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Posted to dev@jclouds.apache.org by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM> on 2014/06/16 17:33:53 UTC
[DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address for
committers
The issue of whether or not to require an apache.org email address for committers came up in a pull request a few days ago [1]. A change was made to the Committer’s Guide [2] requiring committers to use their apache.org email address.
This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the jclouds’ committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this change can be considered a requirement.
Everett
[1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-45972870
[2] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email
address for committers
Posted by Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com>.
For commits made be me personally, I agree with Andrew Gaul's comment in [1]:
"I prefer that all committers to use their apache.org email addresses
since they represent the project first and their employers second when
working on jclouds."
To me, the effort and recognition associated with the change are
represented by the "author" information, for which I would use my
personal or company email, as the case may be.
I see the "committer" as the identity responsible for ensuring that
what the author has submitted meets the standards and requirements of
the ASF (as per "What are the responsibilities of a Committer?" of
[1]). This to me implies that I am doing this wearing my ASF hat,
which I like to indicate by signing off using my ASF email address.
Like Everett, I can't find any clear requirement for this in the
"Committers' FAQ" or "Guide for new committers". The FAQ does contain
the following, however:
"I've Just Made My First Commit. Why Isn't A Commit Message Delivered?
The most likely explanation is that the commit message is awaiting
moderation. Messages will be delivered promptly without moderation
once the moderator approves posts from your apache.org address."
That's hardly "clear evidence", but does seem to indicate that commit
emails are anticipated to be "posts from your apache.org address".
I should repeat, however, that I'm fully in agreement that we should
not mandate something that is not required if we have good reason to
believe that it is preventing contributors from becoming committers.
Regards
ap
[1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-46055497
[2] http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html
[3] http://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide.html
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email
address for committers
Posted by Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com>.
> This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the
> jclouds’ committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this
> change can be considered a requirement.
Reverted the change in anticipation of this discussion:
https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=info
ap
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com> wrote:
> I certainly agree with the aim of encouraging people to become committers as much as possible, so if we feel that using an @apache.org address could be a barrier here, we should reconsider that.
>
> Do we have any evidence that this particular requirement has been a barrier to anyone involved with jclouds?
Not to date. This is the kind of thing that would bite us badly in the process of making someone a committer.
We would invite someone on as a committer, they accept, they start going through the whole process of getting the ICLA and/or CCLA signed off by their company's lawyers. It actually gets signed off. They make their first commit using their company email address because that’s their company policy and the way they’ve always done it. We say, oh no, you can’t do that.
Talking to Karen from the Software Freedom Conservancy was very eye opening for me on this and why I feel so strongly about it.
I would much rather address this now rather than it become a problem for someone who wants to become a committer in the future.
> Also, there may have been a misunderstanding on my part: I was under the impression that anyone with commit rights to the jclouds repos would need to have an ASF ID simply to be able to commit, i.e. that committers would *have* an @apache.org address by definition, and that the question is mainly about whether to *use* it or not.
This is my understanding as well. And that it’s up to the committer’s discretion whether to use it or not.
Everett
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com> wrote:
> I certainly agree with the aim of encouraging people to become committers as much as possible, so if we feel that using an @apache.org address could be a barrier here, we should reconsider that.
>
> Do we have any evidence that this particular requirement has been a barrier to anyone involved with jclouds?
Not to date. This is the kind of thing that would bite us badly in the process of making someone a committer.
We would invite someone on as a committer, they accept, they start going through the whole process of getting the ICLA and/or CCLA signed off by their company's lawyers. It actually gets signed off. They make their first commit using their company email address because that’s their company policy and the way they’ve always done it. We say, oh no, you can’t do that.
Talking to Karen from the Software Freedom Conservancy was very eye opening for me on this and why I feel so strongly about it.
I would much rather address this now rather than it become a problem for someone who wants to become a committer in the future.
> Also, there may have been a misunderstanding on my part: I was under the impression that anyone with commit rights to the jclouds repos would need to have an ASF ID simply to be able to commit, i.e. that committers would *have* an @apache.org address by definition, and that the question is mainly about whether to *use* it or not.
This is my understanding as well. And that it’s up to the committer’s discretion whether to use it or not.
Everett
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email
address for committers
Posted by Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com>.
> I've read nothing on [1] and [2] that requires a committer to use
> their @apache.org address. We should be putting our time and energy
> into finding ways to lower the barriers to joining our community and
> not raising them.
I certainly agree with the aim of encouraging people to become
committers as much as possible, so if we feel that using an
@apache.org address could be a barrier here, we should reconsider that.
Do we have any evidence that this particular requirement has been a
barrier to anyone involved with jclouds?
Also, there may have been a misunderstanding on my part: I was under
the impression that anyone with commit rights to the jclouds repos
would need to have an ASF ID simply to be able to commit, i.e. that
committers would *have* an @apache.org address by definition, and that
the question is mainly about whether to *use* it or not.
Very interested to see what the mentors and others with more ASF
experience have to say on this topic.
ap
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
I strongly disagree with requiring an apache.org email address for committers. We have enough trouble attracting committers as it is. By making this a policy we're throwing up a barrier to contributors becoming committers.
I was at the Texas Linux Fest this weekend and I asked Karen Sandler, Lawyer and Executive Director of Software Freedom Conservancy (a FOSS foundation), about this. The answer (of course) was "It depends." Among other things, it depends on the company that is employing the committer. That company may have a very strong policy about what email address gets used on commits. Just because a committer may come from a company with such a policy, doesn't mean that we should automatically exclude them.
We need to look into the future and consider the consequences of our actions before making preference a policy.
This is not about Rackspace. Rackspace is very open source centric and very committed to upstream projects. Committers are able to use their discretion for what email addresses they use on commits. My personal preference is to use my Rackspace email address because they pay me to work on open source and I'm proud about that.
This is not about intellectual property (AFAIK). The email address used in no way imparts any IP ownership.
I've read nothing on [1] and [2] that requires a committer to use their @apache.org address. We should be putting our time and energy into finding ways to lower the barriers to joining our community and not raising them.
If requiring an @apache.org email in commits is not mandated by the ASF, it should not be mandated by jclouds. The change to the Committer’s Guide [3] should be reverted.
I would also be interested to hear what our mentors have to say on this subject.
Everett
[1] http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html
[2] http://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide.html
[3] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff&rev1=8&rev2=9
On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Everett Toews <ev...@rackspace.com> wrote:
> The issue of whether or not to require an apache.org email address for committers came up in a pull request a few days ago [1]. A change was made to the Committer’s Guide [2] requiring committers to use their apache.org email address.
>
> This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the jclouds’ committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this change can be considered a requirement.
>
> Everett
>
> [1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-45972870
> [2] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Chris Custine <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
> projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before. Informally, I
> have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address or at
> least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
> "perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
> their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
> forbidding that.
>
> Chris
>
I agree with Chris, I've never seen this as a requirement or even a
discussion point really. That said, in svn it's not an issue, so if it
were, it would be relatively recent.
Regardless; I'm not sure what problem it solves. We all have
employers. I imagine we all work on open source projects both inside
and outside the ASF. We may or may not be sponsored by our employers
to contribute to projects. Obfuscating those facts doesn't change
anything in my mind. I generally prefer to use and reference my
personal email because I have had several past employers, and
hopefully will have several future employers.
--David
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
+1
And my apologies if I made a mountain out of a mole hill here.
Everett
On Jun 24, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com> wrote:
>> I’m okay with this suggestion except for the “See also this discussion” part. I personally don’t think it’s really necessary to include that.
>
> Added the following: "Please read the 'which hat' guide before deciding whether to use your @apache.org, personal or other email address." [1].
>
> Happy to revert and/or amend if we're not OK with that, obviously.
>
> ap
>
> [1] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email
address for committers
Posted by Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com>.
> I’m okay with this suggestion except for the “See also this
> discussion” part. I personally don’t think it’s really necessary to
> include that.
Added the following: "Please read the 'which hat' guide before
deciding whether to use your @apache.org, personal or other email
address." [1].
Happy to revert and/or amend if we're not OK with that, obviously.
ap
[1]
https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff&rev2=11&rev1=10
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
On Jun 18, 2014, at 6:27 AM, Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com> wrote:
> Suggestion: "Ensure your name and email address are there as the committer prior to pushing it to the Apache repositories. Please read the 'which hat' guide before deciding whether to use your @apache.org, personal or other email address. See also this discussion.”
I’m okay with this suggestion except for the “See also this discussion” part. I personally don’t think it’s really necessary to include that.
Everett
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email
address for committers
Posted by Andrew Phillips <ap...@qrmedia.com>.
Would it make sense to add something like the following to the
Committers Guide [1]?
Now: "Ensure your name and email address are there as the committer
prior to pushing it to the Apache repositories."
Suggestion: "Ensure your name and email address are there as the
committer prior to pushing it to the Apache repositories. Please read
the 'which hat' guide before deciding whether to use your @apache.org,
personal or other email address. See also this discussion."
where "this discussion" would be a link precisely to this thread.
That would hopefully at least make it clear what the various options
and opinions are?
ap
[1] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Matt Stephenson <ma...@mattstep.net>.
I use my personal email address for commits unless I'm told to do so
otherwise. I find this to be the best way to ensure that several years
down the road, someone can contact me to discuss some change I made at one
point.
My stance is that software does rot, and if I can be reached to maybe help
someone resuscitate some project back into life, the easier I can make that
possible, the better.
Matt
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Everett Toews <everett.toews@rackspace.com
> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2014, at 3:14 PM, Andrew Gaul <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I agree that we should have few requirements, e.g., we should not
> > *require* contributors to be nice to each other. However, we should
> > *encourage* certain behaviors, e.g., contributors should treat each
> > other with respect.
>
> Honestly, this e.g. has taken me aback. Presumably you’re referring to my
> 2nd email on this thread.
>
> I felt strongly about the issue and stated my opinion as such. Reading
> back on it I can see that the tone is much too harsh. I apologize for that.
>
> Nice is relative but I promise you that I approached this issue the way I
> did out of respect for you, AP, and the jclouds community. This discussion
> didn’t belong in a PR so I moved it here for more visibility by the
> community.
>
> My 2nd email (admittedly an overly harsh rant) could easily have been the
> initial email. Instead, I tried to objectively state the facts to start the
> discussion. I did this out of respect for the community.
>
> > I recommend using the Apache branding when representing the project.
> > Tagging commits and emails emphasizes the project first and other
> > affiliations second. When wearing my Apache hat[1], committers and
> > users should expect me to act in the best interests of the project and
> > not my or an employer's interests. Using apache.org livery reinforces
> > these behaviors and perceptions. That being said, I do not plan to
> > police every social interaction or inspect every commit email address.
> >
> > [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats
>
> Thanks for the link, I hadn’t come across this before. It definitely gives
> me a much better idea of the ASF perspective on the issue.
>
> Yes I act in the best interests of the project. I’m also fortunate to work
> for an employer whose interests are also aligned with those of the project.
> That’s why I feel comfortable using my Rackspace email. But this definitely
> gives me something to think about and consider.
>
> The important part to me is that we don’t exclude some future committer
> because their company policy requires that they use their corporate email
> in commits.
>
> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:08:28PM -0600, Chris Custine wrote:
> >> FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
> >> projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before.
> Informally, I
> >> have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address
> or at
> >> least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
> >> "perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
> >> their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
> >> forbidding that.
>
> I’d say your 8+ years of experience is worth a lot. :)
>
> Thanks for your views on this.
>
> Regards,
> Everett
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Andrew Gaul <ga...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 06:57:17PM +0000, Everett Toews wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2014, at 3:14 PM, Andrew Gaul <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I agree that we should have few requirements, e.g., we should not
> > *require* contributors to be nice to each other. However, we should
> > *encourage* certain behaviors, e.g., contributors should treat each
> > other with respect.
>
> Honestly, this e.g. has taken me aback. Presumably you’re referring to my 2nd email on this thread.
>
> I felt strongly about the issue and stated my opinion as such. Reading back on it I can see that the tone is much too harsh. I apologize for that.
>
> Nice is relative but I promise you that I approached this issue the way I did out of respect for you, AP, and the jclouds community. This discussion didn’t belong in a PR so I moved it here for more visibility by the community.
>
> My 2nd email (admittedly an overly harsh rant) could easily have been the initial email. Instead, I tried to objectively state the facts to start the discussion. I did this out of respect for the community.
Please do not connect these strawman examples to any current or previous
discussions; I did not intend them as such and do not take issue with
the content or presentation of your position. I believe we actually
agree to not require apache.org committer emails, although might
disagree about recommending the use of them.
--
Andrew Gaul
http://gaul.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Everett Toews <ev...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
On Jun 16, 2014, at 3:14 PM, Andrew Gaul <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> I agree that we should have few requirements, e.g., we should not
> *require* contributors to be nice to each other. However, we should
> *encourage* certain behaviors, e.g., contributors should treat each
> other with respect.
Honestly, this e.g. has taken me aback. Presumably you’re referring to my 2nd email on this thread.
I felt strongly about the issue and stated my opinion as such. Reading back on it I can see that the tone is much too harsh. I apologize for that.
Nice is relative but I promise you that I approached this issue the way I did out of respect for you, AP, and the jclouds community. This discussion didn’t belong in a PR so I moved it here for more visibility by the community.
My 2nd email (admittedly an overly harsh rant) could easily have been the initial email. Instead, I tried to objectively state the facts to start the discussion. I did this out of respect for the community.
> I recommend using the Apache branding when representing the project.
> Tagging commits and emails emphasizes the project first and other
> affiliations second. When wearing my Apache hat[1], committers and
> users should expect me to act in the best interests of the project and
> not my or an employer's interests. Using apache.org livery reinforces
> these behaviors and perceptions. That being said, I do not plan to
> police every social interaction or inspect every commit email address.
>
> [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats
Thanks for the link, I hadn’t come across this before. It definitely gives me a much better idea of the ASF perspective on the issue.
Yes I act in the best interests of the project. I’m also fortunate to work for an employer whose interests are also aligned with those of the project. That’s why I feel comfortable using my Rackspace email. But this definitely gives me something to think about and consider.
The important part to me is that we don’t exclude some future committer because their company policy requires that they use their corporate email in commits.
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:08:28PM -0600, Chris Custine wrote:
>> FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
>> projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before. Informally, I
>> have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address or at
>> least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
>> "perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
>> their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
>> forbidding that.
I’d say your 8+ years of experience is worth a lot. :)
Thanks for your views on this.
Regards,
Everett
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Jeremy Daggett <je...@RACKSPACE.COM>.
Ah man, look what I started! ;)
After reading the link about various ³hats², my preference is to use my
Apache identity going forward. I believe that using the @apache.org email
address brings a level of humility to the work we do on the project.
I agree that we should encourage it from the community perspective. As I
have learned from human nature, enforcement typically causes resistance.
Unless our employers have an open source contribution policy, this is
really a personal preference. Each of us will need to determine what is
the most appropriate for them.
Another learning experience with the ASF!
/jd
On 6/16/14, 1:14 PM, "Andrew Gaul" <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>I agree that we should have few requirements, e.g., we should not
>*require* contributors to be nice to each other. However, we should
>*encourage* certain behaviors, e.g., contributors should treat each
>other with respect.
>
>I recommend using the Apache branding when representing the project.
>Tagging commits and emails emphasizes the project first and other
>affiliations second. When wearing my Apache hat[1], committers and
>users should expect me to act in the best interests of the project and
>not my or an employer's interests. Using apache.org livery reinforces
>these behaviors and perceptions. That being said, I do not plan to
>police every social interaction or inspect every commit email address.
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats
>
>On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:08:28PM -0600, Chris Custine wrote:
>> FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
>> projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before.
>>Informally, I
>> have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address or
>>at
>> least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
>> "perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
>> their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
>> forbidding that.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> Chris Custine
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Everett Toews
>><ev...@rackspace.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The issue of whether or not to require an apache.org email address for
>> > committers came up in a pull request a few days ago [1]. A change was
>>made
>> > to the Committer¹s Guide [2] requiring committers to use their
>>apache.org
>> > email address.
>> >
>> > This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the
>>jclouds¹
>> > committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this change can be
>> > considered a requirement.
>> >
>> > Everett
>> >
>> > [1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-45972870
>> > [2] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff
>
>--
>Andrew Gaul
>http://gaul.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Andrew Gaul <ga...@apache.org>.
I agree that we should have few requirements, e.g., we should not
*require* contributors to be nice to each other. However, we should
*encourage* certain behaviors, e.g., contributors should treat each
other with respect.
I recommend using the Apache branding when representing the project.
Tagging commits and emails emphasizes the project first and other
affiliations second. When wearing my Apache hat[1], committers and
users should expect me to act in the best interests of the project and
not my or an employer's interests. Using apache.org livery reinforces
these behaviors and perceptions. That being said, I do not plan to
police every social interaction or inspect every commit email address.
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:08:28PM -0600, Chris Custine wrote:
> FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
> projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before. Informally, I
> have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address or at
> least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
> "perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
> their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
> forbidding that.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Custine
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Everett Toews <ev...@rackspace.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The issue of whether or not to require an apache.org email address for
> > committers came up in a pull request a few days ago [1]. A change was made
> > to the Committer’s Guide [2] requiring committers to use their apache.org
> > email address.
> >
> > This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the jclouds’
> > committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this change can be
> > considered a requirement.
> >
> > Everett
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-45972870
> > [2] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff
--
Andrew Gaul
http://gaul.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] Whether or not to require an apache.org email address
for committers
Posted by Chris Custine <ch...@gmail.com>.
FWIW, In my 8 years as a committer, PMC member, chair, etc on 8+ Apache
projects, I don't recall ever having this discussion before. Informally, I
have always encouraged people to use either their apache.org address or at
least a personal gmail address where possible just to reduce the
"perception" of corporate sponsorship. However, I have seen people use
their corporate email addresses and I am not aware of any rule expressly
forbidding that.
Chris
--
Chris Custine
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Everett Toews <ev...@rackspace.com>
wrote:
> The issue of whether or not to require an apache.org email address for
> committers came up in a pull request a few days ago [1]. A change was made
> to the Committer’s Guide [2] requiring committers to use their apache.org
> email address.
>
> This change was premature as it did not get consensus from the jclouds’
> committers. The issue needs to be discussed before this change can be
> considered a requirement.
>
> Everett
>
> [1] https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/pull/397#issuecomment-45972870
> [2] https://wiki.apache.org/jclouds/Committers%20Guide?action=diff