You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com> on 2001/11/22 04:35:34 UTC
Velocity syntax for JSP
I just saw this Resin thing and the remarks on the Velocity page.
Unfortunately, the syntax alone does very little to remove some of the
major drawbacks of JSP's. Resin implementation can even harm the
perception of Velocity because some people might think that Velocity is
all about the alternative syntax to JSP.
I don't think it's a good idea to associate Velocity with it.
Bojan
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <ma...@hometree.net>.
"Nick Bauman" <ni...@cortexity.com> writes:
>I agree with you Bojan 100%. Of course if Velocity were GPL, Resin would
>never have been able to use "Velocity" on the HTML to describe their
>efforts. If they did, the authors could sue. Shows how the GPL creates
>barriers sometimes.
Huh? What?
You can always advertise "we developed a Linux-like Operating System
with all new features" without being sued by Linus Torvalds. No
problem with the GPL here. The problem would be the integration of
GPL'ed code into a non-GPL'ed project. But you can still develop a
closed source project that looks and feels like a GPL project as long
as you don't use any code from it. GPL is about code distribution, not
about advertising.
> I love how their entire selling point rests on the phrase "pointy
> brackets".
I don't want Velocity to be recognized as "JSP with pointy
brackets". It's much too good for that.
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by Nick Bauman <ni...@cortexity.com>.
> On 11/21/01 11:56 PM, "Nick Bauman" <ni...@cortexity.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you Bojan 100%. Of course if Velocity were GPL, Resin
>> would never have been able to use "Velocity" on the HTML to describe
>> their efforts. If they did, the authors could sue. Shows how the GPL
>> creates barriers sometimes.
>
> Huh? We are in control of the use of the name Velocity to promote any
> product based on it.
>
> *However* I don't think they use Velocity at all.
>
> They are saying they have extensions in JSP that use a Velocity-like
> syntax. (That's my read, anyway...)
>
Ahhh. Now I see.
Well, regarding myself, I have always claimed that it's a "thin line
between clever and stupid.", not to mention that "ours goes to eleven".
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> geirm@optonline.net System and Software Consulting
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
>
--
Nick Bauman
Cortexity Development
http://www.cortexity.com/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 11/21/01 11:56 PM, "Nick Bauman" <ni...@cortexity.com> wrote:
> I agree with you Bojan 100%. Of course if Velocity were GPL, Resin would
> never have been able to use "Velocity" on the HTML to describe their
> efforts. If they did, the authors could sue. Shows how the GPL creates
> barriers sometimes.
Huh? We are in control of the use of the name Velocity to promote any
product based on it.
*However* I don't think they use Velocity at all.
They are saying they have extensions in JSP that use a Velocity-like syntax.
(That's my read, anyway...)
>
> I love how their entire selling point rests on the phrase "pointy brackets".
>
> I think this is an opportunity for all of us, just like Geir said.
>
>> I just saw this Resin thing and the remarks on the Velocity page.
>> Unfortunately, the syntax alone does very little to remove some of the
>> major drawbacks of JSP's. Resin implementation can even harm the
>> perception of Velocity because some people might think that Velocity is
>> all about the alternative syntax to JSP.
>>
>> I don't think it's a good idea to associate Velocity with it.
>>
>> Bojan
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org> For additional
>> commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:
>
> Ok - take a look - I changed the section, greatly expanding it, and tried to
> cover al the concerns discussed here in a positive way. (I also couldn't
> resist the chance to shamelessly huckster the Veltag library...)
>
> We can iterate on this until everyone Is happy, so keep the comments coming
> if you don't like it...
Perfect! Thanks.
Bojan
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
Ok - take a look - I changed the section, greatly expanding it, and tried to
cover al the concerns discussed here in a positive way. (I also couldn't
resist the chance to shamelessly huckster the Veltag library...)
We can iterate on this until everyone Is happy, so keep the comments coming
if you don't like it...
On 11/22/01 6:12 AM, "Bojan Smojver" <bo...@binarix.com> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:
>
>> From their page :
>>
>> "The Apache Velocity project introduces an alternative syntax to the
>> familiar JSP expressions and scriptlets. Resin's extension allows the use of
>> Velocity-style syntax in JSP files. Resin's extension does not implement
>> Velocity's language or its data structures. It's simply an alternative JSP
>> syntax. The Velocity-style syntax was introduces in Resin 2.0.3. "
>>
>> I will ask them to rephrase the first sentence, but the rest are hard to
>> argue with.
>>
>> I will also as that they make a clear statement that this is not Velocity.
>
> Exactly. It seems as if Velocity is the alternative syntax to JSP when
> it is something completely different.
>
> My main worry is with people that are not familiar with Velocity - they
> might take Resin and use Velocity syntax thinking: "I'm doing the right
> thing", which of course is very far from the truth. Resin people should
> mention what Velocity really is before they go ahead and say that
> they've borrowed the syntax for the purposes of simplicity.
>
> One of the problems is also the text on Velocity site, which goes like
> this:
>
> --------------------------------
> Of course, there are plenty of reasons why you still want to use
> Velocity in creating your J2EE web applications, but this is nice to see
> anyway.
> --------------------------------
>
> Which almost suggests: "Yeah, Resin folks have seen the light but we
> still offer more features, so use Velocity". Resin thing doesn't even
> touch the issues that Velocity addressed. They've changed '<%' to be '#'
> or something along those lines. If Resin people actually included
> Velocity JAR in the distro and said: "Here is Velocity and its template
> servlet, forget JSP's, they are evil", then I'd say they really did the
> right thing.
>
> Bojan
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:
> From their page :
>
> "The Apache Velocity project introduces an alternative syntax to the
> familiar JSP expressions and scriptlets. Resin's extension allows the use of
> Velocity-style syntax in JSP files. Resin's extension does not implement
> Velocity's language or its data structures. It's simply an alternative JSP
> syntax. The Velocity-style syntax was introduces in Resin 2.0.3. "
>
> I will ask them to rephrase the first sentence, but the rest are hard to
> argue with.
>
> I will also as that they make a clear statement that this is not Velocity.
Exactly. It seems as if Velocity is the alternative syntax to JSP when
it is something completely different.
My main worry is with people that are not familiar with Velocity - they
might take Resin and use Velocity syntax thinking: "I'm doing the right
thing", which of course is very far from the truth. Resin people should
mention what Velocity really is before they go ahead and say that
they've borrowed the syntax for the purposes of simplicity.
One of the problems is also the text on Velocity site, which goes like
this:
--------------------------------
Of course, there are plenty of reasons why you still want to use
Velocity in creating your J2EE web applications, but this is nice to see
anyway.
--------------------------------
Which almost suggests: "Yeah, Resin folks have seen the light but we
still offer more features, so use Velocity". Resin thing doesn't even
touch the issues that Velocity addressed. They've changed '<%' to be '#'
or something along those lines. If Resin people actually included
Velocity JAR in the distro and said: "Here is Velocity and its template
servlet, forget JSP's, they are evil", then I'd say they really did the
right thing.
Bojan
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 11/21/01 11:56 PM, "Nick Bauman" <ni...@cortexity.com> wrote:
> I agree with you Bojan 100%. Of course if Velocity were GPL, Resin would
> never have been able to use "Velocity" on the HTML to describe their
> efforts. If they did, the authors could sue. Shows how the GPL creates
> barriers sometimes.
>
>From their page :
"The Apache Velocity project introduces an alternative syntax to the
familiar JSP expressions and scriptlets. Resin's extension allows the use of
Velocity-style syntax in JSP files. Resin's extension does not implement
Velocity's language or its data structures. It's simply an alternative JSP
syntax. The Velocity-style syntax was introduces in Resin 2.0.3. "
I will ask them to rephrase the first sentence, but the rest are hard to
argue with.
I will also as that they make a clear statement that this is not Velocity.
> I love how their entire selling point rests on the phrase "pointy brackets".
>
> I think this is an opportunity for all of us, just like Geir said.
>
>> I just saw this Resin thing and the remarks on the Velocity page.
>> Unfortunately, the syntax alone does very little to remove some of the
>> major drawbacks of JSP's. Resin implementation can even harm the
>> perception of Velocity because some people might think that Velocity is
>> all about the alternative syntax to JSP.
>>
>> I don't think it's a good idea to associate Velocity with it.
>>
>> Bojan
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org> For additional
>> commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by Nick Bauman <ni...@cortexity.com>.
I agree with you Bojan 100%. Of course if Velocity were GPL, Resin would
never have been able to use "Velocity" on the HTML to describe their
efforts. If they did, the authors could sue. Shows how the GPL creates
barriers sometimes.
I love how their entire selling point rests on the phrase "pointy brackets".
I think this is an opportunity for all of us, just like Geir said.
> I just saw this Resin thing and the remarks on the Velocity page.
> Unfortunately, the syntax alone does very little to remove some of the
> major drawbacks of JSP's. Resin implementation can even harm the
> perception of Velocity because some people might think that Velocity is
> all about the alternative syntax to JSP.
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to associate Velocity with it.
>
> Bojan
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org> For additional
> commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
--
Nick Bauman
Cortexity Development
Intellectual Process is more important than
Intellectual Property -- you'll see.
http://www.cortexity.com/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <ma...@hometree.net>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@earthlink.net> writes:
>On 11/22/01 11:34 AM, "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <ma...@hometree.net>
>wrote:
>> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> writes:
>>
>>> So being a standard isn't enough - they are encouraging their users to write
>>> pages that *aren't portable* in pursuit of better maintainability.
>>
>> "in pursuit of locking consumer into their proprietary product"
>>
>> Sorry, I don't see this as a good thing. I've seen this much too often
>> outside the open source world.
>And what above leads you to believe that I see it as a good thing?
Nothing. I don't know what you believe; I just wanted to state my opinion. :-)
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@earthlink.net>.
On 11/22/01 11:34 AM, "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <ma...@hometree.net>
wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> writes:
>
>> So being a standard isn't enough - they are encouraging their users to write
>> pages that *aren't portable* in pursuit of better maintainability.
>
> "in pursuit of locking consumer into their proprietary product"
>
> Sorry, I don't see this as a good thing. I've seen this much too often
> outside the open source world.
And what above leads you to believe that I see it as a good thing?
>
> Regards
> Henning
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <ma...@hometree.net>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> writes:
>So being a standard isn't enough - they are encouraging their users to write
>pages that *aren't portable* in pursuit of better maintainability.
"in pursuit of locking consumer into their proprietary product"
Sorry, I don't see this as a good thing. I've seen this much too often
outside the open source world.
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Velocity syntax for JSP
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 11/21/01 10:35 PM, "Bojan Smojver" <bo...@binarix.com> wrote:
> I just saw this Resin thing and the remarks on the Velocity page.
> Unfortunately, the syntax alone does very little to remove some of the
> major drawbacks of JSP's. Resin implementation can even harm the
> perception of Velocity because some people might think that Velocity is
> all about the alternative syntax to JSP.
I understand the downside that everyone is seeing here, and I agree to some
extent.
However, this is something we have to take careful advantage of :
Resin is making a strong statement about JSP - to me, they are saying that
real users find that for ease of maintenance, the Velocity syntax is better.
>From their site :
"The Resin-2.0.3 release allows an alternate JSP expression syntax similar
to the Apache Velocity project that many find more maintainable than the JSP
pointy brackets."
So being a standard isn't enough - they are encouraging their users to write
pages that *aren't portable* in pursuit of better maintainability.
Now, we all know that we can write 100% portable applications for the J2EE
environment using Velocity.
So I will add something to the Velocity site making some of these points
clear (if people agree) and contact the Resin folk to see if we can engage
them in constructive dialog to clarify some of the issue people see here, as
well as see if we can help them move JSP even closer to the Correct
Way®(sm) :)
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to associate Velocity with it.
>
As you put it, I agree. However, associating it with Velocity is another
matter.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>