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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> on 2011/09/03 04:05:31 UTC
Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Hi Dale,
I'm forwarding your question to the Apache list where OpenOffice
development discussions are now taking place. Hopefully someone here
has an answer to your question, about how to get started making a new
language translation of OpenOffice.
Regards,
-Rob
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>
Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:43 PM
Subject: [users] Re: Languages
To: users@openoffice.org
On 8/29/2011 1:53 PM, Sigrid Carrera wrote:
>
> Hello Erwin,
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:14:10 -0500
> Dale Erwin<da...@casaerwin.org> wrote:
>
>> If this is not the proper forum, perhaps someone could point me to the
>> proper one, but I am trying to find out what is necessary to be done to
>> have a new language available for OOo.
>
> You might have to download a so called "languagepack" for the
> language you want and have to install it alongside your OOo version.
>
> Once you have installed it, go to Tools -> Options -> Language
> settings -> Language and choose there the default language you want.
> You will have to close OOo completely (even the Quickstarter if you
> use it) and restart OOo for the change to take effect.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Sigrid
>
After sending my email, I was afraid it would be construed that way.
I don't mean adding a language to my installation that OOo already
supports. I mean adding a language to those that OOo supports. I'm
specifically thinking of the Neapolitan language (I dislike using the
term dialect, but it is commonly referred to as an Italian dialect).
--
Dale Erwin
Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
BTW:
IMHO there was a similar discussion if and how to integrate the Catalan
language variante spoken in Valencian beside the normal Catalan one.
At the end we have enabled and integrated translation for Valencian -
also because there was a strong support to do all the work - as you can
see here:
http://download.openoffice.org/other.html
Marcus
Am 09/04/2011 12:23 AM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> OK. Before someone starts saying nasty things about Garibaldi, it
> would be good to state some things I hope we all agree on:
>
>
> 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural
> question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here.
>
> 2) OpenOffice.org has a rich history of offering support for many
> languages, many more than commercial office suites do. This is
> something we take pride in. This includes many minority languages,
> and even artificial languages like Esperanto.
>
> 3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new
> language, we should point them to information on how to do this. We
> don't need to volunteer to do the translation, or use the translation,
> or even agree on the status of the language. But we should help
> someone understand how to do this. Remember, this might help lead to
> a future volunteer for the standard Italian translation as well.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Rob
>
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Dale Erwin<da...@casaerwin.org> wrote:
>> On 9/2/2011 10:23 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dale;
>>>
>>> With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so
>>> much admire being italian myself but not only because of that),
>>> Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for
>>> good reasons.
>>>
>>> Compared to standard italian you use the same character set
>>> and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms
>>> that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian.
>>> My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan
>>> terms to the standard italian dictionary.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>>
>>> Pedro,
>>
>> Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due respect.
>>
>> Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot... I said you speak
>> like one. Maybe you are just misinformed.
>>
>> I agree that Neapolitan is a dialect because by definition a dialect is a
>> LANGUAGE which is not the principal language of the country in which it is
>> spoken and it is relegated to a particular region of that country. But it
>> IS a language and is recognized as such by Wikipedia and by the Italian
>> Province of Catania and has a rich literary presence spanning several
>> centuries. For a brief time, from 1442 to 1458, Neapolitan was the official
>> language of the Kingdom of Naples. It was supplanted by the Tuscan of Dante
>> and Boccaccio which by 1500 had become the accepted literary language of
>> Italy and generally referred to as Italian, but there was no official
>> language called Italian until the unification of Italy. Although the
>> official date of the unification is 1849, the Kingdom of Naples did not
>> become part of the Kingdom of Italy until 1861. At that time Naples was
>> possibly the richest city in the world and it was at this point that 80
>> million ducats were removed from the Bank of Naples and moved to the Bank of
>> Italy causing the collapse of the entire southern Italian economy. It also
>> gave rise to a bigotry in northern Italy which empowered them to deride the
>> southern Italians because of their poverty (which they, the northerners, had
>> caused). For this reason, it became unfashionable to speak Neapolitan.
>> They call it the unification of Italy. I call it the rape of Naples.
>>
>> As for having the same character set as Italian, so does French, Spanish,
>> Portughese, Rumanian and English. Are they also dialects? Of course not.
>>
>> And Neapolitan has its own grammar, too. There may be some similarities to
>> Italian grammar, just as there are in French, Spanish, Portughese and any
>> other Romance language. Here are but a few Neapolitan Grammar books:
>>
>> GRAMMATICA DEL DIALETTO NAPOLETANO
>> compilata dal Dottor Raffaele Capozzoli;
>> Luigi Chiurazzi Editore, 1889
>>
>> 'A LENGUA 'E PULECENELLA - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA
>> Carlo Iandolo;
>> Franco di Mauro Editore, 1994
>>
>> IL NAPOLETANO PARLATO E SCRITTO Con Note di grammatica storica
>> Nicola De Blasi - Luigi Imperatore;
>> Libreria Dante& Descartes, 2000
>>
>> FACILE FACILE - Impariama la lingua napoletana - Grammatica
>> Colomba Rosaria Andolfi;
>> Kairos Edizioni - Napoli, 2008
>>
>> MODERN NEAPOLITAN GRAMMAR - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA ODIERNA
>> D. Erwin - M. T. Fedele
>> Lulu Press, 2011
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dale Erwin
>> Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU
>>
>> http://leather.casaerwin.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =======
>> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
>> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.26, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18240)
>> http://www.pctools.com/
>> =======
Re: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
On 04/09/2011 Eike Rathke wrote:
> I don't know though what I should do at the moment
> with new languages/locales being requested, they'd just pile up.
May I ask whether the situation has changed now that commits to the code
happen more regularly?
I can understand that in the current situation it wouldn't be possible
to create a new localization project for volunteers to translate
interface and help in their language, but I don't understand what
prevents from just making a new locale known to OOo so that a new
language, for example, appears under Format - Character - Language.
This would at least allow users to use within OpenOffice.org an
externally developed dictionary for their language.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi Andrea,
On Sunday, 2011-09-04 16:39:35 +0200, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Rob Weir wrote:
> >1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural
> >question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here.
>
> Ultimately what matters to us is whether ISO assigned a code to the
> language or not, so a technical issue; as I wrote earlier, it did in
> ISO 639-2 (Neapolitan = "nap"); and this is all that matters to us.
> I definitely agree people should not debate non-technical issues on
> this list.
Indeed, availability of an ISO 639 alpha code is the only thing that
matters to OOo.
> Then Dale will be stuck at the issue creation phase, since BugZilla
> is being migrated too.
BugZilla is migrated. Changing the creation links in the wiki doesn't
make sense right now because the wiki is being migrated.. best to wait
until things settled down.
> This is why I wrote that it's probably best
> to contact Eike Rathke directly, since these issues used to be
> assigned to him. I've taken the liberty to CC him explicitly, sorry
> Eike if you preferred otherwise.
It's ok, I use a capable mailer that tells me "this mail was also posted
to a mailing list". I don't know though what I should do at the moment
with new languages/locales being requested, they'd just pile up. I could
integrate them to LibreOffice..
> And good luck with bringing a new language to OpenOffice.org!
This will take a few months, I guess.
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural
> question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here.
Ultimately what matters to us is whether ISO assigned a code to the
language or not, so a technical issue; as I wrote earlier, it did in ISO
639-2 (Neapolitan = "nap"); and this is all that matters to us. I
definitely agree people should not debate non-technical issues on this list.
> 3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new
> language, we should point them to information on how to do this.
Sure. I did this in my earlier message, but I've now found the exact
links and I'm posting them here so that Dale can generate the locale
data and take the first step:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/How_to_submit_new_Locale_Data
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Adding_a_new_language_or_locale
(wiki is in the process of being migrated, but these pages are still
available).
I investigated the locale creation and apparently in the Locale
Generator Dale will have to choose "Napoletano-Calabrese" (it's their
hard-coded definition, again for technical reasons).
Then Dale will be stuck at the issue creation phase, since BugZilla is
being migrated too. This is why I wrote that it's probably best to
contact Eike Rathke directly, since these issues used to be assigned to
him. I've taken the liberty to CC him explicitly, sorry Eike if you
preferred otherwise.
And good luck with bringing a new language to OpenOffice.org!
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
OK. Before someone starts saying nasty things about Garibaldi, it
would be good to state some things I hope we all agree on:
1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural
question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here.
2) OpenOffice.org has a rich history of offering support for many
languages, many more than commercial office suites do. This is
something we take pride in. This includes many minority languages,
and even artificial languages like Esperanto.
3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new
language, we should point them to information on how to do this. We
don't need to volunteer to do the translation, or use the translation,
or even agree on the status of the language. But we should help
someone understand how to do this. Remember, this might help lead to
a future volunteer for the standard Italian translation as well.
Thanks!
-Rob
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org> wrote:
> On 9/2/2011 10:23 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dale;
>>
>> With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so
>> much admire being italian myself but not only because of that),
>> Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for
>> good reasons.
>>
>> Compared to standard italian you use the same character set
>> and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms
>> that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian.
>> My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan
>> terms to the standard italian dictionary.
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> Pedro,
>
> Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due respect.
>
> Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot... I said you speak
> like one. Maybe you are just misinformed.
>
> I agree that Neapolitan is a dialect because by definition a dialect is a
> LANGUAGE which is not the principal language of the country in which it is
> spoken and it is relegated to a particular region of that country. But it
> IS a language and is recognized as such by Wikipedia and by the Italian
> Province of Catania and has a rich literary presence spanning several
> centuries. For a brief time, from 1442 to 1458, Neapolitan was the official
> language of the Kingdom of Naples. It was supplanted by the Tuscan of Dante
> and Boccaccio which by 1500 had become the accepted literary language of
> Italy and generally referred to as Italian, but there was no official
> language called Italian until the unification of Italy. Although the
> official date of the unification is 1849, the Kingdom of Naples did not
> become part of the Kingdom of Italy until 1861. At that time Naples was
> possibly the richest city in the world and it was at this point that 80
> million ducats were removed from the Bank of Naples and moved to the Bank of
> Italy causing the collapse of the entire southern Italian economy. It also
> gave rise to a bigotry in northern Italy which empowered them to deride the
> southern Italians because of their poverty (which they, the northerners, had
> caused). For this reason, it became unfashionable to speak Neapolitan.
> They call it the unification of Italy. I call it the rape of Naples.
>
> As for having the same character set as Italian, so does French, Spanish,
> Portughese, Rumanian and English. Are they also dialects? Of course not.
>
> And Neapolitan has its own grammar, too. There may be some similarities to
> Italian grammar, just as there are in French, Spanish, Portughese and any
> other Romance language. Here are but a few Neapolitan Grammar books:
>
> GRAMMATICA DEL DIALETTO NAPOLETANO
> compilata dal Dottor Raffaele Capozzoli;
> Luigi Chiurazzi Editore, 1889
>
> 'A LENGUA 'E PULECENELLA - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA
> Carlo Iandolo;
> Franco di Mauro Editore, 1994
>
> IL NAPOLETANO PARLATO E SCRITTO Con Note di grammatica storica
> Nicola De Blasi - Luigi Imperatore;
> Libreria Dante & Descartes, 2000
>
> FACILE FACILE - Impariama la lingua napoletana - Grammatica
> Colomba Rosaria Andolfi;
> Kairos Edizioni - Napoli, 2008
>
> MODERN NEAPOLITAN GRAMMAR - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA ODIERNA
> D. Erwin - M. T. Fedele
> Lulu Press, 2011
>
>
>
> --
> Dale Erwin
> Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU
>
> http://leather.casaerwin.org
>
>
>
>
> =======
> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.26, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18240)
> http://www.pctools.com/
> =======
>
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by "Pedro F. Giffuni" <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Hi;
--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org> wrote:
...
>
> Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due
> respect.
>
> Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot...
> I said you speak like one. Maybe you are just
> misinformed.
>
I should've thought better before my original posting because
this subject touches deep fibers in people.
I am pretty aware that all italian dialects are proper
languages that predate standard italian. They are very
much alive in basically every city in Italy.
The issue is none of these languages is actually taught
in schools anymore(?) and it's usually the older people
that use them most. I have no objection to any of them
being added to OpenOffice, it's just that many of the
computer related terms (open file, print, etc) are
unlikely to change with respect to the "official"
italian.
Yes, many people argue these languages are a cultural
value and I am OK with them being preserved.
Pedro.
FWIW, .. No I am not from northern Italy.
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
On 9/2/2011 10:23 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> Hi Dale;
>
> With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so
> much admire being italian myself but not only because of that),
> Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for
> good reasons.
>
> Compared to standard italian you use the same character set
> and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms
> that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian.
> My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan
> terms to the standard italian dictionary.
>
> best regards,
>
> Pedro,
Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due respect.
Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot... I said you
speak like one. Maybe you are just misinformed.
I agree that Neapolitan is a dialect because by definition a dialect is
a LANGUAGE which is not the principal language of the country in which
it is spoken and it is relegated to a particular region of that country.
But it IS a language and is recognized as such by Wikipedia and by the
Italian Province of Catania and has a rich literary presence spanning
several centuries. For a brief time, from 1442 to 1458, Neapolitan was
the official language of the Kingdom of Naples. It was supplanted by
the Tuscan of Dante and Boccaccio which by 1500 had become the accepted
literary language of Italy and generally referred to as Italian, but
there was no official language called Italian until the unification of
Italy. Although the official date of the unification is 1849, the
Kingdom of Naples did not become part of the Kingdom of Italy until
1861. At that time Naples was possibly the richest city in the world
and it was at this point that 80 million ducats were removed from the
Bank of Naples and moved to the Bank of Italy causing the collapse of
the entire southern Italian economy. It also gave rise to a bigotry in
northern Italy which empowered them to deride the southern Italians
because of their poverty (which they, the northerners, had caused). For
this reason, it became unfashionable to speak Neapolitan. They call it
the unification of Italy. I call it the rape of Naples.
As for having the same character set as Italian, so does French,
Spanish, Portughese, Rumanian and English. Are they also dialects? Of
course not.
And Neapolitan has its own grammar, too. There may be some similarities
to Italian grammar, just as there are in French, Spanish, Portughese and
any other Romance language. Here are but a few Neapolitan Grammar books:
GRAMMATICA DEL DIALETTO NAPOLETANO
compilata dal Dottor Raffaele Capozzoli;
Luigi Chiurazzi Editore, 1889
'A LENGUA 'E PULECENELLA - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA
Carlo Iandolo;
Franco di Mauro Editore, 1994
IL NAPOLETANO PARLATO E SCRITTO Con Note di grammatica storica
Nicola De Blasi - Luigi Imperatore;
Libreria Dante & Descartes, 2000
FACILE FACILE - Impariama la lingua napoletana - Grammatica
Colomba Rosaria Andolfi;
Kairos Edizioni - Napoli, 2008
MODERN NEAPOLITAN GRAMMAR - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA ODIERNA
D. Erwin - M. T. Fedele
Lulu Press, 2011
--
Dale Erwin
Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
=======
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.26, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18240)
http://www.pctools.com/
=======
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by "Pedro F. Giffuni" <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Hi Andrea and Dale;
Ugh... I'll take back everything I wrote ... sorry.
The classification between languages or dialects in Italy,
is something that I know very well not to get into.
Yes, I've had my doze of Naepolitan, Friulian, Roman,
and Triestin.
cheers,
Pedro.
--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> > Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language,
> for
> > good reasons.
>
> It's in ISO 639-2 so it's a language, and it's distinct
> from Italian. Among the local languages spoken in Italy, we
> already fully support the four variants of Sardinian
> according to ISO 639-3 (Campidanese, Gallurese, Logudorese,
> Sassarese) and Friulian according to ISO 639-2.
>
> The first step would be to add locale data to
> OpenOffice.org so that OpenOffice.org knows that a
> Neapolitan language exists. Once that's in place, you can
> translate the interface and even create dictionaries.
>
> Eike Rathke is on this list and he's probably the most
> knowledgeable person about this topic, so I'll stop here. I
> remember there were issues with mapping 3-letter codes (like
> "nap", ISO 639-2 for Neapolitan) to the conventions used by
> OpenOffice.org, but this could be a problem from the past.
>
> > My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with
> Naepolitan
> > terms to the standard italian dictionary.
>
> This won't work for regional variants of Italian: it will
> break spell checking and/or interoperability. At least in
> this case, where we are speaking of a separate language, the
> only viable solution is to make it known to OpenOffice.org
> by creating locale data for it.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
>
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for
> good reasons.
It's in ISO 639-2 so it's a language, and it's distinct from Italian.
Among the local languages spoken in Italy, we already fully support the
four variants of Sardinian according to ISO 639-3 (Campidanese,
Gallurese, Logudorese, Sassarese) and Friulian according to ISO 639-2.
The first step would be to add locale data to OpenOffice.org so that
OpenOffice.org knows that a Neapolitan language exists. Once that's in
place, you can translate the interface and even create dictionaries.
Eike Rathke is on this list and he's probably the most knowledgeable
person about this topic, so I'll stop here. I remember there were issues
with mapping 3-letter codes (like "nap", ISO 639-2 for Neapolitan) to
the conventions used by OpenOffice.org, but this could be a problem from
the past.
> My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan
> terms to the standard italian dictionary.
This won't work for regional variants of Italian: it will break spell
checking and/or interoperability. At least in this case, where we are
speaking of a separate language, the only viable solution is to make it
known to OpenOffice.org by creating locale data for it.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Posted by "Pedro F. Giffuni" <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Hi Dale;
With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so
much admire being italian myself but not only because of that),
Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for
good reasons.
Compared to standard italian you use the same character set
and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms
that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian.
My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan
terms to the standard italian dictionary.
best regards,
Pedro,
--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Dale,
>
> I'm forwarding your question to the Apache list where
> OpenOffice
> development discussions are now taking place.
> Hopefully someone here
> has an answer to your question, about how to get started
> making a new
> language translation of OpenOffice.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>
> Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:43 PM
> Subject: [users] Re: Languages
> To: users@openoffice.org
>
>
> On 8/29/2011 1:53 PM, Sigrid Carrera wrote:
> >
> > Hello Erwin,
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:14:10 -0500
> > Dale Erwin<da...@casaerwin.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> If this is not the proper forum, perhaps someone
> could point me to the
> >> proper one, but I am trying to find out what is
> necessary to be done to
> >> have a new language available for OOo.
> >
> > You might have to download a so called "languagepack"
> for the
> > language you want and have to install it alongside
> your OOo version.
> >
> > Once you have installed it, go to Tools ->
> Options -> Language
> > settings -> Language and choose there the default
> language you want.
> > You will have to close OOo completely (even the
> Quickstarter if you
> > use it) and restart OOo for the change to take
> effect.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Sigrid
>
> >
>
> After sending my email, I was afraid it would be construed
> that way.
> I don't mean adding a language to my installation that OOo
> already
> supports. I mean adding a language to those that OOo
> supports. I'm
> specifically thinking of the Neapolitan language (I dislike
> using the
> term dialect, but it is commonly referred to as an Italian
> dialect).
>
>
> --
> Dale Erwin
> Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU
>
> http://leather.casaerwin.org
>
>