You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@pekko.apache.org by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID> on 2023/02/16 10:49:52 UTC
[DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to
shut down the cluster.
Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release of
Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one hand,
having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong
impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
feasible without pushing the release out even further.
My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work required
to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than
anticipated, i.e. see
https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644)
but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to
be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
miss anything.
Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing
the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community
are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned
before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I
see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the
large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out
(on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get
snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can
test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in
house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
Thoughts?
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
> For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
would there be?
So I am not sure whether this classifies as a "requirement' but the primary
problem is that a certain set of users cannot move from Akka to Pekko
because they are using Akka in a cluster and it's not an option for them to
completely shut down the cluster. In my view it would be disingenuous to
completely outright dismiss this concern, however of course we can manage
when it's done (that's the point of this discussion thread).
Specifically regarding why it was aimed for 1.0.x, the reasoning behind
this was that 1.0.x branch was meant to be a "transitory" branch, that is
for 1.0.x
* Behaviour sticks to Akka 2.6 as much as possible (i.e. no additional
features, even bug fixes unless critical/security)
* Contains additional code for helping users migrate from existing Akka
clusters to Pekko ones
The primary motivation is that 1.1.x becomes our main working branch (i.e.
main) and it would be a "clean" branch, and by "clean" I mean that the
1.1.x branch doesn't contain any cruft regarding migration. This is also
about sending a clear signal to the community, i.e. as a user once you move
from Pekko 1.0.x to Pekko 1.1x then all Akka compatibility concerns are
thrown out of the window.
You can also read
https://github.com/mdedetrich/akka-apache-project/discussions/28 for the
original reasoning/discussion on this point.
> To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
new features in that area.
Well if no one is interested in testing the mixed cluster scenarios then we
have to recalibrate anyways because honestly there isn't a point in
contemplating this for 1.0.x. However if someone steps up and provides a
strong indication that they would be willing to help test it I don't think
we shouldn't dismiss that. I believe sponsoring in the traditional way is
not how Apache works since it's a community (not a company) and they don't
want to be in a position of being dominated/influenced by a single company
sponsoring them for specific features, so any "sponsoring" would be helping
out in the general sense of contributing.
On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 1:07 PM Johannes Rudolph <jo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> would there be?
>
> Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
>
> To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> new features in that area.
>
> Johannes
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to
> shut down the cluster.
> >
> > Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release
> of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one
> hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong
> impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> feasible without pushing the release out even further.
> >
> > My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than
> anticipated, i.e. see
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644)
> but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to
> be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> miss anything.
> >
> > Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without
> pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko
> community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as
> mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that
> extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working
> at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to
> get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns,
> i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the
> community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time
> (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Matthew de Detrich
> >
> > Aiven Deutschland GmbH
> >
> > Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> >
> > Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> >
> > Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> >
> > m: +491603708037
> >
> > w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
>
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
> Does the Akka license proclude Apache from running Akka for testing
purposes? It might. If so, that would make it difficult if not impossible
to do the mixed cluster testing.
IANAL but according to their own blog post, using Akka under BSL for
testing is fine and permitted, quoting from
https://www.lightbend.com/blog/why-we-are-changing-the-license-for-akka
> The BSL is a “Source Available” license that freely allows using the code
for development and other non-production work such as testing. Production
use of the software requires a commercial license from Lightbend. The
commercial license will be available at no charge for early-stage companies
(less than US $25 million in annual revenue). By enabling early-stage
companies to use Akka in production for free, we hope to continue to foster
the innovation synonymous with the startup adoption of Akka.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 4:02 PM Claude Warren, Jr
<cl...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> Does the Akka license proclude Apache from running Akka for testing
> purposes? It might. If so, that would make it difficult if not impossible
> to do the mixed cluster testing.
>
> Claude
>
> IANAL -- "but I play one on the internet"
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Iain Hull <ia...@workday.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your excellent work on pekko. I have been following this list
> > with interest.
> >
> > Once there are stable release candidates for pekko and pekko-http I will
> > be trialling it with some of our internal services, and will put them
> > through our performance tests. I will send you the results as soon as
> > possible.
> >
> > We are not big akka cluster users and would be happy to cold restart the
> > affected services. Given this, as a hopeful user of pekko, my preference
> > would be to see the rolling upgrade from akka added in 1.0.1 to allow
> other
> > users earlier access.
> >
> > I really support your effort and wish I could contribute more, I hope to
> > in the future.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Iain.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniel Schroeter <ds...@theone.ch>
> > Sent: 17 February 2023 13:51
> > To: dev@pekko.apache.org <de...@pekko.apache.org>
> > Subject: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster
> > compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
> >
> > I fully agree with Johannes.
> >
> > Furthermore I'd say that
> > >could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility
> > might be true but having pekko released earlier without akka cluster
> > compatibility would help far more in that regard.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > On 16.02.2023 13:06 , Johannes Rudolph wrote:
> > > For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> > > would there be?
> > >
> > > Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> > > mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> > > able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> > > and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> > > glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> > > be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> > > will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
> > >
> > > To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> > > all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> > > that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> > > new features in that area.
> > >
> > > Johannes
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> > > <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> > >> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> > discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> > can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> > migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having
> to
> > shut down the cluster.
> > >>
> > >> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x
> > release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On
> the
> > one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very
> strong
> > impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> > adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> > feasible without pushing the release out even further.
> > >>
> > >> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> > required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower
> than
> > anticipated, i.e. see
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108*issuecomment-1400078644__;Iw!!Iz9xO38YGHZK!7uT1kNMwt1fHNY2dMiNaCQrK0IfmtBVmIeUQHiZqvk6gMbI0syb41v6NIxIMxL4-nmkciJhYc6v8dA$
> > ) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> > necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs
> to
> > be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> > miss anything.
> > >>
> > >> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without
> > pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko
> > community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that
> as
> > mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that
> > extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working
> > at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to
> > get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns,
> > i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the
> > community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time
> > (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Matthew de Detrich
> > >>
> > >> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
> > >>
> > >> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> > >>
> > >> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> > >>
> > >> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> > >>
> > >> m: +491603708037
> > >>
> > >> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Jean-Luc Deprez <Je...@gmail.com>.
Pretty sure no one is considering post 2.6 Akka.
Anyhow, just repeating here as in the referred thread. A cold start is a
minor thing compared to having Pekko, so wouldn't block 1.0 over lacking
hot migration.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 4:02 PM Claude Warren, Jr
<cl...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> Does the Akka license proclude Apache from running Akka for testing
> purposes? It might. If so, that would make it difficult if not impossible
> to do the mixed cluster testing.
>
> Claude
>
> IANAL -- "but I play one on the internet"
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Iain Hull <ia...@workday.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your excellent work on pekko. I have been following this list
> > with interest.
> >
> > Once there are stable release candidates for pekko and pekko-http I will
> > be trialling it with some of our internal services, and will put them
> > through our performance tests. I will send you the results as soon as
> > possible.
> >
> > We are not big akka cluster users and would be happy to cold restart the
> > affected services. Given this, as a hopeful user of pekko, my preference
> > would be to see the rolling upgrade from akka added in 1.0.1 to allow
> other
> > users earlier access.
> >
> > I really support your effort and wish I could contribute more, I hope to
> > in the future.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Iain.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniel Schroeter <ds...@theone.ch>
> > Sent: 17 February 2023 13:51
> > To: dev@pekko.apache.org <de...@pekko.apache.org>
> > Subject: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster
> > compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
> >
> > I fully agree with Johannes.
> >
> > Furthermore I'd say that
> > >could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility
> > might be true but having pekko released earlier without akka cluster
> > compatibility would help far more in that regard.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > On 16.02.2023 13:06 , Johannes Rudolph wrote:
> > > For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> > > would there be?
> > >
> > > Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> > > mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> > > able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> > > and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> > > glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> > > be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> > > will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
> > >
> > > To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> > > all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> > > that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> > > new features in that area.
> > >
> > > Johannes
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> > > <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> > >> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> > discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> > can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> > migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having
> to
> > shut down the cluster.
> > >>
> > >> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x
> > release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On
> the
> > one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very
> strong
> > impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> > adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> > feasible without pushing the release out even further.
> > >>
> > >> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> > required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower
> than
> > anticipated, i.e. see
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108*issuecomment-1400078644__;Iw!!Iz9xO38YGHZK!7uT1kNMwt1fHNY2dMiNaCQrK0IfmtBVmIeUQHiZqvk6gMbI0syb41v6NIxIMxL4-nmkciJhYc6v8dA$
> > ) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> > necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs
> to
> > be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> > miss anything.
> > >>
> > >> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without
> > pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko
> > community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that
> as
> > mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that
> > extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working
> > at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to
> > get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns,
> > i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the
> > community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time
> > (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Matthew de Detrich
> > >>
> > >> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
> > >>
> > >> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> > >>
> > >> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> > >>
> > >> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> > >>
> > >> m: +491603708037
> > >>
> > >> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by "Claude Warren, Jr" <cl...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
Does the Akka license proclude Apache from running Akka for testing
purposes? It might. If so, that would make it difficult if not impossible
to do the mixed cluster testing.
Claude
IANAL -- "but I play one on the internet"
On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Iain Hull <ia...@workday.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Thanks for your excellent work on pekko. I have been following this list
> with interest.
>
> Once there are stable release candidates for pekko and pekko-http I will
> be trialling it with some of our internal services, and will put them
> through our performance tests. I will send you the results as soon as
> possible.
>
> We are not big akka cluster users and would be happy to cold restart the
> affected services. Given this, as a hopeful user of pekko, my preference
> would be to see the rolling upgrade from akka added in 1.0.1 to allow other
> users earlier access.
>
> I really support your effort and wish I could contribute more, I hope to
> in the future.
>
> Thanks,
> Iain.
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel Schroeter <ds...@theone.ch>
> Sent: 17 February 2023 13:51
> To: dev@pekko.apache.org <de...@pekko.apache.org>
> Subject: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster
> compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
>
> I fully agree with Johannes.
>
> Furthermore I'd say that
> >could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility
> might be true but having pekko released earlier without akka cluster
> compatibility would help far more in that regard.
>
> Daniel
>
> On 16.02.2023 13:06 , Johannes Rudolph wrote:
> > For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> > would there be?
> >
> > Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> > mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> > able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> > and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> > glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> > be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> > will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
> >
> > To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> > all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> > that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> > new features in that area.
> >
> > Johannes
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> > <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> >> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to
> shut down the cluster.
> >>
> >> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x
> release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the
> one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong
> impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> feasible without pushing the release out even further.
> >>
> >> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than
> anticipated, i.e. see
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108*issuecomment-1400078644__;Iw!!Iz9xO38YGHZK!7uT1kNMwt1fHNY2dMiNaCQrK0IfmtBVmIeUQHiZqvk6gMbI0syb41v6NIxIMxL4-nmkciJhYc6v8dA$
> ) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to
> be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> miss anything.
> >>
> >> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without
> pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko
> community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as
> mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that
> extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working
> at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to
> get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns,
> i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the
> community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time
> (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Matthew de Detrich
> >>
> >> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
> >>
> >> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> >>
> >> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> >>
> >> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> >>
> >> m: +491603708037
> >>
> >> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
>
Re: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Iain Hull <ia...@workday.com.INVALID>.
Thanks for your excellent work on pekko. I have been following this list with interest.
Once there are stable release candidates for pekko and pekko-http I will be trialling it with some of our internal services, and will put them through our performance tests. I will send you the results as soon as possible.
We are not big akka cluster users and would be happy to cold restart the affected services. Given this, as a hopeful user of pekko, my preference would be to see the rolling upgrade from akka added in 1.0.1 to allow other users earlier access.
I really support your effort and wish I could contribute more, I hope to in the future.
Thanks,
Iain.
________________________________
From: Daniel Schroeter <ds...@theone.ch>
Sent: 17 February 2023 13:51
To: dev@pekko.apache.org <de...@pekko.apache.org>
Subject: [External Sender] Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
I fully agree with Johannes.
Furthermore I'd say that
>could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility
might be true but having pekko released earlier without akka cluster
compatibility would help far more in that regard.
Daniel
On 16.02.2023 13:06 , Johannes Rudolph wrote:
> For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> would there be?
>
> Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
>
> To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> new features in that area.
>
> Johannes
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
>> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator) discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to shut down the cluster.
>>
>> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong impression which could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>>
>> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than anticipated, i.e. see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108*issuecomment-1400078644__;Iw!!Iz9xO38YGHZK!7uT1kNMwt1fHNY2dMiNaCQrK0IfmtBVmIeUQHiZqvk6gMbI0syb41v6NIxIMxL4-nmkciJhYc6v8dA$ ) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't miss anything.
>>
>> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Matthew de Detrich
>>
>> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
>>
>> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>>
>> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>>
>> m: +491603708037
>>
>> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Daniel Schroeter <ds...@theone.ch>.
I fully agree with Johannes.
Furthermore I'd say that
>could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility
might be true but having pekko released earlier without akka cluster
compatibility would help far more in that regard.
Daniel
On 16.02.2023 13:06 , Johannes Rudolph wrote:
> For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
> would there be?
>
> Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
> mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
> able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
> and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
> glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
> be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
> will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
>
> To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
> all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
> that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
> new features in that area.
>
> Johannes
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
> <ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
>> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator) discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to shut down the cluster.
>>
>> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong impression which could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>>
>> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than anticipated, i.e. see https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't miss anything.
>>
>> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Matthew de Detrich
>>
>> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
>>
>> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>>
>> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>>
>> m: +491603708037
>>
>> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Johannes Rudolph <jo...@gmail.com>.
For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
would there be?
Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
new features in that area.
Johannes
On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
<ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
>
> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator) discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to shut down the cluster.
>
> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong impression which could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>
> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than anticipated, i.e. see https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't miss anything.
>
> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
>
> Matthew de Detrich
>
> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
>
> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>
> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>
> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>
> m: +491603708037
>
> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@pekko.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Johannes Rudolph <jo...@gmail.com>.
For me there's clearly no requirement to have that feature in 1.0. Why
would there be?
Whether it is feasible to add this feature in the future depends
mostly on sponsoring. If any of the many companies that asked would be
able to step up and contribute that feature or pay for its development
and testing then we might get the feature, otherwise we won't (I'd be
glad to work on this if someone would sponsor it but my estimate would
be at least a month of work, since this is an enterprise feature that
will need support in deploying, testing it etc).
To focus on our current state, there's no one who currently cares that
all the nightly cluster tests are green or that we organize machines
that could run the multi-node tests. So, we are far from adding any
new features in that area.
Johannes
On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:50 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich
<ma...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
>
> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator) discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to shut down the cluster.
>
> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong impression which could theoretically increase the amount of adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>
> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than anticipated, i.e. see https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644) but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't miss anything.
>
> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
>
> Matthew de Detrich
>
> Aiven Deutschland GmbH
>
> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>
> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>
> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>
> m: +491603708037
>
> w: aiven.io e: matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
Thanks everyone for the responses, it seems like the hot migration in fact
is not a critical feature which is good news (means we have less work to do
for the 1.0.0 release).
Regards
On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:49 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich <
matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io> wrote:
> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to
> shut down the cluster.
>
> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release
> of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one
> hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong
> impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>
> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than
> anticipated, i.e. see
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644)
> but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to
> be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> miss anything.
>
> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing
> the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community
> are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned
> before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I
> see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the
> large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out
> (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get
> snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can
> test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in
> house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
>
> Matthew de Detrich
>
> *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
>
> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>
> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>
> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>
> *m:* +491603708037
>
> *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
>
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [DISCUSS] Should we aim for mix-cluster compatibility in 1.0.x release of Pekko?
Posted by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
Thanks everyone for the responses, it seems like the hot migration in fact
is not a critical feature which is good news (means we have less work to do
for the 1.0.0 release).
Regards
On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 11:49 AM Matthew Benedict de Detrich <
matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io> wrote:
> Historically (even before Pekko was accepted into Apache Incubator)
> discussions have been made about implementing changes to Pekko so that it
> can run alongside Akka in existing Akka clusters which is necessary to
> migrate from Akka to Pekko (in a rolling release fashion) without having to
> shut down the cluster.
>
> Initially it was planned to have such functionality in the 1.0.x release
> of Pekko since a non trivial amount of people asked for it. On the one
> hand, having such functionality in Pekko 1.0.x would send a very strong
> impression which could theoretically increase the amount of
> adoption/visibility however there are concerns about whether this is
> feasible without pushing the release out even further.
>
> My initial impressions is that the actual amount of technical work
> required to achieve this is not a lot (in fact arguably its even lower than
> anticipated, i.e. see
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-pekko/issues/108#issuecomment-1400078644)
> but I predict largest bulk of work is not in the implementation of the
> necessary changes, but rather all of the mix cluster testing that needs to
> be done in order to verify that everything works correctly and we didn't
> miss anything.
>
> Personally I think that doing this for 1.0.x is achievable without pushing
> the release out significantly but only if people within the Pekko community
> are willing to test mix cluster setups (on the assumption that as mentioned
> before, the actual technical changes required aren't that extensive). As I
> see it, the most active committers right now are working at capacity on the
> large bucket list of changes that needs to be done to get Pekko release out
> (on top of that there are other competing concerns, i.e. trying to get
> snapshots for other Pekko modules so that at least the community can
> test/try it out) and at least for me I don't have the time (or even in
> house knowledge) on mix cluster testing.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
>
> Matthew de Detrich
>
> *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
>
> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>
> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>
> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>
> *m:* +491603708037
>
> *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
>
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io