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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2003/12/05 19:53:14 UTC
RE: Monitoring
Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
> Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
> Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
> embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
> Directory Project).
> If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
> feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would be
very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
support JSR 77/88 directly.
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for management
and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications to
be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container far
more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work being
done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88 container),
so you would not be starting from scratch.
--- Noel
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
>
>
>>Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
>>Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
>>embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
>>Directory Project).
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
>>feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>>
>>
>
>Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would be
>very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
>support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
>Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for management
>and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications to
>be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container far
>more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work being
>done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
>explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88 container),
>so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
Support for 77 is already possible using extensions - although the real
drop-dead-easy solution is preconditioned on further development of
container-side pluggable facilities (for which a lot of the
infrastructure is in place under the 3.2 series). The overall strategy
is to enable "active profiling" of the Merlin system - enabling for
example the full support of 77 based on the configuration of the Merlin
kernel.
Merlin as such is dealing with a finer-grain of component management
that Geronimo - and I think this is both an import distinction and
asset. What I like to see is the ability for Merlin to full represent a
J2EE application - with or without support for the underling composite
component model. This objective, combined with the existing support 77
support at the level of the Merlin kernel and management sub-systems is
IMO the right approach.
The 88 question is more related to the recent work on the Avalon
Repository Facility and the Merlin bar file structure. I think that
there are some interesting possibilities to leverage Geronimo content in
this area - in particular the implementation of a J2EE deployment
manager backed by the repository sub-system.
Any pointers into specific facilities in the existing Geronimo code base
would be appreciated. I'm definitely interested in moving the
repository facility to a solution that is 88 compliant and Merlin as an
adaptive and dynamic 77 application.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
>
>
>>Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
>>Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
>>embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
>>Directory Project).
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
>>feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>>
>>
>
>Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would be
>very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
>support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
>Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for management
>and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications to
>be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container far
>more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work being
>done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
>explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88 container),
>so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
Support for 77 is already possible using extensions - although the real
drop-dead-easy solution is preconditioned on further development of
container-side pluggable facilities (for which a lot of the
infrastructure is in place under the 3.2 series). The overall strategy
is to enable "active profiling" of the Merlin system - enabling for
example the full support of 77 based on the configuration of the Merlin
kernel.
Merlin as such is dealing with a finer-grain of component management
that Geronimo - and I think this is both an import distinction and
asset. What I like to see is the ability for Merlin to full represent a
J2EE application - with or without support for the underling composite
component model. This objective, combined with the existing support 77
support at the level of the Merlin kernel and management sub-systems is
IMO the right approach.
The 88 question is more related to the recent work on the Avalon
Repository Facility and the Merlin bar file structure. I think that
there are some interesting possibilities to leverage Geronimo content in
this area - in particular the implementation of a J2EE deployment
manager backed by the repository sub-system.
Any pointers into specific facilities in the existing Geronimo code base
would be appreciated. I'm definitely interested in moving the
repository facility to a solution that is 88 compliant and Merlin as an
adaptive and dynamic 77 application.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 06 December 2003 02:53, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would
> be very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin)
> to support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
> Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for management
> and deployment.
Excuse me for differing... (as usual :o) )
<quote from="JSR-77">
The JavaTM 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition Management Specification will
provide server vendors and tool vendors with a standard model for managing
the J2EE Platform.
</quote>
<quote from="JSR-77">
This specification provides a complete description of the APIs required by the
J2EE platform to enable development of platform-independent deployment tools.
</quote>
Please note "J2EE".
If this can be solved with "Merlin Extensions", I am all for it, but I am not
particularly keen on making Avalon "another J2EE" platform. I don't feel we
need the weight in the core.
And since "Merlin Extensions" isn't well formulated, these are probably good
use-cases for the creation of the "ME".
Long live KISS...
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
>
>
>>Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
>>Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
>>embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
>>Directory Project).
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
>>feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>>
>>
>
>Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would be
>very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
>support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
>Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for management
>and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications to
>be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container far
>more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work being
>done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
>explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88 container),
>so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
Support for 77 is already possible using extensions - although the real
drop-dead-easy solution is preconditioned on further development of
container-side pluggable facilities (for which a lot of the
infrastructure is in place under the 3.2 series). The overall strategy
is to enable "active profiling" of the Merlin system - enabling for
example the full support of 77 based on the configuration of the Merlin
kernel.
Merlin as such is dealing with a finer-grain of component management
that Geronimo - and I think this is both an import distinction and
asset. What I like to see is the ability for Merlin to full represent a
J2EE application - with or without support for the underling composite
component model. This objective, combined with the existing support 77
support at the level of the Merlin kernel and management sub-systems is
IMO the right approach.
The 88 question is more related to the recent work on the Avalon
Repository Facility and the Merlin bar file structure. I think that
there are some interesting possibilities to leverage Geronimo content in
this area - in particular the implementation of a J2EE deployment
manager backed by the repository sub-system.
Any pointers into specific facilities in the existing Geronimo code base
would be appreciated. I'm definitely interested in moving the
repository facility to a solution that is 88 compliant and Merlin as an
adaptive and dynamic 77 application.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Timothy Bennett wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>
>> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it
>> would be
>> very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g.,
>> Merlin) to
>> support JSR 77/88 directly.
>>
>
> So, help boil this down for me in regards to what this means to
> Merlin. Is it:
>
> (1) JMX support for managing merlin and its blocks/components
> (2) an API for dynamically deploying new blocks/applications into a
> merlin instance.
>
> I'm confused as to what these JSRs mean to merlin...
77 (component management) is basically JMX but three aspects here:
(a) exposure of the merlin kernel as a composite dynamic J2EE application
(b) support in merlin for component extension of (a)
(c) support in merlin for JMX server establishment as a container side
facility
The solution to (a) is partically in place as the kernel can already be
exposed as a managable bean but this needs to be extended to handle
exposure of the appliance and blocks that Merlin establishes. This
requires more internals dealing with block and appliance listeners -
i.e. enabling registration and active deregistration of mbeans.
The (b) solution is basically a case of lifting code from Phoneix and
bringing this in to an extension in the Merlin kernel. But this
requires the seperation of the application from system scenario - which
is comming - already the merlin-impl 3.2 in CVS enables the plugging in
a system components but its not complete. So there are a few hoops to
jump through to complete this properly.
The third item (c) requires block listeners (so you look at this as a
subset of (b)).
88 (deployment) is much more closely related to the recent work on the
repository. We can already do a lot of what 88 calls for - but there
are some aspects that we are missing - in particular - deployment to a
target (we are currently limited to deploying to the local machine).
The 88 subject also touches on the bar file model and the block
depoyment descriptors as these wouldneed to be exposed as a deplyment
manager (and associated application factory).
Stephen.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Timothy Bennett <ex...@comcast.net>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would be
> very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
> support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
So, help boil this down for me in regards to what this means to Merlin.
Is it:
(1) JMX support for managing merlin and its blocks/components
(2) an API for dynamically deploying new blocks/applications into a
merlin instance.
I'm confused as to what these JSRs mean to merlin...
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Alex Karasulu wrote:
>Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
>Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
>become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
>
>Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
>complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
>do you say Steve?
>
What I think is that adaptive profile delivery is the next critical
step. Using an adaptive profile - Merlin will deliver what you want -
77/88/99?/whatever. Bottom line is that there are some structures to
get in place to make that possible. The 3.2 series has a lot of that in
place already - but more work is needed down deep - in particular a
finder based block implementation (not hard to do) - but the current
repo and embedding ugrades need to be released first).
Cheers, Stephen.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
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Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Alex Karasulu wrote:
>Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
>Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
>become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
>
>Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
>complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
>do you say Steve?
>
What I think is that adaptive profile delivery is the next critical
step. Using an adaptive profile - Merlin will deliver what you want -
77/88/99?/whatever. Bottom line is that there are some structures to
get in place to make that possible. The 3.2 series has a lot of that in
place already - but more work is needed down deep - in particular a
finder based block implementation (not hard to do) - but the current
repo and embedding ugrades need to be released first).
Cheers, Stephen.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
Re: Monitoring
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Alex Karasulu wrote:
>Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
>Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
>become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
>
>Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
>complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
>do you say Steve?
>
What I think is that adaptive profile delivery is the next critical
step. Using an adaptive profile - Merlin will deliver what you want -
77/88/99?/whatever. Bottom line is that there are some structures to
get in place to make that possible. The 3.2 series has a lot of that in
place already - but more work is needed down deep - in particular a
finder based block implementation (not hard to do) - but the current
repo and embedding ugrades need to be released first).
Cheers, Stephen.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Monitoring
Posted by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net>.
Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
do you say Steve?
Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:53 PM
> To: dev@avalon.apache.org
> Cc: geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org; James Developers List
> Subject: RE: Monitoring
>
> Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
> > Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
> > Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
> > embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
> > Directory Project).
>
> > If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
> > feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>
> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would
> be
> very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
> support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
> Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for
> management
> and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications
> to
> be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container
> far
> more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work
> being
> done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
> explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88
> container),
> so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@avalon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@avalon.apache.org
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RE: Monitoring
Posted by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net>.
Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
do you say Steve?
Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:53 PM
> To: dev@avalon.apache.org
> Cc: geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org; James Developers List
> Subject: RE: Monitoring
>
> Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
> > Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
> > Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
> > embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
> > Directory Project).
>
> > If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
> > feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>
> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would
> be
> very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
> support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
> Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for
> management
> and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications
> to
> be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container
> far
> more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work
> being
> done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
> explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88
> container),
> so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@avalon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@avalon.apache.org
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RE: Monitoring
Posted by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net>.
Yes this is the next critical step. I think everyone at
Avalon would be in favor of this since it has surprisingly
become the basis for IoC in the J2EE container world.
Yes, I'm all for it as Noel says! Once the repo release is
complete is suspect this is the next priority concern. What
do you say Steve?
Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:53 PM
> To: dev@avalon.apache.org
> Cc: geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org; James Developers List
> Subject: RE: Monitoring
>
> Stephen J. McConnell wrote:
>
> > Right now I'm in the process of pulling together the next release of
> > Merlin. The main *feature* of the new release will be a much cleaning
> > embedding strategy based on a bunch of improvements from Alex (Apache
> > Directory Project).
>
> > If you or other have thoughts on this I'm real interested in getting
> > feedback, suggestions, options, etc.
>
> Alex, myself, and (AIUI) James Strachan are all of the mind that it would
> be
> very useful, indeed important, for the Avalon container (e.g., Merlin) to
> support JSR 77/88 directly.
>
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=77
> http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=88
>
> Like them or not, those are the standard Java specifications for
> management
> and deployment. Enabling components written to use those specifications
> to
> be directly supported by in Avalon container would make such a container
> far
> more attractive, and would allow the Avalon container to leverage work
> being
> done for those JSRs. There is code in the Geronimo CVS that does this (as
> explained by James, the actual Geronimo kernel *is* a JSR 77/88
> container),
> so you would not be starting from scratch.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@avalon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@avalon.apache.org