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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> on 2005/12/30 19:20:36 UTC
Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Though that would probably be more of a
> forum-type community rather than a mailinglist-type community.
A subject for a different thread; but after looking at the latest Jyve
stuff at ApacheCon, it seems entirely possible for a forum-type
community and a mailinglist-type community to be the same.
Nabble/GMane show that already, and something like Jyve could help do
that even more.
Hen
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Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/30/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > What would Jyve give us that Nabble doesn't do for us already - and
> > without
> > > us having to lift a finger, to boot?
> >
> > My wish would basically be for something that allows a user to use it
> > transparently as a mailing list or forum (whatever the user wants)
> > where in the first case he gets every forum post/mail and can post via
> > mail and, in the latter case has to actively check what's new and has
> > to use the forum UI to post.
> > If both Nabble and Jyve can to this (don't know either one, could you
> > perhaps supply some links ?), then I'd go for the one with the more
> > features :-) E.g. better search, better forum UI (did I say that I
> > really like Spring's forums :-) ).
>
>
> From an overall ASF perspective, I'd be more likely to go with the one that
> has less overhead. Nabble is already there, doing the forum thing, and
> completely managed outside of the ASF. Nobody at the ASF has to do anything
> but add new mailing lists to it periodically.
I'm ill with flu, thus the lack of reply to the above.
I'm still operating under the view that it'd be better to have an ASF
hosted forum system and not rely on 3rd parties. The downside of the
third parties are that:
a) we've no control
b) we can't hook it to asylum for private lists [if such a direction
were to happen]
c) non-ASF forums get in the way, so it's more confusing if our sites
are linking over to them
d) no chance of us hooking the forum subscription into the ezmlm
-allow list automatically [not sure if we'd be doing this, but one of
the things we could be doing]
> My understanding (which could be completely wrong ;) is that Jyve would need
> to be installed and managed at the ASF to provide the same kind of
> functionality.
Nah, sounds like they can run it on their servers too, but then I
agree with you about nabble vs gmane vs jyve. The difference with jyve
for me is that we can run it on our servers.
> That means it has infrastructure requirements - hardware,
> software and especially people to maintain it. That being the case, I'd want
> to see a compelling case for Jyve over Nabble, and names of people willing
> to do the work.
Myself and Patrick Lightbody [ex-Jyve developer and Webwork/Struts guy]
Hen
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Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/31/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> From an overall ASF perspective, I'd be more likely to go with the one that
> has less overhead. Nabble is already there, doing the forum thing, and
> completely managed outside of the ASF. Nobody at the ASF has to do anything
> but add new mailing lists to it periodically.
>From what I can see of Nabble, it does not really do the Forum thing.
All Apache-forums seem to be read-only, so it basically is a
nicer-looking, enhanced mail archive. IMO it would provide benefit
only if you could actually post there.
Tom
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Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/30/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > What would Jyve give us that Nabble doesn't do for us already - and
> without
> > us having to lift a finger, to boot?
>
> My wish would basically be for something that allows a user to use it
> transparently as a mailing list or forum (whatever the user wants)
> where in the first case he gets every forum post/mail and can post via
> mail and, in the latter case has to actively check what's new and has
> to use the forum UI to post.
> If both Nabble and Jyve can to this (don't know either one, could you
> perhaps supply some links ?), then I'd go for the one with the more
> features :-) E.g. better search, better forum UI (did I say that I
> really like Spring's forums :-) ).
>From an overall ASF perspective, I'd be more likely to go with the one that
has less overhead. Nabble is already there, doing the forum thing, and
completely managed outside of the ASF. Nobody at the ASF has to do anything
but add new mailing lists to it periodically.
My understanding (which could be completely wrong ;) is that Jyve would need
to be installed and managed at the ASF to provide the same kind of
functionality. That means it has infrastructure requirements - hardware,
software and especially people to maintain it. That being the case, I'd want
to see a compelling case for Jyve over Nabble, and names of people willing
to do the work.
--
Martin Cooper
Tom
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> What would Jyve give us that Nabble doesn't do for us already - and without
> us having to lift a finger, to boot?
My wish would basically be for something that allows a user to use it
transparently as a mailing list or forum (whatever the user wants)
where in the first case he gets every forum post/mail and can post via
mail and, in the latter case has to actively check what's new and has
to use the forum UI to post.
If both Nabble and Jyve can to this (don't know either one, could you
perhaps supply some links ?), then I'd go for the one with the more
features :-) E.g. better search, better forum UI (did I say that I
really like Spring's forums :-) ).
Tom
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Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Though that would probably be more of a
> > forum-type community rather than a mailinglist-type community.
>
> A subject for a different thread; but after looking at the latest Jyve
> stuff at ApacheCon, it seems entirely possible for a forum-type
> community and a mailinglist-type community to be the same.
> Nabble/GMane show that already, and something like Jyve could help do
> that even more.
What would Jyve give us that Nabble doesn't do for us already - and without
us having to lift a finger, to boot?
--
Martin Cooper
Hen
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Though that would probably be more of a
> > > forum-type community rather than a mailinglist-type community.
> >
> > A subject for a different thread; but after looking at the latest Jyve
> > stuff at ApacheCon, it seems entirely possible for a forum-type
> > community and a mailinglist-type community to be the same.
> > Nabble/GMane show that already, and something like Jyve could help do
> > that even more.
>
> As a user of other projects, I've always prefered a forum approach
> like Spring has. It is less annoying because I don't have to read tons
> of mails that do not interest me the least. E.g. consider a developer
> that has a question about, say, commons-collections. Currently this
> requires registration at the commons user mailing list which also
> deals with lang, digster, betwixt, ... all things that the developer
> does not actually care about.
> And forums typically have a good search function (e.g. the Spring
> forum does) which makes it easier to find info immediately (though
> gmane and marc.theaimsgroup.com work well).
> So for users, a forum IMHO might be better (at least instead of a user
> mailing list). Of course it would be best if the developers can still
> use the system as a mailing list, i.e. they get every forum entry as a
> normal mail and can reply via a normal mail. And for developer mailing
> lists I think mailing lists are better. If a non-committer subscribes
> to one of those, IMO he takes an interest in the project and does not
> mind getting every mail there.
Yep, couldn't agree more.
I left ApacheCon with a big list of todo's :) One of them is to see if
we can get a Jyve running for Commons at last (it's on every Commons
proposal, we've just never gotten a jyve setup).
We'd tie said Jyve to the commons-user list, as far as I can tell it
would be pretty transparant. We either:
a) have the email come from Thomas Dudziak <jy...@apache.org> or:
b) have the email come from tomdzk@gmail.com and the moderator would
accept and allow that user.
I think the latter would work fine, it's effectively what's happening
now anyway.
Hen
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Re: Forums/Mailing lists Was: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Though that would probably be more of a
> > forum-type community rather than a mailinglist-type community.
>
> A subject for a different thread; but after looking at the latest Jyve
> stuff at ApacheCon, it seems entirely possible for a forum-type
> community and a mailinglist-type community to be the same.
> Nabble/GMane show that already, and something like Jyve could help do
> that even more.
As a user of other projects, I've always prefered a forum approach
like Spring has. It is less annoying because I don't have to read tons
of mails that do not interest me the least. E.g. consider a developer
that has a question about, say, commons-collections. Currently this
requires registration at the commons user mailing list which also
deals with lang, digster, betwixt, ... all things that the developer
does not actually care about.
And forums typically have a good search function (e.g. the Spring
forum does) which makes it easier to find info immediately (though
gmane and marc.theaimsgroup.com work well).
So for users, a forum IMHO might be better (at least instead of a user
mailing list). Of course it would be best if the developers can still
use the system as a mailing list, i.e. they get every forum entry as a
normal mail and can reply via a normal mail. And for developer mailing
lists I think mailing lists are better. If a non-committer subscribes
to one of those, IMO he takes an interest in the project and does not
mind getting every mail there.
Tom
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