[OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[eric b <er...@free.fr>]

Hi,


Le 20 nov. 11 à 01:30, Kay Schenk a écrit :

> OK, I truly hate to make a comment like this, but...
>
> eric b, any chance you could take your issues with Louis somewhere  
> other
> than this list?



Everything I reported are facts, that you can verify in the  
archives.  I'm simply describing a system who caused a disaster in  
OpenOffice.org. Louis was just one ot "the band".

If what people reported me is true, this "Monarchy" is still alive  
(I've heard of "discussions with old Community Council") , and  
probably, there is one plan behind the wood.

As volunteer, not being paid, and working a lot on the code in my  
spare time, I'd like to concentrate me on something ethical and true,  
to avoid this occur again, and see the MERIT and TRUE CONTRIBUTIONS  
(not only code) being the motor, but not politics, nor mind  
manipulators.


If I have some doubts, or if ever the old crappy system is back, I  
promise to immediately stop to contribute to Apache OpenOffice.org,  
without regret.



> This is, I believe, the second personal rant I've seen like this,  
> and I, for one, don't really feel it's appropriate for the venue.


Well, if you read carefully : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/ 
wiki/Community_Council_Log_20091217

... you'll read that I "alienated developers"  : [15:27:41] louis_to  
and the fact that the lead seems to alienate a lot of develoopers,  
arccording to reports


Please be curious : notice the name of the people present, and think  
what's happening with them today.

My reaction is not a rant, but rather some "please, Apache people,  
open your eyes".



Regards,
Eric


-- 
qɔᴉɹə
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[eric b <er...@free.fr>]

Hi,

Le 21 nov. 11 à 13:56, Shane Curcuru a écrit :
>>
>> I have perfectly understood, but you'll probably have to  
>> distrubute some
>> roles too. This is urgent.
>
> Why do you say that?  What roles besides sufficiently diverse PPMC  
> members and enough committers to work on the code base does the  
> podling need?
>

I meant the areas of work are various, e.g. marketing, communication,  
and some other domains too. Too much of work will need to delegate.

OpenOffice.org has a bad image in the public currently. Just to  
mention the french case, people think OpenOffice.org is still Oracle  
owned and is no longer free. More we wait and more the bad  
information propagates.


> ...
>>
>> In return, ...
> Apologies if my style was misinterpreted;


Accepted.  Let's concentrate us on the graduation you mentioned.



Regards,
Eric Bachard


-- 
qɔᴉɹə
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>]

On 2011-11-21 1:35 AM, eric b wrote:
...
> So why do you protect people like you do with Hagar Delest ?
>
> Refuse other people to know all the people working with them is exactly
> the beginning of such Monarchy : people are not equal in your system.

Because that's ASF policy in terms of accepting iCLAs and allowing 
committers to have access.  It has nothing to do with Hagar.  It's also 
not going to change.  It's also not going to allow or become a monarchy.


> Remember : I only ask that PPMC know the real name of everybody in the
> PPMC, nothing else. How can we trust people if we don't know who they are ?

"Get used to disappointment."

...
>> I also think it's pretty clear from the discussions here by the most
>> active PPMC members (in terms of actual commits, not mailing list
>> traffic) that this PPMC explicitly does not want to re-form any of the
>> structures from the previous OpenOffice.org project.
>
>
> I have perfectly understood, but you'll probably have to distrubute some
> roles too. This is urgent.

Why do you say that?  What roles besides sufficiently diverse PPMC 
members and enough committers to work on the code base does the podling 
need?

...
>
> In return, I got your sarcasms.

Apologies if my style was misinterpreted; I was not trying to be 
sarcastic in my previous reply.  Just trying to point out the very real 
differences between how Apache projects are run and how the previous 
OpenOffice.org project was run.  Differences that will be enforced if 
the project wishes to graduate to become a full Apache project.

- Shane

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[eric b <er...@free.fr>]

Hi,

Le 20 nov. 11 à 17:38, Shane Curcuru a écrit :

> On 2011-11-20 3:19 AM, eric b wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Le 20 nov. 11 à 01:30, Kay Schenk a écrit :
>>
>>> OK, I truly hate to make a comment like this, but...
>>>
>>> eric b, any chance you could take your issues with Louis  
>>> somewhere other
>>> than this list?
>
> Kay has a point, and in a more established Apache project this kind  
> of discussion would *not* be appreciated.

I perfectly understand.


>   However I understand that there's a lot of history in the  
> previous OpenOffice.org project, especially with a lot of strong- 
> willed individuals, so I'll contribute to this thread.


And you will see that Oracle was not the bad boy. And you'll discover  
that a little number of people, always the same, mostly producing  
nothing, had some responsabilties in the disaster too.

The same one are on top of the TDF now, and some are there, inside  
Apache OpenOffice.org.



>
>> Everything I reported are facts, that you can verify in the archives.
>> I'm simply describing a system who caused a disaster in  
>> OpenOffice.org.
>> Louis was just one ot "the band".
>>
>> If what people reported me is true, this "Monarchy" is still alive  
>> (I've
>> heard of "discussions with old Community Council") , and probably,  
>> there
>> is one plan behind the wood.
>
> Do you have specific references to such behavior happening within  
> an Apache project?
>
> If you do not, well, then I can only say with my 9 years of  
> experience being an Apache Member that Monarchies are *not*  
> tolerated at Apache, and if the relevant (P)PMC can't ensure that  
> the community acts in an open and meritocratic way, that either the  
> Incubator PMC or the board will step in to ensure that it does (or,  
> will terminate the podling/project).


So why do you protect people like you do with Hagar Delest ?

Refuse other people to know all the people working with them is  
exactly the beginning of such Monarchy :  people are not equal in  
your system.

Remember : I only ask that PPMC know the real name of everybody in  
the PPMC, nothing else. How can we trust people if we don't know who  
they are ?




>
> I can also say with my AOO Mentor hat that from my perspective, the  
> Community Council of the previous OpenOffice.org project is gone,  
> ceased, no longer exists as an officially recognized organization.   
> A lot of past organizational structures that were related to the  
> Sun or Oracle led project in the past are gone; it's just that  
> Oracle never bothered to officially announce the end of them (as  
> best I can see). It's obvious that a number of people who used to  
> have titles or roles in those organizations are hoping to get them  
> back or otherwise continue to use them, but they have no meaning  
> within the governance of this Apache podling.
>
> I also think it's pretty clear from the discussions here by the  
> most active PPMC members (in terms of actual commits, not mailing  
> list traffic) that this PPMC explicitly does not want to re-form  
> any of the structures from the previous OpenOffice.org project.


I have perfectly understood, but you'll probably have to distrubute  
some roles too. This is urgent.


>
>> As volunteer, not being paid, and working a lot on the code in my  
>> spare time, I'd like to concentrate me on something ethical and  
>> true, to avoid this occur again, and see the MERIT and TRUE  
>> CONTRIBUTIONS (not only code) being the motor, but not politics,  
>> nor mind manipulators.
>>
>> If I have some doubts, or if ever the old crappy system is back, I  
>> promise to immediately stop to contribute to Apache  
>> OpenOffice.org, without regret.
>
> Yes, you've said this before (in terms of leaving the project if  
> you couldn't know Hagar's true identity), which I have to say from  
> my perspective doesn't help your argument any (at least not in the  
> typical Apache Way mindset).


And I can explain easely : I was really unsubscribed a long time,  
ignoring everything about Apache OOo (that's why I ignore a lot of  
things discussed in meantime).

Recently, one reported me issues, and I - generously - proposed to  
fix them in apache OpenOffice.org too. I did that because I simply  
wanted to help, and share my knowledge (I'm not paid for anything I  
do in free software world). My purpose was to help Apache  
OpenOfice.org, because what is happening (e.g. in France) is not  
honest too (Communication war, and bad lobbying).

In return, I got your sarcasms.


Regards,
Eric Bachard

-- 
qɔᴉɹə
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>]

On 2011-11-20 3:19 AM, eric b wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Le 20 nov. 11 à 01:30, Kay Schenk a écrit :
>
>> OK, I truly hate to make a comment like this, but...
>>
>> eric b, any chance you could take your issues with Louis somewhere other
>> than this list?

Kay has a point, and in a more established Apache project this kind of 
discussion would *not* be appreciated.  However I understand that 
there's a lot of history in the previous OpenOffice.org project, 
especially with a lot of strong-willed individuals, so I'll contribute 
to this thread.

> Everything I reported are facts, that you can verify in the archives.
> I'm simply describing a system who caused a disaster in OpenOffice.org.
> Louis was just one ot "the band".
>
> If what people reported me is true, this "Monarchy" is still alive (I've
> heard of "discussions with old Community Council") , and probably, there
> is one plan behind the wood.

Do you have specific references to such behavior happening within an 
Apache project?

If you do not, well, then I can only say with my 9 years of experience 
being an Apache Member that Monarchies are *not* tolerated at Apache, 
and if the relevant (P)PMC can't ensure that the community acts in an 
open and meritocratic way, that either the Incubator PMC or the board 
will step in to ensure that it does (or, will terminate the 
podling/project).

I can also say with my AOO Mentor hat that from my perspective, the 
Community Council of the previous OpenOffice.org project is gone, 
ceased, no longer exists as an officially recognized organization.  A 
lot of past organizational structures that were related to the Sun or 
Oracle led project in the past are gone; it's just that Oracle never 
bothered to officially announce the end of them (as best I can see). 
It's obvious that a number of people who used to have titles or roles in 
those organizations are hoping to get them back or otherwise continue to 
use them, but they have no meaning within the governance of this Apache 
podling.

I also think it's pretty clear from the discussions here by the most 
active PPMC members (in terms of actual commits, not mailing list 
traffic) that this PPMC explicitly does not want to re-form any of the 
structures from the previous OpenOffice.org project.

> As volunteer, not being paid, and working a lot on the code in my spare
> time, I'd like to concentrate me on something ethical and true, to avoid
> this occur again, and see the MERIT and TRUE CONTRIBUTIONS (not only
> code) being the motor, but not politics, nor mind manipulators.
>
>
> If I have some doubts, or if ever the old crappy system is back, I
> promise to immediately stop to contribute to Apache OpenOffice.org,
> without regret.

Yes, you've said this before (in terms of leaving the project if you 
couldn't know Hagar's true identity), which I have to say from my 
perspective doesn't help your argument any (at least not in the typical 
Apache Way mindset).

- Shane
>
>
>
>> This is, I believe, the second personal rant I've seen like this, and
>> I, for one, don't really feel it's appropriate for the venue.
>
>
> Well, if you read carefully :
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council_Log_20091217
>
> ... you'll read that I "alienated developers" : [15:27:41] louis_to and
> the fact that the lead seems to alienate a lot of develoopers,
> arccording to reports
>
>
> Please be curious : notice the name of the people present, and think
> what's happening with them today.
>
> My reaction is not a rant, but rather some "please, Apache people, open
> your eyes".
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>