Introduction of XHTML?

[Ferdinand Soethe <sa...@soethe.net>]

I have two questions re the switch from Forrest document-v20-Format to
xhtml:

- What is a realistic expectation for this to happen in terms of time
  and version? (No guarantees expected of course!)

- Will Forrest still support document-vxx after the switch?
  And if so, will document-vxx-support become a plugin?

Thanks
Ferdinand Soethe

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
> Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> 
>>Ross Gardler wrote:

...

>>Only questions remaining is: Where is the grammar for this XHTML
>>subset defined. I saw only the general xhtml-dtds in
>>...\main\webapp\resources\schema.
> 
> 
> The XHTML "subset" is document-v20 ... it uses a subset
> of XHTML and no forrest-specific ones such as those used
> in document-v13, e.g. <link>
> 
> Ross is suggesting that you use document-v20 now as input
> because the change to XHTML documents is then trivial.

Actually, I was suggesting that the docs be written in XHTML and
converted with the html2document.xsl. It may require a little tweaking
of that stylesheet, although I have been using XHTML for my source files
for quite some time now. Although I am working without a grammar, I
suppose I can do that since I use a text editor and so don't use code
assist etc.

If you really need a grammar then you could start from the document-v20
grammar. As David says it is very close to the complete subset we will
use, but this is not XHTML so will need some tweaking (still has the
document tag instead of html for example).

Alternatively, you could grab schema for the necessary XHTML modules we
will be using. They are identified in
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=107262795814418&w=2

For more discussion about the format we will adopt see
http://issues.cocoondev.org/browse/FOR-184

It really depends on your use case as to which is the best route to go.
Spending a little time now pulling together the XHTML modules we need
will assist with FOR-184 and will prevent you having to retrain your
users in the future. Although it will require some work on
html2document.xsl (although I don't think there will be huge amounts).

Alternatively, you could do as David suggests and work with document-v20
which is pretty close to the XHTML subset we will use. This works now,
with no work on DTD's or stylesheets, but would require you to retrain
your users if they wanted to adopt the new XHTML format in 0.8+.

Only you can decide the best way to go for your use case.

Ross

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> 
> RG> In this case you could consider using the XHTML subset we have defined
> RG> now. We already support it as an input format, it's just that we don't
> RG> use it internally yet. This will save you having to retrain folk in the
> 
> This sounds interesting. So this subset is currently transformed to
> document-vxx before it gets skinned. And it is probably not a
> plug-in (since I found none that looked like it) but a build-in
> feature.

This has been in the core of forrest since the beginning.
We transform every input source into document-v**

This "internal" format is planned to be XHTML in
Forrest version 0.8

> Only questions remaining is: Where is the grammar for this XHTML
> subset defined. I saw only the general xhtml-dtds in
> ...\main\webapp\resources\schema.

The XHTML "subset" is document-v20 ... it uses a subset
of XHTML and no forrest-specific ones such as those used
in document-v13, e.g. <link>

Ross is suggesting that you use document-v20 now as input
because the change to XHTML documents is then trivial.

--David

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Ferdinand Soethe <sa...@soethe.net>]

Ross Gardler wrote:

RG> It is a policy of the Forrest team to try not to break backward 
RG> compatibility.

Yes, I realized that from past messages in this forum.

RG> Occasionally this is not possible. But usually it is.

Exactly the reason I wanted to make sure.

RG> In this case you could consider using the XHTML subset we have defined
RG> now. We already support it as an input format, it's just that we don't
RG> use it internally yet. This will save you having to retrain folk in the

This sounds interesting. So this subset is currently transformed to
document-vxx before it gets skinned. And it is probably not a
plug-in (since I found none that looked like it) but a build-in
feature.

Only questions remaining is: Where is the grammar for this XHTML
subset defined. I saw only the general xhtml-dtds in
...\main\webapp\resources\schema.

Thanks,
Ferdinand Soethe

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> Thanks. Now I can safely train people to use document-v20 and wait
> for xhtml to come along and turn into a stable implementation.

It is a policy of the Forrest team to try not to break backward 
compatibility. Occasionally this is not possible. But usually it is.

In other words, you can safely train folk up to use Forrest today, safe 
in the knowledge that we will at worst provide a migration path in the 
future.

In this case you could consider using the XHTML subset we have defined 
now. We already support it as an input format, it's just that we don't 
use it internally yet. This will save you having to retrain folk in the 
future.

Ross

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Ferdinand Soethe <sa...@soethe.net>]

Thanks. Now I can safely train people to use document-v20 and wait
for xhtml to come along and turn into a stable implementation.

Ferdinand Soethe

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 17:59 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
> It is part of the switch to the new skinning system that Thorsten has 
> recently prototyped. Both he and I need this for our work so "soon".
> 

Actually I am developing that not for work but just for the challenge
that it is working like I predicted. ;-)

salu2
-- 
thorsten

"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> I have two questions re the switch from Forrest document-v20-Format to
> xhtml:
> 
> - What is a realistic expectation for this to happen in terms of time
>   and version? (No guarantees expected of course!)

It is part of the switch to the new skinning system that Thorsten has 
recently prototyped. Both he and I need this for our work so "soon".

Of course "soon" is a relative term. All I can say is that it *will* be 
in the next release.

> - Will Forrest still support document-vxx after the switch?

Yes.

>   And if so, will document-vxx-support become a plugin?

Probably. Although it is likely that that plugin would be included in 
the default distribution for a while since there are a large number of 
sites using that format document.

Ross

Re: Introduction of XHTML?

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 18:52 +0200, Ferdinand Soethe wrote:
> I have two questions re the switch from Forrest document-v20-Format to
> xhtml:
> 
> - What is a realistic expectation for this to happen in terms of time
>   and version? (No guarantees expected of course!)
> 

0.8. 

There we will introduce the view/viewHelper/businessHelper plugins into
forrest. IMO those plugins should be totally based on xhtml.

> - Will Forrest still support document-vxx after the switch?
>   And if so, will document-vxx-support become a plugin?
> 

Hmm, looking on the architecture right now I reckon we would supported
it in the core.


> Thanks
> Ferdinand Soethe
> 

salu2
-- 
thorsten

"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)