Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>]

I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing

I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured
I'd post it just in case :)

On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:

> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>
> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
> holistically?
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>
> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>
> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Hey all,
>
> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>  and CASSANDRA-16663
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>
> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is
> CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>,
> which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and
> have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>
> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
> valves:
>
> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
> coordinating reads and writes.
> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to
> avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>
> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>
>
> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
> feels like a good idea.
>
> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>
> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
> for processing.
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
> this problem space).
>
>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jon Haddad <jo...@rustyrazorblade.com>]

Oh, one last thing.  If the client drivers were to implement a rate limiter
based on each node's error rate, and had the ability to back off, paired
with CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>,
I think the majority of severe cluster outages that people experience would
simply disappear, making fast rejection of requests at the server side more
of an optimization than a necessity.

There was a nice Netflix post about it here [1], and was the inspiration
behind my latency target mode that's in easy-cass-stress.

https://netflixtechblog.medium.com/performance-under-load-3e6fa9a60581

Jon

On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 12:38 PM Jon Haddad <jo...@rustyrazorblade.com> wrote:

> Can you elaborate what “the bad” is here? Maybe a scenario would help. I’m
> trying to visualize what kind of workload would be running where you
> wouldn’t have timeouts or a deep queue yet a node is overloaded.  What is
> “the bad” if requests aren’t timing out? How is a node overloaded if there
> isn’t work queued up?
>
> The levers we have under our control are concurrent work and the queue of
> work. Applying a rate limiter to the queue is a roundabout way of limiting
> the queue depth, so i view it as unnecessary in a world where the queue has
> a limit.
>
> Dynamically sizing the depth of the queue based on timeouts allows us to
> adjust it based on the heuristic of the amount of work that was able to be
> completed successfully in the past.  If you know that the queue has seen
> timeouts when it gets deeper than 100k requests, you stop accepting
> requests after 100k is reached.  The rate of rejection will be roughly
> correlated to the number of requests that would otherwise timeout.
> Basically we say, we can’t serve you, so don’t even get in line, and we use
> the length of the line as our throttle.
>
> Fwiw, I fully acknowledge that I didn’t invent any of this, it’s how
> hardware works already. I’m just applying the same concepts to our software
> queues that cpu, disks, and network cards already successfully use.
>
> Jon
>
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 12:05 PM Jordan West <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Josh. We need to be able to protect from a sudden burst of
>> traffic. 19534 went a long way in that regard — at least wrt to minimizing
>> the effects. The challenge with latency and queue depths can be that they
>> trigger when the bad has already occurred.
>>
>> One other thing we are considering internally in that project I mentioned
>> is having separate thresholds. One that starts to slow traffic and one that
>> rejects it.
>>
>> All this said, I think our intuition can guide us to initial
>> implementations but we I’m still pretty adamant that our decisions should
>> be guided by testing and numbers for this CEP.
>>
>> Jordan
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 04:36 Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly
>>> comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at
>>> 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by
>>> queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and
>>> disk implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while
>>> in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads
>>> over time, in practice things spike around various events for different
>>> applications.
>>>
>>> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than
>>> 1 other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and
>>> Accord.
>>>
>>> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points)
>>> before we start working on the rate limiter
>>>
>>> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there
>>> something I'm missing?
>>>
>>> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect
>>> themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's
>>> minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as
>>> possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node
>>> performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and
>>> responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to
>>> indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
>>>
>>> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral
>>> parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were
>>> we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we
>>> improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate
>>> limiting kicked in.
>>>
>>> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>>>
>>> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of
>>> the thread pools
>>> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
>>>
>>> followed by:
>>>
>>> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize
>>> thread pools that could be interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Simple is very much a feature here.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>>>
>>> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric
>>> based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require
>>> significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the
>>> dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.
>>>
>>> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot.
>>> However, in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than
>>> rate limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to
>>> implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three
>>> things:
>>>
>>>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable
>>> and not overloaded)
>>>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request
>>> and minimize overall queueing time)
>>>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>>>
>>> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches
>>> that will not require much operator involvement.
>>>
>>> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by
>>> the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but
>>> there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require
>>> workload isolation.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead
>>> when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I
>>> am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be
>>> settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own).
>>> So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to
>>> use, etc).
>>>
>>> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
>>> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
>>> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
>>> are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns
>>> internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce
>>> back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my
>>> expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or
>>> worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss
>>> approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers.
>>>
>>> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important
>>> as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of
>>> workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability
>>> will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus
>>> more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost
>>> when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach.
>>>
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <
>>> benedict@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
>>> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
>>> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
>>> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
>>> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
>>> to avoid any surprise.
>>>
>>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
>>> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
>>> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
>>> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
>>> get started?
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
>>> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just created an official CEP-41
>>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
>>> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>
>>> +1 here.
>>>
>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
>>> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>
>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>> very strong.
>>>
>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
>>> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
>>> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
>>> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
>>> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>
>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>> holistically?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>
>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>
>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>
>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>>> valves:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>
>>>
>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>
>>>
>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>>> feels like a good idea.
>>>
>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>
>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
>>> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
>>> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
>>> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
>>> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
>>> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
>>> for processing.
>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>> very strong.
>>>
>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>> this problem space).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jon Haddad <jo...@rustyrazorblade.com>]

Can you elaborate what “the bad” is here? Maybe a scenario would help. I’m
trying to visualize what kind of workload would be running where you
wouldn’t have timeouts or a deep queue yet a node is overloaded.  What is
“the bad” if requests aren’t timing out? How is a node overloaded if there
isn’t work queued up?

The levers we have under our control are concurrent work and the queue of
work. Applying a rate limiter to the queue is a roundabout way of limiting
the queue depth, so i view it as unnecessary in a world where the queue has
a limit.

Dynamically sizing the depth of the queue based on timeouts allows us to
adjust it based on the heuristic of the amount of work that was able to be
completed successfully in the past.  If you know that the queue has seen
timeouts when it gets deeper than 100k requests, you stop accepting
requests after 100k is reached.  The rate of rejection will be roughly
correlated to the number of requests that would otherwise timeout.
Basically we say, we can’t serve you, so don’t even get in line, and we use
the length of the line as our throttle.

Fwiw, I fully acknowledge that I didn’t invent any of this, it’s how
hardware works already. I’m just applying the same concepts to our software
queues that cpu, disks, and network cards already successfully use.

Jon

On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 12:05 PM Jordan West <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with Josh. We need to be able to protect from a sudden burst of
> traffic. 19534 went a long way in that regard — at least wrt to minimizing
> the effects. The challenge with latency and queue depths can be that they
> trigger when the bad has already occurred.
>
> One other thing we are considering internally in that project I mentioned
> is having separate thresholds. One that starts to slow traffic and one that
> rejects it.
>
> All this said, I think our intuition can guide us to initial
> implementations but we I’m still pretty adamant that our decisions should
> be guided by testing and numbers for this CEP.
>
> Jordan
>
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 04:36 Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly
>> comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at
>> 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by
>> queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and
>> disk implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while
>> in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads
>> over time, in practice things spike around various events for different
>> applications.
>>
>> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than
>> 1 other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and
>> Accord.
>>
>> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points)
>> before we start working on the rate limiter
>>
>> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there
>> something I'm missing?
>>
>> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect
>> themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's
>> minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as
>> possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node
>> performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and
>> responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to
>> indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
>>
>> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral
>> parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were
>> we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we
>> improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate
>> limiting kicked in.
>>
>> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>>
>> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of
>> the thread pools
>> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
>>
>> followed by:
>>
>> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize
>> thread pools that could be interesting.
>>
>>
>> Simple is very much a feature here.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>>
>> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric
>> based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require
>> significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the
>> dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.
>>
>> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However,
>> in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate
>> limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to
>> implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three
>> things:
>>
>>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable
>> and not overloaded)
>>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and
>> minimize overall queueing time)
>>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>>
>> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that
>> will not require much operator involvement.
>>
>> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by
>> the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but
>> there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require
>> workload isolation.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>>
>> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead
>> when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I
>> am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be
>> settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own).
>> So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to
>> use, etc).
>>
>> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
>> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
>> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
>> are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns
>> internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce
>> back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my
>> expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or
>> worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss
>> approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers.
>>
>> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important
>> as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of
>> workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability
>> will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus
>> more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost
>> when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach.
>>
>> Jordan
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
>> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
>> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
>> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
>> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
>> to avoid any surprise.
>>
>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
>> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
>> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
>> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>>
>>
>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
>> get started?
>>
>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
>> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just created an official CEP-41
>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
>> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>
>> +1 here.
>>
>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
>> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>
>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
>> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
>> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
>> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
>> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>
>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>> holistically?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>
>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>
>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>
>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>> valves:
>>
>>
>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>> coordinating reads and writes.
>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>
>>
>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>
>>
>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>> feels like a good idea.
>>
>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>
>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
>> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
>> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
>> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
>> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
>> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
>> for processing.
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>> this problem space).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jordan West <jo...@gmail.com>]

I agree with Josh. We need to be able to protect from a sudden burst of
traffic. 19534 went a long way in that regard — at least wrt to minimizing
the effects. The challenge with latency and queue depths can be that they
trigger when the bad has already occurred.

One other thing we are considering internally in that project I mentioned
is having separate thresholds. One that starts to slow traffic and one that
rejects it.

All this said, I think our intuition can guide us to initial
implementations but we I’m still pretty adamant that our decisions should
be guided by testing and numbers for this CEP.

Jordan

On Sat, Sep 21, 2024 at 04:36 Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly
> comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at
> 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by
> queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk
> implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an
> ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over
> time, in practice things spike around various events for different
> applications.
>
> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than 1
> other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and
> Accord.
>
> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points)
> before we start working on the rate limiter
>
> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there
> something I'm missing?
>
> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect
> themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's
> minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as
> possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node
> performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and
> responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to
> indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
>
> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral
> parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were
> we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we
> improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate
> limiting kicked in.
>
> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>
> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of
> the thread pools
> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
>
> followed by:
>
> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize
> thread pools that could be interesting.
>
>
> Simple is very much a feature here.
>
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>
> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
> are good evidence of that.
>
> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However,
> in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate
> limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to
> implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three
> things:
>
>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and
> not overloaded)
>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize
> overall queueing time)
>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>
> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that
> will not require much operator involvement.
>
> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by
> the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but
> there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require
> workload isolation.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>
> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead
> when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I
> am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be
> settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own).
> So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to
> use, etc).
>
> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
> are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns
> internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce
> back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my
> expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or
> worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss
> approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers.
>
> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important
> as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of
> workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability
> will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus
> more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost
> when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach.
>
> Jordan
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
> to avoid any surprise.
>
> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>
>
> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
> get started?
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just created an official CEP-41
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
> captured in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> +1 here.
>
> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>
> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>
> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
> holistically?
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>
> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>
> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Hey all,
>
> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>  and CASSANDRA-16663
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>
> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is
> CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>,
> which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and
> have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>
> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
> valves:
>
>
> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
> coordinating reads and writes.
> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to
> avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>
>
> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>
>
> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
> feels like a good idea.
>
> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>
> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
> for processing.
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
> this problem space).
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

If we’re debating the overall approach, I think we need to define what we want to achieve before we pursue any specific design.

I think rate limiting is simply a proxy for cluster stability. I think implicitly we also all want to achieve client fairness. Rate limiting is one proposal for achieving the first only - a poor one IMO, driven I think by a lack of guarantees currently provided by the rest of the system.

Given this lens, load balancing is IMO a performance improvement - an important one, but orthogonal to achieving the stability itself. My personal view is that the best next step for achieving both is improved load shedding, building on Alex’s earlier work, which I think is broadly what Jon is saying.

The best improvement IMO is ensuring load shedding is fair. That is, we should shed load to replicas that already have the most work sent to them, and for clients with the most work already queued. That is, we should partition the client work queue by client, and as we get back-pressure signals from overloaded replicas we should being materialising a view of the client work queue attributing targets to this replica. We can then expire work based on the worst queue depth of any queue. We should also use this to override the behaviour of the dynamic snitch; we should not send work to replicas with local queues that cannot flush due to back-pressure.

I think, once this is in place, the internal queue depths Jon discusses would be useful signals to the internode inbound message handler to propagate back to peers’ outbound message queues (and, transitively, the client message queue management).

I think there are also improvements to be made regarding how we select work to be expired, such as partitioning by workload type, predicting wether there is enough time for the system to process a query (e.g. not submitting work that is close to its expiration), as considering the size of the client payload, etc. Also, choosing when to notify a client of timeout/overload - it may be preferential to discard the work but delay notifying the client to avoid the client retrying too quickly.



> On 23 Sep 2024, at 08:39, Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de> wrote:
> 
> > Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of computational and disk implications? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over time, in practice things spike around various events for different applications.
> 
> To fully answer your question I would probably have to flesh out a CEP (which I hope to get to ASAP), and I will elaborate on all of the points on Community over Code this year (and will do my best to put it in writing for the ones who will not attend). But to briefly answer, one of the ideas is exactly the fact that one thing in a queue is not the same as a another thing in a queue. 
> 
> > I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> I think if we start working on rate limiting before we implement good load balancing, we are risking of shedding load that could otherwise have been handled by the cluster. I think you even said it yourself with "over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in".
> 
> Besides, in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> I was attempting to show that we need to find a maximal natural possible throughput that the cluster can handle without tipping, and maintain it. And the easiest way to handle this was, naturally, through the user-set timeouts. We can work in resource limits, but as of now I see only marginal improvement over what we can do just with timeouts.
> 
> One of the risk of a misconfigured rate-limiter is avoidable throttling / shedding. For example, CEP mentions a trigger of a 80% CPU utilization. But while testing 19534, we have seen that we can easily burst into high CPU utilization, let the requests that do not satisfy client timeout boundaries get shedded, and continue operating without any additional rate-limiting. My guess is that the existing rate-limiter sees less usage than we wish it to primarily because it is hard to say where to set the limits to for throwing OverloadedException, and TCP throttling/backoff does not work because we lose the queue arrival timestamp and start triggering client timeouts that are invisible to a server (i.e. client retries while request is still in the queue). While latter problem has a trivial solution (i.e. client-set deadlines), former one probably requires some auto-tuning or guidance. 
> 
> Another example is "culprit Keyspaces" from the CEP. If we introduce fairness into our load-balancing, a single keyspace, or a replica set (partition) will not be able to dominate the cluster workload, causing accross the board timeouts. Which means that by simply giving preference to other requests we have naturally shed an imbalance without introducing any rate-limiting.
> 
> Maybe the problem is in the terminology, but I think we should choose "prioritize read/write coordinator workload" over "block any {read/write} {coordinator/replication} traffic for a table". Let me make an example. Let's say we implement some algorithm for replenishing request allowance for write replication for a table, and this table runs out of tokens. If we make a decision to shed this request before waiting until the last moment it potentially could have gotten processed, we are risking shedding a request that can be served. But if we gave such request a lower priority, we can get to it when we get to it given current resources and queues. If we still can process it, we will, even if it is on a very end of our timeout guarantee, and I think it does not need to be shed.
> 
> I think what I have in mind seems to jibe very well with the points you have brought up:
>   * How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as possible for operators
>   * How do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on 
> 
> To summarize, I think good load balancing and workload prioritization combined with just "give up on a request if we know for a fact we can not process it" feels like a simpler way to solve the two problems you mentioned, and it will help us maximize cluster utilization while not shedding the load that could otherwise have been served, _while_ also reducing latencies across the board.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 1:35 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote:
>> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of computational and disk implications? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over time, in practice things spike around various events for different applications.
>> 
>> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than 1 other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and Accord.
>> 
>>> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter
>> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there something I'm missing?
>> 
>> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
>> 
>> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in.
>> 
>> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>>> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of the thread pools
>>> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
>> followed by:
>>> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize thread pools that could be interesting.
>> 
>> Simple is very much a feature here.
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>>> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.
>>> 
>>> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However, in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three things:
>>> 
>>>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and not overloaded)
>>>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize overall queueing time)
>>>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>>> 
>>> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that will not require much operator involvement.
>>> 
>>> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require workload isolation. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>>>> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own). So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to use, etc). 
>>>> 
>>>> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers. 
>>>> 
>>>> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach. 
>>>> 
>>>> Jordan 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <benedict@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on, but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now to avoid any surprise.
>>>> 
>>>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pmcfadin@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one get started?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Just created an official CEP-41 <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive actual SEDA-like approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Štefan Miklošovič <sm...@apache.org>]

I know it is probably too soon to discuss the implementation details in
depth as it is hard to say precisely how it will look like but I want to
highlight for example this (1). Would some parts of that work touch this
logic?

There is also (2) which tries to solve different but somewhat related
problems. If there is an attacker who just brute-forces passwords, we do
not only want to limit the password hashing, we want to just ban such users
for some time to try again. I do not want to go into details, it is
complicated enough already, I just want to say that this stuff should not
be covered by this work. Auth requests should never be throttled by this
mechanism and we implement a specific rate limiter with additional logic
involved which would solve brute-forces / banning of users for a while for
trying again. We would ideally never submit such a query to a respective
thread pool for further processing if we realize that a particular user is
actually banned for logging because he was trying too often and
unsuccessfully which is rather suspicious.

(1)
https://github.com/apache/cassandra/commit/09b282d1fdd7d6d62542137003011d144c0227be
(2) https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19734

On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:41 AM Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de> wrote:

> > Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly
> comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at
> 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by
> queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk
> implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an
> ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over
> time, in practice things spike around various events for different
> applications.
>
> To fully answer your question I would probably have to flesh out a CEP
> (which I hope to get to ASAP), and I will elaborate on all of the points on
> Community over Code this year (and will do my best to put it in writing for
> the ones who will not attend). But to briefly answer, one of the ideas is
> exactly the fact that one thing in a queue is not the same as a another
> thing in a queue.
>
> > I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there
> something I'm missing?
>
> I think if we start working on rate limiting before we implement good load
> balancing, we are risking of shedding load that could otherwise have been
> handled by the cluster. I think you even said it yourself with "over time
> it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in".
>
> Besides, in CASSANDRA-19534
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> I was attempting
> to show that we need to find a maximal natural possible throughput that the
> cluster can handle without tipping, and maintain it. And the easiest way to
> handle this was, naturally, through the user-set timeouts. We can work in
> resource limits, but as of now I see only marginal improvement over what we
> can do just with timeouts.
>
> One of the risk of a misconfigured rate-limiter is avoidable throttling /
> shedding. For example, CEP mentions a trigger of a 80% CPU utilization. But
> while testing 19534, we have seen that we can easily burst into high CPU
> utilization, let the requests that do not satisfy client timeout boundaries
> get shedded, and continue operating without any additional rate-limiting.
> My guess is that the existing rate-limiter sees less usage than we wish it
> to primarily because it is hard to say where to set the limits to for
> throwing OverloadedException, and TCP throttling/backoff does not work
> because we lose the queue arrival timestamp and start triggering client
> timeouts that are invisible to a server (i.e. client retries while request
> is still in the queue). While latter problem has a trivial solution (i.e.
> client-set deadlines), former one probably requires some auto-tuning or
> guidance.
>
> Another example is "culprit Keyspaces" from the CEP. If we introduce
> fairness into our load-balancing, a single keyspace, or a replica set
> (partition) will not be able to dominate the cluster workload, causing
> accross the board timeouts. Which means that by simply giving preference to
> other requests we have naturally shed an imbalance without introducing any
> rate-limiting.
>
> Maybe the problem is in the terminology, but I think we should choose
> "prioritize read/write coordinator workload" over "block any {read/write}
> {coordinator/replication} traffic for a table". Let me make an example.
> Let's say we implement some algorithm for replenishing request allowance
> for write replication for a table, and this table runs out of tokens. If we
> make a decision to shed this request before waiting until the last moment
> it potentially could have gotten processed, we are risking shedding a
> request that can be served. But if we gave such request a lower priority,
> we can get to it when we get to it given current resources and queues. If
> we still can process it, we will, even if it is on a very end of our
> timeout guarantee, and I think it does not need to be shed.
>
> I think what I have in mind seems to jibe very well with the points you
> have brought up:
>   * How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user
> behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as
> little configuration as possible for operators
>   * How do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the
> scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various
> exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on
>
> To summarize, I think good load balancing and workload prioritization
> combined with just "give up on a request if we know for a fact we can not
> process it" feels like a simpler way to solve the two problems you
> mentioned, and it will help us maximize cluster utilization while not
> shedding the load that could otherwise have been served, _while_ also
> reducing latencies across the board.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 1:35 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote:
>
> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly
> comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at
> 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by
> queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk
> implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an
> ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over
> time, in practice things spike around various events for different
> applications.
>
> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than 1
> other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and
> Accord.
>
> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points)
> before we start working on the rate limiter
>
> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there
> something I'm missing?
>
> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect
> themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's
> minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as
> possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node
> performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and
> responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to
> indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
>
> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral
> parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were
> we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we
> improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate
> limiting kicked in.
>
> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>
> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of
> the thread pools
> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
>
> followed by:
>
> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize
> thread pools that could be interesting.
>
>
> Simple is very much a feature here.
>
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>
> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
> are good evidence of that.
>
> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However,
> in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate
> limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to
> implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three
> things:
>
>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and
> not overloaded)
>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize
> overall queueing time)
>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>
> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that
> will not require much operator involvement.
>
> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by
> the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but
> there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require
> workload isolation.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>
> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead
> when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I
> am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be
> settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own).
> So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to
> use, etc).
>
> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
> heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
> knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
> are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns
> internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce
> back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my
> expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or
> worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss
> approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers.
>
> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important
> as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of
> workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability
> will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus
> more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost
> when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach.
>
> Jordan
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
> to avoid any surprise.
>
> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>
>
> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
> get started?
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just created an official CEP-41
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
> captured in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> +1 here.
>
> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>
> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>
> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
> holistically?
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>
> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>
> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Hey all,
>
> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>  and CASSANDRA-16663
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>
> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is
> CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>,
> which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and
> have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>
> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
> valves:
>
>
> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
> coordinating reads and writes.
> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to
> avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>
>
> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>
>
> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
> feels like a good idea.
>
> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>
> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
> for processing.
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
> this problem space).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de>]

> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over time, in practice things spike around various events for different applications.

To fully answer your question I would probably have to flesh out a CEP (which I hope to get to ASAP), and I will elaborate on all of the points on Community over Code this year (and will do my best to put it in writing for the ones who will not attend). But to briefly answer, one of the ideas is exactly the fact that one thing in a queue is not the same as a another thing in a queue. 

> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there something I'm missing?

I think if we start working on rate limiting before we implement good load balancing, we are risking of shedding load that could otherwise have been handled by the cluster. I think you even said it yourself with "over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in".

Besides, in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> I was attempting to show that we need to find a maximal natural possible throughput that the cluster can handle without tipping, and maintain it. And the easiest way to handle this was, naturally, through the user-set timeouts. We can work in resource limits, but as of now I see only marginal improvement over what we can do just with timeouts.

One of the risk of a misconfigured rate-limiter is avoidable throttling / shedding. For example, CEP mentions a trigger of a 80% CPU utilization. But while testing 19534, we have seen that we can easily burst into high CPU utilization, let the requests that do not satisfy client timeout boundaries get shedded, and continue operating without any additional rate-limiting. My guess is that the existing rate-limiter sees less usage than we wish it to primarily because it is hard to say where to set the limits to for throwing OverloadedException, and TCP throttling/backoff does not work because we lose the queue arrival timestamp and start triggering client timeouts that are invisible to a server (i.e. client retries while request is still in the queue). While latter problem has a trivial solution (i.e. client-set deadlines), former one probably requires some auto-tuning or guidance. 

Another example is "culprit Keyspaces" from the CEP. If we introduce fairness into our load-balancing, a single keyspace, or a replica set (partition) will not be able to dominate the cluster workload, causing accross the board timeouts. Which means that by simply giving preference to other requests we have naturally shed an imbalance without introducing any rate-limiting.

Maybe the problem is in the terminology, but I think we should choose "prioritize read/write coordinator workload" over "block any {read/write} {coordinator/replication} traffic for a table". Let me make an example. Let's say we implement some algorithm for replenishing request allowance for write replication for a table, and this table runs out of tokens. If we make a decision to shed this request before waiting until the last moment it potentially could have gotten processed, we are risking shedding a request that can be served. But if we gave such request a lower priority, we can get to it when we get to it given current resources and queues. If we still can process it, we will, even if it is on a very end of our timeout guarantee, and I think it does not need to be shed.

I think what I have in mind seems to jibe very well with the points you have brought up:
  * How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as possible for operators
  * How do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on 

To summarize, I think good load balancing and workload prioritization combined with just "give up on a request if we know for a fact we can not process it" feels like a simpler way to solve the two problems you mentioned, and it will help us maximize cluster utilization while not shedding the load that could otherwise have been served, _while_ also reducing latencies across the board.


On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 1:35 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote:
> Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over time, in practice things spike around various events for different applications.
> 
> i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than 1 other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and Accord.
> 
>> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter
> I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).
> 
> It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in.
> 
> So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
>> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of the thread pools
>> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
> followed by:
>> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize thread pools that could be interesting.
> 
> Simple is very much a feature here.
> 
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
>> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.
>> 
>> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However, in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three things:
>> 
>>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and not overloaded)
>>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize overall queueing time)
>>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
>> 
>> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that will not require much operator involvement.
>> 
>> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require workload isolation. 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>>> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own). So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to use, etc). 
>>> 
>>> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers. 
>>> 
>>> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach. 
>>> 
>>> Jordan 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on, but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now to avoid any surprise.
>>>> 
>>>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one get started?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Just created an official CEP-41 <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>]

Are those three sufficient to protect against a client that unexpectedly comes up with 100x a previous provisioned-for workload? Or 100 clients at 100x concurrently? Given that can be 100x in terms of quantity (helped by queueing and shedding), but also 100x in terms of *computational and disk implications*? We don't have control over what users do, and while in an ideal world client applications have fairly predictable workloads over time, in practice things spike around various events for different applications.

i.e. 1 thing in a queue could produce orders of magnitude more work than 1 other thing in a queue. Especially as we move into a world with SAI and Accord.

> we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter
I see these 2 things as complementary, not as interdependent. Is there something I'm missing?

At least for me, mentally I frame this as "How can nodes protect themselves from variable and changing user behavior in a way that's minimally disruptive to the user and requires as little configuration as possible for operators?". Basically, how do we keep the limits of node performance from leaking into the scope of user awareness and responsibility outside simply pushing various exceptions to the client to indicate what's going on (OverloadedException to the client, etc).

It seems to me both rate limiting and resource balancing are integral parts of this, but also parts that could be worked on independently. Were we to wave a magic wand tomorrow and have robust rate limiting, as we improved load balancing over time it would raise the ceiling at which rate limiting kicked in.

So concretely to the thread, I think I agree with Jon:
> * use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of the thread pools
> * reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.
followed by:
> If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize thread pools that could be interesting.

Simple is very much a feature here.

On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, at 5:20 AM, Alex Petrov wrote:
> > Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.
> 
> I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However, in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three things:
> 
>   * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and not overloaded)
>   * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize overall queueing time)
>   * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)
> 
> All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that will not require much operator involvement.
> 
> I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require workload isolation. 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
>> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own). So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to use, etc). 
>> 
>> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers. 
>> 
>> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach. 
>> 
>> Jordan 
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on, but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now to avoid any surprise.
>>> 
>>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one get started?
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Just created an official CEP-41 <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de>]

> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that.

I am more optimistic on that font. I think we can achieve a lot. However, in my opinion, we need to focus on balancing the load rather than rate limiting. Rate limiting is going to be important if/when we decide to implement workload isolation. Until then, I think we should focus on three things:

  * Node health (Nodes should produce useful work and should be stable and not overloaded)
  * Latency (we always need to find an optimal way to process request and minimize overall queueing time)
  * Fairness (avoid workload and utilization imbalances)

All three points are achievable with very straightforward approaches that will not require much operator involvement.

I guess my main point is we need to solve load balancing (summarized by the above three points) before we start working on the rate limiter, but there's a good chance we may not need one apart from use cases that require workload isolation. 


On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 8:14 PM, Jordan West wrote:
> +1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead when disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I am big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own). So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to use, etc). 
> 
> Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers. 
> 
> In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important as its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach. 
> 
> Jordan 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote:
>> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on, but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now to avoid any surprise.
>> 
>> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one get started?
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>>> 
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Just created an official CEP-41 <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jordan West <jo...@gmail.com>]

+1 to Benedict’s (and others) comments on plugability and low overhead when
disabled. The latter I think needs little justification. The reason I am
big on the former is, in my opinion: decisions on approach need to be
settled with numbers not anecdotes or past experience (including my own).
So I would like to see us compare different approaches (what metrics to
use, etc).

Personally, I’m a bit skeptical that we will come up with a metric based
heuristic that works well in most scenarios and doesn’t require significant
knowledge and tuning. I think past implementations of the dynamic snitch
are good evidence of that. However, I expressed the same concerns
internally for a client level project where we exposed metrics to induce
back pressure and early experiments are encouraging / contrary to my
expectations. At different layers different approaches can work better or
worse. Same with different workloads. I don’t think we should dismiss
approaches out right in this thread without hard numbers.

In short, I think the testing and evaluation of this CEP is as important as
its design and implementation. We will need to test a wide variety of
workloads and potentially implementations and that’s where pluggability
will be a huge benefit. I would go as far as saying the CEP should focus
more on a framework for pluggable implementations that has low to zero cost
when disabled than a specific set of metrics to use or specific approach.

Jordan

On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 14:38 Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
> to avoid any surprise.
>
> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>
>
> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
> get started?
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
>>> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just created an official CEP-41
>>>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>>>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>>>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>>>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a
>>>>> few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this
>>>>>> thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>>>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>>>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on
>>>>>> the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>>>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual
>>>>>> known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic
>>>>>> load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes
>>>>>> the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach,
>>>>>> the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable
>>>>>> set-point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get
>>>>>> pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we
>>>>>> facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different
>>>>>> domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with
>>>>>> other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>>>>> holistically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>>>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>>>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>>>>> CASSANDRA-15013
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and
>>>>>> CASSANDRA-16663
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>>>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>>>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>>>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>>>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>>>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>>>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>>>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>>>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>>>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode
>>>>>> traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>>>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>>>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog
>>>>>> and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two
>>>>>> safety valves:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>>>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic
>>>>>> snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that
>>>>>> would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation
>>>>>> messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it
>>>>>> still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>>>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>>>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>>>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>>>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes
>>>>>> the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move
>>>>>> from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting
>>>>>> correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the
>>>>>> native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol
>>>>>> server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched
>>>>>> requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>>>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>>>>> this problem space).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jon Haddad <jo...@rustyrazorblade.com>]

Assuming the intent was to migrate the Google Doc to the CEP, I took
another look.  I think there's some ambitious ideas here, and I appreciate
any effort to improve Cassandra's stability.  I think CASSANDRA-19534
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> was a massive step
in the right direction, and a bit of what's in the doc complements the work
that Alex did.

I think here, there's a case to be made for less is more.  The doc lists
several things that the system could use to apply a rate limiter, but I
think the strongest signals are the queue depth of individual pools (NTR,
Mutation, Read) and rate of timeouts.  I'd like to suggest the first
iteration of this should only look at those things, rather than trying to
utilize system metrics.  You can have high CPU usage with a low queue
depth, and you can have low CPU usage with a deep queue.  In the former
example, there's no need to throttle, the system is just busy.  In the
second, there's a need to throttle.  This is a common issue with say, LWTs,
where the system hasn't been configured with a high enough
concurrent_writes.

I also think the CEP should be simplified further, by enforcing queue depth
limits instead of a rate limit.  Pending requests piling up have been a
huge problem for system instability, which is why CASSANDRA-19534
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> is such a
significant improvement - we're able to shed timed out requests much more
aggressively than we were before which leads to faster recovery times.

So my suggestion is to simplify things, so where we

* use the rate of timeouts to limit the depth of the queues for each of the
thread pools
* reject requests when the queue is full with an OverloadedException.

Ideally the drivers would back off and rate limit, because when you start
rejecting requests that retry, you increase load on other parts of the
system, which affects stability as well.

If you want to follow this up with the ability to dynamically resize thread
pools that could be interesting.  I think that would be the right time to
look a system resources, because if you have 100K pending reads and you're
at 20% CPU w/ low disk latency, you can probably increase
concurrent_reads.

Jon




On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 2:38 PM Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on,
> but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand
> precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being
> produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a
> patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now
> to avoid any surprise.
>
> I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to
> have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its
> own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can
> be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.
>
>
> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
> get started?
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
>>> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just created an official CEP-41
>>>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>>>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>>>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>>>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>>>
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a
>>>>> few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this
>>>>>> thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>>>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>>>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on
>>>>>> the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>>>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual
>>>>>> known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic
>>>>>> load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes
>>>>>> the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach,
>>>>>> the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable
>>>>>> set-point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get
>>>>>> pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we
>>>>>> facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different
>>>>>> domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with
>>>>>> other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>>>>> holistically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>>>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>>>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>>>>> CASSANDRA-15013
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and
>>>>>> CASSANDRA-16663
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>>>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>>>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>>>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>>>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>>>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>>>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>>>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>>>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>>>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode
>>>>>> traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324
>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>>>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>>>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog
>>>>>> and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two
>>>>>> safety valves:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>>>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic
>>>>>> snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that
>>>>>> would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation
>>>>>> messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it
>>>>>> still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>>>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>>>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>>>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>>>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes
>>>>>> the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move
>>>>>> from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting
>>>>>> correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the
>>>>>> native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol
>>>>>> server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched
>>>>>> requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>>>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>>>>> this problem space).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

I just want to flag here that this is a topic I have strong opinions on, but the CEP is not really specific or detailed enough to understand precisely how it will be implemented. So, if a patch is already being produced, most of my feedback is likely to be provided some time after a patch appears, through the normal review process. I want to flag this now to avoid any surprise.

I will say that upfront that, ideally, this system should be designed to have ~zero overhead when disabled, and with minimal coupling (between its own components and C* itself), so that entirely orthogonal approaches can be integrated in future without polluting the codebase.


> On 19 Sep 2024, at 19:14, Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one get started?
> 
> On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>> 
>> Jaydeep
>> 
>> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Just created an official CEP-41 <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not captured in the CEP-41.
>>>> 
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jmckenzie@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive actual SEDA-like approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackliffe@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Patrick McFadin <pm...@gmail.com>]

The work has begun but we don't have a VOTE thread for this CEP. Can one
get started?

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:24 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
>> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just created an official CEP-41
>>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
>>>> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>>
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this
>>>>> thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>>>>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual
>>>>> known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic
>>>>> load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes
>>>>> the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach,
>>>>> the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable
>>>>> set-point.
>>>>>
>>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>>>>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>>>>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>>>>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>>>>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>>>> holistically?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>>>> CASSANDRA-15013
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and
>>>>> CASSANDRA-16663
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode
>>>>> traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>>
>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>>>>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>>>>> valves:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic
>>>>> snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>>>>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>>>>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it
>>>>> still feels like a good idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes
>>>>> the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move
>>>>> from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting
>>>>> correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the
>>>>> native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol
>>>>> server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched
>>>>> requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>>> very strong.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>>>> this problem space).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>]

Sure, Caleb. I will include the work as part of CASSANDRA-19534
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534> in the CEP-41.

Jaydeep

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 7:48 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in
> CASSANDRA-19534 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just created an official CEP-41
>> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
>> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
>> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
>> captured in the CEP-41.
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
>> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
>>> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>
>>>> +1 here.
>>>>
>>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
>>>> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>>
>>>> Jaydeep
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <
>>>> calebrackliffe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>>>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>> very strong.
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual
>>>> known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic
>>>> load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes
>>>> the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach,
>>>> the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable
>>>> set-point.
>>>>
>>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>>>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>>>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>>>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>>>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>>> holistically?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>>>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>
>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>>>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>>>> valves:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>>>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>>>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>>>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>>>> feels like a good idea.
>>>>
>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes
>>>> the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move
>>>> from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting
>>>> correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the
>>>> native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol
>>>> server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched
>>>> requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>>> very strong.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>>> this problem space).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>]

FYI, there is some ongoing sort-of-related work going on in CASSANDRA-19534
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-19534>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 6:35 PM Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Just created an official CEP-41
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
> incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
> if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
> captured in the CEP-41.
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
> chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
>> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
>> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>
>>> +1 here.
>>>
>>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
>>> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>>
>>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>>
>>> Jaydeep
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>> very strong.
>>>
>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
>>> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
>>> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
>>> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
>>> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>>
>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>>> holistically?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>
>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>
>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>
>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>>> valves:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>>> coordinating reads and writes.
>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>
>>>
>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>
>>>
>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>>> feels like a good idea.
>>>
>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>
>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
>>> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
>>> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
>>> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
>>> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
>>> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
>>> for processing.
>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>>> very strong.
>>>
>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>>> this problem space).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>]

Just created an official CEP-41
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/CEP-41+%28DRAFT%29+Apache+Cassandra+Unified+Rate+Limiter>
incorporating the feedback from this discussion. Feel free to let me know
if I may have missed some important feedback in this thread that is not
captured in the CEP-41.

Jaydeep

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jaydeep Chovatia <
chovatia.jaydeep@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
> days and update this thread with that CEP number.
> Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>
>> +1 here.
>>
>> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
>> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>>
>> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
>> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
>> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>>
>> Jaydeep
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
>> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>>
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
>> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
>> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
>> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
>> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
>> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>
>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>> holistically?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>
>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>
>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>
>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>> valves:
>>
>>
>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>> coordinating reads and writes.
>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>
>>
>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>
>>
>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>> feels like a good idea.
>>
>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>
>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
>> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
>> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
>> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
>> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
>> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
>> for processing.
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>> this problem space).
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>]

Thanks, Josh. I will file an official CEP with all the details in a few
days and update this thread with that CEP number.
Thanks a lot everyone for providing valuable insights!

Jaydeep

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:24 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> +1 here.
>
> Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread
> into a draft seems like a solid next step.
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
>
> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to
> cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we
> should file an official CEP and take it there?
>
> Jaydeep
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>
> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
> holistically?
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>
> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>
> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Hey all,
>
> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>  and CASSANDRA-16663
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>
> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is
> CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>,
> which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and
> have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>
> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
> valves:
>
>
> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
> coordinating reads and writes.
> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to
> avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>
>
> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>
>
> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
> feels like a good idea.
>
> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>
> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
> for processing.
> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
> very strong.
>
> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
> this problem space).
>
>
>
>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>]

> Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
+1 here.

Synthesizing your gdoc, Caleb's work, and the feedback from this thread into a draft seems like a solid next step.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Jaydeep Chovatia wrote:
> I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should file an official CEP and take it there?
> 
> Jaydeep
> 
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>> 
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>> 
>> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I figured I'd post it just in case :)
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> __
>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>> 
>>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more holistically?
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013> and CASSANDRA-16663 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic) is CASSANDRA-17324 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety valves:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from coordinating reads and writes.
>>>>>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still feels like a good idea.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool for processing.
>>>>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain very strong.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address this problem space).
>>> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Discuss] Generic Purpose Rate Limiter in Cassandra

[Jaydeep Chovatia <ch...@gmail.com>]

I see a lot of great ideas being discussed or proposed in the past to cover
the most common rate limiter candidate use cases. Do folks think we should
file an official CEP and take it there?

Jaydeep

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:30 AM Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just remembered the other day that I had done a quick writeup on the
> state of compaction stress-related throttling in the project:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dfTEcKVidRKC1EWu3SO1kE1iVLMdaJ9uY1WMpS3P_hs/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I'm sure most of it is old news to the people on this thread, but I
> figured I'd post it just in case :)
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:58 AM Josh McKenzie <jm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> Seems to me that our historical strategy was to address individual known
>> cases one-by-one rather than looking for a more holistic load-balancing and
>> load-shedding solution. While the engineer in me likes the elegance of a
>> broad, more-inclusive *actual SEDA-like* approach, the pragmatist in me
>> wonders how far we think we are today from a stable set-point.
>>
>> i.e. are we facing a handful of cases where nodes can still get pushed
>> over and then cascade that we can surgically address, or are we facing a
>> broader lack of back-pressure that rears its head in different domains
>> (client -> coordinator, coordinator -> replica, internode with other
>> operations, etc) at surprising times and should be considered more
>> holistically?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 12:31 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote:
>>
>> I almost forgot CASSANDRA-15817, which introduced
>> reject_repair_compaction_threshold, which provides a mechanism to stop
>> repairs while compaction is underwater.
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Caleb Rackliffe <ca...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm a bit late to the discussion. I see that we've already discussed
>> CASSANDRA-15013 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-15013>
>>  and CASSANDRA-16663
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-16663> at least in
>> passing. Having written the latter, I'd be the first to admit it's a crude
>> tool, although it's been useful here and there, and provides a couple
>> primitives that may be useful for future work. As Scott mentions, while it
>> is configurable at runtime, it is not adaptive, although we did
>> make configuration easier in CASSANDRA-17423
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17423>. It also is
>> global to the node, although we've lightly discussed some ideas around
>> making it more granular. (For example, keyspace-based limiting, or limiting
>> "domains" tagged by the client in requests, could be interesting.) It also
>> does not deal with inter-node traffic, of course.
>>
>> Something we've not yet mentioned (that does address internode traffic)
>> is CASSANDRA-17324
>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-17324>, which I
>> proposed shortly after working on the native request limiter (and have just
>> not had much time to return to). The basic idea is this:
>>
>> When a node is struggling under the weight of a compaction backlog and
>> becomes a cause of increased read latency for clients, we have two safety
>> valves:
>>
>> 1.) Disabling the native protocol server, which stops the node from
>> coordinating reads and writes.
>> 2.) Jacking up the severity on the node, which tells the dynamic snitch
>> to avoid the node for reads from other coordinators.
>>
>> These are useful, but we don’t appear to have any mechanism that would
>> allow us to temporarily reject internode hint, batch, and mutation messages
>> that could further delay resolution of the compaction backlog.
>>
>>
>> Whether it's done as part of a larger framework or on its own, it still
>> feels like a good idea.
>>
>> Thinking in terms of opportunity costs here (i.e. where we spend our
>> finite engineering time to holistically improve the experience of operating
>> this database) is healthy, but we probably haven't reached the point of
>> diminishing returns on nodes being able to protect themselves from clients
>> and from other nodes. I would just keep in mind two things:
>>
>> 1.) The effectiveness of rate-limiting in the system (which includes the
>> database and all clients) as a whole necessarily decreases as we move from
>> the application to the lowest-level database internals. Limiting correctly
>> at the client will save more resources than limiting at the native protocol
>> server, and limiting correctly at the native protocol server will save more
>> resources than limiting after we've dispatched requests to some thread pool
>> for processing.
>> 2.) We should make sure the links between the "known" root causes of
>> cascading failures and the mechanisms we introduce to avoid them remain
>> very strong.
>>
>> In any case, I'd be happy to help out in any way I can as this moves
>> forward (especially as it relates to our past/current attempts to address
>> this problem space).
>>
>>
>>