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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by sebb <se...@gmail.com> on 2013/09/05 11:24:31 UTC
User questions on dev mailing list
The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
the user list/forum
Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are several:
- other users don't benefit from the thread
- the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
- the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
Just a thought.
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le 05/09/2013 21:13, Andrea Pescetti a écrit :
> Considering the people we are dealing with (users who are often unfamiliar with mailing lists) I think that we should continue to moderate messages and replying, but add to the reply something like:
>
> Please note that this mailing list is not the right place for user support. Further questions should be sent to the user support channels: http://www.openoffice.org/support/
+1.
Often in such case, I add a note in the message, replying to the user list and moving the dev address from To to CC.
But for the moment I havent seen many topics continued on the user list afterward (no reply at all in fact).
Hagar
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Peter Junge wrote:
> Unfortunately it's not possible to already
> redirecting to the user list during moderating. I would guess at least
> 80% of user topics here are moderated in. Didn't we discuss mechanisms
> to restrict postings to dev@ a couple of months ago?
Considering the people we are dealing with (users who are often
unfamiliar with mailing lists) I think that we should continue to
moderate messages and replying, but add to the reply something like:
Please note that this mailing list is not the right place for user
support. Further questions should be sent to the user support channels:
http://www.openoffice.org/support/
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 5 September 2013 12:15, Peter Junge <pe...@gmx.org> wrote:
> On 9/5/2013 5:24 PM, sebb wrote:
>>
>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>> the user list/forum
>>
>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>
>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>> several:
>>
>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>
>
> +1 to all of the above. Unfortunately it's not possible to already
> redirecting to the user list during moderating. I would guess at least 80%
> of user topics here are moderated in. Didn't we discuss mechanisms to
> restrict postings to dev@ a couple of months ago?
A moderator can always reject a posting to the developer list with a
polite message asking them to subscribe/post elsewhere.
For example:
%%% Start comment
This message is off-topic for this mailing list.
Please subscribe to the Apache OpenOffice user mailing list and post
there - thanks.
See:
http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
%%% End comment
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>>
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>
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Peter Junge <pe...@gmx.org>.
On 9/5/2013 5:24 PM, sebb wrote:
> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> the user list/forum
>
> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>
> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are several:
>
> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
+1 to all of the above. Unfortunately it's not possible to already
redirecting to the user list during moderating. I would guess at least
80% of user topics here are moderated in. Didn't we discuss mechanisms
to restrict postings to dev@ a couple of months ago?
>
> Just a thought.
>
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le 06/09/2013 22:37, Andrew Rist a écrit :
> Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with email as a tool as opposed to a forum. If you are not familiar with forums in general, our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate - there's a lot of info there.
>
> Do we have a way of bridging the two? Is there a way to have an email address (e.g. forum_questions@openoffice.org) that autoposts to a catch all forum topic. Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be autosubscribed for replies?
> I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide both a bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to provide for feedback without having dev become help.
If people are not comfortable with forum then subscribing them automatically is not the best method I guess. And anyway, they need to give a password. So I don't think we can have a bridge.
Personally, I would change the layout of the mailing list wiki page and put the user list in the first place and heavily highlight it, and make clear that the other list are very specific.
Hagar
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/6/2013 4:41 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them in
>> a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them away from a
>> specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not making the support
>> forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said something like, "For the
>> fastest and most expert response, post your question to...."? Make the
>> forums sound like the most attractive option. We know they are the best
>> place for questions, of course. But we ought to describe it equally
>> attractively. -Rob
>>
>
> Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with email
> as a tool as opposed to a forum. If you are not familiar with forums in
> general, our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate - there's a lot of
> info there.
>
I think you could be right about this. The other thing is I think people
want some immediate way, once they get to the contact page, to actually
"DO" something there -- e-mail or a web form -- to get help. So sending
them on to another page is frustrating.
On the "dev" email link being there. I think this is historical from when
we moved the site to Apache and were just getting things started, and maybe
even before we set up users@openoffice.apache.org. It's placement there now
is not really relevant.
Assuming we put in a link to "users" in the first paragraph, I think the
rest of the e-mail links, with the existing subject lines which are
helpful, should stay.
>
> Do we have a way of bridging the two? Is there a way to have an email
> address (e.g. forum_questions@openoffice.org**) that autoposts to a catch
> all forum topic. Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be
> autosubscribed for replies?
> I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide
> both a bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to
> provide for feedback without having dev become help.
>
> A.
>
>
>
>>> <more snip>
>
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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>
>
--
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MzK
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
-- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>.
On 9/6/2013 4:41 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
<snip>
> Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them
> in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them
> away from a specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not making
> the support forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said something
> like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your question
> to...."? Make the forums sound like the most attractive option. We
> know they are the best place for questions, of course. But we ought to
> describe it equally attractively. -Rob
Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with
email as a tool as opposed to a forum. If you are not familiar with
forums in general, our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate -
there's a lot of info there.
Do we have a way of bridging the two? Is there a way to have an email
address (e.g. forum_questions@openoffice.org) that autoposts to a catch
all forum topic. Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be
autosubscribed for replies?
I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide
both a bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to
provide for feedback without having dev become help.
A.
>>
<more snip>
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/06/2013 01:41 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> that's the pre-constructed subject for the first entry in:
>>>> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
>>>> websites.."
>>>>
>>>> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
>>>> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
>>>>
>>>> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
>>>> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
>>>> however.
>>>>
>>>> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
>>>> could easily put in a mailto: to "users@openoffice.apache.org" the way
>>>> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
>>>> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is
>>>> this
>>>> a good idea?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something
>>> like "[Contact]"
>>
>>
>> I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it comes
>> from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text doesn't fit to
>> the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.
>>
>> Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?
>>
>> OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@
>> list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to
>> users@ and the general mailing list webpage.
>>
>
> With a million downloads per week nothing will work perfectly accept
> removing any mention of the dev list from that page.
>
> We played with adjusting the wording on the website, and the ordering
> of things on the page. That improved things a little, I think. But
> even a small human error rate multiplied by 65 million will be
> significant.
>
> Maybe we shouldn't have a a subject line at all? That would force the
> sender to think and write one. Many email clients force that. If we
> predefine a subject than many users will just use it unchanged. This
> is OK in some cases, where the intent is clearly expressed by the
> subject, like "I am starting the Introduction to Contributing to
> Apache OpenOffice" emails. But it doesn't work well in other cases.
We had no subject line before the change and it was proven not to work.
And additionally we didn't know where the mails came from.
Now there is a preset subject and - unfortunately - it still doesn't work.
So, going back to not offer a subject line won't change anything to work
better.
> Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them
> in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them
> away from a specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not
> making the support forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said
> something like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your
> question to...."? Make the forums sound like the most attractive
> option. We know they are the best place for questions, of course.
> But we ought to describe it equally attractively.
Yes, that could maybe work. If someone has ideas to improve the wording
and to guide the users into the wanted direction, then change, commit
and wait for the results.
I as non-native speaker think I'm no longer suitable to do these changes.
Marcus
>>>>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>>>>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir<ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>>>>>
>>>>> answered
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> several:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>>>>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>>>>>>>>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
>>>>>>>> list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
>>>>>>>> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>>>>>>>> alias.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>>>>>>>> these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web
>>>>>>>> page
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>>>>>>>> were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
>>>>>>>> to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
>>>>>>>> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>>>>>>>> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> send to a different list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>>>>>>> answered ...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The second heading currently says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>>>>>>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>>>>>>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>>>>>>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>>>>>>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
>>>>>> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the
>>>>>
>>>>> context,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
>>>>>
>>>>> heading
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
>>>>>
>>>>> list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for
>>>>>> contacting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Rob
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>>>>
>>>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>>>>
>>>
>>> that's the pre-constructed subject for the first entry in:
>>> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
>>> websites.."
>>>
>>> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
>>> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
>>>
>>> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
>>> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
>>> however.
>>>
>>> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
>>> could easily put in a mailto: to "users@openoffice.apache.org" the way
>>> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
>>> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is
>>> this
>>> a good idea?
>>
>>
>> Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something
>> like "[Contact]"
>
>
> I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it comes
> from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text doesn't fit to
> the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.
>
> Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?
>
> OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@
> list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to
> users@ and the general mailing list webpage.
>
With a million downloads per week nothing will work perfectly accept
removing any mention of the dev list from that page.
We played with adjusting the wording on the website, and the ordering
of things on the page. That improved things a little, I think. But
even a small human error rate multiplied by 65 million will be
significant.
Maybe we shouldn't have a a subject line at all? That would force the
sender to think and write one. Many email clients force that. If we
predefine a subject than many users will just use it unchanged. This
is OK in some cases, where the intent is clearly expressed by the
subject, like "I am starting the Introduction to Contributing to
Apache OpenOffice" emails. But it doesn't work well in other cases.
Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them
in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them
away from a specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not
making the support forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said
something like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your
question to...."? Make the forums sound like the most attractive
option. We know they are the best place for questions, of course.
But we ought to describe it equally attractively.
-Rob
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>>>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>>>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir<ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>>>>
>>>> answered
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> several:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>>>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>>>>>>>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
>>>>>>> list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
>>>>>>> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>>>>>>> alias.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>>>>>>> these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web
>>>>>>> page
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>>>>>>> were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
>>>>>>> to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
>>>>>>> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>>>>>>> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> send to a different list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>>>>>> answered ...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The second heading currently says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>>>>>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>>>>>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>>>>>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>>>>>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
>>>>> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the
>>>>
>>>> context,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
>>>>
>>>> heading
>>>>>
>>>>> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
>>>>
>>>> list
>>>>>
>>>>> page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for
>>>>> contacting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rob
>
>
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>
> On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>>>
>>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>>>
>>
>> that's the pre-constructed subject for the first entry in:
>> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
>> websites.."
>>
>> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
>> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
>>
>> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
>> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
>> however.
>>
>> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
>> could easily put in a mailto: to "users@openoffice.apache.org" the way
>> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
>> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
>> a good idea?
>
> Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something like "[Contact]"
I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it
comes from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text
doesn't fit to the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.
Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?
OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@
list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to
users@ and the general mailing list webpage.
Marcus
>>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir<ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb<se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>>> answered
>>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>>> several:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>>>>>>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
>>>>>> list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
>>>>>> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>>>>>> alias.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>>>>>> these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
>>>>> is this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>>>>>> were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
>>>>>> to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
>>>>>> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>>>>>> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
>>>>>> send to a different list.
>>>>>
>>>>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>>>>> answered ...]
>>>>>
>>>>> The second heading currently says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>>>>
>>>>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>>>>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>>>>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>>>>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>>>>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
>>>> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the
>>> context,
>>>> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
>>> heading
>>>> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
>>> list
>>>> page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for contacting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> -Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>>
>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>>
>
> that's the pre-constructed subject for the first entry in:
> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
> websites.."
>
> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
>
> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
> however.
>
> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
> could easily put in a mailto: to "users@openoffice.apache.org" the way
> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
> a good idea?
Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something like "[Contact]"
Regards,
Dave
>
>
>
>>
>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>>
>>
>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>> answered
>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>> several:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>>>>>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
>>>>> list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
>>>>> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>>>>> alias.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>>>>> these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
>>>> is this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>>>>>
>>>>> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>>>>> were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
>>>>> to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
>>>>> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>>>>> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
>>>>> send to a different list.
>>>>
>>>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>>>> answered ...]
>>>>
>>>> The second heading currently says:
>>>>
>>>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>>>
>>>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>>>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>>>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>>>
>>>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>>>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>>>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
>>> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the
>> context,
>>> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
>> heading
>>> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
>> list
>>> page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for contacting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> MzK
>>>
>>> "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
>>> to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
>>> -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
> to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
> -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>
> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>
that's the pre-constructed subject for the first entry in:
"If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
websites.."
this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
however.
If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
could easily put in a mailto: to "users@openoffice.apache.org" the way
we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
a good idea?
>
> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>
>
> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> >> >> the user list/forum
> >> >>
> >> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
> answered
> >> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
> >> >>
> >> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
> >> several:
> >> >>
> >> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> >> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> >> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> >> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
> >> >>
> >> >> Just a thought.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
> >> > list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
> >> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> >> > alias.
> >> >
> >> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> >> > these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
> >> >
> >> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
> >> is this:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
> >> >
> >> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> >> > were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
> >> > to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
> >> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> >> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> >> > send to a different list.
> >>
> >> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
> >> answered ...]
> >>
> >> The second heading currently says:
> >>
> >> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
> >>
> >> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
> >> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
> >> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
> >>
> >> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
> >> appropriate to contact the team directly.
> >> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
> > removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the
> context,
> > I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
> heading
> > at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
> list
> > page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for contacting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > -Rob
> >> >
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >> >
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MzK
> >
> > "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
> > to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
> > -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
-- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
"Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>> >> the user list/forum
>> >>
>> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
>> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>> >>
>> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>> several:
>> >>
>> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>> >>
>> >> Just a thought.
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
>> > list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
>> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>> > alias.
>> >
>> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>> > these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>> >
>> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
>> is this:
>> >
>> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>> >
>> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>> > were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
>> > to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
>> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
>> > send to a different list.
>>
>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>> answered ...]
>>
>> The second heading currently says:
>>
>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>
>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>
>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>
>
> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the context,
> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a heading
> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing list
> page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for contacting.
>
>
>
>
>> > -Rob
>> >
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
> to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
> -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> >> the user list/forum
> >>
> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
> >>
> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
> several:
> >>
> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
> >>
> >> Just a thought.
> >>
> >
> > This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
> > list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> > alias.
> >
> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> > these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
> >
> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
> is this:
> >
> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
> >
> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> > were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
> > to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> > send to a different list.
>
> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
> answered ...]
>
> The second heading currently says:
>
> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>
> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>
> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
> appropriate to contact the team directly.
> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>
Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely. Honestly, given the context,
I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a heading
at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing list
page. That might encourage users to make a better choice for contacting.
> > -Rob
> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
-- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain
Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>> the user list/forum
>>
>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>
>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are several:
>>
>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>
> This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
> list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> alias.
>
> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>
> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page is this:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>
> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
> to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> send to a different list.
[And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
answered ...]
The second heading currently says:
"If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
[Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
appropriate to contact the team directly.
Possibly move it further down the page as well.
> -Rob
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: User questions on dev mailing list
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> the user list/forum
>
> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>
> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are several:
>
> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>
> Just a thought.
>
This is all true. We also get user questions to the private mailing
list, and via the press alias address. And we also get product
support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
alias.
But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
these things. But it is a puzzle why this happens.
The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page is this:
http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
were first and more prominent. But we still get misdirected emails,
to the dev, private, etc. lists. But with a million downloads a week
there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
send to a different list.
-Rob
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org