Re: [OT] modperl vs. Ruby

[Harry Zhu <ha...@greatlodge.com>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan" <jv...@2xlp.com>
To: "mod_perl List" <mo...@perl.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] modperl vs. Ruby


> 
> there's been a popular link critiquing rails floating around
> 
> http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.309321.3
> 
> personally, I hate rails.   i'm seeing a lot of colleagues adopt it,  
> with a combination of this reasoning:
> it 'sucks less than php' ( from someone with a php book )
> its perfect for doing small sites regardless of traffic
> remember, there are 2 types of scaling :
> a- lots of users / content
> b- lots of hits
> rails can scale on b reasonably well behind lighty w/fcgi.  just  
> loadbalance and toss server after server into a cluster.
> the bulk of its use is design shop stuff
> 
> but all my colleagues/friends work for design shops
> 
> not to knock rails, but the biggest project they've been implemented  
> with , as far as i can tell, is odeo. lots of other projects are done  
> in it, but none that scale in use and content like that one, and it  
> doesn't really impress me.  there could  be something else out there,  
> but i've yet to see it.  all the projects i've seen done on it are  
> blogs, small sharing apps, design agency stuff, etc.  it does that  
> stuff really well and really fast, but there's no breadth to it.   
> AFAIK the big blog implementation service that touts rails is run as  
> multiple installations each behind their own lighty instance with  
> fcgi support.
> 
> this fall, I quit my FT job to start an online sharing / syndication  
> service that will hopefully go live within the month.
> 
> i evaluated a ton of frameworks and languages, here's how i felt:
> 
> ruby - rails was getting all the hype. i tried rails and had a  
> webapp running in minutes.  it was a sheer pleasure as promised.   
> except rails couldn't do what i wanted to do for my project.  it was  
> way to strict. its made for building a certain type of application -  
> not every application.
> c - would have been the fastest to run and scale the best.   
> nightmare to write.
> php - i found it a nightmare to maintain code and enforce MVC, and i  
> intensely dislike the model of everything essentially being a cgi  
> script.  i wanted everything compiled into the server, as i'm running  
> a single service, not 20 differentn projects for 20 clients like I  
> managed at my old design agency.
> python - the spec on the  twisted framework kept changing.  django  
> was too Rail's-ish in scope.  turbogears didn't exist yet, but also a  
> bit too rails-ish for me.
> perl - i don't like template toolkit or mason.  i know many do.  i  
> just don't.  they're both very perlish in the templates.  catalyst  
> wasn't really around yet - maypole was, but also too rails ish.
> 
> i ended up building my own MVC 'framework' under mp2.  i get all the  
> speed and server integration that I wanted.   i'm tossing framework  
> in quotes, because everything is too built-into my app.  i'd love to  
> pull it out and release it, but its not there yet.  it basically just  
> does url dispatching to perl modules + session control in a  
> standardized manner, and has an abstracted api for content  
> rendering.    all html pages are written TAL, because I  use python  
> to prototype objects and methods and handle admin tasks.  this lets  
> me use the same exact templates for prototyping.    one might  think  
> that perl or ruby is fast/easy to write - well (for me)python is a  
> fraction of it -- and program/test in python than port to mod_perl is  
> way faster (again for me than ) doing everything in mod_perl.
> 
> i think the reasons why rails gets so much hype are this:
> it makes building a certain type of project easy.  those projects  
> are 'popular' as are the companies building them.  so when people  
> talk about it, others listen.
> its gaining a lot of ground w/newcomers to web building, as its easy  
> and intuitive.  so more people talk about it.
> it converts a lot of people from .NET or java, who hear the hype and  
> give it a shot.  truth be told, they find it a dream.  who wouldn't  
> after that conversion?
> 
> so depending on what  you're building, RoR may be the best framework  
> for you, or a complete nightmare.  its certainly not the jack-of-all- 
> trades, and neither is catalyst.  using any framework or language,  
> your milage WILL vary compared to others.
> 
> 
> On Feb 25, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Mark Galbreath wrote:
> 
>> which then begs the question, why RoR and not Catalyst?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006
> 
>

Re: [OT] modperl vs. Ruby

[Harry Zhu <ha...@greatlodge.com>]

Sorry, it's an accident to reply to the list.

Harry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Zhu" <ha...@greatlodge.com>
To: "Jonathan" <jv...@2xlp.com>; "mod_perl List" 
<mo...@perl.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] modperl vs. Ruby


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jonathan" <jv...@2xlp.com>
> To: "mod_perl List" <mo...@perl.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] modperl vs. Ruby
>
>
>>
>> there's been a popular link critiquing rails floating around
>>
>> http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.309321.3
>>
>> personally, I hate rails.   i'm seeing a lot of colleagues adopt it, 
>> with a combination of this reasoning:
>> it 'sucks less than php' ( from someone with a php book )
>> its perfect for doing small sites regardless of traffic
>> remember, there are 2 types of scaling :
>> a- lots of users / content
>> b- lots of hits
>> rails can scale on b reasonably well behind lighty w/fcgi.  just 
>> loadbalance and toss server after server into a cluster.
>> the bulk of its use is design shop stuff
>>
>> but all my colleagues/friends work for design shops
>>
>> not to knock rails, but the biggest project they've been implemented 
>> with , as far as i can tell, is odeo. lots of other projects are done  in 
>> it, but none that scale in use and content like that one, and it  doesn't 
>> really impress me.  there could  be something else out there,  but i've 
>> yet to see it.  all the projects i've seen done on it are  blogs, small 
>> sharing apps, design agency stuff, etc.  it does that  stuff really well 
>> and really fast, but there's no breadth to it.   AFAIK the big blog 
>> implementation service that touts rails is run as  multiple installations 
>> each behind their own lighty instance with  fcgi support.
>>
>> this fall, I quit my FT job to start an online sharing / syndication 
>> service that will hopefully go live within the month.
>>
>> i evaluated a ton of frameworks and languages, here's how i felt:
>>
>> ruby - rails was getting all the hype. i tried rails and had a  webapp 
>> running in minutes.  it was a sheer pleasure as promised.   except rails 
>> couldn't do what i wanted to do for my project.  it was  way to strict. 
>> its made for building a certain type of application -  not every 
>> application.
>> c - would have been the fastest to run and scale the best.   nightmare to 
>> write.
>> php - i found it a nightmare to maintain code and enforce MVC, and i 
>> intensely dislike the model of everything essentially being a cgi 
>> script.  i wanted everything compiled into the server, as i'm running  a 
>> single service, not 20 differentn projects for 20 clients like I  managed 
>> at my old design agency.
>> python - the spec on the  twisted framework kept changing.  django  was 
>> too Rail's-ish in scope.  turbogears didn't exist yet, but also a  bit 
>> too rails-ish for me.
>> perl - i don't like template toolkit or mason.  i know many do.  i  just 
>> don't.  they're both very perlish in the templates.  catalyst  wasn't 
>> really around yet - maypole was, but also too rails ish.
>>
>> i ended up building my own MVC 'framework' under mp2.  i get all the 
>> speed and server integration that I wanted.   i'm tossing framework  in 
>> quotes, because everything is too built-into my app.  i'd love to  pull 
>> it out and release it, but its not there yet.  it basically just  does 
>> url dispatching to perl modules + session control in a  standardized 
>> manner, and has an abstracted api for content  rendering.    all html 
>> pages are written TAL, because I  use python  to prototype objects and 
>> methods and handle admin tasks.  this lets  me use the same exact 
>> templates for prototyping.    one might  think  that perl or ruby is 
>> fast/easy to write - well (for me)python is a  fraction of it -- and 
>> program/test in python than port to mod_perl is  way faster (again for me 
>> than ) doing everything in mod_perl.
>>
>> i think the reasons why rails gets so much hype are this:
>> it makes building a certain type of project easy.  those projects  are 
>> 'popular' as are the companies building them.  so when people  talk about 
>> it, others listen.
>> its gaining a lot of ground w/newcomers to web building, as its easy  and 
>> intuitive.  so more people talk about it.
>> it converts a lot of people from .NET or java, who hear the hype and 
>> give it a shot.  truth be told, they find it a dream.  who wouldn't 
>> after that conversion?
>>
>> so depending on what  you're building, RoR may be the best framework  for 
>> you, or a complete nightmare.  its certainly not the jack-of-all- trades, 
>> and neither is catalyst.  using any framework or language,  your milage 
>> WILL vary compared to others.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Mark Galbreath wrote:
>>
>>> which then begs the question, why RoR and not Catalyst?
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
>
>