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Posted to docs@httpd.apache.org by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca> on 2001/11/02 15:19:23 UTC
RE: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
> From: Justin Erenkrantz [mailto:jerenkrantz@ebuilt.com]
>
> As mentioned on site-dev and hinted on infrastructure, I'd
> like to see httpd.apache.org get cleaned up and modernized
> (much like apache.org).
>
> So, I've got a rough mockup of what I think it might look
> like running on my laptop using Anakia to generate the
> index.html file from an index.xml file:
>
> http://128.195.201.205:7888/httpd-site2/
This looks good to me. As I've mentioned before, I hope someone will
eventually figure out how to get away from table-in-table-in-table... and
use a good CSS stylesheet.
Just to complicate matters, however, I don't think either of the mailing
lists we are discussing this on is appropriate. I suggest future discussion
should go to docs@httpd.apache.org or dev@httpd.apache.org (probably the
former).
Joshua.
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Re: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by Ryan Bloom <rb...@covalent.net>.
On Friday 02 November 2001 06:19 am, Joshua Slive wrote:
> > From: Justin Erenkrantz [mailto:jerenkrantz@ebuilt.com]
> >
> > As mentioned on site-dev and hinted on infrastructure, I'd
> > like to see httpd.apache.org get cleaned up and modernized
> > (much like apache.org).
> >
> > So, I've got a rough mockup of what I think it might look
> > like running on my laptop using Anakia to generate the
> > index.html file from an index.xml file:
> >
> > http://128.195.201.205:7888/httpd-site2/
>
> This looks good to me. As I've mentioned before, I hope someone will
> eventually figure out how to get away from table-in-table-in-table... and
> use a good CSS stylesheet.
>
> Just to complicate matters, however, I don't think either of the mailing
> lists we are discussing this on is appropriate. I suggest future
> discussion should go to docs@httpd.apache.org or dev@httpd.apache.org
> (probably the former).
I would personally like to see this on dev. It should probably go to both dev
and docs. :-)
Ryan
______________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
Covalent Technologies rbb@covalent.net
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RE: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A Sutherland [mailto:jas88@cam.ac.uk]
> It does look like a good setup. As I say, you can achieve almost
> exactly the
> same results with SSI+CSS, but there's little point changing from
> one to the
> other...
OK.
>
> The one change I would suggest is making the transformation
> produce CSS-based
> XHTML;
++++++1. The current html output has some problems. In particular, MSIE5
and NS4 have a rendering bug that can sometimes cause them to cut off text
in larger table cells. It is very irritating. I'd love to get rid of table
in table in blockquote in table and replace it with some good CSS. But
making good, portable CSS is a non-trivial excercise.
Joshua.
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Re: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by James A Sutherland <ja...@cam.ac.uk>.
On Friday 02 November 2001 3:33 pm, Joshua Slive wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James A Sutherland [mailto:jas88@cam.ac.uk]
> >
> > > The XML is very simple and includes only the content of the page
> > > without extra formating information or the side menu. The
> > > transformation is necessary so that we can alter the look and feel of
> > > multiple
> >
> > pages on the
> >
> > > site without having to edit every single html page.
> >
> > All of which can be done using a combination of CSS and SSI: mark your
> > headings with <h1> and your paragraphs with <p> and that's it. (I'm using
> > inline style="..." rather than a style sheet, which makes the
> > <h1> tags a
> > little nastier-looking, but helps Netscape 4 rendering.)
>
> Sure, but it is much less flexible than the system we have in place. Take
> a look
> at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/ and see how nice and simple the
> xml is.
Nice and simple indeed. In fact, almost byte-by-byte the same as the HTML I
have here for the same job, making the whole comparison almost redundant :)
> This allows us in the future to make arbitrary changes to the
> look/feel/structure of the site without touching the source files. From an
> xml source there are also lots of choices for the transformation
> (xsl,anakia,etc), so we are not locked into a particular tool.
>
> I have done sites with extensive SSI, and I have to say that xml
> transformations seem to be much cleaner and more flexible.
It does look like a good setup. As I say, you can achieve almost exactly the
same results with SSI+CSS, but there's little point changing from one to the
other...
The one change I would suggest is making the transformation produce CSS-based
XHTML; I've done a version of the front page which Validates perfectly as
XHTML1 Strict and still renders reasonably on Netscape 4, using purely CSS
for style control. I think I'll have a play with the XML system myself over
the next few days, time permitting...
James.
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RE: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A Sutherland [mailto:jas88@cam.ac.uk]
> > The XML is very simple and includes only the content of the page without
> > extra formating information or the side menu. The transformation is
> > necessary so that we can alter the look and feel of multiple
> pages on the
> > site without having to edit every single html page.
>
> All of which can be done using a combination of CSS and SSI: mark your
> headings with <h1> and your paragraphs with <p> and that's it. (I'm using
> inline style="..." rather than a style sheet, which makes the
> <h1> tags a
> little nastier-looking, but helps Netscape 4 rendering.)
Sure, but it is much less flexible than the system we have in place. Take a
look
at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/ and see how nice and simple the
xml is. This allows us in the future to make arbitrary changes to the
look/feel/structure of the site without touching the source files. From an
xml source there are also lots of choices for the transformation
(xsl,anakia,etc), so we are not locked into a particular tool.
I have done sites with extensive SSI, and I have to say that xml
transformations seem to be much cleaner and more flexible.
Joshua.
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Re: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by James A Sutherland <ja...@cam.ac.uk>.
On Friday 02 November 2001 2:59 pm, Joshua Slive wrote:
> > From: James A Sutherland [mailto:jas88@cam.ac.uk]
> >
> > I like the look of it, but is there really a need for the extra
> > abstraction
> > of going XML->HTML? I think the page would work much better as a
> > single table
> > of straight HTML. It's a great layout, though...
>
> The XML is very simple and includes only the content of the page without
> extra formating information or the side menu. The transformation is
> necessary so that we can alter the look and feel of multiple pages on the
> site without having to edit every single html page.
All of which can be done using a combination of CSS and SSI: mark your
headings with <h1> and your paragraphs with <p> and that's it. (I'm using
inline style="..." rather than a style sheet, which makes the <h1> tags a
little nastier-looking, but helps Netscape 4 rendering.)
> I'd like to have the same thing for the httpd docs, but I don't have the
> time to put into it at the moment.
If we can use SSI for the docs pages (then "freeze" the pages using wget to
build the snapshot including in each httpd tarball?) I'd be able to update
the docs to use this layout etc.
James.
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RE: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
> From: James A Sutherland [mailto:jas88@cam.ac.uk]
>
> I like the look of it, but is there really a need for the extra
> abstraction
> of going XML->HTML? I think the page would work much better as a
> single table
> of straight HTML. It's a great layout, though...
>
The XML is very simple and includes only the content of the page without
extra formating information or the side menu. The transformation is
necessary so that we can alter the look and feel of multiple pages on the
site without having to edit every single html page.
I'd like to have the same thing for the httpd docs, but I don't have the
time to put into it at the moment.
Joshua.
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Re: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by James A Sutherland <ja...@cam.ac.uk>.
On Friday 02 November 2001 2:19 pm, Joshua Slive wrote:
> > From: Justin Erenkrantz [mailto:jerenkrantz@ebuilt.com]
> >
> > As mentioned on site-dev and hinted on infrastructure, I'd
> > like to see httpd.apache.org get cleaned up and modernized
> > (much like apache.org).
> >
> > So, I've got a rough mockup of what I think it might look
> > like running on my laptop using Anakia to generate the
> > index.html file from an index.xml file:
> >
> > http://128.195.201.205:7888/httpd-site2/
>
> This looks good to me. As I've mentioned before, I hope someone will
> eventually figure out how to get away from table-in-table-in-table... and
> use a good CSS stylesheet.
>
> Just to complicate matters, however, I don't think either of the mailing
> lists we are discussing this on is appropriate. I suggest future
> discussion should go to docs@httpd.apache.org or dev@httpd.apache.org
> (probably the former).
I like the look of it, but is there really a need for the extra abstraction
of going XML->HTML? I think the page would work much better as a single table
of straight HTML. It's a great layout, though...
James.
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Re: First cut at a redesign for httpd.apache.org
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 11/2/01 6:19 AM, "Joshua Slive" <jo...@slive.ca> wrote:
> This looks good to me. As I've mentioned before, I hope someone will
> eventually figure out how to get away from table-in-table-in-table... and
> use a good CSS stylesheet.
For what it is worth, the Scarab project has a *really* good stylesheet (and
resulting UI) that I think we should steal.
<http://scarab.whichever.com/>
Load that in your browser and then go into your preferences and turn off
CSS. I think you will be pretty amazed. View source as well, it looks great.
The guy that did the CSS is a master. Things look very good in Netscape4
class and higher.
Of course the layout can be tweaked pretty easily to better match what we
want (ie: we don't need some silly how do I help box on each page)
-jon
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