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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org> on 2005/06/11 19:00:03 UTC
using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
hello ubuntu community,
i just came across
http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4
especially:
>>
The meeting quickly reviewed the requirements at DocTeamWebPortal. Sean
said that Docbook Wiki had been hopeless but that Apache Lenya was 90%
there. He said that the only thing needed was development time to extend
the editors for structured authoring. Noone was able to estimate the
development time needed. Corey said that MarkShuttleworth had not given
any specific limits on the amount of development he was prepared to
commit and that therefore the development should be proposed and
Canonical could take it from there. Mary reminded Corey of her message
re JeffWaugh (if someone mails Jeff a proposal, he can advise how best
to push it into the appropriate Canonical channels). Corey wanted Sean
to follow up with Jeff because Sean has done the research into possible
portals.
<<
i wanted to alert you guys to an ongoing development over at the ASF. we
are in the process of eating our own dogfood, and making steps toward a
documentation system that might fit your bill:
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Doco
more specifically, we are starting small by collaborating between
forrest and lenya to get something up quickly, and eventually converge
on the goals described in the Doco proposal.
i invite you to help shape it (or even lurk ;)
here are some threads to get started:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=111805523300003&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=111814609300001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=111816526000007&r=1&w=2
best,
-gregor
ps: i'm not subscribed to your list
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Jerome Gotangco <jg...@gmail.com>.
Hello Gregor and Sean,
I am glad to have checked my email late this weekend and even elated
to the growing interest our previous meetings and plans have been.
As for the issues regarding the use and integration of Lenya and
Forrest for the improvement of Ubuntu Documentation, I am sure we will
have a workable solution come the scheduled meeting on the 16th of
June. While the use of platform or technology is a touchy issue, the
Ubuntu developer and documentation community has recognized the need
for dialog for such, hence the scheduled meeting.
I am quite intersted in this project for it can help share the future
of Ubuntu documentaion in future releases. Sean, in case you are
interested in pursuing this, would a virtual server at Linode.com
work? I will put this email correspondence on file and take it up with
the community during the meeting.
BTW, I am not subscribed to the apache/lenya lists.
Thanks,
Jerome Gotangco
On 6/12/05, Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za> wrote:
> One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
> need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
> Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
> free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
> ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
> so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
> Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
> this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
>
> I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
> solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
> opportunity.
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Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za>.
On Sunday 12 June 2005 11:14, David Crossley wrote:
> BTW, it is a way off, but ...
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/harmony.html
Thanks David,
That's worth keeping an eye on ;-)
--
Sean Wheller
Technical Author
sean@inwords.co.za
084-854-9408
http://www.inwords.co.za
Registered Linux User #375355
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Sean Wheller wrote:
>
> One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
> need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
> Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
> free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
> ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
> so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
> Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
> this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
BTW, it is a way off, but ...
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/harmony.html
--David
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Jerome Gotangco <jg...@gmail.com>.
Hello Gregor and Sean,
I am glad to have checked my email late this weekend and even elated
to the growing interest our previous meetings and plans have been.
As for the issues regarding the use and integration of Lenya and
Forrest for the improvement of Ubuntu Documentation, I am sure we will
have a workable solution come the scheduled meeting on the 16th of
June. While the use of platform or technology is a touchy issue, the
Ubuntu developer and documentation community has recognized the need
for dialog for such, hence the scheduled meeting.
I am quite intersted in this project for it can help share the future
of Ubuntu documentaion in future releases. Sean, in case you are
interested in pursuing this, would a virtual server at Linode.com
work? I will put this email correspondence on file and take it up with
the community during the meeting.
BTW, I am not subscribed to the apache/lenya lists.
Thanks,
Jerome Gotangco
On 6/12/05, Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za> wrote:
> One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
> need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
> Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
> free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
> ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
> so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
> Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
> this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
>
> I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
> solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
> opportunity.
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za>.
On Sunday 12 June 2005 15:56, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> > Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
> > gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml
> > documents from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME
> > CVS. Let me know if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu
> > related and we have total autonomy over what we will do, so politics
> > aside I think we can move quickly and possible have it up and running in
> > 7 -14 days. It could be a great live test case. I think we are happy to
> > play crash test dummy.
>
> i don't think we'll have time to set up another test system (we are busy
> enough with our own), but please join our discussion if you are interested.
:-) We have the technical expertise to do it, but may need to work together
with you to iron out problems etc. Will let you know more next week.
--
Sean Wheller
Technical Author
sean@inwords.co.za
084-854-9408
http://www.inwords.co.za
Registered Linux User #375355
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za>.
On Sunday 12 June 2005 15:56, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> > Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
> > gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml
> > documents from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME
> > CVS. Let me know if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu
> > related and we have total autonomy over what we will do, so politics
> > aside I think we can move quickly and possible have it up and running in
> > 7 -14 days. It could be a great live test case. I think we are happy to
> > play crash test dummy.
>
> i don't think we'll have time to set up another test system (we are busy
> enough with our own), but please join our discussion if you are interested.
:-) We have the technical expertise to do it, but may need to work together
with you to iron out problems etc. Will let you know more next week.
--
Sean Wheller
Technical Author
sean@inwords.co.za
084-854-9408
http://www.inwords.co.za
Registered Linux User #375355
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Sean Wheller wrote:
thanks for the explanation, sean!
> One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
> need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
> Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
> free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
> ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
> so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
> Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
> this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
no comment
> I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
> solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
> opportunity.
im not chasing, just offering ;) if ubuntu is not interested, then
that's that.
> Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
> gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml documents
> from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME CVS. Let me know
> if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu related and we have
> total autonomy over what we will do, so politics aside I think we can move
> quickly and possible have it up and running in 7 -14 days. It could be a
> great live test case. I think we are happy to play crash test dummy.
i don't think we'll have time to set up another test system (we are busy
enough with our own), but please join our discussion if you are interested.
best,
-gregor
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Sean Wheller wrote:
thanks for the explanation, sean!
> One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
> need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
> Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
> free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
> ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
> so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
> Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
> this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
no comment
> I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
> solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
> opportunity.
im not chasing, just offering ;) if ubuntu is not interested, then
that's that.
> Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
> gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml documents
> from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME CVS. Let me know
> if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu related and we have
> total autonomy over what we will do, so politics aside I think we can move
> quickly and possible have it up and running in 7 -14 days. It could be a
> great live test case. I think we are happy to play crash test dummy.
i don't think we'll have time to set up another test system (we are busy
enough with our own), but please join our discussion if you are interested.
best,
-gregor
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za>.
On Saturday 11 June 2005 19:00, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> i just came across
>
> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4
>
> especially:
>
<snip what="meeting-summary"/>
Hello Gregor, African Greetings. Good to see you venturing beyond the ASF :-)
You may or may not know me from the Forrest Project. I have a number of sites
running under Forrest. My own included, which has a custom skin (URL at end).
>
> i wanted to alert you guys to an ongoing development over at the ASF. we
> are in the process of eating our own dogfood, and making steps toward a
> documentation system that might fit your bill:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Doco
I am aware of this project. I follow forrest-dev and contribute where I can.
The idea of Doco is good and was the base of a concept that I tried to
explain to people at ubuntu. Unfortunately, for numerous reasons, I failed.
The problem is we need Docbook but users can't/don't want to spend time trying
to learn it and work with it. Then there is SVN, as easy as it is to use,
most users have a fear of working with revision control systems. They are
comfortable hacking work in wiki or as HTML or in OOo Writer, but not using a
Structured XML Editor or source/text editor. At Ubuntu most of the people who
want to contribute docs are not very technical people, but they have figured
out how to do something and want to contribute back by writing a how-to, for
example. The Ubuntu-doc team policy has been to make it possible for everyone
and anyone to contribute if the wish.
As you know, the problem with having multiple formats for storage of documents
is that it become near impossible to manage and repurpose information over
time.
So just as Doco describes, we wanted to bring the ease of wiki editing
together with the valid and well-formed nature of XML. In particular to be
able to utilize the batch processing environment already provided by Docbook.
Mainly because Docbook is utilized by all Ubuntu upstreams.
In a test box that I installed for the purpose of developing a solution to
this problem, Lenya did 90% of what we need, BUT:
1. I could not test it in a production environment like ubuntu.com
2. Docbook is a big DTD and Bitflux took long to load over my LAN. I would not
like to try it over the Internet.
This Lenya was fed docbook xml from the docteam svn. So it was essentially
editing the xml src of a working copy. It was a bit hectic trying to get the
checkout files displayed in lenya but finally with lots of coffee and a few
early mornings I got through the docs and made it work. Well, what worked was
the editing, I made the system as easy possible for the test purpose. Working
on Localhost and some computers in my LAN I was able to do edits. Then I
would ssh into the box and svn diff to see it was working. If I could do that
then I was happy because it mean I could merge the diff to the repos if I
wanted.
In my senario I saw lenya as a great big harvester, many authors editing one
working copy of svn that commit users could control and merge back to the
repos. I did for see some workflow problems with this, but seeing doco I
think you may have already nailed them.
One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
opportunity. Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml documents
from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME CVS. Let me know
if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu related and we have
total autonomy over what we will do, so politics aside I think we can move
quickly and possible have it up and running in 7 -14 days. It could be a
great live test case. I think we are happy to play crash test dummy.
Hope this helps,
--
Sean Wheller
Technical Author
sean@inwords.co.za
084-854-9408
http://www.inwords.co.za
Registered Linux User #375355
Re: using lenya / forrest for ubuntu documentation?
Posted by Sean Wheller <se...@inwords.co.za>.
On Saturday 11 June 2005 19:00, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> i just came across
>
> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4
>
> especially:
>
<snip what="meeting-summary"/>
Hello Gregor, African Greetings. Good to see you venturing beyond the ASF :-)
You may or may not know me from the Forrest Project. I have a number of sites
running under Forrest. My own included, which has a custom skin (URL at end).
>
> i wanted to alert you guys to an ongoing development over at the ASF. we
> are in the process of eating our own dogfood, and making steps toward a
> documentation system that might fit your bill:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Doco
I am aware of this project. I follow forrest-dev and contribute where I can.
The idea of Doco is good and was the base of a concept that I tried to
explain to people at ubuntu. Unfortunately, for numerous reasons, I failed.
The problem is we need Docbook but users can't/don't want to spend time trying
to learn it and work with it. Then there is SVN, as easy as it is to use,
most users have a fear of working with revision control systems. They are
comfortable hacking work in wiki or as HTML or in OOo Writer, but not using a
Structured XML Editor or source/text editor. At Ubuntu most of the people who
want to contribute docs are not very technical people, but they have figured
out how to do something and want to contribute back by writing a how-to, for
example. The Ubuntu-doc team policy has been to make it possible for everyone
and anyone to contribute if the wish.
As you know, the problem with having multiple formats for storage of documents
is that it become near impossible to manage and repurpose information over
time.
So just as Doco describes, we wanted to bring the ease of wiki editing
together with the valid and well-formed nature of XML. In particular to be
able to utilize the batch processing environment already provided by Docbook.
Mainly because Docbook is utilized by all Ubuntu upstreams.
In a test box that I installed for the purpose of developing a solution to
this problem, Lenya did 90% of what we need, BUT:
1. I could not test it in a production environment like ubuntu.com
2. Docbook is a big DTD and Bitflux took long to load over my LAN. I would not
like to try it over the Internet.
This Lenya was fed docbook xml from the docteam svn. So it was essentially
editing the xml src of a working copy. It was a bit hectic trying to get the
checkout files displayed in lenya but finally with lots of coffee and a few
early mornings I got through the docs and made it work. Well, what worked was
the editing, I made the system as easy possible for the test purpose. Working
on Localhost and some computers in my LAN I was able to do edits. Then I
would ssh into the box and svn diff to see it was working. If I could do that
then I was happy because it mean I could merge the diff to the repos if I
wanted.
In my senario I saw lenya as a great big harvester, many authors editing one
working copy of svn that commit users could control and merge back to the
repos. I did for see some workflow problems with this, but seeing doco I
think you may have already nailed them.
One problem I must warn of. It's a religious question, of Java, that you will
need to overcome with the ubuntu community, especially people at canonical.
Seems that Java is a 4-letter word in the ubuntu community because it is not
free. It's silly, I know, but that is the reality. I don't think the
ubuntu-doc team cares what technology is used so long as the solution works,
so there is your support base, but higher up you may have resistance.
Sometime, the people up top, bless their cotton socks, tend to forget that
this is a community project. Sorry I speak it how I see it these days.
I think that with Lenya Dev and Forrest Dev we can get a working robust
solution. Should you fail in your attempts with Ubuntu, I have another
opportunity. Some friends in the CO.ZA community are setting a server to run
gnome.org.za. This is new, but would be used to edit docbook xml documents
from the GNOME Documentation project checked out from GNOME CVS. Let me know
if you would like to do this or not. It is not Ubuntu related and we have
total autonomy over what we will do, so politics aside I think we can move
quickly and possible have it up and running in 7 -14 days. It could be a
great live test case. I think we are happy to play crash test dummy.
Hope this helps,
--
Sean Wheller
Technical Author
sean@inwords.co.za
084-854-9408
http://www.inwords.co.za
Registered Linux User #375355