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Posted to doc@openoffice.apache.org by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net> on 2015/04/29 19:09:35 UTC
Where are we with the documentation?
Greetings All;
Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
There has been some work done on various parts of the Guide, but no real
discussion here. We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used
so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but
it rarely gets used. All of this has to beg the question where are we
with documentation; do we really want to have the documentation done "in
house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the
correct way to go?
I for one firmly believe that not having up to date user documentation
reflects poorly on the project as a whole. It is time for us to take a
hard look at what we want to do and come together and try to move
forward either with what we have or by starting over and re-defining
what we want and the process to get there. Either that our we have to
decide that we are just not in a position to this piece and fold. I hope
that it is not the later.
Respectfully
Keith N. McKenna
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Dave <da...@gmail.com>.
Hi all
can someone briefly explain the (dis)advantages of working with
odf-authors? how far are they with their documentation?
On 30 April 2015 at 17:29, Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi Jonathon,
>
> jonathon schrieb:
>
>> Let's rephrase the question. Do you understand why ODFAuthor's is not
>> creating documentation for specifically for Apache OpenOffice?
>>
>>
> ODF Authors is only the working environment. The website starts with "This
> is a development site for LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice (formerly
> OpenOffice.org) documentation." and they have a directory for Apache
> OpenOffice. It is our decision to use it or not to use it. You cannot blame
> ODF Authors, when we do not use it.
>
> And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are so
> few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot follow
> the changes in LibreOffice soon. It is not reasonable to expect that these
> people care about Apache OpenOffice. It is the duty of the Apache
> OpenOffice community to provide documentations for their users.
>
> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And when
> authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF Authors.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: doc-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: doc-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Dave <da...@gmail.com>.
Perhaps a crazy idea: How about organizing a telephone conference some time
in the late summer and inviting all the main authors (past and present) to
discuss this together? It seems to me a great pity if energies are not
bundled together. And past difficulties can surely be overcome.
On 1 May 2015 at 00:07, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
> jonathon wrote:
> > On 30/04/15 15:29, Regina Henschel wrote:
> >
> >> And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are
> > so few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
> > follow the changes in LibreOffice soon.
> >
> > I'll grant that ODFAuthors doesn't have many people. Regardless, that
> > point is irrelevant here. (Well, it is relevant, to the point of
> > considering why ODFAuthors isn't actively involved in AOo documentation.)
> >
> >> It is not reasonable to expect that these people care about Apache
> > OpenOffice.
> >
> > Some of the people in ODFAuthors were willing to either write original
> > documentation where needed, and/or modify/adapt LibO documentation to
> > reflect the changes/differences in AOo. Do note the use of the past
> > tense here.
> >
> >> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
> >
> > Then when did most of the ODFAuthors resign from the AOo documentation
> > project?
> >
> > More pointedly, why did the former head of the AOo Documentation project
> > resign? (Need I point out that the wiki page lists that individual as
> > the current head of AOo documentation.)
> >
> >> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And
> when authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF
> Authors.
> >
> > Every organization that creates documentation, has a workflow.
> > Sometimes that workflow is clearly defined, outlined, and includes
> > everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce quality
> > output. Sometimes that workflow is not only not defined, but manages to
> > omit everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce any
> > output.
> >
> > Whilst one can't force authors to follow a specific workflow, a clearly
> > defined, rational workflow process makes it much easier for authors to
> > create their content.
> >
> > The process that ODFAuthors uses, is based on their experience of
> > creating documentation. Some aspects can be exasperating, but on the
> > whole even those aspects are beneficial to the content creator.
> >
> > Keith wrote:
> >
> > Johnathon;
> >
> >> If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
> > in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them,
> >
> > What I'm saying, is to look at the history of the project, from the days
> > that it was StarOffice. Look at how documentation (both quality and
> > quantity) has increased, and decreased over that time, and, more
> > importantly where and how it was produced.
> >
> > To see what is, in effect,an entire documentation team, resign thrice,
> > indicates that major issues keep re-ocurring. Furthermore, it can't be
> > said that it was the same few people who were unhappy, because at least
> > two of those documentation teams had no individuals in common.
> > I'm not sure how much, if any overlap, there was between the third of
> > those teams, and either of the other two.
> >
> Jonathon;
> Please enlighten us then most omniscient guru. You obviously have
> knowledge that the rest of us lack and that may be germane. So far all I
> have seen is your need to re-hash the past for your own reasons while
> offering no concrete suggestions on how to move us forward from here.
>
> Keith
> > jonathon
> >
> > * English - detected
> > * English
> >
> > * English
> >
> > <javascript:void(0);>
> >
>
>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
jonathon wrote:
> On 30/04/15 15:29, Regina Henschel wrote:
>
>> And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are
> so few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
> follow the changes in LibreOffice soon.
>
> I'll grant that ODFAuthors doesn't have many people. Regardless, that
> point is irrelevant here. (Well, it is relevant, to the point of
> considering why ODFAuthors isn't actively involved in AOo documentation.)
>
>> It is not reasonable to expect that these people care about Apache
> OpenOffice.
>
> Some of the people in ODFAuthors were willing to either write original
> documentation where needed, and/or modify/adapt LibO documentation to
> reflect the changes/differences in AOo. Do note the use of the past
> tense here.
>
>> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
>
> Then when did most of the ODFAuthors resign from the AOo documentation
> project?
>
> More pointedly, why did the former head of the AOo Documentation project
> resign? (Need I point out that the wiki page lists that individual as
> the current head of AOo documentation.)
>
>> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And when authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF Authors.
>
> Every organization that creates documentation, has a workflow.
> Sometimes that workflow is clearly defined, outlined, and includes
> everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce quality
> output. Sometimes that workflow is not only not defined, but manages to
> omit everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce any
> output.
>
> Whilst one can't force authors to follow a specific workflow, a clearly
> defined, rational workflow process makes it much easier for authors to
> create their content.
>
> The process that ODFAuthors uses, is based on their experience of
> creating documentation. Some aspects can be exasperating, but on the
> whole even those aspects are beneficial to the content creator.
>
> Keith wrote:
>
> Johnathon;
>
>> If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
> in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them,
>
> What I'm saying, is to look at the history of the project, from the days
> that it was StarOffice. Look at how documentation (both quality and
> quantity) has increased, and decreased over that time, and, more
> importantly where and how it was produced.
>
> To see what is, in effect,an entire documentation team, resign thrice,
> indicates that major issues keep re-ocurring. Furthermore, it can't be
> said that it was the same few people who were unhappy, because at least
> two of those documentation teams had no individuals in common.
> I'm not sure how much, if any overlap, there was between the third of
> those teams, and either of the other two.
>
Jonathon;
Please enlighten us then most omniscient guru. You obviously have
knowledge that the rest of us lack and that may be germane. So far all I
have seen is your need to re-hash the past for your own reasons while
offering no concrete suggestions on how to move us forward from here.
Keith
> jonathon
>
> * English - detected
> * English
>
> * English
>
> <javascript:void(0);>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:05 PM, De Angela Jackson <
deangela.m.jackson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Throwing in another 2 cents (I'm up to 4!):
>
> Why not try to get an objective outside opinion?
>
> http://idratherbewriting.com/ <--pretty good blog from a technical
> writer who wasn't always a technical writer. He might be able to look
> at the whole situation and maybe give some advice and direction if
> asked. Who knows?
>
Previously the documentation project was mainly steered by Sun engineeers.
Specifically Frank Peters and Clayton Cornell
You can see a conference of them in 2007
http://ooocon.kiberpipa.org/media/Doc_next_The_Future_of_the_Documentation_Project/play.html
I have a goog relationship with Clayton and I am sure he could lend a hand
if asked, but for that I would like to see a roadmap that we can follow.
>
>
> De Angela
>
> On 4/30/15, jonathon <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 30/04/15 15:29, Regina Henschel wrote:
> >
> >>And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are
> > so few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
> > follow the changes in LibreOffice soon.
> >
> > I'll grant that ODFAuthors doesn't have many people. Regardless, that
> > point is irrelevant here. (Well, it is relevant, to the point of
> > considering why ODFAuthors isn't actively involved in AOo documentation.)
> >
> >> It is not reasonable to expect that these people care about Apache
> > OpenOffice.
> >
> > Some of the people in ODFAuthors were willing to either write original
> > documentation where needed, and/or modify/adapt LibO documentation to
> > reflect the changes/differences in AOo. Do note the use of the past
> > tense here.
> >
> >> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
> >
> > Then when did most of the ODFAuthors resign from the AOo documentation
> > project?
> >
> > More pointedly, why did the former head of the AOo Documentation project
> > resign? (Need I point out that the wiki page lists that individual as
> > the current head of AOo documentation.)
> >
> >> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And
> when
> >> authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF
> >> Authors.
> >
> > Every organization that creates documentation, has a workflow.
> > Sometimes that workflow is clearly defined, outlined, and includes
> > everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce quality
> > output. Sometimes that workflow is not only not defined, but manages to
> > omit everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce any
> > output.
> >
> > Whilst one can't force authors to follow a specific workflow, a clearly
> > defined, rational workflow process makes it much easier for authors to
> > create their content.
> >
> > The process that ODFAuthors uses, is based on their experience of
> > creating documentation. Some aspects can be exasperating, but on the
> > whole even those aspects are beneficial to the content creator.
> >
> > Keith wrote:
> >
> > Johnathon;
> >
> >>If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
> > in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them,
> >
> > What I'm saying, is to look at the history of the project, from the days
> > that it was StarOffice. Look at how documentation (both quality and
> > quantity) has increased, and decreased over that time, and, more
> > importantly where and how it was produced.
> >
> > To see what is, in effect,an entire documentation team, resign thrice,
> > indicates that major issues keep re-ocurring. Furthermore, it can't be
> > said that it was the same few people who were unhappy, because at least
> > two of those documentation teams had no individuals in common.
> > I'm not sure how much, if any overlap, there was between the third of
> > those teams, and either of the other two.
> >
> > jonathon
> >
> > * English - detected
> > * English
> >
> > * English
> >
> > <javascript:void(0);>
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: doc-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: doc-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by De Angela Jackson <de...@gmail.com>.
Throwing in another 2 cents (I'm up to 4!):
Why not try to get an objective outside opinion?
http://idratherbewriting.com/ <--pretty good blog from a technical
writer who wasn't always a technical writer. He might be able to look
at the whole situation and maybe give some advice and direction if
asked. Who knows?
De Angela
On 4/30/15, jonathon <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30/04/15 15:29, Regina Henschel wrote:
>
>>And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are
> so few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
> follow the changes in LibreOffice soon.
>
> I'll grant that ODFAuthors doesn't have many people. Regardless, that
> point is irrelevant here. (Well, it is relevant, to the point of
> considering why ODFAuthors isn't actively involved in AOo documentation.)
>
>> It is not reasonable to expect that these people care about Apache
> OpenOffice.
>
> Some of the people in ODFAuthors were willing to either write original
> documentation where needed, and/or modify/adapt LibO documentation to
> reflect the changes/differences in AOo. Do note the use of the past
> tense here.
>
>> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
>
> Then when did most of the ODFAuthors resign from the AOo documentation
> project?
>
> More pointedly, why did the former head of the AOo Documentation project
> resign? (Need I point out that the wiki page lists that individual as
> the current head of AOo documentation.)
>
>> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And when
>> authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF
>> Authors.
>
> Every organization that creates documentation, has a workflow.
> Sometimes that workflow is clearly defined, outlined, and includes
> everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce quality
> output. Sometimes that workflow is not only not defined, but manages to
> omit everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce any
> output.
>
> Whilst one can't force authors to follow a specific workflow, a clearly
> defined, rational workflow process makes it much easier for authors to
> create their content.
>
> The process that ODFAuthors uses, is based on their experience of
> creating documentation. Some aspects can be exasperating, but on the
> whole even those aspects are beneficial to the content creator.
>
> Keith wrote:
>
> Johnathon;
>
>>If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
> in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them,
>
> What I'm saying, is to look at the history of the project, from the days
> that it was StarOffice. Look at how documentation (both quality and
> quantity) has increased, and decreased over that time, and, more
> importantly where and how it was produced.
>
> To see what is, in effect,an entire documentation team, resign thrice,
> indicates that major issues keep re-ocurring. Furthermore, it can't be
> said that it was the same few people who were unhappy, because at least
> two of those documentation teams had no individuals in common.
> I'm not sure how much, if any overlap, there was between the third of
> those teams, and either of the other two.
>
> jonathon
>
> * English - detected
> * English
>
> * English
>
> <javascript:void(0);>
>
>
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Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by jonathon <to...@gmail.com>.
On 30/04/15 15:29, Regina Henschel wrote:
>And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are
so few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
follow the changes in LibreOffice soon.
I'll grant that ODFAuthors doesn't have many people. Regardless, that
point is irrelevant here. (Well, it is relevant, to the point of
considering why ODFAuthors isn't actively involved in AOo documentation.)
> It is not reasonable to expect that these people care about Apache
OpenOffice.
Some of the people in ODFAuthors were willing to either write original
documentation where needed, and/or modify/adapt LibO documentation to
reflect the changes/differences in AOo. Do note the use of the past
tense here.
> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
Then when did most of the ODFAuthors resign from the AOo documentation
project?
More pointedly, why did the former head of the AOo Documentation project
resign? (Need I point out that the wiki page lists that individual as
the current head of AOo documentation.)
> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And when authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF Authors.
Every organization that creates documentation, has a workflow.
Sometimes that workflow is clearly defined, outlined, and includes
everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce quality
output. Sometimes that workflow is not only not defined, but manages to
omit everything that the content creator needs, in order to produce any
output.
Whilst one can't force authors to follow a specific workflow, a clearly
defined, rational workflow process makes it much easier for authors to
create their content.
The process that ODFAuthors uses, is based on their experience of
creating documentation. Some aspects can be exasperating, but on the
whole even those aspects are beneficial to the content creator.
Keith wrote:
Johnathon;
>If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them,
What I'm saying, is to look at the history of the project, from the days
that it was StarOffice. Look at how documentation (both quality and
quantity) has increased, and decreased over that time, and, more
importantly where and how it was produced.
To see what is, in effect,an entire documentation team, resign thrice,
indicates that major issues keep re-ocurring. Furthermore, it can't be
said that it was the same few people who were unhappy, because at least
two of those documentation teams had no individuals in common.
I'm not sure how much, if any overlap, there was between the third of
those teams, and either of the other two.
jonathon
* English - detected
* English
* English
<javascript:void(0);>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>
wrote:
> Hi Jonathon,
>
> jonathon schrieb:
>
>> Let's rephrase the question. Do you understand why ODFAuthor's is not
>> creating documentation for specifically for Apache OpenOffice?
>>
>>
> ODF Authors is only the working environment. The website starts with "This
> is a development site for LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice (formerly
> OpenOffice.org) documentation." and they have a directory for Apache
> OpenOffice. It is our decision to use it or not to use it. You cannot blame
> ODF Authors, when we do not use it.
>
> And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are so
> few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot follow
> the changes in LibreOffice soon. It is not reasonable to expect that these
> people care about Apache OpenOffice. It is the duty of the Apache
> OpenOffice community to provide documentations for their users.
>
ODF authors wanted to work with us, but we refused. Basically because we
were under the "not built here" spell of whoever was in charge.
>
> If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
> But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And when
> authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF Authors.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: doc-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: doc-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>.
Hi Jonathon,
jonathon schrieb:
> Let's rephrase the question. Do you understand why ODFAuthor's is not
> creating documentation for specifically for Apache OpenOffice?
>
ODF Authors is only the working environment. The website starts with
"This is a development site for LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice
(formerly OpenOffice.org) documentation." and they have a directory for
Apache OpenOffice. It is our decision to use it or not to use it. You
cannot blame ODF Authors, when we do not use it.
And you cannot blame the people, who write for LibreOffice. There are so
few persons working on LibreOffice documentation, that they cannot
follow the changes in LibreOffice soon. It is not reasonable to expect
that these people care about Apache OpenOffice. It is the duty of the
Apache OpenOffice community to provide documentations for their users.
If we decide to use ODF Authors, it would be possible without problems.
But working with ODF Authors means, to follow a special workflow. And
when authors do not like that workflow, you cannot force them to use ODF
Authors.
Kind regards
Regina
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Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Guy Waterval <wa...@gmail.com>.
Hello Dave,
Hi all,
2015-04-30 9:19 GMT+02:00 Dave <da...@gmail.com>:
> Is it completely unrealistic to ask O'Reilly if they might publish a newer
> version of their book on OpenOffice?
>
The principal issue is to having something under the Apache License and
reusable by the AOO project.
As the author, Jean Hollis Weber (ODF authors), is working for Libroffice,
I have some doubt that she could really do that.
Another possibility could be to let Wikipédia enter in the game, if they
accept to work for such a documentation with a double license,
their own one (CC-BY-SA) and Alv2.0. As I will work for Wikipédia and will
have a face to face meeting next Monday
with a responsable of wikimedia.ch, a swiss association which collaborates
with Wikipedia, I will ask the question.
I would work in the future, if possible, under a double license for all my
works concerning AOO, so I need some clarifications on this point.
--
gw
>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Dave <da...@gmail.com>.
Is it completely unrealistic to ask O'Reilly if they might publish a newer
version of their book on OpenOffice?
On 30 April 2015 at 07:27, jonathon <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30/04/15 02:36, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> > about the current effort to do documentation for version 4 by the
> > project under the Apache license.
>
> What is your proposal to prevent/minimize the odds of a repeat of why
> ODFAuthors no longer is providing documentation for Apache OpenOffice?
>
> jonathon
>
>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Jonathon wrote:
> On 30/04/15 02:36, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>> about the current effort to do documentation for version 4 by the
>> project under the Apache license.
>
> What is your proposal to prevent/minimize the odds of a repeat of why
> ODFAuthors no longer is providing documentation for Apache OpenOffice?
>
> jonathon
>
>
Johnathon;
You seem to be very confused. ODFAuthors has nothing to do with the
version 4 documentation for AOO. That was a choice made by the project
2+ years ago. All version 4 documentation currently is being done on the
m-wiki under Apache 2 license. The state of that effort is all that this
thread is attempting to address.
If you have concrete proposals to avoid what you obviously saw as flaws
in the previous efforts now would be the time to make them, that is what
this thread was meant to engender. However simply re-hashing the past is
counter-productive and adds nothing of substance to the discussion.
Regards
Keith
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by jonathon <to...@gmail.com>.
On 30/04/15 02:36, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> about the current effort to do documentation for version 4 by the
> project under the Apache license.
What is your proposal to prevent/minimize the odds of a repeat of why
ODFAuthors no longer is providing documentation for Apache OpenOffice?
jonathon
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
jonathon wrote:
> On 29/04/15 19:58, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>
>> Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation but the status document has never been updated,
>
> Other than some documentation on the wiki, what has been produced within
> the last two years, that is not currently listed?
>
>
>> I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
>>> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache OpenOffice today.
>
> Let's rephrase the question. Do you understand why ODFAuthor's is not
> creating documentation for specifically for Apache OpenOffice?
>
> jonathon
>
Jonathon yes I do know why. I was involved in the last effort involving
ODFAuthor's. This thread is not about the ODFAuthors documentation, but
about the current effort to do documentation for version 4 by the
project under the Apache license.
Regards
Keith
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by jonathon <to...@gmail.com>.
On 29/04/15 19:58, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation but the status document has never been updated,
Other than some documentation on the wiki, what has been produced within
the last two years, that is not currently listed?
> I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
>> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache OpenOffice today.
Let's rephrase the question. Do you understand why ODFAuthor's is not
creating documentation for specifically for Apache OpenOffice?
jonathon
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
There is a stylesheet and some help files for documentators, we should
review them and update them if possible:
http://documentation.openoffice.org
You would see a wishlist as well as Dashboard:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard
This would need to be discussed how can we refresh it with new information.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 3:13 PM, De Angela Jackson <
deangela.m.jackson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi. Just adding my two cents:
>
> I never knew that you guys had a tracking document. So, maybe it
> doesn't get used because no one knows it's there?
>
> I like Rania's idea of a spreadsheet--something up front where it's
> easily found, and everyone can see what's going on.
>
> I had noticed too that there are a lot of things that one person might
> have started but never completed. Why not hold volunteers to task?
> Have them do only one thing at a time and not start on another until
> the first one is completed and okay'd. This could give the project
> more focus and at least give the appearance of progress.
>
> Of course, people like me are part of the problem too. A lot of
> volunteers really don't know what's going on or what to do, and we
> don't necessarily have the technical writing backgrounds. I don't
> recall ever seeing a rubric of what exactly should be in each section,
> so you kind of leave us bewildered while at the same time lose
> uniformity. Each section should have A, B, C, and D regardless of
> topic, and with a basic rubric there would be less time holding the
> hands of us n00bs.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
>
> De Angela
>
> On 4/29/15, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > jonathon wrote:
> >> On 29/04/15 17:09, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> >>
> > Jonathon;
> >>> We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used so all members
> of
> >>> the team know where things are and what is needed but it rarely gets
> >>> used.
> >>
> >> I'd suggest the tracking document is rarely used, because nobody is
> >> creating documentation.
> >>
> > Not entirely true. Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation
> > but the status document has never been updated, and no mention of the
> > work having been done ever came to the list.
> >>> do we really want to have the documentation done "in house"; and if we
> do
> >>> is the process we started 2+ years ago still the correct way to go?
> >>
> >> How much do you know about documentation, when the project was under the
> >> auspices of Sun, and later Oracle?
> >>
> > I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
> >> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache
> >> OpenOffice today.
> >
> > The former process may have some bearing on the problem, but more recent
> > history also has a great deal to do with it.
> >
> > Regards
> > Keith
> >>
> >> jonathon
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
De Angela Jackson wrote:
> Hi. Just adding my two cents:
>
> I never knew that you guys had a tracking document. So, maybe it
> doesn't get used because no one knows it's there?
If you didn't realize that it was there I apologize. It is referenced in
the main index of the user guide with a link to it and most every reply
I sent to new volunteers had a link to it and the main index for the
User Guide.
>
> I like Rania's idea of a spreadsheet--something up front where it's
> easily found, and everyone can see what's going on.
Just a little history. The reason we went with the status document on
the wiki was that it was in the same place and same format as the User
Guide that was the main focus.
>
> I had noticed too that there are a lot of things that one person might
> have started but never completed. Why not hold volunteers to task?
> Have them do only one thing at a time and not start on another until
> the first one is completed and okay'd. This could give the project
> more focus and at least give the appearance of progress.
One reason is that we do not have the resources for a lot of hand
holding. Another is that people rarely communicated that they were
actually starting something or had run into a roadblock. Another may be
that the concept of a mailing list may be foreign to some people and
they are uncomfortable with them as a communication medium.
>
> Of course, people like me are part of the problem too. A lot of
> volunteers really don't know what's going on or what to do, and we
> don't necessarily have the technical writing backgrounds. I don't
> recall ever seeing a rubric of what exactly should be in each section,
> so you kind of leave us bewildered while at the same time lose
> uniformity. Each section should have A, B, C, and D regardless of
> topic, and with a basic rubric there would be less time holding the
> hands of us n00bs.
We are ALL responsible one way or another. To be quite honest; MOST
volunteers, including myself, do not have the technical writing
background. That is why there is and will continue to be a lack of hand
holding and mentoring that I would like to see and think that we need.
The format that was settled on early on does not lend itself to a
rubrical methodology. The idea was to do small, somewhat self contained,
pieces that were highly cross referenced for people that prefer on-line
perusal and that could also be merged together into book format for
those that prefer printed materials. With that concept it is difficult
to say that all docs must have a, b, c, and d. This is why the mailing
list was envisioned as being the place to communicate and discuss things.
Thank you for your excellent and insightful comments. Hopefully all of
this will generate more concrete discussion on how we should proceed.
Regards
Keith
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
>
> De Angela
>
> On 4/29/15, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> jonathon wrote:
>>> On 29/04/15 17:09, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>>>
>> Jonathon;
>>>> We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used so all members of
>>>> the team know where things are and what is needed but it rarely gets
>>>> used.
>>>
>>> I'd suggest the tracking document is rarely used, because nobody is
>>> creating documentation.
>>>
>> Not entirely true. Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation
>> but the status document has never been updated, and no mention of the
>> work having been done ever came to the list.
>>>> do we really want to have the documentation done "in house"; and if we do
>>>> is the process we started 2+ years ago still the correct way to go?
>>>
>>> How much do you know about documentation, when the project was under the
>>> auspices of Sun, and later Oracle?
>>>
>> I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
>>> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache
>>> OpenOffice today.
>>
>> The former process may have some bearing on the problem, but more recent
>> history also has a great deal to do with it.
>>
>> Regards
>> Keith
>>>
>>> jonathon
>>>
>>
>>
>>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by De Angela Jackson <de...@gmail.com>.
Hi. Just adding my two cents:
I never knew that you guys had a tracking document. So, maybe it
doesn't get used because no one knows it's there?
I like Rania's idea of a spreadsheet--something up front where it's
easily found, and everyone can see what's going on.
I had noticed too that there are a lot of things that one person might
have started but never completed. Why not hold volunteers to task?
Have them do only one thing at a time and not start on another until
the first one is completed and okay'd. This could give the project
more focus and at least give the appearance of progress.
Of course, people like me are part of the problem too. A lot of
volunteers really don't know what's going on or what to do, and we
don't necessarily have the technical writing backgrounds. I don't
recall ever seeing a rubric of what exactly should be in each section,
so you kind of leave us bewildered while at the same time lose
uniformity. Each section should have A, B, C, and D regardless of
topic, and with a basic rubric there would be less time holding the
hands of us n00bs.
Just some thoughts.
De Angela
On 4/29/15, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
> jonathon wrote:
>> On 29/04/15 17:09, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>>
> Jonathon;
>>> We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used so all members of
>>> the team know where things are and what is needed but it rarely gets
>>> used.
>>
>> I'd suggest the tracking document is rarely used, because nobody is
>> creating documentation.
>>
> Not entirely true. Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation
> but the status document has never been updated, and no mention of the
> work having been done ever came to the list.
>>> do we really want to have the documentation done "in house"; and if we do
>>> is the process we started 2+ years ago still the correct way to go?
>>
>> How much do you know about documentation, when the project was under the
>> auspices of Sun, and later Oracle?
>>
> I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
>> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache
>> OpenOffice today.
>
> The former process may have some bearing on the problem, but more recent
> history also has a great deal to do with it.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>>
>> jonathon
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
jonathon wrote:
> On 29/04/15 17:09, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>
Jonathon;
>> We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but it rarely gets used.
>
> I'd suggest the tracking document is rarely used, because nobody is
> creating documentation.
>
Not entirely true. Work has been on certain pieces of the documentation
but the status document has never been updated, and no mention of the
work having been done ever came to the list.
>> do we really want to have the documentation done "in house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the correct way to go?
>
> How much do you know about documentation, when the project was under the
> auspices of Sun, and later Oracle?
>
I know a fair amount about how the documentation was done then.
> That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache
> OpenOffice today.
The former process may have some bearing on the problem, but more recent
history also has a great deal to do with it.
Regards
Keith
>
> jonathon
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by jonathon <to...@gmail.com>.
On 29/04/15 17:09, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but it rarely gets used.
I'd suggest the tracking document is rarely used, because nobody is
creating documentation.
> do we really want to have the documentation done "in house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the correct way to go?
How much do you know about documentation, when the project was under the
auspices of Sun, and later Oracle?
That history has a lot to do with the lack of documentation for Apache
OpenOffice today.
jonathon
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Alexandro Colorado wrote:
Alexandro
> I agree and would like to propose a roadmap that people can follow (hands
> off) and they can continue ongoing work. emphasizing that if they want to
> contribute, they need to self-taught and self-do without waiting for
> approval. We just dont have enough resources for a delegating and approving
> changes.
>
I for one am open to any and all suggestions for a road-map of how to
get this moving again. I agree also that we do not have the resources
for a highly structured delegating and approval style of work, but the
history of this list has shown that a certain level of structure is
necessary so all members know where we are and what needs doing.
> I would want to also understand the better work that we can do in promoting
> the documentation project to the rest of the community. Gamification is a
> way, or just using the blog and social network to recruit technical
> writters.
>
I am not overly familiar with "gamification:", but it sounds like an
interesting approach, can you expand on it a little? We have not done
enough with our blog and social media outlets to promote the
documentation or to recruit much needed talent.
> I also want to know if there is any other idea that can help this project
> get off the ground. And finally build a report for the next apache cycle on
> what has been achieved on this project.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Keith N. McKenna <
> keith.mckenna@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Greetings All;
>>
>> Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
>> list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
>> There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
>> but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
>>
>> There has been some work done on various parts of the Guide, but no real
>> discussion here. We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used
>> so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but
>> it rarely gets used. All of this has to beg the question where are we
>> with documentation; do we really want to have the documentation done "in
>> house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the
>> correct way to go?
>>
>> I for one firmly believe that not having up to date user documentation
>> reflects poorly on the project as a whole. It is time for us to take a
>> hard look at what we want to do and come together and try to move
>> forward either with what we have or by starting over and re-defining
>> what we want and the process to get there. Either that our we have to
>> decide that we are just not in a position to this piece and fold. I hope
>> that it is not the later.
>>
>> Respectfully
>> Keith N. McKenna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Rania Hanna wrote:
> Quick thought, though I am new here:
>
> Have a wiki or some sort of spreadsheet that lists everything that needs to
> get done, as well as those who say they will get this or that done in xx
> amount of time. So sort of like a timesheet, where people state what they
> did, as in, what they contributed, and when, and "sign off" on their own
> work. I realize you have a tracking doc, and I'm not sure how that works,
> as I never saw it.
>
> But maybe someone can compile an action-item list, and then people can
> decide and take ownership of a specific project, and we could then
> implement that spreadsheet. I think setting goals is a good thing, like
> have some sort of goal graph, that lists, percentage-wise, how far we have
> come, how far we need to go. And have that for the project as a whole, and
> also for individuals, in terms of how much they say they will do, and how
> much they actually do.
>
> I think key is providing some internal motivations. Mostly, though,
> organization is needed, so that people know what needs to be done, and in
> what priority.
>
> Maybe a person can volunteer as organizer/manager, and that's their role
> only.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org> wrote:
>
>> I agree and would like to propose a roadmap that people can follow (hands
>> off) and they can continue ongoing work. emphasizing that if they want to
>> contribute, they need to self-taught and self-do without waiting for
>> approval. We just dont have enough resources for a delegating and approving
>> changes.
>>
>> I would want to also understand the better work that we can do in promoting
>> the documentation project to the rest of the community. Gamification is a
>> way, or just using the blog and social network to recruit technical
>> writters.
>>
>> I also want to know if there is any other idea that can help this project
>> get off the ground. And finally build a report for the next apache cycle on
>> what has been achieved on this project.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Keith N. McKenna <
>> keith.mckenna@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings All;
>>>
>>> Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
>>> list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
>>> There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
>>> but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
>>>
>>> There has been some work done on various parts of the Guide, but no real
>>> discussion here. We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used
>>> so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but
>>> it rarely gets used. All of this has to beg the question where are we
>>> with documentation; do we really want to have the documentation done "in
>>> house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the
>>> correct way to go?
>>>
>>> I for one firmly believe that not having up to date user documentation
>>> reflects poorly on the project as a whole. It is time for us to take a
>>> hard look at what we want to do and come together and try to move
>>> forward either with what we have or by starting over and re-defining
>>> what we want and the process to get there. Either that our we have to
>>> decide that we are just not in a position to this piece and fold. I hope
>>> that it is not the later.
>>>
>>> Respectfully
>>> Keith N. McKenna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexandro Colorado
>> Apache OpenOffice Contributor
>> 882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
>>
>
Rania;
Glad to see that you subscribed to the list. Here is a link to the
status/tracking document on the wiki:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Status. Anyone
can read it, but to make any changes you need to request an account.
Just send an e-mail to the list with your prefered e-mail address and
prefered user name and myself or one of the other admins will create the
account. Unfortunately we had to stop self registration to the m-wkik as
it was allowing generation of unacceptable levels of spam.
If you have any comments or suggestions on how to improve the status
document this would be the place to discuss them.
Regards
Keith
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Rania Hanna <rh...@gmail.com>.
Quick thought, though I am new here:
Have a wiki or some sort of spreadsheet that lists everything that needs to
get done, as well as those who say they will get this or that done in xx
amount of time. So sort of like a timesheet, where people state what they
did, as in, what they contributed, and when, and "sign off" on their own
work. I realize you have a tracking doc, and I'm not sure how that works,
as I never saw it.
But maybe someone can compile an action-item list, and then people can
decide and take ownership of a specific project, and we could then
implement that spreadsheet. I think setting goals is a good thing, like
have some sort of goal graph, that lists, percentage-wise, how far we have
come, how far we need to go. And have that for the project as a whole, and
also for individuals, in terms of how much they say they will do, and how
much they actually do.
I think key is providing some internal motivations. Mostly, though,
organization is needed, so that people know what needs to be done, and in
what priority.
Maybe a person can volunteer as organizer/manager, and that's their role
only.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org> wrote:
> I agree and would like to propose a roadmap that people can follow (hands
> off) and they can continue ongoing work. emphasizing that if they want to
> contribute, they need to self-taught and self-do without waiting for
> approval. We just dont have enough resources for a delegating and approving
> changes.
>
> I would want to also understand the better work that we can do in promoting
> the documentation project to the rest of the community. Gamification is a
> way, or just using the blog and social network to recruit technical
> writters.
>
> I also want to know if there is any other idea that can help this project
> get off the ground. And finally build a report for the next apache cycle on
> what has been achieved on this project.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Keith N. McKenna <
> keith.mckenna@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Greetings All;
> >
> > Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
> > list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
> > There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
> > but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
> >
> > There has been some work done on various parts of the Guide, but no real
> > discussion here. We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used
> > so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but
> > it rarely gets used. All of this has to beg the question where are we
> > with documentation; do we really want to have the documentation done "in
> > house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the
> > correct way to go?
> >
> > I for one firmly believe that not having up to date user documentation
> > reflects poorly on the project as a whole. It is time for us to take a
> > hard look at what we want to do and come together and try to move
> > forward either with what we have or by starting over and re-defining
> > what we want and the process to get there. Either that our we have to
> > decide that we are just not in a position to this piece and fold. I hope
> > that it is not the later.
> >
> > Respectfully
> > Keith N. McKenna
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> Apache OpenOffice Contributor
> 882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
>
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
I agree and would like to propose a roadmap that people can follow (hands
off) and they can continue ongoing work. emphasizing that if they want to
contribute, they need to self-taught and self-do without waiting for
approval. We just dont have enough resources for a delegating and approving
changes.
I would want to also understand the better work that we can do in promoting
the documentation project to the rest of the community. Gamification is a
way, or just using the blog and social network to recruit technical
writters.
I also want to know if there is any other idea that can help this project
get off the ground. And finally build a report for the next apache cycle on
what has been achieved on this project.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Keith N. McKenna <
keith.mckenna@comcast.net> wrote:
> Greetings All;
>
> Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
> list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
> There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
> but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
>
> There has been some work done on various parts of the Guide, but no real
> discussion here. We have a tracking document that is supposed to be used
> so all members of the team know where things are and what is needed but
> it rarely gets used. All of this has to beg the question where are we
> with documentation; do we really want to have the documentation done "in
> house"; and if we do is the process we started 2+ years ago still the
> correct way to go?
>
> I for one firmly believe that not having up to date user documentation
> reflects poorly on the project as a whole. It is time for us to take a
> hard look at what we want to do and come together and try to move
> forward either with what we have or by starting over and re-defining
> what we want and the process to get there. Either that our we have to
> decide that we are just not in a position to this piece and fold. I hope
> that it is not the later.
>
> Respectfully
> Keith N. McKenna
>
>
>
>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9 5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614
Re: Where are we with the documentation?
Posted by Guy Waterval <wa...@gmail.com>.
Hi Keith,
2015-04-29 19:09 GMT+02:00 Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net>:
> Greetings All;
>
> Just checked the archives and it is just shy of 2.5 years since this
> list was started and what do we have to show for it? Basically nothing.
> There are pieces and sections of guides in various stages of completion,
> but nothing anywhere near ready for final publication.
>
Do you have this one (hybrid PDF) about Base (double license cc-by-sa and
ALv2.0) ?
http://www.softenpoche.com/docs/base.pdf
Regards
--
gw
>
>