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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by pl...@netscape.net on 2002/07/10 23:06:20 UTC
Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity? Is there anything JSP
can do that Velocity can't? I have read much (on the Velocity web-site)
about the advantages of Velocity over JSP, but I keep thinking there
must be another side of the story. The only thing in favor of JSP that
I have found is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
with Struts.
Thanks in advance for any tips you can offer,
--Paul
Paul Lynch
Aquilent, Inc.
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RE: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by TechnoSF <te...@speakeasy.net>.
Apart from basics such as HTML+Velo being much esier to work than JSP's, what makes Velocity the 'killer app' for me is...
not having to wait for a JSP to compile as I battle with my sub-par HTML skills in a tag-by-tag fight to the death. It's instant gratification baby!
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 7/10/2002 at 17:46 Charles N. Harvey III wrote:
>An opinion on what JSP has over Velocity that I have run into (like a
>brick
>wall)
>is that you are in complete control of the source. With a custom tag you
>create
>it and you manage it. And if it breaks or doesn't have a feature that you
>want,
>then you make the change. If there is something wrong with Velocity then
>you
>have to wait for the next release.
>
>This argument is a bit ridiculous since it is open source code and you can
>make
>any changes that you want.
>
>The other argument is that "There is no book on Velocity". Thing is, the
>VTL
>is so easy for web designers to learn that the only "book" needed is the
>one
>web page on the site. I personally think its much better than an enourmous
>JSP book.
>
>The third argument is that JSP is a Standard Implementation blessed by Sun.
>So if
>you are a standards kind of guy then JSP is your answer. Then again,
>Velocity has
>a taglib so you can use it inside of JSP pages.
>
>>From my experience and from what others have said on this list (which is of
>course
>slightly biased towards Velocity) is that Velocity has every JSP angle
>covered and
>it generally makes development easier for everyone.
>
>
>The best way it to just give it a shot. Code a few pages. Take some time
>to convert
>a small application that you have. See if you like it. Most of the people
>here are
>quite certain that you will.
>
>
>Charlie
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: plynchnlm@netscape.net [mailto:plynchnlm@netscape.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 5:06 PM
>> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
>> Subject: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
>>
>>
>> Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity? Is there anything JSP
>> can do that Velocity can't? I have read much (on the Velocity web-site)
>> about the advantages of Velocity over JSP, but I keep thinking there
>> must be another side of the story. The only thing in favor of JSP that
>> I have found is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
>> with Struts.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any tips you can offer,
>> --Paul
>>
>> Paul Lynch
>> Aquilent, Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift
>> ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with
>> Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/
>>
>> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
>> http://webmail.netscape.com/
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
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RE: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by Barbara Baughman <ba...@utdallas.edu>.
One advantage is that you don't need to learn Java to use JSP. If your
JSP pages have little in the way of programming, then JSP is easier to
use and faster to develop (assuming you don't get any cryptic java error
messages).
Barbara Baughman
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Charles N. Harvey III wrote:
> An opinion on what JSP has over Velocity that I have run into (like a brick
> wall)
> is that you are in complete control of the source. With a custom tag you
> create
> it and you manage it. And if it breaks or doesn't have a feature that you
> want,
> then you make the change. If there is something wrong with Velocity then
> you
> have to wait for the next release.
>
> This argument is a bit ridiculous since it is open source code and you can
> make
> any changes that you want.
>
> The other argument is that "There is no book on Velocity". Thing is, the
> VTL
> is so easy for web designers to learn that the only "book" needed is the one
> web page on the site. I personally think its much better than an enourmous
> JSP book.
>
> The third argument is that JSP is a Standard Implementation blessed by Sun.
> So if
> you are a standards kind of guy then JSP is your answer. Then again,
> Velocity has
> a taglib so you can use it inside of JSP pages.
>
> From my experience and from what others have said on this list (which is of
> course
> slightly biased towards Velocity) is that Velocity has every JSP angle
> covered and
> it generally makes development easier for everyone.
>
>
> The best way it to just give it a shot. Code a few pages. Take some time
> to convert
> a small application that you have. See if you like it. Most of the people
> here are
> quite certain that you will.
>
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: plynchnlm@netscape.net [mailto:plynchnlm@netscape.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 5:06 PM
> > To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
> >
> >
> > Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity? Is there anything JSP
> > can do that Velocity can't? I have read much (on the Velocity web-site)
> > about the advantages of Velocity over JSP, but I keep thinking there
> > must be another side of the story. The only thing in favor of JSP that
> > I have found is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
> > with Struts.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any tips you can offer,
> > --Paul
> >
> > Paul Lynch
> > Aquilent, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift
> > ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with
> > Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/
> >
> > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
> > http://webmail.netscape.com/
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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RE: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by "Charles N. Harvey III" <ch...@alloy.com>.
An opinion on what JSP has over Velocity that I have run into (like a brick
wall)
is that you are in complete control of the source. With a custom tag you
create
it and you manage it. And if it breaks or doesn't have a feature that you
want,
then you make the change. If there is something wrong with Velocity then
you
have to wait for the next release.
This argument is a bit ridiculous since it is open source code and you can
make
any changes that you want.
The other argument is that "There is no book on Velocity". Thing is, the
VTL
is so easy for web designers to learn that the only "book" needed is the one
web page on the site. I personally think its much better than an enourmous
JSP book.
The third argument is that JSP is a Standard Implementation blessed by Sun.
So if
you are a standards kind of guy then JSP is your answer. Then again,
Velocity has
a taglib so you can use it inside of JSP pages.
>From my experience and from what others have said on this list (which is of
course
slightly biased towards Velocity) is that Velocity has every JSP angle
covered and
it generally makes development easier for everyone.
The best way it to just give it a shot. Code a few pages. Take some time
to convert
a small application that you have. See if you like it. Most of the people
here are
quite certain that you will.
Charlie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: plynchnlm@netscape.net [mailto:plynchnlm@netscape.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 5:06 PM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
>
>
> Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity? Is there anything JSP
> can do that Velocity can't? I have read much (on the Velocity web-site)
> about the advantages of Velocity over JSP, but I keep thinking there
> must be another side of the story. The only thing in favor of JSP that
> I have found is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
> with Struts.
>
> Thanks in advance for any tips you can offer,
> --Paul
>
> Paul Lynch
> Aquilent, Inc.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift
> ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with
> Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/
>
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
> http://webmail.netscape.com/
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 7/10/02 6:38 PM, "Tim Colson" <tc...@cisco.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
>
> #macro's throw the smack down on taglibs! <grin>
>
That's going up on the site....
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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RE: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by Tim Colson <tc...@cisco.com>.
> Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity?
It takes less breath to say "JSP sucks"? <grin>
> Is there anything JSP can do that Velocity can't?
Heh heh... sure, thing. :-)
- JSP can enfuriate you easily if there are errors.
- JSP can have java code embedded inside it, invariably leading to
trouble.
- JSP can take forever to learn, whereas Velocity usually only takes an
hour.
Seriously - the only good thing I can think of is the ability to rapidly
prototype.
But hey, with the Velocity-Tools Toolbox, VelocityViewServlet, and a SQL
tool in the context - we could build simple Model 1 apps using only *.vm
files too.
(Let's hope we keep our sanity and avoid this path in lieu of an MVC
framework.)
> I keep thinking there must be another side of the story.
True. There is... but I think Charles point #3 sums most of the opinions
I hear - the "Sun blessed standard acronym". I'll bet if Velocity was
named JTL "Java Template Language" - there'd be a mass exodus into the
JTL camp over JSP. <laugh>
> The only thing in favor of JSP that I have found
> is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
> with Struts.
Heh heh - and here are a couple problems I have with that custom tag
thing:
- "usually" they involve embedding HTML (i.e. presentation info) inside
of Java code - not good separation
- If the taglib needs changing ("I want negative numbers in drop-downs
to be pink.") you need to grab a Java Developer to make a UI change.
- Learning curve (Struts is great, use it myself, but the taglibs can
die a horrible death IMHO so I'll never have to relearn how to use
<FORM> as <HTML:FORM>.)
#macro's throw the smack down on taglibs! <grin>
Biasedly yours -
Tim
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Re: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by Jeff Duska <Je...@noaa.gov>.
Will Glass-Husain wrote:
I know what you mean this something I plan on working on for DreamWeaver
MX via extensions. I've got a bit of a learning curve, but I want it to
work even better than the JSP stuff does. I was very disappointed in the
functionality of the JSP stuff. I want all the features I'm used to in
Visual Studio when I did ASP to work in Dreamweaver MX. This would give
you statement completion on references, debugging and etc. There would
be MVC wizard to do databases and etc. I have a lot to learn before I
get, but I keep this list posted as I progress.
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Re: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by Tim Pizey <ti...@paneris.org>.
On Wednesday 10 July 2002 21:26, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
> The big disadvantage (e.g. what we miss by not using JSP) is that some of
> the major HTML editors (like Macromedia DreamWeaver) are compatible with
> JSP but not Velocity. Sure, there are some substitutes (see previous
> threads on this topic), but they don't compare in ubiquity (and arguably)
> usability to DreamWeaver. This makes it a little harder for third party
> web designers to create pages.
I am really suprised that Macromedia hasn't caught up, Velocity and
Webmacro before it arose as a principled reaction against JSP,
an argument which all here think was won some two years ago.
I hope that Velocity is the mainstream and that I will never have to
deal with JSP.
cheers
Tim Pizey
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RE: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Hi,
We use Velocity extensively.
The big disadvantage (e.g. what we miss by not using JSP) is that some of
the major HTML editors (like Macromedia DreamWeaver) are compatible with JSP
but not Velocity. Sure, there are some substitutes (see previous threads on
this topic), but they don't compare in ubiquity (and arguably) usability to
DreamWeaver. This makes it a little harder for third party web designers to
create pages.
WILL
-----Original Message-----
From: plynchnlm@netscape.net [mailto:plynchnlm@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 2:06 PM
To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Advantages of JSP over Velocity
Are there any advantages of JSP over Velocity? Is there anything JSP
can do that Velocity can't? I have read much (on the Velocity web-site)
about the advantages of Velocity over JSP, but I keep thinking there
must be another side of the story. The only thing in favor of JSP that
I have found is the custom tag libraries that are available, especially
with Struts.
Thanks in advance for any tips you can offer,
--Paul
Paul Lynch
Aquilent, Inc.
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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