorsten wrote:
> Peter Shipley wrote:
> >Was browing the Cocoon GetTogether and saw this
> >http://new.cocoondev.org/daisy/2
> >
> >any thoughts as far as lenya goes ?
>
> I actually do:
>
> Why did Steven not donated the code to lenya where he has been mentor
> for over a year? We would have used the good parts and married them with
> lenya! IMO that would have been the way to go to enhance lenya and have
> a *real* open source apache top level project.
Stop.
Think.
Let's keep the acid out of this promising community.
Try on another pair of shoes (see through another's viewpoint).
It is not a mentor's responsibility to write a project's code.
Please read that again, and think about what it takes to create
a company, and negotiate funding for the development of a project
like Daisy, and to negotiate with the sponsor to allow it to be
released under such a liberal open source license as the ASL 2.0,
which *just happens* to be compatible with the license of Cocoon
and Lenya, allowing code mixing. "Thank you" comes to my mind.
(Besides, Daisy has not had this impressive feature-set for the
whole year, it just reached this level of functionality recently.)
With hopes of peace and ongoing friendship,
--Tim Larson
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Peter Shipley wrote:
> Was browing the Cocoon GetTogether and saw this
> http://new.cocoondev.org/daisy/2
>
> any thoughts as far as lenya goes ?
I actually do:
Why did Steven not donated the code to lenya where he has been mentor
for over a year? We would have used the good parts and married them with
lenya! IMO that would have been the way to go to enhance lenya and have
a *real* open source apache top level project.
spot
thorsten
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoon Daisy
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 22:34, Peter Shipley wrote:
> Was browing the Cocoon GetTogether and saw this
> http://new.cocoondev.org/daisy/2
>
> any thoughts as far as lenya goes ?
Here is my personal mission:
* Currently I try to get started with JackRabbit, a JCR implementation.
I plan to let versioning and workflow to be based on the JCR (in Lenya
1.4?). The problem is JackRabbit is still under heavy development and I
will try to help out there as far as I can.
* I'm also trying/using daisy and will use everything useful from it in
Lenya as far as the License makes it possible. I do not mean code in
general, but ideas and concepts (thanks to Outerthought for investing so
much time and money in it). Of course I will try to add my on stuff,
since I think sths. could be improved even in Daisy.
The Problem is, my interests maybe interfere with Lenya 1.4 (and Daisy).
Maybe we need a new branch. I'm motivated to start from scratch.
Tim Larson: Do u still need the code name "SWAN" ?
Further discussion in the dev list please.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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