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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com> on 2003/09/10 12:49:40 UTC
Usability issues & general ranting
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Hi all
I've been trying to get Maven to work with my project. I've
spent about a day on that, with very little to show.
First I'd like to say that I think its an extremely bad decision
not to support CVS libraries (that is, the classic lib
directory that typically contains the jars you are dependent
on). Well, actually it is supported to some degree, but
that support is similar to the support a rope gives a hanged
man, which is not very desirable :-) I think the repository idea
is excellent, but if you are going to establish a broad user
base such as ant has, you have to support the way people are
working now. A no. 1 requirement for Maven should be that it
runs without hiccups on a standard project with a source directory,
a test-source directory and a lib directory, preferably without
any configuration whatsoever.
To give you some idea of the problems I've been encountering, then
it was first of all to get the thing to compile my source using
"maven jar".
I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated a
local repository out of my library using a batch file.
At that point, unit tests wouldn't run, with a ClassNotFoundException
on JUnitTestRunner. If I removed the test clause from the project
descriptor, a NullPointerException occurred!?! I then found that
it is necessary to set a property to skip the tests (this is bad
design
imho, it should be enough to remove the test clause from the project
descriptor). At this point, Maven finally gave me a jar.
Then I tried to generate the web site this morning, which gives me
a InvocationTargetException when running the maven-changelog-plugin.
Btw, I re-enabled the tests this morning, at which time they ran
(why is very mysterious to me), but ended with an
EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (that probably warrants a bug report to
Sun).
It's a test suite that runs fine under Ant and IntelliJ.
I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
With regards
Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson
Dimon Software
http://www.dimonsoftware.com
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, [iso-8859-1] Gu�laugur Stef�n Egilsson wrote:
> I would like to contribute to this project, and I certainly will
> if I find the time, since it shows enormous promise (and does
> deliver on it if you spend enough time on getting around its
> problems). But I repeat, that the impression on me is that Maven
> will not be adopted by people working under heavy time constraints,
> as most of us are.
Hey, I criticise it too. Constructive criticism is useful.
It sounds like the problem you have is that you're trying something new
out on a time-critical piece of work. That's always going to be dangerous,
be it Ant, Fortran or Maven.
If you have any simple reusable libraries, I've found these to be useful
for playing with Maven. Also, don't try to enforce your own style of doing
things on Maven. Life is simpler if you go with the standard way of
structure files etc. Lastly, when you hit a problem, post it to the list.
Someone usually pops up with the answer.
Hen
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com>.
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> > I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My
> > > impression of
> > the state of the project is that it should not be in beta,
> the quality
> > is more like that of an alpha-status project.
>
> We didn't force you to try Maven. It is regrettable that you
> wasted some of your time, but this fact does not entitle you
> to waste our time by flaming us this way.
>
> This is a community effort. There is plenty of ways you could
> contribute to it, but the sort of criticism you are giving is
> certainly not one of them.
>
I a perfectly aware of that, and I have contributed to other
projects (although I wish I had much more time to do so).
I certainly did not intend this to be a flame, but
rather an input from somebody who is trying to use this project.
I doubt that I am the only one having problems of this sort,
therefore you should know.
I would like to contribute to this project, and I certainly will
if I find the time, since it shows enormous promise (and does
deliver on it if you spend enough time on getting around its
problems). But I repeat, that the impression on me is that Maven
will not be adopted by people working under heavy time constraints,
as most of us are.
Make love, not flames :-)
Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson
Dimon Software
http://www.dimonsoftware.com
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Rafal Krzewski <Ra...@caltha.pl>.
> I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
We didn't force you to try Maven. It is regrettable that you wasted
some of your time, but this fact does not entitle you to waste our
time by flaming us this way.
This is a community effort. There is plenty of ways you could contribute
to it, but the sort of criticism you are giving is certainly not one
of them.
R.
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by matt <jo...@whitesmiths.com.au>.
> I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
I have read enough to understand what the Maven team are trying to
achieve, and I believe it to be a Very Worthy Goal. I'm a keen
believer, but not yet a full practitioner.
Unfortunately, back in March(?) when I first tried it out, it was
definitely alpha-quality software. The only reason I say that, is that
the APIs and structure were changing quite dramatically between releases
(b8->b9). Maven was a moving target, and some of the breakages really
hurt. Beta software should be structurally complete, just with bugs.
Having said that, my biggest problem by a large margin was that our
build process was already so convoluted, and our project structure so
haphazard, that it just didn't fit into maven. If we had been using
maven from the start...
Gulli, I'm hoping that your day spent on maven will have opened your
eyes to quite a few things about the drawbacks to your existing project
handling. At least, you may realise the advantages once you see ten
developers lose an hour or so whenever a dependency change is made, or
your test team finds basic bugs because the test suite isn't up to date.
Once maven is fully-fledged, I envisage a future where we can spend more
time on coding, and less on fixing the build.
Matt
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
At least one of the memory issues is solved.
The big one is still ongoing.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
Colin Kilburn <co...@accesstec.ca> wrote on 10/09/2003 04:07:58 PM:
> >
> >
> >I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> >of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> >quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
> >
> >
> I too have had to give up on maven for a while, but my attitude is that
> I can't exactly rant if I haven't paid for or contributed to it yet.
>
> It took me a couple of weeks to get my project building properly with
> maven, and once it did, I was very very pleased. Nice work! This
> lasted about a month until surprisingly (to me) I seemed to outgrow it,
> getting OutOfMemory errors while running my junit tests once I had
> enough of them. When my post for hints went unanswered, I had to revert
> to ant for my builds because it doesn't seem to leak when I run tests.
>
> I'm hoping that the memory issues will be resolved soon (does anyone
> know what causes them?), as I'd already sold my company and a customer
> on maven (making me look good, while it lasted, thank you). Still
> watching the list, just haven't been using it for a month.
>
> my $0.02,
> Colin
>
>
>
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Colin Kilburn <co...@accesstec.ca>.
>
>
>I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
>of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
>quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
>
>
I too have had to give up on maven for a while, but my attitude is that
I can't exactly rant if I haven't paid for or contributed to it yet.
It took me a couple of weeks to get my project building properly with
maven, and once it did, I was very very pleased. Nice work! This
lasted about a month until surprisingly (to me) I seemed to outgrow it,
getting OutOfMemory errors while running my junit tests once I had
enough of them. When my post for hints went unanswered, I had to revert
to ant for my builds because it doesn't seem to leak when I run tests.
I'm hoping that the memory issues will be resolved soon (does anyone
know what causes them?), as I'd already sold my company and a customer
on maven (making me look good, while it lasted, thank you). Still
watching the list, just haven't been using it for a month.
my $0.02,
Colin
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Martin Skopp <sk...@riege.de>.
*PLONK*
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by James CE Johnson <jc...@tragus.org>.
> Sounds like a good idea.
>
> Volunteering to write it?
I once wrote a perl script to convert a maven b4 repository to b5 format.
It should still work and I'm certainly happy to donate it (again) to the
cause :-)
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
>
>
> Paul Libbrecht <pa...@activemath.org> wrote on 10/09/2003 11:04:13 PM:
>
>> I would like to insist that this is very good practice to my opinion
>> and a special paragraph on that should be made in the manual.
>>
>> We basically have a local-repository containing private stuffs (e.g.
>> things we can't distribute) and a shared ".maven".
>>
>> And things seem to go well.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On Mercredi, sept 10, 2003, at 14:54 Europe/Paris,
>> dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
>>
>> >> I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated
>> a local repository out of my library using a batch file.
>> > And that took how long? How many jar files do you have??
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Sounds like a good idea.
Volunteering to write it?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
Paul Libbrecht <pa...@activemath.org> wrote on 10/09/2003 11:04:13 PM:
> I would like to insist that this is very good practice to my opinion
> and a special paragraph on that should be made in the manual.
>
> We basically have a local-repository containing private stuffs (e.g.
> things we can't distribute) and a shared ".maven".
>
> And things seem to go well.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On Mercredi, sept 10, 2003, at 14:54 Europe/Paris,
> dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
>
> >> I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated a
> >> local repository out of my library using a batch file.
> > And that took how long? How many jar files do you have??
>
>
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Paul Libbrecht <pa...@activemath.org>.
I would like to insist that this is very good practice to my opinion
and a special paragraph on that should be made in the manual.
We basically have a local-repository containing private stuffs (e.g.
things we can't distribute) and a shared ".maven".
And things seem to go well.
Paul
On Mercredi, sept 10, 2003, at 14:54 Europe/Paris,
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
>> I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated a
>> local repository out of my library using a batch file.
> And that took how long? How many jar files do you have??
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote on 11/09/2003 01:54:30 AM:
>
>
> On 10 Sep 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> > > But your point is taken. I'll just have to find some
> > > time to get my itch satisfied too ;-)
> >
> > By submitting a patch or asking an intelligent question is likely to
get
> > you orders of magnitude more help from those working on Maven.
>
> Can the wiki work in this way? Although I've not tried it anywhere, it
> always seems to me that the wiki is a perfect way to work on prototype
> documents, with user involvement, then promote them to the main site as
a
> way to declare them 'production'.
Yes! That's exactly what it's there for.
> If I [as a user] ask a question concerning XXX and I get a reply, would
it
> be good for me to go add it to wiki somewhere? Should I let a Mavenite
do
> it?
Nope, go add it and let us all know.
> If I have a question I think should be on the FAQ, how does this get
> managed?
Add it to the FAQ on the wiki, and let someone know. Or even better send
in a patch for the FAQ.
> I'd like to add thigns to the wiki more, but am a little hesitant
because
> I don't understand how wiki's get managed. Is it a complete
free-for-all,
> or intended to be an open, yet managed free for all?
It's a free for all, but some of us get notified whenever anything
changes....
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On 10 Sep 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > But your point is taken. I'll just have to find some
> > time to get my itch satisfied too ;-)
>
> By submitting a patch or asking an intelligent question is likely to get
> you orders of magnitude more help from those working on Maven.
Can the wiki work in this way? Although I've not tried it anywhere, it
always seems to me that the wiki is a perfect way to work on prototype
documents, with user involvement, then promote them to the main site as a
way to declare them 'production'.
If I [as a user] ask a question concerning XXX and I get a reply, would it
be good for me to go add it to wiki somewhere? Should I let a Mavenite do
it?
If I have a question I think should be on the FAQ, how does this get
managed?
I'd like to add thigns to the wiki more, but am a little hesitant because
I don't understand how wiki's get managed. Is it a complete free-for-all,
or intended to be an open, yet managed free for all?
Hen
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Constructive stuff follows...
Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com> wrote on 11/09/2003
12:46:19 AM:
> I'll try to explain my motivations for sending the original
> post. To begin with, there were some assumptions built in, which
> I'll try to cite here:
>
> 1) The authors have the ambition to make this project widespread,
> and to have significant impact on the Java developer community.
Part one of that, ok. Part two, I'm not so sure.
> 2) Maven adds an additional level of abstraction to project
> building (relative to Ant), covering publishing, metrics, reuse
> as well as other aspects of software projects.
>
> This would indicate that it should be a good idea to support
> generally accepted project structure so migrating from Ant is
> straightforward. I guess I was wrong.
I think your idea of generally accepted project structure may not gel with
our experience.
> I didn't believe I had the time to go through a ask-20-questions-
> to-get-this to work, so I made a best effort in one day, and that
> was all I could afford to spend on this for now. Therefore I
> sent this e-mail citing my problems and experience, with the intent
> to share my experience with those who care (not caring if that
> would be anyone). I'm sorry that managed to insult you guys,
> that was not my intent.
Next time you have to do this sort of thing under pressure, jump into
irc://irc.codehaus.org/#maven and ask your questions there. That and a few
simple things will save you a lot of time.
It didn't seem like you were sharing your experiences and problems with
those who care. It seemed like a slam fest.
I'm hoping you get the time to use Maven again, and find out that it does
really work. Best of luck,
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com>.
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> People confuse Apache with some entity that sells products
> and as such think we're somehow obligated to adhere to some
> 'customer is first' mentality. We make software because we
> like to and we share almost all of what we do because we're
> gracious. Yes, gracious. You're not going to find many people
> like you find at Apache where almost 100% of the fruits of
> our labours are given away for free. Everything I write is
> OSS, even my paid job. Bob gives everything he writes away
> for free. Dion, Ben and others volunteer immense amounts of
> time toward Maven.
>
I feel that the response to this ranting of mine is getting a
bit disproportionate.
I'll try to explain my motivations for sending the original
post. To begin with, there were some assumptions built in, which
I'll try to cite here:
1) The authors have the ambition to make this project widespread,
and to have significant impact on the Java developer community.
2) Maven adds an additional level of abstraction to project
building (relative to Ant), covering publishing, metrics, reuse
as well as other aspects of software projects.
This would indicate that it should be a good idea to support
generally accepted project structure so migrating from Ant is
straightforward. I guess I was wrong.
I didn't believe I had the time to go through a ask-20-questions-
to-get-this to work, so I made a best effort in one day, and that
was all I could afford to spend on this for now. Therefore I
sent this e-mail citing my problems and experience, with the intent
to share my experience with those who care (not caring if that
would be anyone). I'm sorry that managed to insult you guys,
that was not my intent.
> By submitting a patch or asking an intelligent question is
> likely to get you orders of magnitude more help from those
> working on Maven.
Of course it would. So much to do, sooo little time :(
Take care
- -Gulli
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 09:28, Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> > The original author does need to learn that open source
> > coding is not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product
> > to lots and lots of people, but to satisfy the itch of the
> > people involved.
>
> There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
> success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
> project.
I think you have succumbed to the Nielsen software ratings. As much as
most things are market driven I am an ardent believer in ignoring market
forces. Just because people want something doesn't mean it's a good
idea, even if it 'sells'. You probably tried to do something you were
used to doing with Ant and a lot of times things just don't map like
that.
People confuse Apache with some entity that sells products and as such
think we're somehow obligated to adhere to some 'customer is first'
mentality. We make software because we like to and we share almost all
of what we do because we're gracious. Yes, gracious. You're not going to
find many people like you find at Apache where almost 100% of the fruits
of our labours are given away for free. Everything I write is OSS, even
my paid job. Bob gives everything he writes away for free. Dion, Ben and
others volunteer immense amounts of time toward Maven.
Your critism is mild in comparison to some other pointless rants but
none of us cater to whiners. We're not the Maven support department, we
know the docs are lacking and you have to dig and I'll never head a PR
department. Those are all facts.
> And a top level apache project would have more
> ambition than this I thought.
I wouldn't deign to understand what are ambitions are. I don't think you
really have any idea what's in store.
> But your point is taken. I'll just have to find some
> time to get my itch satisfied too ;-)
By submitting a patch or asking an intelligent question is likely to get
you orders of magnitude more help from those working on Maven.
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
Nope. I've been running on Windows XP, JDK 1.4, 512MB ram, Pentium 4 for
about 2 years now and I've been building maven from source since then
(ant -f build-bootstrap.xml) without error! There has been only about
3-4 occurences in 2 years when I could not build when I tried... These
days, I'm building Maven HEAD about once every week or so without any
problem at all.
-Vincent
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafal Krzewski [mailto:Rafal.Krzewski@caltha.pl]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 14:33
> To: Maven Users List
> Subject: Re: Usability issues & general ranting
>
> Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > Windows XP prof, Sun Jdk 1.4, 512MB ram, Pentium 4
>
> I'm on Linux, the rest basicly the same, so the OS is probably the
main
> difference. This is still strange though, because some of the core
> developers are using windwos IIRC.
>
> What specific problems you are having, could you post the error
messages?
>
> R.
>
>
>
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Rafal Krzewski <Ra...@caltha.pl>.
Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> Windows XP prof, Sun Jdk 1.4, 512MB ram, Pentium 4
I'm on Linux, the rest basicly the same, so the OS is probably the main
difference. This is still strange though, because some of the core
developers are using windwos IIRC.
What specific problems you are having, could you post the error messages?
R.
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Just like me :-)
I bootstrap daily.....
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
"Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@comcast.net> wrote on 11/09/2003 10:15:34
PM:
> Windows XP prof, Sun Jdk 1.4, 512MB ram, Pentium 4
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
> http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rafal Krzewski [mailto:Rafal.Krzewski@caltha.pl]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 4:47 AM
> > To: Maven Users List
> > Subject: Re: Usability issues & general ranting
> >
> >
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> >
> > > I still haven't been able to break through on Tapestry,
> > which needs to
> > > be a multiproject. I'm waiting for the RC binaries (because I've
> > > never been able to build Maven from source) before I try again.
> >
> > What platform are you on? Bootstraping Maven from CVS works
> > flawlessly for me most of the time.
> >
> > R.
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@comcast.net>.
Windows XP prof, Sun Jdk 1.4, 512MB ram, Pentium 4
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafal Krzewski [mailto:Rafal.Krzewski@caltha.pl]
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 4:47 AM
> To: Maven Users List
> Subject: Re: Usability issues & general ranting
>
>
> Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
>
> > I still haven't been able to break through on Tapestry,
> which needs to
> > be a multiproject. I'm waiting for the RC binaries (because I've
> > never been able to build Maven from source) before I try again.
>
> What platform are you on? Bootstraping Maven from CVS works
> flawlessly for me most of the time.
>
> R.
>
>
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Rafal Krzewski <Ra...@caltha.pl>.
Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I still haven't been able to break through on Tapestry, which needs
> to be a multiproject. I'm waiting for the RC binaries (because I've
> never been able to build Maven from source) before I try again.
What platform are you on? Bootstraping Maven from CVS works flawlessly
for me most of the time.
R.
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@comcast.net>.
The frustrations users, including myself, are feeling stems from Maven's complexity. When things
work, we love it! It's pretty. It does tons. It gives us a warm, happy feeling and showcases our
work very professionally.
When things go wrong though, they go seriously wrong. Maven adds many, many layers of abstraction
(XML, XSL, Jelly, properties files, POM) so that if things are *exactly* the way Maven wants them,
you get very, very hard to diagnose errors.
My experiences with HiveMind have been great; I started with Maven and kept things Maven-y, and the
result is just what I want.
I still haven't been able to break through on Tapestry, which needs to be a multiproject. I'm
waiting for the RC binaries (because I've never been able to build Maven from source) before I try
again.
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michal Maczka [mailto:mmaczka@raay-cqs.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 11:10 AM
> To: 'Maven Users List'
> Subject: RE: Usability issues & general ranting
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Berin Loritsch
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:20 PM
> > To: users@maven.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Usability issues & general ranting
> >
> > Michal Maczka wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>>The original author does need to learn that open source
> coding is
> > >>>not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product to
> lots and lots
> > >>>of people, but to satisfy the itch of the people involved.
> > >>
> > >>There is some truth here. However, an open-source
> project's success
> > >>is just as much judged by its audience as any other
> project. And a
> > >>top level apache project would have more ambition than this I
> > >>thought.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah are right. "Our vision" should be dropped and we should
> implement
> > > every single stupid feature then is requested and do this even if
> those
> > > features are in mutual contradiction. And the most
> frequent request
> is:
> > > "you guys should be like ant". This is not hard thing to
> do. We will
> > > simply remove files from our CVS repository and import files from
> Ant
> > > repository replacing every occurrence of word "ant" with
> "maven". If
> > > this is what will make people happy we should listen to
> them! Don't
> we?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Michal, this isn't helpful.
> How can I be helpful? No question how to use/port to Maven was asked!
>
> >I understand your point, but there are
> > better ways of stating it. It is important though to learn the
> strengths
> > and weaknesses of what you are being compared to so that you can set
> up
> > and
> > maintain an "appologetics" page. "Appologetics" is the study of
> defending
> > your position.
> >
> > What do you recognize as the strengths of ANT? What are its
> weaknesses?
> > How does Maven leverage the strengths and minimize the weaknesses?
> >
>
>
> Exactly that's the point!
> What one might call "strengths" other might call "weakness".
> And in case of Maven it is often a case as some conscious
> choices are taken as design flaws. For me #1 strengths of
> maven is that it promotes RAD as you
> don't have to write your build system from scratch - you can
> build it from components. But to use maven you have to
> scarify some amount of freedom. And this is #1 weakness for
> some people. I don't think we can do anything about it
> without compromising fundamental goals of the project. One
> have to understand what he looses and what he gets in order
> to answer the question: do I want to use Maven.
> The same applies e.g. to EJB, Hibernate ...and life in general.
> Every stick has two ends.
>
> Often people who start to use Maven after trying "hardly" to
> bent it to previously structured project with some wacky
> build system (with ant you can certainly develop a very nice
> build system!) and they complain about Maven capabilities.
> This does not mean that Maven should be "improved" just to
> allow those people replace Ant or whatever else with maven.
> Such people in such situation should stay away from Maven as
> it will bring to them more frustration then fruits.
>
> EOT from my side!
>
>
> Michal
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Michal Maczka <mm...@raay-cqs.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Berin Loritsch
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:20 PM
> To: users@maven.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Usability issues & general ranting
>
> Michal Maczka wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>>The original author does need to learn that open source
> >>>coding is not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product
> >>>to lots and lots of people, but to satisfy the itch of the
> >>>people involved.
> >>
> >>There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
> >>success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
> >>project. And a top level apache project would have more
> >>ambition than this I thought.
> >
> >
> > Yeah are right. "Our vision" should be dropped and we should
implement
> > every single stupid feature then is requested and do this even if
those
> > features are in mutual contradiction. And the most frequent request
is:
> > "you guys should be like ant". This is not hard thing to do. We will
> > simply remove files from our CVS repository and import files from
Ant
> > repository replacing every occurrence of word "ant" with "maven". If
> > this is what will make people happy we should listen to them! Don't
we?
> >
>
>
> Michal, this isn't helpful.
How can I be helpful? No question how to use/port to Maven was asked!
>I understand your point, but there are
> better ways of stating it. It is important though to learn the
strengths
> and weaknesses of what you are being compared to so that you can set
up
> and
> maintain an "appologetics" page. "Appologetics" is the study of
defending
> your position.
>
> What do you recognize as the strengths of ANT? What are its
weaknesses?
> How does Maven leverage the strengths and minimize the weaknesses?
>
Exactly that's the point!
What one might call "strengths" other might call "weakness".
And in case of Maven it is often a case as some conscious choices are
taken as design flaws. For me #1 strengths of maven is that it promotes
RAD as you
don't have to write your build system from scratch - you can build it
from components. But to use maven you have to scarify some amount of
freedom. And this is #1 weakness for some people. I don't think we can
do anything about it without compromising fundamental goals of the
project.
One have to understand what he looses and what he gets in order to
answer the question: do I want to use Maven.
The same applies e.g. to EJB, Hibernate ...and life in general.
Every stick has two ends.
Often people who start to use Maven after trying "hardly" to bent it to
previously structured project with some wacky build system (with ant you
can certainly develop a very nice build system!) and they complain about
Maven capabilities. This does not mean that Maven should be "improved"
just to allow those people replace Ant or whatever else with maven. Such
people in such situation should stay away from Maven as it will bring to
them more frustration then fruits.
EOT from my side!
Michal
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Michal Maczka wrote:
>
>>
>>>The original author does need to learn that open source
>>>coding is not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product
>>>to lots and lots of people, but to satisfy the itch of the
>>>people involved.
>>
>>There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
>>success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
>>project. And a top level apache project would have more
>>ambition than this I thought.
>
>
> Yeah are right. "Our vision" should be dropped and we should implement
> every single stupid feature then is requested and do this even if those
> features are in mutual contradiction. And the most frequent request is:
> "you guys should be like ant". This is not hard thing to do. We will
> simply remove files from our CVS repository and import files from Ant
> repository replacing every occurrence of word "ant" with "maven". If
> this is what will make people happy we should listen to them! Don't we?
>
Michal, this isn't helpful. I understand your point, but there are
better ways of stating it. It is important though to learn the strengths
and weaknesses of what you are being compared to so that you can set up and
maintain an "appologetics" page. "Appologetics" is the study of defending
your position.
What do you recognize as the strengths of ANT? What are its weaknesses?
How does Maven leverage the strengths and minimize the weaknesses?
That type of thing can be set up and merely maintained. Then when you
receive a request for "you guys should be like ant" you can tell them
to RTFM. It shows you did your homework--and that you recognize the
good and the bad from that de-facto standard build tool.
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Michal Maczka" <mm...@raay-cqs.com> wrote on 10/09/2003 11:55:43 PM:
> > There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
> > success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
> > project. And a top level apache project would have more
> > ambition than this I thought.
>
> Yeah are right. "Our vision" should be dropped and we should implement
> every single stupid feature then is requested and do this even if those
> features are in mutual contradiction. And the most frequent request is:
> "you guys should be like ant". This is not hard thing to do. We will
> simply remove files from our CVS repository and import files from Ant
> repository replacing every occurrence of word "ant" with "maven". If
> this is what will make people happy we should listen to them! Don't we?
Nope, we have way more vision than that. Maven is not about complete
freedom, it's about trying to do things the right way, and making *that*
easier.
Make the right way easy, make the wrong way hard.
But, in all honesty, if we had software without bugs, I'd be stunned.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Michal Maczka <mm...@raay-cqs.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson [mailto:gse@dimonsoftware.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:29 PM
> To: 'Maven Users List'
> Subject: RE: Usability issues & general ranting
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > The original author does need to learn that open source
> > coding is not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product
> > to lots and lots of people, but to satisfy the itch of the
> > people involved.
>
> There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
> success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
> project. And a top level apache project would have more
> ambition than this I thought.
Yeah are right. "Our vision" should be dropped and we should implement
every single stupid feature then is requested and do this even if those
features are in mutual contradiction. And the most frequent request is:
"you guys should be like ant". This is not hard thing to do. We will
simply remove files from our CVS repository and import files from Ant
repository replacing every occurrence of word "ant" with "maven". If
this is what will make people happy we should listen to them! Don't we?
Michal
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RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> The original author does need to learn that open source
> coding is not created out of some desire to 'sell' a product
> to lots and lots of people, but to satisfy the itch of the
> people involved.
There is some truth here. However, an open-source project's
success is just as much judged by its audience as any other
project. And a top level apache project would have more
ambition than this I thought.
But your point is taken. I'll just have to find some
time to get my itch satisfied too ;-)
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> <rant>
>
> Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com> wrote on 10/09/2003
> 08:49:40 PM:
>
> > First I'd like to say that I think it’s an extremely bad decision
> > not to support CVS libraries (that is, the classic lib
> > directory that typically contains the jars you are dependent
> > on). Well, actually it is supported to some degree, but
>
> Sorry, but bollocks. If people want to configure their own lib directory,
> the support is there, using the jar override facility.
I agree with Dion. One of the points of using Maven is for a series of
centralised repositories and not filling CVS full of lib/'s of jars.
> > At that point, unit tests wouldn't run, with a ClassNotFoundException
> > on JUnitTestRunner. If I removed the test clause from the project
> > descriptor, a NullPointerException occurred!?! I then found that
> > it is necessary to set a property to skip the tests (this is bad
> > design
> Nope, this is damn good design. Anyone who has tests that don't work
> should fix their tests instead of omitting them in the first place. Long
> term, omitting your tests is a good way to have broken software.
I'm assuming they ran okay through Ant before though Dion. So it would
seem that the problem is that the tests weren't compatible with junit that
maven uses or expects or something?
> > Then I tried to generate the web site this morning, which gives me
> > a InvocationTargetException when running the maven-changelog-plugin.
> Do you have a valid POM?
I regularly have pain with the changelog plugin. Seems to work with one
version, then not work with another etc. I suspect the example that Guðlaugur
is working on has an old version of the scm configuration or something.
> > Btw, I re-enabled the tests this morning, at which time they ran
> > (why is very mysterious to me), but ended with an
> > EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (that probably warrants a bug report to
> > Sun).
I'm getting a ClassCircularityError in JBoss from an Oracle driver
currently. I'll just go send Sun a report :)
> > It's a test suite that runs fine under Ant and IntelliJ.
> i.e. you've screwed up your Maven configuration....
>
> > I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> > of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> > quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
> Taken with the grain of salt it deserves.
The original author does need to learn that open source coding is not
created out of some desire to 'sell' a product to lots and lots of people,
but to satisfy the itch of the people involved.
If an open source project has one happy user [the creator], then it is
successful. If it has more than one happy user, then it is wildly
successful.
There are some parts it would be nice to understand. Why did the original
JUnit stuff fail [before he probably screwed the POM trying to get it to
work] and why did the changelog die.
Hen
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Re: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
<rant>
Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson <gs...@dimonsoftware.com> wrote on 10/09/2003
08:49:40 PM:
> Hi all
>
> I've been trying to get Maven to work with my project. I've
> spent about a day on that, with very little to show.
>
> First I'd like to say that I think it’s an extremely bad decision
> not to support CVS libraries (that is, the classic lib
> directory that typically contains the jars you are dependent
> on). Well, actually it is supported to some degree, but
> that support is similar to the support a rope gives a hanged
> man, which is not very desirable :-) I think the repository idea
> is excellent, but if you are going to establish a broad user
> base such as ant has, you have to support the way people are
> working now. A no. 1 requirement for Maven should be that it
> runs without hiccups on a standard project with a source directory,
> a test-source directory and a lib directory, preferably without
> any configuration whatsoever.
Sorry, but bollocks. If people want to configure their own lib directory,
the support is there, using the jar override facility.
It's not something we're going to encourage though, as a general way of
building your application it's woefully wasteful on download size and disk
space. Not only that, but it encourages versionless jar files.
If people want to use Ant, they can use Ant.
As for "a standard project with a source directory, a test-source
directory and a lib directory, preferably without
any configuration whatsoever.", if that's 'standard', then lots of people
are way off base.
> To give you some idea of the problems I've been encountering, then
> it was first of all to get the thing to compile my source using
> "maven jar".
> I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated a
> local repository out of my library using a batch file.
And that took how long? How many jar files do you have??
> At that point, unit tests wouldn't run, with a ClassNotFoundException
> on JUnitTestRunner. If I removed the test clause from the project
> descriptor, a NullPointerException occurred!?! I then found that
> it is necessary to set a property to skip the tests (this is bad
> design
Nope, this is damn good design. Anyone who has tests that don't work
should fix their tests instead of omitting them in the first place. Long
term, omitting your tests is a good way to have broken software.
> imho, it should be enough to remove the test clause from the project
> descriptor). At this point, Maven finally gave me a jar.
Unfortunately for you, you don't know if it was any good, as the tests had
been skipped!
> Then I tried to generate the web site this morning, which gives me
> a InvocationTargetException when running the maven-changelog-plugin.
Do you have a valid POM?
> Btw, I re-enabled the tests this morning, at which time they ran
> (why is very mysterious to me), but ended with an
> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (that probably warrants a bug report to
> Sun).
> It's a test suite that runs fine under Ant and IntelliJ.
i.e. you've screwed up your Maven configuration....
> I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
Taken with the grain of salt it deserves.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
RE: Usability issues & general ranting
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
Hi Stefan,
It's sad you had issues. Whether you use it or not is your choice. If
you think there are more disadvantages than advantages, then don't use
it! However, I have yet to find a single case where this is true.
AFAIAC, I have been using it in production for the past 2 years without
any problem (on projects with 70+ developers and with 300+ maven
projects). This is simply to tell you there is hope and that it can
work... :-)
Thanks
-Vincent
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson [mailto:gse@dimonsoftware.com]
> Sent: 10 September 2003 12:50
> To: users@maven.apache.org
> Subject: Usability issues & general ranting
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi all
>
> I've been trying to get Maven to work with my project. I've
> spent about a day on that, with very little to show.
>
> First I'd like to say that I think its an extremely bad decision
> not to support CVS libraries (that is, the classic lib
> directory that typically contains the jars you are dependent
> on). Well, actually it is supported to some degree, but
> that support is similar to the support a rope gives a hanged
> man, which is not very desirable :-) I think the repository idea
> is excellent, but if you are going to establish a broad user
> base such as ant has, you have to support the way people are
> working now. A no. 1 requirement for Maven should be that it
> runs without hiccups on a standard project with a source directory,
> a test-source directory and a lib directory, preferably without
> any configuration whatsoever.
>
> To give you some idea of the problems I've been encountering, then
> it was first of all to get the thing to compile my source using
> "maven jar".
> I eventually gave up on using lib and jar overrides, and generated a
> local repository out of my library using a batch file.
>
> At that point, unit tests wouldn't run, with a ClassNotFoundException
> on JUnitTestRunner. If I removed the test clause from the project
> descriptor, a NullPointerException occurred!?! I then found that
> it is necessary to set a property to skip the tests (this is bad
> design
> imho, it should be enough to remove the test clause from the project
> descriptor). At this point, Maven finally gave me a jar.
>
> Then I tried to generate the web site this morning, which gives me
> a InvocationTargetException when running the maven-changelog-plugin.
>
> Btw, I re-enabled the tests this morning, at which time they ran
> (why is very mysterious to me), but ended with an
> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (that probably warrants a bug report to
> Sun).
> It's a test suite that runs fine under Ant and IntelliJ.
>
> I've basically given up on Maven for the time being. My impression
> of the state of the project is that it should not be in beta, the
> quality is more like that of an alpha-status project.
>
> With regards
>
> Guðlaugur Stefán Egilsson
> Dimon Software
> http://www.dimonsoftware.com
>
>
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