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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by "Brian A. Egge" <br...@yahoo.com> on 2007/10/25 23:00:37 UTC
[COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Hi,
What's the status of the JDK 1.5 branch? It seems the developers are split as to if it's a good thing, and if so, if the API should be different or the same. Most advice I see says to use the collections15 project on SourceForge.
What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same package name, and to have the same names. If there are some additional methods, then that would be ok. Basically, I found upgrading the JDK collections has been rather painless. My 1.4 projects work fine in 1.5, and if I want to change my code to use generics I can. Eclipse even will help me out with this. Because Java decided to use type erasure, it's possible to have a library with generics, that works identically to one without.
I ran clirr against the 1.5 branch, comparing it to the 3.3 snapshot in the trunk. It reported 93 differences. I'm happy to spend some time creating patches for this project, if there are other people (read committers) who have the time to review and apply the patches, and also share my vision of a compatible library.
Commons Collections is one of the most popular components within the Commons project, and the main use of generics is within container classes, so I think it would be a real benefit to get this project up to date.
-Brian
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Ben Speakmon <bs...@apache.org>.
Collections has been on my long-term want-to-get-involved-with list too, but
I don't see a feasible technical plan for the desired generics refactoring.
In the past when I've done similar stuff I've found that you can't really do
it incrementally. If someone could throw together a roadmap that explains
how to do it incrementally, I'd definitely be interested. Unless that
happens, I don't have the time right now :)
On 10/26/07, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> Why don't we set up a page for all of Commons to discuss the
> JDK5-ization (it's a word) of each of the components (if need be)? I
> wouldn't mind helping with Collections.
>
> On 10/26/07, Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> > Brian A. Egge wrote:
> > > What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards
> > > compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same
> > > package name, and to have the same names.
> > Not all parts of [collections] can be generified in this manner. For
> > example, MultiMap and IIRC Bag.
> >
> > There is a valid role for both this proposal and a full reworking with a
> > different API. However, it is unclear who is going to volunteer.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Why don't we set up a page for all of Commons to discuss the
JDK5-ization (it's a word) of each of the components (if need be)? I
wouldn't mind helping with Collections.
On 10/26/07, Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Brian A. Egge wrote:
> > What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards
> > compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same
> > package name, and to have the same names.
> Not all parts of [collections] can be generified in this manner. For
> example, MultiMap and IIRC Bag.
>
> There is a valid role for both this proposal and a full reworking with a
> different API. However, it is unclear who is going to volunteer.
>
> Stephen
>
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>
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
Brian A. Egge wrote:
> What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards
> compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same
> package name, and to have the same names.
Not all parts of [collections] can be generified in this manner. For
example, MultiMap and IIRC Bag.
There is a valid role for both this proposal and a full reworking with a
different API. However, it is unclear who is going to volunteer.
Stephen
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 10/28/07, Stephen Kestle <st...@orionhealth.com> wrote:
> NB!!! Don't submit patches for CollectionUtils --- I have it 90%
> complete, and will find time to do the other 10% if people want to see
> it (are people actually using the generics branch? I am, but then I know
> it's as good as my own code :)
Make a JIRA issue for the task, and attach a patch with your current state.
That way makes it more obvious that you're working on it, means your
work isn't lost if you lose the laptop etc, and means your work isn't
lost if you never have time to work on it.
I've been doing it a lot over the last two years, and it's been very
helpful - including two dead hard drives that meant I had very little
at risk.
Hen
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Stephen Kestle <st...@orionhealth.com>.
The plan is for non backwards compatibility, as there are too many
things that don't make sense for generics, and some things that plain
don't work. The Map coercion methods become silly, and TransformedMap
can't conform to the map interface in it's current form (is that the
right one?).
Having said that, I am planning (in my zero time - probably until
christmas :( ), to have a "1.4 upgrade" generics collections that has
minimal changes (where necessary) and will provide a general drop in
replacement. The main release will be a clean generics release without
deprecation, for those wanting to get started afresh. BTW, absolutely
none of the trunk's deprecated API will make it anywhere into the
generics project (it's gone already...). [You're using it to make a
jump, so *you're going to* make the jump].
So, there will be minimal binary changes, but you will likely have to
recompile (some CollectionUtils void methods will now return something
useful).
Some classes will need revamping, and potentially entirely renamed to
ensure that there is no conflict with different prior behaviour - I
haven't really looked at the maps.
NB!!! Don't submit patches for CollectionUtils --- I have it 90%
complete, and will find time to do the other 10% if people want to see
it (are people actually using the generics branch? I am, but then I know
it's as good as my own code :)
I don't think it will be too difficult to strip out deprecated methods
at build time, but will probably take a bit of time to get right.
Yeah, maybe I will try and find some more time... but generally, I work
on it as I need it's [generic] features.
+1 Wiki page, and for someone to summarise the mailing list. I believe
this message contains the major consensus from the previous discussions
(actually, having a minimal 1.4 upgrade-deprecated jar is my idea -
simply because it'll be easier to do a double [remove
deprecation->upgrade] jump than to do it all in one)
Cheers
Stephen
Requests for clarification welcome.
James Carman wrote:
> Maybe we should set up a wiki page to discuss this 1.5 problem for
> collections (and maybe other projects). We should outline why we have
> been reluctant as of yet to "genericize" collections (binary
> compatibility, serialization issues, etc.). That way folks don't have
> to try to search through the archives or try to remember (I'm having a
> hard time remembering the whole conversation) all the details.
>
> On 10/25/07, Brian A. Egge <br...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> What's the status of the JDK 1.5 branch? It seems the developers are split as to if it's a good thing, and if so, if the API should be different or the same. Most advice I see says to use the collections15 project on SourceForge.
>>
>> What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same package name, and to have the same names. If there are some additional methods, then that would be ok. Basically, I found upgrading the JDK collections has been rather painless. My 1.4 projects work fine in 1.5, and if I want to change my code to use generics I can. Eclipse even will help me out with this. Because Java decided to use type erasure, it's possible to have a library with generics, that works identically to one without.
>>
>> I ran clirr against the 1.5 branch, comparing it to the 3.3 snapshot in the trunk. It reported 93 differences. I'm happy to spend some time creating patches for this project, if there are other people (read committers) who have the time to review and apply the patches, and also share my vision of a compatible library.
>>
>> Commons Collections is one of the most popular components within the Commons project, and the main use of generics is within container classes, so I think it would be a real benefit to get this project up to date.
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Stephen Kestle <st...@orionhealth.com>.
> But can't the library be first moved to a point where one can say the
> new releases will run only on 1.5+ JVM, and then
> gradually/slowly/carefully re-work/generify the internals as necessary
> ? So at least this won't constrain any new development effort from
> using all the goodies in 1.5+, and yet let the old code co-exist while
> the move to 1.5+ is in progress.
>
I don't really understand how this is different from what we're doing.
The generics branch is staying close to head (but only releases -
updates for the latest version need to be merged in...), and we are
being very slow (and careful!) in our application of generics to the branch.
Perhaps I'll get in and finish off CollectionUtils after all, and then
someone should get some nightlies up. Don't know about everybody else,
but the CU class is my bread and butter of the package.
But we don't want to "release" until it's done. Perhaps lots of
milestones and stable sub-releases/release candidates for download and
development work, but I want to maintain the apache way of binary
compatibility (except when major breaks like this one). Once fully
released, it's set in stone.
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Hanson Char <ha...@gmail.com>.
> I seem to recall there being a strong view that we didn't want
> Collections to be glossy painted with 1.5, but that whole APIs should
> be rethought as they contained workarounds to the lack of generics.
But can't the library be first moved to a point where one can say the
new releases will run only on 1.5+ JVM, and then
gradually/slowly/carefully re-work/generify the internals as necessary
? So at least this won't constrain any new development effort from
using all the goodies in 1.5+, and yet let the old code co-exist while
the move to 1.5+ is in progress.
Personally, I simply won't program in any pre-1.5 environment.
My 2c.
Hanson Char
On 10/25/07, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Afaiu, the main reluctance is that no one has stepped up and started
> organizing it.
>
> I seem to recall there being a strong view that we didn't want
> Collections to be glossy painted with 1.5, but that whole APIs should
> be rethought as they contained workarounds to the lack of generics.
>
> +1 on pulling together the information into one place.
>
> Hen
>
> On 10/25/07, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> > Maybe we should set up a wiki page to discuss this 1.5 problem for
> > collections (and maybe other projects). We should outline why we have
> > been reluctant as of yet to "genericize" collections (binary
> > compatibility, serialization issues, etc.). That way folks don't have
> > to try to search through the archives or try to remember (I'm having a
> > hard time remembering the whole conversation) all the details.
> >
> > On 10/25/07, Brian A. Egge <br...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > What's the status of the JDK 1.5 branch? It seems the developers are split as to if it's a good thing, and if so, if the API should be different or the same. Most advice I see says to use the collections15 project on SourceForge.
> > >
> > > What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same package name, and to have the same names. If there are some additional methods, then that would be ok. Basically, I found upgrading the JDK collections has been rather painless. My 1.4 projects work fine in 1.5, and if I want to change my code to use generics I can. Eclipse even will help me out with this. Because Java decided to use type erasure, it's possible to have a library with generics, that works identically to one without.
> > >
> > > I ran clirr against the 1.5 branch, comparing it to the 3.3 snapshot in the trunk. It reported 93 differences. I'm happy to spend some time creating patches for this project, if there are other people (read committers) who have the time to review and apply the patches, and also share my vision of a compatible library.
> > >
> > > Commons Collections is one of the most popular components within the Commons project, and the main use of generics is within container classes, so I think it would be a real benefit to get this project up to date.
> > >
> > > -Brian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
Afaiu, the main reluctance is that no one has stepped up and started
organizing it.
I seem to recall there being a strong view that we didn't want
Collections to be glossy painted with 1.5, but that whole APIs should
be rethought as they contained workarounds to the lack of generics.
+1 on pulling together the information into one place.
Hen
On 10/25/07, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> Maybe we should set up a wiki page to discuss this 1.5 problem for
> collections (and maybe other projects). We should outline why we have
> been reluctant as of yet to "genericize" collections (binary
> compatibility, serialization issues, etc.). That way folks don't have
> to try to search through the archives or try to remember (I'm having a
> hard time remembering the whole conversation) all the details.
>
> On 10/25/07, Brian A. Egge <br...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > What's the status of the JDK 1.5 branch? It seems the developers are split as to if it's a good thing, and if so, if the API should be different or the same. Most advice I see says to use the collections15 project on SourceForge.
> >
> > What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same package name, and to have the same names. If there are some additional methods, then that would be ok. Basically, I found upgrading the JDK collections has been rather painless. My 1.4 projects work fine in 1.5, and if I want to change my code to use generics I can. Eclipse even will help me out with this. Because Java decided to use type erasure, it's possible to have a library with generics, that works identically to one without.
> >
> > I ran clirr against the 1.5 branch, comparing it to the 3.3 snapshot in the trunk. It reported 93 differences. I'm happy to spend some time creating patches for this project, if there are other people (read committers) who have the time to review and apply the patches, and also share my vision of a compatible library.
> >
> > Commons Collections is one of the most popular components within the Commons project, and the main use of generics is within container classes, so I think it would be a real benefit to get this project up to date.
> >
> > -Brian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: [COLLECTIONS] status of 1.5 branch
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Maybe we should set up a wiki page to discuss this 1.5 problem for
collections (and maybe other projects). We should outline why we have
been reluctant as of yet to "genericize" collections (binary
compatibility, serialization issues, etc.). That way folks don't have
to try to search through the archives or try to remember (I'm having a
hard time remembering the whole conversation) all the details.
On 10/25/07, Brian A. Egge <br...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What's the status of the JDK 1.5 branch? It seems the developers are split as to if it's a good thing, and if so, if the API should be different or the same. Most advice I see says to use the collections15 project on SourceForge.
>
> What I would like, is a drop in replacement, with binary backwards compatibility with the 1.4 version. I want everything in the same package name, and to have the same names. If there are some additional methods, then that would be ok. Basically, I found upgrading the JDK collections has been rather painless. My 1.4 projects work fine in 1.5, and if I want to change my code to use generics I can. Eclipse even will help me out with this. Because Java decided to use type erasure, it's possible to have a library with generics, that works identically to one without.
>
> I ran clirr against the 1.5 branch, comparing it to the 3.3 snapshot in the trunk. It reported 93 differences. I'm happy to spend some time creating patches for this project, if there are other people (read committers) who have the time to review and apply the patches, and also share my vision of a compatible library.
>
> Commons Collections is one of the most popular components within the Commons project, and the main use of generics is within container classes, so I think it would be a real benefit to get this project up to date.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>
>
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