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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by di...@multitask.com.au on 2002/04/30 02:42:46 UTC
Trademarks, copyright etc
Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names legally in
our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache Struts etc. Do
there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names trademarked,
copyrighted etc?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
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RE: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Dirk,
the question was whether the creation of a mailing list for discussion
of legal and commercial matters around Apache technology wouldn't be
useful. I.e. Dion's original question whether he could explicitely refer
to Apache projects (he's involved in or working with), whether he should
do proper trademark attribution, etc...
Me for myself am still thinking of organising an 'Apache-centric' open
source seminar/workshop/conference later on during the year in Belgium,
and am wondering what the thin line is between attributing, using and
abusing the Apache brand.
Clearly this is the kind of topics not destined towards neither
general@jakarta nor general@xml - so the creation of such an ASF-wide
list might be useful. We could call it 'where2worldsmeet@apache.org' ;-)
Regards,
</Steven>
>
> So this is a jakarata thing - if the developers are clearly
> in favour of
> this - then expect the board to facilitate the PMC as much as
> possibole
> and help you understand what it costs and what is gained (or
> lost). But
> ultimately it needs to be driven from the jakarta side :-).
>
> Dw
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RE: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by di...@covalent.net.
On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Steven Noels wrote:
> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > "Alex McLintock" <al...@OWAL.co.uk> wrote:
..
> > (Ken, Dirk, and all
> > those who know something about $$$ and ���)...
Yep - this stuff is *not* cheap - several k's of $. Bear in mind you can
only spend money 'once' - and consider what it buys you (which is
relatively little - unless one is very diligent in following up every
breach - and also needs to be offset against the fact that by the virtue
of using a name it gets by defacto owned.).
> > If the PMC finds this appropriate, we might just ask it to
> > members or board..
> By all means: yes!
Bear in mind that the board is more of a 'sanity' valve in cases like
this; rather than the deceision driver. That is down to the PMC and the
developers.
So this is a jakarata thing - if the developers are clearly in favour of
this - then expect the board to facilitate the PMC as much as possibole
and help you understand what it costs and what is gained (or lost). But
ultimately it needs to be driven from the jakarta side :-).
Dw
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RE: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Alex McLintock" <al...@OWAL.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think there is any forum appropriate for that yet,
> and I can see
> > that some people (such as Pier above) isn't so keen on
> discussing it on the
> > existing mailing lists. :-)
[...]
> I would be keen to see an @apache.org global list
> on that, with
> the support of some peeps from the "legal" department...
> (Ken, Dirk, and all
> those who know something about $$$ and £££)...
>
> If the PMC finds this appropriate, we might just ask it to
> members or board..
By all means: yes!
</Steven>
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Alex McLintock" <al...@OWAL.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't think there is any forum appropriate for that yet, and I can see
> that some people (such as Pier above) isn't so keen on discussing it on the
> existing mailing lists. :-)
It's not that I'm not "keen", don't get me wrong, I just don't know anything
about it, and AFAIK there's nobody active on this list who will be able to
give you the "final" answer. Also, those kinds of issues are not strictly
related to Jakarta, since Jakarta is just a subproject, but are more tied to
what the board and members do. It has a wider scope than the Jakarta project
itself... I would be keen to see an @apache.org global list on that, with
the support of some peeps from the "legal" department... (Ken, Dirk, and all
those who know something about $$$ and £££)...
If the PMC finds this appropriate, we might just ask it to members or board..
Pier
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@OWAL.co.uk>.
>"dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names legally in
> > our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache Struts etc. Do
> > there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names trademarked,
> > copyrighted etc?
At 02:28 30/04/02, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>AFAIK, the only name having an official (TM) is only "Apache" per se, but
>you might want to contact the Apache Software Foundation "legal department"
>(aka, Ken) at <ma...@apache.org> who usually deals with all this
>"crap".
Alex asks:
Would it be possible to start up a mailing list for consultants such as
dion (and myself) so that we can discuss such commercial issues.
It would be good for people offering support and consultancy in Apache
software to band together and learn from each other.
I'd like it to be a forum where it is ok to publicise yourself, and a forum
where companies can go looking for professional support.
I don't think there is any forum appropriate for that yet, and I can see
that some people (such as Pier above) isn't so keen on discussing it on the
existing mailing lists. :-)
Alex
Openweb Analysts Ltd, London: Software For Complex Websites
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
Free Consultancy for London Companies thinking of Open Source Software.
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Warner Onstine <sw...@warneronstine.com>.
Since Trademarking takes money (I know we're doing that right now), I doubt
it. However the work itself is copyrighted by the jakarta project and the
developer of the work. So, bottom line is no there shouldn't be a tm next to
any of those AFAIK.
-warner
----- Original Message -----
From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 5:42 PM
Subject: Trademarks, copyright etc
> Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names legally
in
> our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache Struts etc. Do
> there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names trademarked,
> copyrighted etc?
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:13:47 +1000
> From: Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 2 May 2002 08:41, Hans Bergsten wrote:
> > Related to this, I was just asked what formal names we should use for
> > Jakarta subproject products, say Struts, in books and articles. Is it:
> > a) Apache Jakarta Struts
> > b) Apache Struts
> > c) Jakarta Struts
> >
> > I have a feeling it's a) but the other forms also seem reasonable.
>
> FWIW I tend to use (b) when discussing them and if I want to get in jakarta it
> would be something like
>
> Apache Struts at Jakarta
>
> Jakarta is just the container where Stuts is hosted while Apache are the
> "real" owners
>
I use (b) as well when I describe our subprojects.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Donald
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, 2 May 2002 08:41, Hans Bergsten wrote:
> Related to this, I was just asked what formal names we should use for
> Jakarta subproject products, say Struts, in books and articles. Is it:
> a) Apache Jakarta Struts
> b) Apache Struts
> c) Jakarta Struts
>
> I have a feeling it's a) but the other forms also seem reasonable.
FWIW I tend to use (b) when discussing them and if I want to get in jakarta it
would be something like
Apache Struts at Jakarta
Jakarta is just the container where Stuts is hosted while Apache are the
"real" owners
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Peter Donald
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Hans Bergsten <ha...@gefionsoftware.com>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> [...]
> TradeMarks can be registered or not. Registered trademarks are easier to
> defend in court and the "Apache" name would be an example of one I guess.
> However other names like Ant, Tomcat etc could still be considered trademarks
> (if we treated them as such and went after people who mis-used them) however
> they are much harder to enforce and require a much more active defense. At
> least thats what I vaguely recall but I could be wrong :)
This matches my understanding as well, with the addition that only
registered trademarks cost real money (you may have to pay legal fees
to fight for your unregistered trademark later, but that's another
story).
Related to this, I was just asked what formal names we should use for
Jakarta subproject products, say Struts, in books and articles. Is it:
a) Apache Jakarta Struts
b) Apache Struts
c) Jakarta Struts
I have a feeling it's a) but the other forms also seem reasonable.
Hans--
Hans Bergsten hans@gefionsoftware.com
Gefion Software http://www.gefionsoftware.com
JavaServer Pages http://TheJSPBook.com
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 1 May 2002 20:45, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> | "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
> | > Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names
> | > legally in our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache
> | > Struts etc. Do there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names
> | > trademarked, copyrighted etc?
> |
> | AFAIK, the only name having an official (TM) is only "Apache" per se, but
> | you might want to contact the Apache Software Foundation "legal
> | department" (aka, Ken) at <ma...@apache.org> who usually deals
> | with all this "crap".
>
> What's the difference between (R) and (TM) ?
>
> I had an idea about (R) being the thing you had to pay to get, like
> _register_ the name, while (TM) just meant that "Hey, I'M using this name,
> so please back off!".
TradeMarks can be registered or not. Registered trademarks are easier to
defend in court and the "Apache" name would be an example of one I guess.
However other names like Ant, Tomcat etc could still be considered trademarks
(if we treated them as such and went after people who mis-used them) however
they are much harder to enforce and require a much more active defense. At
least thats what I vaguely recall but I could be wrong :)
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Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
| "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
|
| > Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names legally in
| > our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache Struts etc. Do
| > there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names trademarked,
| > copyrighted etc?
|
| AFAIK, the only name having an official (TM) is only "Apache" per se, but
| you might want to contact the Apache Software Foundation "legal department"
| (aka, Ken) at <ma...@apache.org> who usually deals with all this
| "crap".
What's the difference between (R) and (TM) ?
I had an idea about (R) being the thing you had to pay to get, like
_register_ the name, while (TM) just meant that "Hey, I'M using this name,
so please back off!".
--
Mvh,
Endre
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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
> Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names legally in
> our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache Struts etc. Do
> there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names trademarked,
> copyrighted etc?
AFAIK, the only name having an official (TM) is only "Apache" per se, but
you might want to contact the Apache Software Foundation "legal department"
(aka, Ken) at <ma...@apache.org> who usually deals with all this
"crap".
Pier (CCing around)
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I think that it's extremely foolish to name a server after the current U.S.
President. B.W. Fitzpatrick
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