transparency of struts PMC

[er...@usbank.com]

At one point, all votes were conducted on the struts-dev list.  Since 
there have been a couple of announcements listing PMC votes that haven't 
been done on the list, it would appear this is no longer the case.  Can 
someone clarify what the current policy of the PMC is on transparency? Are 
there some types of votes that are deliberately kept off list?  Is there 
now a PMC only list, or are votes occuring in meetings?  If in meetings, 
will there be public minutes or announcements of the meetings?

I'm not complaining or trying to fan any flames.  I'm just observing what 
appears to be an unannounced change in the way struts-dev runs, and am 
curious as to the go forward policy.  The only vote that the current 
bylaws actually say will be done on the struts-dev list is release votes, 
but I remember that being all votes in the past.  My only involvement with 
ASF is through struts, so apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in 
apache-land. 

Thanks,
Ernie

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Re: transparency of struts PMC

[Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 ernest.argetsinger@usbank.com wrote:

> At one point, all votes were conducted on the struts-dev list.  Since
> there have been a couple of announcements listing PMC votes that haven't
> been done on the list, it would appear this is no longer the case.  Can
> someone clarify what the current policy of the PMC is on transparency? Are
> there some types of votes that are deliberately kept off list?  Is there
> now a PMC only list, or are votes occuring in meetings?  If in meetings,
> will there be public minutes or announcements of the meetings?

In the "old" days, before Struts became an Apache top level project, there 
was no Struts PMC, since Struts was part of Jakarta. In those days, if one 
of us wanted to suggest someone as a new Struts committer, we would start 
an off-list thread to sound out the other committers. This is largely to 
"protect" a potential candidate from being voted down in public. If the 
general sense was positive, a formal vote thread would be started on the 
struts-dev list, since the vote must be recorded.

When Struts became an Apache top level project, it also got its own PMC, 
along with a PMC mailing list. Now, when someone wants to propose a new 
candidate, they do so on the PMC list, instead of an off-list thread. This 
is then followed up by the formal vote, again on the PMC list. Assuming 
the vote is successful, the result of the vote is then posted to the 
public dev@ list, as you've no doubt seen.

I want to emphasise that this is the *only* kind of decision that is made 
elsewhere than the public lists, and that the only reason we do this is to 
avoid potential "loss of face" for someone who might be voted down. All 
other decisions are made on the public mailing lists, and there are no 
meetings of any kind.

I hope this addresses your concerns. We do strive to keep as much as is 
possible as open as possible - that's one of the key characteristics of 
The Apache Way.

--
Martin Cooper


> I'm not complaining or trying to fan any flames.  I'm just observing what
> appears to be an unannounced change in the way struts-dev runs, and am
> curious as to the go forward policy.  The only vote that the current
> bylaws actually say will be done on the struts-dev list is release votes,
> but I remember that being all votes in the past.  My only involvement with
> ASF is through struts, so apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in
> apache-land.
>
> Thanks,
> Ernie
>
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Re: transparency of struts PMC

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 8/22/05, Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only PMC members can vote anyways.  On the MyFaces project we vote in
> "private" so that members can feel free to discus the merits of the
> person without any hurt feelings.  The discussion is still carried out
> on a list that is "public" to the ASF board, etc.

Yes, we do the same on iBATIS. The voting policies were discussed on
the incubator list recently, and the consensus was that it's better to
have "people" discussions on pmc@, and then report the voting results
to dev@. (And, for extra credit, log the vote to the STATUS file!)

I strongly agree with this policy, since in my five years here, I've
seen way too many committer votes go sour. The votes can become a
sounding board for unrelated issues, and some poor soul's name is
kicked around in the subject line, while people discuss things that
have little to do with the individual nominee.

It's not possible to have a frank discussion about an individual on a
public list. We take granting committer status very seriously, and,
sometimes nominations do fail. It's one thing to reject a patch, but
it's quite another to reject a person, who, by definition, was just
trying to help. We could "discuss" the votes on pmc@ first, and then
hold the "vote" on dev@, but that seems disingenuous, since the
discussion is the substance of the vote.

So, who do we nominate for committer around here?

First,  most of us observe the six-month rule for nominations. Before
considering someone, we like a person to have been involved with the
project for at least six months, either through patches or posts.
Making sustained, concrete contributions to the project is the usual
trigger for considering someone. But, aside from concrete
contributions, a candidate *must* have a constructive demeanor on the
mailing lists. Being a committer isn't just about applying your own
patches, but working with patches submitted by others. After six
months as a committer, if someone has remained productive and
constructive, we usually consider inviting the individual to join the
PMC.

Since the PMC members are jointly and serverally responsible for the
project, we prefer candidates who can do it all. Create code, document
code, and help people on the mailing lists. Of course, Struts is a big
project, and few people are involved in every aspect. In practice,
committers often come in because they are very interested in one
aspect, but show a willingness to help out elsewhere if needed.

In the past, we've had committers who specialized in the validator, or
tiles, or a taglib, or documentation. In the future, I expect we will
see more committers who focus on one of the new subprojects
(Applications, BSF Scripting, Core, EL, Flow, JSF Integration,
Plugins, Shale, Taglibs, Tiles). But, I doubt that we would restrict
access by subproject. If you're good enough for one of our
subprojects, you're good enough for them all :)

-Ted.

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Re: transparency of struts PMC

[Sean Schofield <se...@gmail.com>]

Only PMC members can vote anyways.  On the MyFaces project we vote in
"private" so that members can feel free to discus the merits of the
person without any hurt feelings.  The discussion is still carried out
on a list that is "public" to the ASF board, etc.

I'm assuming the Struts team has similar reasoning but you'd have to
ask them.  My 2 cents is this is a good approach.

sean

On 8/22/05, ernest.argetsinger@usbank.com <er...@usbank.com> wrote:
> At one point, all votes were conducted on the struts-dev list.  Since
> there have been a couple of announcements listing PMC votes that haven't
> been done on the list, it would appear this is no longer the case.  Can
> someone clarify what the current policy of the PMC is on transparency? Are
> there some types of votes that are deliberately kept off list?  Is there
> now a PMC only list, or are votes occuring in meetings?  If in meetings,
> will there be public minutes or announcements of the meetings?
> 
> I'm not complaining or trying to fan any flames.  I'm just observing what
> appears to be an unannounced change in the way struts-dev runs, and am
> curious as to the go forward policy.  The only vote that the current
> bylaws actually say will be done on the struts-dev list is release votes,
> but I remember that being all votes in the past.  My only involvement with
> ASF is through struts, so apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in
> apache-land.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ernie
> 
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> Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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