You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM> on 2007/05/20 23:12:59 UTC
[VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Please review the changes in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept them. Since this is Incubator Policy,
an affirmative vote is needed before changing. The JIRA issue
has .html files to review in addition to the patch.
[ ] +1 Accept the changes
[ ] -1 Don't accept the changes because...
This vote will run until Tuesday May 23.
Thanks,
Craig
Craig Russell
DB PMC, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Martin,
On May 21, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Martin Sebor wrote:
> Out of curiosity, what form does the reporting to the Sponsor
> and Incubator PMC take? If it's in writing and public, where
> can the rest of the podling community see it?
That detail is not documented anywhere.
Craig
>
> Martin
>
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> Would this be ok?
>> Change
>> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
>> guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
>> Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
>> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
>> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>> to
>> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
>> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
>> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its
>> status to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be
>> members of the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward
>> the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned
>> Podling.
>> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>> Craig
>> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>>>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>>>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>>>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>>>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>>>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>>>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>>>>
>>>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>>>
>>> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should
>>> not be
>>> a requirement. -- justin
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Out of curiosity, what form does the reporting to the Sponsor
and Incubator PMC take? If it's in writing and public, where
can the rest of the podling community see it?
Martin
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Would this be ok?
>
> Change
>
> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling, guide
> the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the Sponsor and
> the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the Incubator PMC. A
> Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and
> the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> to
>
> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to
> the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC,
> the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>
> Craig
>
> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>>>
>>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>>>
>>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>>
>> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should not be
>> a requirement. -- justin
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 23 May 2007 07:52, Craig L Russell wrote:
> On May 22, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Ted Husted wrote:
> > OK, just so I understand. We have a Member who's not on the IPMC. He
> > or she agree to Mentor a candidate, but before the proposal is
> > tendered, the Member should first ask to be placed on the IPMC. Being
> > a Member, the chair will ACK and add that person to the IPMC.
> >
> > In other words, the Member has to actually ask to be added to the
> > IPMC, otherwise the Member can't be a Mentor.
> Actually, the process is slightly different for Foundation Members
> vs. non-Members. The process you elaborate above only applies to non-
> Member prospective Mentors.
Uhhh... No. Ted is describing the Member case. Non-Members can't ask to be
added to the IPMC just like that....
Non-Member Mentors has to be on the IPMC a priori of the mentorship. AFAIU,
someone who is not an ASF member and not on the IPMC shall not be suggested
as Mentors, as it will be rejected.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Ted,
On May 22, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Ted Husted wrote:
> On 5/22/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>> > At one point, we had people becoming members of the Incubator
>> PMC by
>> > virtue of being a Mentor or by virtue of a vote of the Incubator
>> PMC.
>> > Did that change? This language implies that the Mentors must be
>> > pre-existing members of the Incubator PMC.
>>
>> This is the current consensus of the IPMC as I understand it.
>
> OK, just so I understand. We have a Member who's not on the IPMC. He
> or she agree to Mentor a candidate, but before the proposal is
> tendered, the Member should first ask to be placed on the IPMC. Being
> a Member, the chair will ACK and add that person to the IPMC.
>
> In other words, the Member has to actually ask to be added to the
> IPMC, otherwise the Member can't be a Mentor.
>
> Is that the consensus as we understand it?
Actually, the process is slightly different for Foundation Members
vs. non-Members. The process you elaborate above only applies to non-
Member prospective Mentors.
Members can become IPMC members simply by asking the IPMC chair who
will then make it so.
Craig
>
>> Can we defer this discussion?
>
> Sure.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 5/22/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> > At one point, we had people becoming members of the Incubator PMC by
> > virtue of being a Mentor or by virtue of a vote of the Incubator PMC.
> > Did that change? This language implies that the Mentors must be
> > pre-existing members of the Incubator PMC.
>
> This is the current consensus of the IPMC as I understand it.
OK, just so I understand. We have a Member who's not on the IPMC. He
or she agree to Mentor a candidate, but before the proposal is
tendered, the Member should first ask to be placed on the IPMC. Being
a Member, the chair will ACK and add that person to the IPMC.
In other words, the Member has to actually ask to be added to the
IPMC, otherwise the Member can't be a Mentor.
Is that the consensus as we understand it?
> Can we defer this discussion?
Sure.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Ted,
On May 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Ted Husted wrote:
> At one point, we had people becoming members of the Incubator PMC by
> virtue of being a Mentor or by virtue of a vote of the Incubator PMC.
> Did that change? This language implies that the Mentors must be
> pre-existing members of the Incubator PMC.
This is the current consensus of the IPMC as I understand it.
>
> Is there a reason why we are saying "chosen by the Sponsor".
This is the language in the original Policy and I didn't change it.
> In
> practice, candidates often troll for Mentors in order to complete the
> proposal, the Sponsor affirms the proposal drafted by the Candidate,
> which includes naming the Mentor or Mentors..
No matter how it arrived at, the proposal to the incubator includes
the Mentors, and by that time they have been chosen by the Sponsor.
>
> The language about reporting to the Sponsor makes it sound like there
> are two types of status reports. Why not just suggest CC'ing any
> status reports to the Sponsor's mailing list.
Can we defer this discussion? I'd certainly agree that the Mentor's
report to the Incubator could be copied to the Sponsor's mailing
list. And this is in the Process document so it can easily be changed
after the current proposal is implemented.
Craig
>
> -Ted.
>
> On 5/21/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>> Would this be ok?
>>
>> Change
>>
>> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
>> guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
>> Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
>> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
>> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>>
>> to
>>
>> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
>> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
>> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
>> to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
>> the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
>> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>>
>> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>
>> > On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> >> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>> >> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>> >> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>> >> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>> >> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>> >> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>> >> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>> >>
>> >> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>> >
>> > Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should
>> not be
>> > a requirement. -- justin
>> >
>> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> HTH, Ted <http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
DB PMC, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
At one point, we had people becoming members of the Incubator PMC by
virtue of being a Mentor or by virtue of a vote of the Incubator PMC.
Did that change? This language implies that the Mentors must be
pre-existing members of the Incubator PMC.
Is there a reason why we are saying "chosen by the Sponsor". In
practice, candidates often troll for Mentors in order to complete the
proposal, the Sponsor affirms the proposal drafted by the Candidate,
which includes naming the Mentor or Mentors..
The language about reporting to the Sponsor makes it sound like there
are two types of status reports. Why not just suggest CC'ing any
status reports to the Sponsor's mailing list.
-Ted.
On 5/21/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Would this be ok?
>
> Change
>
> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
> guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
> Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> to
>
> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
> to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
> the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>
> Craig
>
> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> > On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
> >> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
> >> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
> >> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
> >>
> >> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
> >> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
> >> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
> >> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
> >>
> >> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
> >
> > Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should not be
> > a requirement. -- justin
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
>
--
HTH, Ted <http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I'm pulling this vote in order to update the definition of Mentors
per Jim and Justin's request. I'm hoping that the change is ok with
everyone else.
I'll have another patch ready for a vote shortly.
Craig
On May 22, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> +1
>
> On May 21, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
>> Would this be ok?
>>
>> Change
>>
>> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
>> guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
>> Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
>> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
>> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>>
>> to
>>
>> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
>> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
>> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its
>> status to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be
>> members of the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward
>> the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned
>> Podling.
>>
>> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>>>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>>>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>>>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>>>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>>>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>>>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>>>>
>>>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>>>
>>> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should
>>> not be
>>> a requirement. -- justin
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1
On 5/22/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On May 21, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> > Would this be ok?
> >
> > Change
> >
> > Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
> > guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
> > Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
> > Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
> > PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
> >
> > to
> >
> > A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
> > Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
> > podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
> > to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members
> > of the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the
> > Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
> >
> > If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
> >>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
> >>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
> >>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
> >>>
> >>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
> >>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
> >>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
> >>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
> >>>
> >>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
> >>
> >> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should
> >> not be
> >> a requirement. -- justin
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> > Craig Russell
> > Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> > 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> > P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
+1
On May 21, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> Would this be ok?
>
> Change
>
> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
> guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
> Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
> Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
> PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> to
>
> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
> Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
> podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
> to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members
> of the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the
> Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
>
> If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
>
> Craig
>
> On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>>>
>>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>>>
>>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>>
>> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should
>> not be
>> a requirement. -- justin
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Would this be ok?
Change
Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the
Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the
Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
to
A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
If this works for you, I can post an updated patch and re-vote.
Craig
On May 21, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
>> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
>> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
>> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>>
>> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
>> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
>> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
>> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>>
>> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
>
> Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should not be
> a requirement. -- justin
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 5/21/07, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
> more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
> one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
> to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
>
> Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
> as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
> singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
> or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
>
> I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
Ditto to Jim's comments - multiple mentors are nice, but should not be
a requirement. -- justin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On May 20, 2007, at 5:12 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> Please review the changes in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept them. Since this is Incubator
> Policy, an affirmative vote is needed before changing. The JIRA
> issue has .html files to review in addition to the patch.
>
> [ ] +1 Accept the changes
> [ ] -1 Don't accept the changes because...
>
> This vote will run until Tuesday May 23.
>
There is, afaik, still some people who think that having
more than one Mentor is unwise (the old saw is more than
one mentor means no mentors)... If a podling wishes
to have just 1, we should honor that, I think.
Therefore I would think some sort of statement such
as "The term 'Mentor' is not designed to be either
singular or plural, and can either mean a single Mentor
or a group of Mentors" or some such thing...
I'm not ready to vote on it yet...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 20 May 2007, Craig L. Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Please review the changes in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept them.
+1
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
email is great for offline-ness (was: Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy)
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On May 21, 2007, at 8:26 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Just an FYI - I haven't followed the jira flow terribly well,
> mostly because
> it takes an order of magnitude longer in time to parse a Jira
> incident rather
> than approve a patch posted to the list. If you could at least
> attach the
> patch delta (and let folks review the full html via the Incubator
> incident)
> I'd have cycles to be much more involved.
Same here. I often process a lot of e-mail on the train, where I
don't have enough of an internet connection to be able to look
through jira, and jira notifications are really hard to read,
especially without access to the issue.
cheers,
Leo
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Bill,
On May 20, 2007, at 11:26 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> Please review the changes in
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept
>
> Just an FYI - I haven't followed the jira flow terribly well,
> mostly because
> it takes an order of magnitude longer in time to parse a Jira
> incident rather
> than approve a patch posted to the list. If you could at least
> attach the
> patch delta (and let folks review the full html via the Incubator
> incident)
> I'd have cycles to be much more involved. Anywhos...
I have deliberately avoided posting the patch itself in email
messages, but I'm happy to do so if it helps. The patch for this
issue is posted below.
>
> Of process_description --- In general (and this doesn't owe
> entirely to your
> patch - the language was already present) --- the first section of
> the patched
> document strikes me as casting an overly negative view of the
> Incubator PMC.
I didn't change that part. But it does seem to echo some of your
comments about the hammer.
<wrowe April 12, 2007>
given some of the problems that have been percolating all the way to
general@, there are some problems in mentorships. The hammer is only
applicable to things that are not acceptable ever - backroom (offlist)
decision making, refusing to acknowledge merit (keeping a podling
'closed')
or not complying with the ASL. There is a short list of unacceptable
practices at the ASF - the mentors job is to short circuit those early
before they become habit (or - more difficult - rewire them for projects
with a long prior-history before entry to the incubator.)
When these problems escalate to iPMC there is a problem in the
mentoring,
either mentors not raising the hammer, or podlings refusing to listen to
the advise. Lowering the hammer sometimes has to come from the iPMC,
but
it should already be hanging over their heads, having very clearly
explained what's wrong with the status quo and why at the podling level.
This makes it possible for the iPMC to act, instead of discussing the
possibility of entertaining the thought of taking a potential action.
</wrowe>
Would hammer be a better word to use than stick?
>
> It isn't "us v.s. them" - the entire Incubator PMC exists to help,
> not hinder
> the projects. Sure we have to take adverse action, but only from
> projects
> which aren't following ASF process, or simply 'don't work out'.
> And in that
> case, it's not the mentors, the champion or the IPMC that is at
> issue, it's
> the project itself.
I agree, but I didn't change that part of the text. I think
clarifying this would be a good 'nother patch.
>
> I'm also very confused here - "The Mentors are members
> of the Incubator PMC, and report to both the PMC and the Sponsor
> about your overall health and suitability for eventual inclusion
> within the Apache Community"
>
> AIUI the Mentor answers to the Incubator PMC, and furthers the
> PROJECT,
> not the Sponsor.
There are several references to the Mentor's responsibilities to the
Sponsor. The Sponsor proposes the Mentors in the original proposal,
and the IPMC approves the Mentors. The Sponsor continues to have an
interest in the podling.
>
> I think that is the gist of my objections to Martijin's comment...
>
> Mentors represent the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,
> guide the
> podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the Sponsor
> and the
> Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the Incubator PMC.
> A Mentor has
> responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the
> community of
> the assigned Podling.
>
> That's wrong IMHO. To say the 'Sponsor' is a special class once
> the project
> is incubating is to create two classes, a "Sponsor" and a
> "Contributor" (e.g.
> committer, PPMC member, what have you). I don't believe we want
> the extra
> layer of privilege/esteem/direction/control/what have you.
In some cases, the Sponsor is the destination for the podling, so I
do think that the Sponsor is special. If the intent is that the
Sponsor has no role once the podling is accepted, then several other
parts of the document need to change.
>
> As a mentor, I'm representing the IPMC. I'm equally mentoring and
> helping
> out EACH committer (and prospective committer) on a podling who
> want to learn
> and understand how to operate their project in the Apache ecosystem.
>
> Once a project is incubating, I don't think the Sponsor designation
> makes
> sense anymore if we are creating a meritocracy of *equals*.
Maybe this should be spun off to a separate discussion...
Craig
INCUBATOR-60.patch:
Index: site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml (revision
539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml (working copy)
@@ -147,35 +147,35 @@
accepted by the Incubator as a
<strong>Podling
-</strong>. The Sponsor will assign a
+</strong>. The Sponsor will assign
- <strong>Mentor
-</strong>. The Mentor may, or may not, be your original Champion. If
not, it
+ <strong>Mentors</strong>.
+The Mentors may include your original Champion. If not, it
is expected your Champion will remain involved during the rest of the
Incubation process, providing as much assistance as possible.
</p>
- <p>The Mentor is there to protect you, but be warned - the
Mentor is
-also holding a big stick. The Mentor is automatically made a member
-of the Incubator PMC, and reports to both the PMC and the Sponsor
+ <p>The Mentors are there to protect you, but be warned -
Mentors
+are holding a big stick. The Mentors are members
+of the Incubator PMC, and report to both the PMC and the Sponsor
about your overall health and suitability for eventual inclusion
within the Apache Community (or recommendation to terminate).
-However, the Mentor (with the assistance of the Champion) is also
+However, the Mentors (with the assistance of the Champion) are also
looking after you through the incubation.
</p>
- <p>One of the roles of the Mentor is to keep away the wolves
- and in
+ <p>One of the roles of the Mentors is to keep away the
wolves - and in
the case of incubation the wolf is the Incubator PMC, the policies,
-the process, and inevitable bureaucracy and delays. The Mentor can
+the process, and inevitable bureaucracy and delays. The Mentors can
help you by guiding and protecting you from much of this based on
-his/her experience in the process and familiarity with the policy and
-procedures of incubation. In performing their role, the Mentor is
+their experience in the process and familiarity with the policy and
+procedures of incubation. In performing their role, the Mentors are
representing the Sponsor.
</p>
- <p>Your Sponsor, represented by your Mentor, has specific
+ <p>Your Sponsor, represented by your Mentors, has specific
responsibilities towards you and the Incubator PMC. There are a bunch
-of administrative and technical actions to take care of. Your Mentor
-is responsible for ensuring that these things happen quickly and
-efficiently. Also, your Mentor is going to help you out with the
+of administrative and technical actions to take care of. Your Mentors
+are responsible for ensuring that these things happen quickly and
+efficiently. Also, your Mentors are going to help you out with the
getting in place of the policies and procedures you use for
introducing new comitters, decision making, etc. These aspects will
be watched closely by the Incubator PMC as they provide a good
Index: site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml (revision
539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml (working copy)
@@ -863,12 +863,14 @@
<section id="Mentor">
<title>Mentor
</title>
- <p>A Mentor is a role undertaken by a permanent member of
the Apache
-Software Foundation and is chosen by the Sponsor to actively lead in
-the discharge of their duties (listed above). Upon acceptance by the
-Incubator PMC, the Mentor automatically becomes a member of the
-Incubator PMC. A Mentor has specific responsibilities towards the
-Incubator PMC, the Sponsor and towards the members of the assigned
+ <p>Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
+podling, guide the podling in
+<a href="http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html">the Apache
Way</a>,
+and report its status
+to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
the
+Incubator PMC. A Mentor has
+<a href="Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor">responsibilities</a>
+toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the
assigned
Podling.
</p>
</section>
@@ -876,9 +878,9 @@
<title>Committers
</title>
<p>The candidate shall declare an initial set of
committers. On
-acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentor shall be given
-access to the Podling's cvs repository for the duration of the
-incubation process. This is to allow the Mentor to perform their
+acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentors shall be given
+access to the Podling's repository for the duration of the
+incubation process. This is to allow the Mentors to perform their
incubation duties, and is for administrative purposes only. To be
given full committer privileges, such as the right to add new code to
the repository, the Mentor must earn them as would any other
Index: site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml
(revision 539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml
(working copy)
@@ -205,9 +205,9 @@
other relevant projects within the TLP.
</p>
<p>However, while the Sponsor is expected to be actively
involved, it is
-formally representated by the Mentor. The Mentor is the individual
+formally representated by the Mentors. The Mentors are the individuals
accountable to the Incubator PMC for ensuring the incubation process
-is correctly followed. In cases where the Mentor is not fulfilling
+is correctly followed. In cases where the Mentors are not fulfilling
their responsibilities, the Sponsor (in particular its Chair) will be
expected to remedy the situation.
</p>
@@ -217,7 +217,7 @@
<ul>
<li>to provide initial approval for a Canidate to be
accepted as a Podling
</li>
- <li>to nominate a Mentor for the incubation process
+ <li>to nominate Mentors for the incubation process
</li>
</ul>
</section>
@@ -225,20 +225,21 @@
<section id="Mentor">
<title>Mentor
</title>
- <p>A Mentor is a role undertaken by a permanent member of
the Apache
-Software Foundation and is chosen by the Sponsor to actively lead in
-the discharge of their duties (listed above). Upon acceptance by the
-Incubator PMC, the Mentor automatically becomes a member of the
-Incubator PMC. A Mentor has specific responsibilities towards the
-Incubator PMC, the Sponsor and towards the members of the assigned
+ <p>Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
+podling, guide the podling in
+<a href="http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html">the Apache
Way</a>,
+and report its status
+to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
the
+Incubator PMC. A Mentor has the following responsibilities
+toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the
assigned
Podling.
</p>
- <section id="Responsibilities+towards+Podling+Members">
- <title>Responsibilities towards Podling Members
+ <section id="Responsibilities+toward+Podling+Community">
+ <title>Responsibilities toward Podling Community
</title>
<ul>
<li>to ensure that Incubator PMC decisions and/or issue
are dealt with in
-a timely manner and ensure that decisions or resolutions effecting
+a timely manner and ensure that decisions or resolutions affecting
the Podling are communicated promptly and expeditiously;
</li>
<li>to represent the interests of the Podling on the
Incubator PMC;
@@ -260,8 +261,8 @@
</li>
</ul>
</section>
- <section id="Responsibilities+towards+the+Incubator+PMC">
- <title>Responsibilities towards the Incubator PMC
+ <section id="Responsibilities+toward+the+Incubator+PMC">
+ <title>Responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC
</title>
<ul>
<li>monitoring the Podling through the incubation process;
@@ -281,17 +282,26 @@
</li>
</ul>
</section>
+ <section id="Responsibilities+toward+the+Sponsor">
+ <title>Responsibilities toward the Sponsor</title>
+ <ul>
+ <li>provide status to the Sponsor as to the progress
+of the podling
+</li>
+ </ul>
+ </section>
+ </section>
<section id="Committers">
<title>Committers
</title>
<p>The candidate shall declare an initial set of
committers. On
-acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentor shall be given
-access to the Podling's cvs repository for the duration of the
-incubation process. This is to allow the Mentor to perform their
+acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentors shall be given
+access to the Podling's repository for the duration of the
+incubation process. This is to allow the Mentors to perform their
incubation duties, and is for administrative purposes only. To be
given full committer privileges, such as the right to add new code to
-the repository, the Mentor must earn them as would any other
-potential new committer. In some cases, the Mentor may be part of the
+the repository, the Mentors must earn them as would any other
+potential new committer. In some cases, the Mentors may be part of the
initial set of declared committers, but this is not a requirement of
the Incubation process.
</p>
@@ -303,7 +313,7 @@
<p>However, you need to make sure of a number of things:
</p>
<ul>
- <li>keep your Mentor informed - he/she is reporting to
the PMC and
+ <li>keep your Mentors informed - they are reporting to
the PMC and
generally speaking "no news is bad news". Of course, conducting
business on the project's mailing lists is one important way to do
this.
@@ -330,7 +340,6 @@
the policy and procedures you aim to put in place once accepted.
</p>
</section>
- </section>
</section>
</body>
</document>
>
> Just my 2c - which has nothing to do with the gist of -your- patch :)
>
> Bill
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Please review the changes in
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept
Just an FYI - I haven't followed the jira flow terribly well, mostly because
it takes an order of magnitude longer in time to parse a Jira incident rather
than approve a patch posted to the list. If you could at least attach the
patch delta (and let folks review the full html via the Incubator incident)
I'd have cycles to be much more involved. Anywhos...
Of process_description --- In general (and this doesn't owe entirely to your
patch - the language was already present) --- the first section of the patched
document strikes me as casting an overly negative view of the Incubator PMC.
It isn't "us v.s. them" - the entire Incubator PMC exists to help, not hinder
the projects. Sure we have to take adverse action, but only from projects
which aren't following ASF process, or simply 'don't work out'. And in that
case, it's not the mentors, the champion or the IPMC that is at issue, it's
the project itself.
I'm also very confused here - "The Mentors are members
of the Incubator PMC, and report to both the PMC and the Sponsor
about your overall health and suitability for eventual inclusion
within the Apache Community"
AIUI the Mentor answers to the Incubator PMC, and furthers the PROJECT,
not the Sponsor.
I think that is the gist of my objections to Martijin's comment...
Mentors represent the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling, guide the
podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the Sponsor and the
Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has
responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of
the assigned Podling.
That's wrong IMHO. To say the 'Sponsor' is a special class once the project
is incubating is to create two classes, a "Sponsor" and a "Contributor" (e.g.
committer, PPMC member, what have you). I don't believe we want the extra
layer of privilege/esteem/direction/control/what have you.
As a mentor, I'm representing the IPMC. I'm equally mentoring and helping
out EACH committer (and prospective committer) on a podling who want to learn
and understand how to operate their project in the Apache ecosystem.
Once a project is incubating, I don't think the Sponsor designation makes
sense anymore if we are creating a meritocracy of *equals*.
Just my 2c - which has nothing to do with the gist of -your- patch :)
Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
Hola,
On 5/20/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Please review the changes in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept them. Since this is Incubator Policy,
> an affirmative vote is needed before changing. The JIRA issue
> has .html files to review in addition to the patch.
>
> [ X ] +1 Accept the changes
> [ ] -1 Don't accept the changes because...
Yoav
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 21 May 2007 05:12, Craig L Russell wrote:
> [x] +1 Accept the changes
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
+1 (non binding)
I do see other (nitpick) problems in the document that I'll address in
a separate issue (no need to hold back on this change).
Martijn
On 5/20/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Please review the changes in https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/
> INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept them. Since this is Incubator Policy,
> an affirmative vote is needed before changing. The JIRA issue
> has .html files to review in addition to the patch.
>
> [ ] +1 Accept the changes
> [ ] -1 Don't accept the changes because...
>
> This vote will run until Tuesday May 23.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Russell
> DB PMC, OpenJPA PMC
> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>
>
>
>
--
Learn Wicket at ApacheCon Europe: http://apachecon.com
Join the wicket community at irc.freenode.net: ##wicket
Wicket 1.2.6 contains a very important fix. Download Wicket now!
http://wicketframework.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org